OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Archeoaevis]

Well, this situation got a lot worse pretty fast.

[Resileaf]

Incoming bad things!

[jdb-44]

I like how the speech bubbles are artfully placed to block all of the swirly eyes until the last panel!

[Quebbster]

The Ex-Arch seems to have kept himself busy I see, no wonder they couldn't spare him for the big battle scene. Guess we have some way left to go Before this is over...

[Yirggzmb]

Eep, watch out cranky mom dwarf!

[Potatopeelerkin]

She's only existed for a page and I already love this long-suffering daughter. She's obviously heard this a thousand times before. I will tentatively put her in my "second favourite dwarf" spot for now.

First place is, of course, always reserved for Sigdi.

I don't like that the guards have already been dominated. I hope she survives long enough to become important.

[Lord Torath]

Ah, the ubiquitous fussing of the elderly! In other news, Get Off My Lawn, Ya Danged Whippersnappers!

I really like the design of the Council building. Pretty sweet!

Thanks, Rich!

[warmachine]

As OotS knows the purpose of the vampire's invasion, this leads to the question of why they bothered with Thor's temple. They could have moved to the real target and wait for Durkula's party to come to them.

[Peelee]

I like how the guards' eyes were hidden until the final panel reveal. I never noticed tiny details like that before I started this comic

As OotS knows the purpose of the vampire's invasion, this leads to the question of why they bothered with Thor's temple. They could have moved to the real target and wait for Durkula's party to come to them.

Hubris.

[hamishspence]

Looks like Hel's plans are still progressing - Durkula's destruction doesn't seem to have put much of a crimp in them.

[Millstone85]

Should it be obvious what that monster is?

My first thought was an invisible stalker, but I guess a vampire in mist form would make more sense.

[factotum]

As OotS knows the purpose of the vampire's invasion, this leads to the question of why they bothered with Thor's temple. They could have moved to the real target and wait for Durkula's party to come to them.

And could they have effectively protected the clan elders while fighting off a bunch of vampires? The "divide and conquer" approach they took actually worked out quite well for them in the end.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As OotS knows the purpose of the vampire's invasion, this leads to the question of why they bothered with Thor's temple. They could have moved to the real target and wait for Durkula's party to come to them.

Recruits? Whatever comes next, I'm sure it would have been a lot easier with 1) no OotS incoming and b) a gross of vampires, rather than just a couple.


Should it be obvious what that monster is?
It's the Exexarch.

Grey Wolf

[Elanasaurus]

Once the elders have been dominated, can the vampires just go and hide somewhere until the world is destroyed?

[Peelee]

Should it be obvious what that monster is?

My first thought was an invisible stalker, but I guess a vampire in mist form would make more sense.

It's the vamped exarch, formerly known as Gontor, yes. He's also represented similarly to vampires in nistfirm previously.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Once the elders have been dominated, can the vampires just go and hide somewhere until the world is destroyed?

We don't have access to the rules of the voting process, so we can't know the answer. It is entirely possible that dominating them won't be enough, so instead they need to, say, kill all but one, and then stand menacingly so they vote the right way.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Bytheway, seems like a good time to double down on my theory that Durkon's destruction is going to be the roof. The elder just mentioned how close they are to the surface.

Also, I like how she can't even think of something better to do, she's just sure that if she thought about it she'd be able to find something better to do. The epitome of complaining for complaining's sake. Love it.

[Resileaf]

Once the elders have been dominated, can the vampires just go and hide somewhere until the world is destroyed?

It's possible to break a vampire's domination of someone. V can dispel (and I think Durkon can too), which means the Ex-arch still needs to keep an eye on his thralls.

[schmunzel]

It's possible to break a vampire's domination of someone. V can dispel (and I think Durkon can too), which means the Ex-arch still needs to keep an eye on his thralls.

I still try to think of ways an Allosaurus can beak said enchantments


Bytheway, seems like a good time to double down on my theory that Durkon's destruction is going to be the roof. The elder just mentioned how close they are to the surface.

Also, I like how she can't even think of something better to do, she's just sure that if she thought about it she'd be able to find something better to do. The epitome of complaining for complaining's sake. Love it.

for example

sch

[Coyote0715]

None of the elders can be vamped without the spell that speeds up the process. Do any of the vamps left have it?

[i6uuaq]

Oh goody, looks like we've jumped straight to the action.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

None of the elders can be vamped without the spell that speeds up the process. Do any of the vamps left have it?

Being dead also probably means that you no longer are a clan elder and that your title passes on to your legal heir. Even if you are still capable of speech. So vamping them would not be helpful except in delaying the vote.

But no, as far as I know, they don't have the sped up vampirification anymore. It probably died with Greg.

Grey Wolf

[Elanasaurus]

We don't have access to the rules of the voting process, so we can't know the answer. It is entirely possible that dominating them won't be enough, so instead they need to, say, kill all but one, and then stand menacingly so they vote the right way.

Grey Wolf Oh, okay. Thanks! I'd just thought that domination would be enough because Gontor only said that they'd dominate the elders. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html)
It's possible to break a vampire's domination of someone. V can dispel (and I think Durkon can too), which means the Ex-arch still needs to keep an eye on his thralls.Thanks! That seems to be a good reason to stay, too.

[Peelee]

None of the elders can be vamped without the spell that speeds up the process. Do any of the vamps left have it?

Probably not; of they could, why not do that to the guards instead of Dominating them?

Also, new guess, the people on the walls are old Drawf kings and Queens, not gods like I initially thought.

[deuterio12]

Damn, the dwarf supernatural safety measures plain suck if vampires can just waltz in such an important place.

How did they exactly survive so long without some other random vampire just taking over?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Damn, the dwarf supernatural safety measures plain suck if vampires can just waltz in such an important place.

How did they exactly survive so long without some other random vampire just taking over?

Clerics. In temples that vampires cannot breach.

And why would the meeting place that is not part of the dwarven government have any kind of defences against vampires? They are really rare. Beside, the place is barely used (once "every few years" as per the current strip)

Grey Wolf

[Ganbatte]

I still fail to see how this plan is gonna work, like, at all.

Case 1, they kill and vamp all the elders who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of "yes" from undead vampire dwarves matching Hel's affiliation. Huh.
Case 2, they dominate them all who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of highly questionable "yes" that would doom the entire dwarven race and doesn't even bother to scry down for a second to make sure no foul play is at hand. Huh.

Hopefully there'll be some twist or reveal to make this more believable, because as of now it seems like the bad guy's plan relies heavily on the Idiot Ball trope for it to work.

[schmunzel]

Gontor (or the other Vampire I dont know) just gave himself away to them. So thay will get killed next frame (or dominated ( or any combination of that)).
or well psychologically enticed

so how will this play out??


sch

[endiku]

Dun dun dun dun!

Do I see red swirly eyes under the helmet? Why yes, yes I do :smallsmile:

Thanks Giant!

[Peelee]

Damn, the dwarf supernatural safety measures plain suck if vampires can just waltz in such an important place.

How did they exactly survive so long without some other random vampire just taking over?

Vampires are rare, and the ones that existed to date have never had reason to interfere in a vote to affect the decision of a demigod who only occasionally even needs to cast a vote in a secret meeting that 99.999....% of mortals never know about.

It's really not farfetched.

[Ivrytwr]

Oh, no! Look out Mother they're right behind you!
Thanks Giant.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

it seems like the bad guy's plan relies heavily on the Idiot Ball trope for it to work.

No, it simply means you are jumping to conclusions.

Grey Wolf

[GregTD]

On the plus side, they won't be killing her

[schmunzel]

I still fail to see how this plan is gonna work, like, at all.

Case 1, they kill and vamp all the elders who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of "yes" from undead vampire dwarves matching Hel's affiliation. Huh.
Case 2, they dominate them all who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of highly questionable "yes" that would doom the entire dwarven race and doesn't even bother to scry down for a second to make sure no foul play is at hand. Huh.

Hopefully there'll be some twist or reveal to make this more believable, because as of now it seems like the bad guy's plan relies heavily on the Idiot Ball trope for it to work.

"You cast that vote and I wont kill your daughter.
deal????"

how about that??

sch

[GregTD]

As OotS knows the purpose of the vampire's invasion, this leads to the question of why they bothered with Thor's temple. They could have moved to the real target and wait for Durkula's party to come to them.

Because so long as the bad guys are just dominating people, the harm they're doing can be easily reversed.

Get to full strength, THEN attack.

As for "why didn't they go to the Council in the first place?" Because having your enemy divide his forces makes a good time to whittle him down. Especially if you can attack the enemy in a place where there are no innocent victims around.

Which makes going after Greg's forces far away from the Council building the right choice.

[137beth]

Vampiric irony! Aside from dominating the dwarves though, I'm not sure what other tricks the vamps have up their sleeves.

[Rrmcklin]

Vampires are rare, and the ones that existed to date have never had reason to interfere in a vote to affect the decision of a demigod who only occasionally even needs to cast a vote in a secret meeting that 99.999....% of mortals never know about.

It's really not farfetched.

Basically. It's something we, as the audience, think about because we know it's actually happening, but nothing about this situation (or something similar) should be taken as likely enough to warrant particularly strong protections.

[SilverCacaobean]

Close to the surface? The theory about Durkon finding a way to expose the Vampires to sunlight sounds more and more likely.

[GregTD]

I still fail to see how this plan is gonna work, like, at all.

Case 1, they kill and vamp all the elders who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of "yes" from undead vampire dwarves matching Hel's affiliation. Huh.
Case 2, they dominate them all who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of highly questionable "yes" that would doom the entire dwarven race and doesn't even bother to scry down for a second to make sure no foul play is at hand. Huh.

Hopefully there'll be some twist or reveal to make this more believable, because as of now it seems like the bad guy's plan relies heavily on the Idiot Ball trope for it to work.

What part of "the Dwarf God swore an oath to abide by the votes of the Clan Council (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html)" did you miss?

[Rrmcklin]

What part of "the Dwarf God swore an oath to abide by the votes of the Clan Council (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html)" did you miss?

I assume the part where Davlin isn't assumed to be stupid enough to go by the votes of a bunch of obviously dominated dwarves that aren't thinking for themselves.

Now, my first thought would be "there are certain facts about the plan that we don't know", but "how will this work" is still a valid thing to wonder about.

[GregTD]

I assume the part where Davlin isn't assumed to be stupid enough to go by the votes of a bunch of obviously dominated dwarves that aren't thinking for themselves.

Now, my first thought would be "there are certain facts about the plan that we don't know", but "how will this work" is still a valid thing to wonder about.

Did you even look at the comic before "responding"?

[Elanasaurus]

Vampiric irony! Aside from dominating the dwarves though, I'm not sure what other tricks the vamps have up their sleeves.They could use violence! And threats of violence, as already mentioned here.

[Peelee]

I assume the part where Davlin isn't assumed to be stupid enough to go by the votes of a bunch of obviously dominated dwarves that aren't thinking for themselves.

One could assume that Dvalin would immediately stop Hel's plan to begin with, going by that logic. It's not a matter of intelligence. He has to do things a certain way. He's the one who specifically set things up that way. It's not stupidity, it's being hoisted on one's own petard.

[Verappo]

She's only existed for a page and I already love this long-suffering daughter. She's obviously heard this a thousand times before. I will tentatively put her in my "second favourite dwarf" category for now.



In my mind, long-suffering daughter is basically the dwarven equivalent of O'chul in that her and Roy have never met before, but he would still feel an "odd, spiritual kinship" with her

[Elanasaurus]

One could assume that Dvalin wouldn't immediately condemn nearly all dwarves to Hel to begin with, going by that logic. It's not a matter of intelligence. He has to do things a certain way. He's the one who specifically set things up that way. It's not stupidity, it's being hoisted on one's own petard.I think it's one thing to obey the will of the Council, and another thing to decide their fate for himself. The question is whether the vampires' votes count as "the will of the Council".

[Aveline]

Close to the surface? The theory about Durkon finding a way to expose the Vampires to sunlight sounds more and more likely.

Ooh! Ooh! I like this a lot.

Durkon uses the Hammer of Loki Sucks to collapse the roof and shine light on the remaining vampires, poetically mirroring Tenrin's sacrifice.

[Rrmcklin]

One could assume that Dvalin wouldn't immediately condemn nearly all dwarves to Hel to begin with, going by that logic. It's not a matter of intelligence. He has to do things a certain way. He's the one who specifically set things up that way. It's not stupidity, it's being hoisted on one's own petard.

I mean, I think there's a pretty clear distinction between asking someone's opinion/vote even when their answer is likely to be obvious, and going "well, these people are clearly mind-controlled by a malicious third party, but it still counts as their voice".

[Larre Gannd]

In my mind, long-suffering daughter is basically the dwarven equivalent of O'chul in that her and Roy have never met before, but he would still feel an "odd, spiritual kinship" with her

I mean, Roy has never been slow to state his opinions, except when it comes to Paladins.

[DuoRogue]

Oh right, this is an issue that needs solving. WHOOPS

[Aveline]

Did you even look at the comic before "responding"?

Did you?

The comic says he swore an oath to obey the will of the council, and if the elders are dominated then their votes do not reflect their will.

[Keltest]

One could assume that Dvalin would immediately stop Hel's plan to begin with, going by that logic. It's not a matter of intelligence. He has to do things a certain way. He's the one who specifically set things up that way. It's not stupidity, it's being hoisted on one's own petard.

Dvalin presumably cares about the legitimacy of the vote. To that end, the idea that he would accept a "yes" vote at face value strains credulity.

[schmunzel]

She's only existed for a page and I already love this long-suffering daughter. She's obviously heard this a thousand times before. I will tentatively put her in my "second favourite dwarf" category for now.
<snip>

Who else is in there ??


Ooh! Ooh! I like this a lot.

Durkon uses the Hammer of Loki Sucks to collapse the roof and shine light on the remaining vampires, poetically mirroring Tenrin's sacrifice.

Buy burying a lot of other (presumably) innocent dwarves under said rubble with arms of their loved ones still firmly grasped???

sch

[Rrmcklin]

Did you even look at the comic before "responding"?

1) Unnecessarily rude, and putting response in quotes means nothing here.

2) Yes, I've read the strip. It still says nothing about the actual issue people are having. If Davlin is actually going to go "vampires dominating them and making them say something still counts" then, yes, that is ridiculous and I understand being annoyed with it. I just assume there's more to it than that that we haven't been filled in on yet.

[Fyraltari]

As OotS knows the purpose of the vampire's invasion, this leads to the question of why they bothered with Thor's temple. They could have moved to the real target and wait for Durkula's party to come to them.
The vampire bothered because Durkon* wanted an ironic place to kill Roy inside of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html) (plus more vampires) and probably wanted to kill him in person. The Order went to the temple because it was their only way into the city. They attacked Durkon* rather than go to the council chamber because they didn't know he had sent vampires ahead and they didn't want to give him a chance to kill more people (I think).


Bytheway, seems like a good time to double down on my theory that Durkon's destruction is going to be the roof. The elder just mentioned how close they are to the surface.
You know, I just realize that it makes a whole lot of sense for Firmament (meaning sky) to be the highest city of the Dwarven Lands and the seat of the Priest of Thor: Thor is a sky god.



Also, I like how she can't even think of something better to do, she's just sure that if she thought about it she'd be able to find something better to do. The epitome of complaining for complaining's sake. Love it.
Dwarves live monger, that means they have more practice at being old.

None of the elders can be vamped without the spell that speeds up the process. Do any of the vamps left have it?
Yes, probably. Two of the Creeders prepared (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html) the ambush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1101.html) and it's later confirmed that it meant accelarating vampires (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1124.html). One of these two is with the Ex-Exarch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html) and it seems reasonable that he preapared the spell as well. Dominating these guartds insteas of vamping them was probably to avoid giving it away to the Elders.


Vampiric irony! Aside from dominating the dwarves though, I'm not sure what other tricks the vamps have up their sleeves.
That's the point don't you think?

[Peelee]

I think it's one thing to obey the will of the Council, and another thing to decide their fate for himself. The question is whether the vampires' votes count as "the will of the Council".


I mean, I think there's a pretty clear distinction between asking someone's opinion/vote even when their answer is likely to be obvious, and going "well, these people are clearly mind-controlled by a malicious third party, but it still counts as their voice".


Dvalin presumably cares about the legitimacy of the vote. To that end, the idea that he would accept a "yes" vote at face value strains credulity.

Assume that Dvalin does find out. He still doesn't know the actual will of the council, and we're right back to "welp he just decides himself." Which is the one thing we know he won't do, and I highly doubt the plot will move towards "well we'll just wait until we get a good council vote."

[Aveline]

Buy burying a lot of other (presumably) innocent dwarves under said rubble with arms of their loved ones still firmly grasped???

sch

He could do it safely, if they are near enough to the surface. There's only two actual vampires so only a small patch of sun is needed. It would still be a poetic reflection.

[SilverCacaobean]

I mean, I think there's a pretty clear distinction between asking someone's opinion/vote even when their answer is likely to be obvious, and going "well, these people are clearly mind-controlled by a malicious third party, but it still counts as their voice".

The point is that Dvalin isn't the final arbiter of their decision in any way, so he is probably unable to nullify just like that. He must have set up some rules that he is bound to follow for this procedure, and even though I'm not sure what exactly the vampires will do, they must have a way of subverting said rules.

[GregTD]

Dvalin presumably cares about the legitimacy of the vote. To that end, the idea that he would accept a "yes" vote at face value strains credulity.

Well, congratulations! you don't need to feel any dramatic tension, because you "know" exactly what Dvalin will do even if Hel's plan is carried out perfectly!

Cool! So you can kick back, watch, and enjoy the artwork, while the rest of us can follow the plot.

Looks like a great deal for everyone involved, no?

[Rrmcklin]

Assume that Dvalin does find out. He still doesn't know the actual will of the council, and we're right back to "welp he just decides himself." Which is the one thing we know he won't do, and I highly doubt the plot will move towards "well we'll just wait until we get a good council vote."

That is an interesting point I suppose - he might not actually meet them in person. But then that leaves the question of why dominate the Council instead of just killing all of them and send the vote without anyone knowing?

And if he does meet them in person him not being able to tell would be ridiculous unless the swirly eye effect isn't visible to the characters. But I see no reason to think that. So it kind of seems like you're admitting there's no way this does make sense.

Because while exploiting archaic rules and loophole abuse can go so far, eventually the audience is going to start calling bull**** on things.


The point is that Dvalin isn't the final arbiter of their decision in any way, so he is probably unable to nullify just like that. He must have set up some rules that he is bound to follow for this procedure, and even though I'm not sure what exactly the vampires will do, they must have a way of subverting said rules.

How many times am I going to have to say I think there's more to this? I'm responding to the idea that "what, sure he'll tell they're dominated but it won't matter" and why some people (myself included) would have an issue with that. I don't think that's going to be the case, but if it is, it's perfectly understandable to dislike it.

[Peelee]

You know, I just realize that it makes a whole lot of sense for Firmament (meaning sky) to be the highest city of the Dwarven Lands and the seat of the Priest of Thor: Thor is a sky god.
The theory strengthens! Come one come all, to Peelee's Church of the Sudden Skylight!

Yes, probably. Two of the Creeders prepared (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html) the ambush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1101.html) and it's later confirmed that it meant accelarating vampires (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1124.html). One of these two is with the Ex-Exarch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html) and it seems reasonable that he preapared the spell as well. Dominating these guartds insteas of vamping them was probably to avoid giving it away to the Elders.

Coungerargument: Only the head vamp had the spell, and spamming it like he did nearly drained his slots, explaining his lack of involvement in the big battle.

[schmunzel]

He could do it safely, if they are near enough to the surface. There's only two actual vampires so only a small patch of sun is needed. It would still be a poetic reflection.

The Vampires probably will contest that thats doable in a safe way :)
My guess is that thats the Extreme Inators job ( thats who he was, wasnt it???)

sch

[Resileaf]

Coungerargument: Only the head vamp had the spell, and spamming it like he did nearly drained his slots, explaining his lack of involvement in the big battle.

Female vampire does say that she burned a lot of spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1124.html) creating those spawns, so Greg was not the only one involved.

[Fyraltari]

Concerning the question of Dvalin refusing the vote of the council on account of them being dominated:

That assumes Dvalin notices such.

Here is one way it could play out:

1) Deputee High Priest of Dvalin casts Divination asking what the Elders are supposed to vote on and transmits.

2) Elders vote.

3) Once a consensus is reached, the DHPoD throws some powder into a fireplace inside the chamber so that the smoke going from its chimney (the first panel reminds us that these are clearly visible from the outside) will turn blue if the answer is "Yay" and yellow if the answer is "Nay".

4) Dvalin sees it from whatever plane he is in and casts his vote.


With this scenario the vampires' plan can work. I am not saying this is how it will play out, though. I am saying that the bad guys now more than we do about the proceedings of the vote and they think their plan can work so we should withhohld judgement on that plan until we know what it actually is!

[Aveline]

The theory strengthens! Come one come all, the Peelee's Church of the Sudden Skylight!

I am a proud member of Peelee's Church of Sudden Skylight.

[Keltest]

Assume that Dvalin does find out. He still doesn't know the actual will of the council, and we're right back to "welp he just decides himself." Which is the one thing we know he won't do, and I highly doubt the plot will move towards "well we'll just wait until we get a good council vote."

It wont, because drama or whatever, but generally when the only reason you can think of for a character to not take a really obvious smart action is "because drama" then you should have gone back to the storyboard and figured out a different situation to be in. Its typically a bad thing when "because the plot needs it" is the only reason you have for characters doing stupid things. If it isn't informed by the characterization (it isn't, Dvalin swore his oath because he is lawful, not because he is an idiot who needs babysitters to make important decisions for him) or forced by outside events (there is no good reason that Dvalin would take a yes vote at face value and, as far as I am aware, no pressing time limit prohibiting an investigation) then a character should not knowingly make a decision against their self interests.

[Rrmcklin]

Well, congratulations! you don't need to feel any dramatic tension, because you "know" exactly what Dvalin will do even if Hel's plan is carried out perfectly!

Cool! So you can kick back, watch, and enjoy the artwork, while the rest of us can follow the plot.

Looks like a great deal for everyone involved, no?

Why are you being so unnecessarily hostile?



It wont, because drama or whatever, but generally when the only reason you can think of for a character to not take a really obvious smart action is "because drama" then you should have gone back to the storyboard and figured out a different situation to be in. Its typically a bad thing when "because the plot needs it" is the only reason you have for characters doing stupid things. If it isn't informed by the characterization (it isn't, Dvalin swore his oath because he is lawful, not because he is an idiot who needs babysitters to make important decisions for him) or forced by outside events (there is no good reason that Dvalin would take a yes vote at face value and, as far as I am aware, no pressing time limit prohibiting an investigation) then a character should not knowingly make a decision against their self interests.

And basically this. We already know the world isn't going to end, but the idea that it could even though the situation would be incredibly obvious would be one of the more egregious examples of bad writing I've seen. I have a higher opinion of the Giant's writing than that so I'm not going to assume it.

[Peelee]

That is an interesting point I suppose - he might not actually meet them in person. But then that leaves the question of why dominate the Council instead of just killing all of them and send the vote without anyone knowing?

And if he does meet them in person him not being able to tell would be ridiculous unless the swirly eye effect isn't visible to the characters. But I see no reason to think that. So it kind of seems like you're admitting there's no way this does make sense.

Not admitting anything of the sort. You're assuming A.) Dvalin will personally meet, which is ridiculous; even Thor, a major Deity who had urgent need to talk to Durkon, couldn't just go down to the planet to chat, and 2.) the vamps can kill the Council and still send the vote. I submit that neither is correct, and everything makes perfect sense.

Something something make assumptions that fit the text instead of one's that don't.

[Syncrogti]

Who is the evil spirit thing, and I assume it will possess the dwarven matriarch?

[Enero Irontoad]

Huh. When's the last time we had a comic like this, with so many never-before-seen characters and so few returning characters? And no major recurring characters, either.

[Resileaf]

Who is the evil spirit thing, and I assume it will possess the dwarven matriarch?

It's the Ex-arch in his mist form. Vampires can take on a mist form at will.

[schmunzel]

Concerning the question of Dvalin refusing the vote of the council on account of them being dominated:

That assumes Dvalin notices such.

Here is one way it could play out:

1) Deputee High Priest of Dvalin casts Divination asking what the Elders are supposed to vote on and transmits.

2) Elders vote.

3) Once a consensus is reached, the DHPoD throws some powder into a fireplace inside the chamber so that the smoke going from its chimney (the first panel reminds us that these are clearly visible from the outside) will turn blue if the answer is "Yay" and yellow if the answer is "Nay".

4) Dvalin sees it from whatever plane he is in and casts his vote.


With this scenario the vampires' plan can work. I am not saying this is how it will play out, though. I am saying that the bad guys now more than we do about the proceedings of the vote and they think their plan can work so we should withhohld judgement on that plan until we know what it actually is!

What I *assume* is that the deputy takes the result of the vote and magically sends it by proxy to the head priest - much like Veldrina did with her pantheons vote.

Im not sure that they will be able to tell the difference ( your way is very catholic though :)


sch

[Rrmcklin]

Not admitting anything of the sort. You're assuming A.) Dvalin will personally meet, which is ridiculous; even Thor, a major Deity who had urgent need to talk to Durkon, couldn't just go down to the planet to chat, and 2.) the vamps can kill the Council and still send the vote. I submit that neither is correct, and everything makes perfect sense.

Something something make assumptions that fit the text instead of one's that don't.

A.) I assumed no such thing. I offered up a possibility because either he has to meet them "in person" via proxy or he has to have someone to receive the vote indirectly.

2) If he's not meeting them directly, he has to get the answer to their votes somehow, in which case killing the Council, and just sending the vote out claiming to be them sounds easier and more logical to me than the obvious domination.

Everything very well might make perfect sense, I've never claimed it doesn't because I don't think we know all of the details. I'm arguing that something you don't seem to have a problem with is very well could be a problem, and it's not illogical for other people to view it as such.

Acknowledging there can be potential holes in a story is not the same thing as stating they definitely exist.

[Resileaf]

For all we know, Dvalin will mention after the vote that he would have demanded an investigation of the elder council vote if it had come back as yes and that he doesn't see why everyone was so on edge about it. :smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

He could do it safely, if they are near enough to the surface. There's only two actual vampires so only a small patch of sun is needed. It would still be a poetic reflection.
Last time we knew of many vampires were left (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1092.html), thing didn't turn out so hot. Or the time before, coming to think of it.
There are at least three "living" vampires since one escaped the last fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html). And we don't know how many (if any) spaws the Exaargh took with him.

The theory strengthens! Come one come all, the Peelee's Church of the Sudden Skylight!
I did not bring any new element to strengthen your theory. Also consider that the cave the chamber is in is large enough that a break in the roof would probably kill anybody unlucky enough to be in it when the debris fall.


Coungerargument: Only the head vamp had the spell, and spamming it like he did nearly drained his slots, explaining his lack of involvement in the big battle.
Ponchula explictly mentions creating spawns as draining her spell slots!

Female vampire does say that she burned a lot of spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1124.html) creating those spawns, so Greg was not the only one involved.
Yes, I linked to that!

It wont, because drama or whatever, but generally when the only reason you can think of for a character to not take a really obvious smart action is "because drama" then you should have gone back to the storyboard and figured out a different situation to be in. Its typically a bad thing when "because the plot needs it" is the only reason you have for characters doing stupid things. If it isn't informed by the characterization (it isn't, Dvalin swore his oath because he is lawful, not because he is an idiot who needs babysitters to make important decisions for him) or forced by outside events (there is no good reason that Dvalin would take a yes vote at face value and, as far as I am aware, no pressing time limit prohibiting an investigation) then a character should not knowingly make a decision against their self interests.
Or maybe Dvalin's characterization is meant as a concrete exemple of how the BetTM screws the Dwarves over? Because in response they created a strictly honor-bound society and now the dwarfiest dwarf who ever dwarfed won't break his word if it saved his entire species.

[Ruck]

As OotS knows the purpose of the vampire's invasion, this leads to the question of why they bothered with Thor's temple. They could have moved to the real target and wait for Durkula's party to come to them.

They followed the stone that the High Priest of Thor gave Roy.

[Aveline]

I think it's a little unfair to search for potential holes in a scene we've seen just one page of.

[Peelee]

It wont, because drama or whatever, but generally when the only reason you can think of for a character to not take a really obvious smart action is "because drama" then you should have gone back to the storyboard and figured out a different situation to be in. Its typically a bad thing when "because the plot needs it" is the only reason you have for characters doing stupid things. If it isn't informed by the characterization (it isn't, Dvalin swore his oath because he is lawful, not because he is an idiot who needs babysitters to make important decisions for him) or forced by outside events (there is no good reason that Dvalin would take a yes vote at face value and, as far as I am aware, no pressing time limit prohibiting an investigation) then a character should not knowingly make a decision against their self interests.

All this assumes that Dvalin will absolutely know the vote is rigged, and will be absolutely able to discount it. For the first, our knowledge is not character knowledge, and while Dvalin may figure it out, we don't know if he will. For the latter, we have no idea about how the deal is set up - it may be a pure honor agreement, or it may be how he has to do it, because he made it that way.

Now, with these two unknowns, let's go ahead and assume that Hel, a major Deity who came up with the plan to begin with, does know how Dvalin's agreement works, as well as the abilities and limitations of deities interacting with the Material Plane. It safe to assume Hel would not form a plan that would be so horribly flawed as to be practically untenable, so I feel safe in completely discounting any theories relying on the plan not working at fundamental levels.

Lastly, because of the issue Rrmcklin is having with someone else, I hope this isn't coming off as condescending, and if it is please let me know. I'm not trying to be at all, and I apologize if I come off that way.

[Keltest]

Or maybe Dvalin's characterization is meant as a concrete exemple of how the BetTM screws the Dwarves over? Because in response they created a strictly honor-bound society and now the dwarfiest dwarf who ever dwarfed won't break his word if it saved his entire species.

If that's the case, its terribly communicated. Nothing suggests that Dvalin's personality is anything other than entirely his own. And unlike a mortal, a (demi)god is the literal embodiment of a concept, so his ability to act outside of that concept, even in his own self interest, is much more limited.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You know, I just realize that it makes a whole lot of sense for Firmament (meaning sky) to be the highest city of the Dwarven Lands and the seat of the Priest of Thor: Thor is a sky god.

Hasn't this been explicitly stated as the reason already? Something about the temple needing a door to the outside so they could check the weather?

What doesn't make as much sense is why Dvalin's meeting chamber is in Firmament. Presumably, either this was Dvalin's capital during his reign (maybe he was a devotee of Thor?) or he was born here or some other reason. After his death, the government left behind the clan council system (Just like Rome never quite stopped having a Senate, it just gradually became a social club for the ultra-rich) and moved the capital elsewhere.


I think it's a little unfair to search for potential holes in a scene we've seen just one page of.

This. It is already silly to try and guess what will happen next, but it crosses the line into obnoxious when people start looking for plot holes that have yet to happen. Yes, it is trivial to imagine a scenario in which this whole plan relies on everyone being stupid. But, you know, don't? If you have so little faith in Rich, why are you still reading his story after 1000 pages?

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Female vampire does say that she burned a lot of spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1124.html) creating those spawns, so Greg was not the only one involved.

Point taken. I withdraw my counters.

I did not bring any new element to strengthen your theory. Also consider that the cave the chamber is in is large enough that a break in the roof would probably kill anybody unlucky enough to be in it when the debris fall.

The Firmament name was something I hadn't thought of. Also, if only they had a Wizard with an obscene number of highly specialized Hand spells. :smalltongue:

[Morty]

I think it's a little unfair to search for potential holes in a scene we've seen just one page of.

What else would people do in this subforum?

[Fyraltari]

What I *assume* is that the deputy takes the result of the vote and magically sends it by proxy to the head priest - much like Veldrina did with her pantheons vote.
The priests are glorified telephone lines, they have no say in this. Veldrina channelled her goddess who was the one who relayed her pantheon's votet to the Northern one. And I assumed told her colleagues what was happening at which point the high priest of Marduk refused to share his sandwiches with the High priestes of Ishtar beacause she pissed on his altar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html).


Im not sure that they will be able to tell the difference ( your way is very catholic though :)
By design, I was looking for an example of the resultt of a vote being cmmunicated indirectly and cultural environment + subject at hand + the fact this the second establishing shot of these chimneys gave me one on a silver platter.

A.) I assumed no such thing. I offered up a possibility because either he has to meet them "in person" via proxy or he has to have someone to receive the vote indirectly.

2) If he's not meeting them directly, he has to get the answer to their votes somehow, in which case killing the Council, and just sending the vote out claiming to be them sounds easier and more logical to me than the obvious domination.
There might be some magic involved. Or they don't want to risk Dominating the Cleric that will probably be there to relay the question tothe Elders and they won't not start anything if the Council isn't there.

[Peelee]

What else would people do in this subforum?

Talk about if Miko was in Star Wars.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't like that the guards have already been dominated. I hope she survives long enough to become important. Yeah, she's already got a place in my "hope she lives through this mess" list.
It's the Exexchar. Not sure if you meant the "Ex-Exarch" or were making a pun on the exchequer. (Also potentially evil, vampirish, etc). Either way it brought a grin with coffee this morning.

But no, as far as I know, they don't have the sped up vampirification anymore. It probably died with Greg. And with Roy breaking that staff before he returned it to the new high priestess of Hel's frontarchical sect.

Durkon uses the Hammer of Loki Sucks to collapse the roof and shine light on the remaining vampires, poetically mirroring Tenrin's sacrifice. Durkon will do something, and I hope it is something like this.
You know, I just realize that it makes a whole lot of sense for Firmament (meaning sky) to be the highest city of the Dwarven Lands and the seat of the Priest of Thor: Thor is a sky god. Sigdi mentions something about this in one of Durkon's flash backs, or Durkon does: the Thor priests go out and look at the sky. (Or maybe it was mentioned in passing as Roy and company arrived at the Temple.

[Grey Watcher]

I still fail to see how this plan is gonna work, like, at all.

Case 1, they kill and vamp all the elders who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of "yes" from undead vampire dwarves matching Hel's affiliation. Huh.
Case 2, they dominate them all who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of highly questionable "yes" that would doom the entire dwarven race and doesn't even bother to scry down for a second to make sure no foul play is at hand. Huh.

Hopefully there'll be some twist or reveal to make this more believable, because as of now it seems like the bad guy's plan relies heavily on the Idiot Ball trope for it to work.

If Dvalin had enough common sense to question the legitimacy of the Council's vote, he'd have been willing to just vote No in the first place. Dvalin has a +2 adamantine idiot ball of returning. Alignment of Lawful Stupid. The works.

[KorvinStarmast]

If Dvalin had enough common sense to question the legitimacy of the Council's vote, he'd have been willing to just vote No in the first place. Dvalin has a +2 adamantine idiot ball of returning. Alignment of Lawful Stupid. The works. Yeah, that was the impression I got from his remarks at the godsmoot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html).

[Keltest]

All this assumes that Dvalin will absolutely know the vote is rigged, and will be absolutely able to discount it. For the first, our knowledge is not character knowledge, and while Dvalin may figure it out, we don't know if he will. For the latter, we have no idea about how the deal is set up - it may be a pure honor agreement, or it may be how he has to do it, because he made it that way.

Now, with these two unknowns, let's go ahead and assume that Hel, a major Deity who came up with the plan to begin with, does know how Dvalin's agreement works, as well as the abilities and limitations of deities interacting with the Material Plane. It safe to assume Hel would not form a plan that would be so horribly flawed as to be practically untenable, so I feel safe in completely discounting any theories relying on the plan not working at fundamental levels.

Lastly, because of the issue Rrmcklin is having with someone else, I hope this isn't coming off as condescending, and if it is please let me know. I'm not trying to be at all, and I apologize if I come off that way.

Maybe he wouldn't be able to figure it out, but as far as we have been shown, the vampires are not even making preparations for this. The plan is "feed Dvalin a Yes vote." Not "feed him a Yes vote and trick him into thinking its legit" or "feed him a Yes vote and force him to vote against his better judgment somehow." The entire lynchpin of this plan has always been presented as the vampires getting to the council and sending out that vote, with no other opportunities to stop it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Maybe he wouldn't be able to figure it out, but as far as we have been shown, the vampires are not even making preparations for this. The plan is "feed Dvalin a Yes vote." Not "feed him a Yes vote and trick him into thinking its legit" or "feed him a Yes vote and force him to vote against his better judgment somehow." The entire lynchpin of this plan has always been presented as the vampires getting to the council and sending out that vote, with no other opportunities to stop it. I wonder if the real case of hubris is Hel's.

We'll see.

[Elanasaurus]

It safe to assume Hel would not form a plan that would be so horribly flawed as to be practically untenable Nobody's questioning that assumption. We're just expecting another reveal later to further explain just how Hel manages to deceive Dvalin.
If Dvalin had enough common sense to question the legitimacy of the Council's vote, he'd have been willing to just vote No in the first place. Dvalin has a +2 adamantine idiot ball of returning. Alignment of Lawful Stupid. The works.His Stupidity lies in the fact that he subjects himself to the will of the Council. Nothing more than that has been seen so far.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not sure if you meant the "Ex-Exarch" or were making a pun on the exchequer.
I'm afraid it was merely a typo of exexarch, my preferred name for that vampire (Gonetor is too punish for my taste).


And with Roy breaking that staff before he returned it to the new high priestess of Hel's frontarchical sect.
Unfortunately, as others have now pointed out, Ponchula knows the spell, so it seems that the old theory that, once a cleric figures out a spell, all other clerics of the same deity gets access to it must be true, and thus the exexarch probably does as well. That said, as the link also proves, it is likely that he is running low on spell slots and can't afford to do another mass vampirization.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Hasn't this been explicitly stated as the reason already? Something about the temple needing a door to the outside so they could check the weather?

Sigdi mentions something about this in one of Durkon's flash backs, or Durkon does: the Thor priests go out and look at the sky. (Or maybe it was mentioned in passing as Roy and company arrived at the Temple.
Rubyrock says the purpose of the backdoor is to go look at the sky (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html) and Tinna says the Tample is one the few organization that pays you for that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1099.html).

Neither mentions anything about Firmament being special in this regard.

The Firmament name was something I hadn't thought of. Also, if only they had a Wizard with an obscene number of highly specialized Hand spells. :smalltongue:
Good point.

[Kish]

Where is all this "clearly dominated" stuff coming from?

Remember, the gods can only see and hear each other at the Godsmoot, not the random worshipers who are (from their perspective) only significant at all because their presence is necessary for the gods to be able to meet there. Dvalin didn't hear anything Greg or Gontor said about dominating the Council. Dvalin's entire reason to expect "yes" votes to be the result of domination would consist of "I assume Hel is cheating somehow, though I have no indication of how!" and if he was going to do that, he might as well have skipped straight to, "I swore to follow the will of the Council and so I will; also, no matter what they say I'm positive their will is that I vote 'no,' so I'll just do that without bothering to ask them."

[Cazero]

Talk about if Miko was in Star Wars.
*Talk about if Miko was justified to be in Star Wars.


His Stupidity lies in the fact that he subjects himself to the will of the Council.
Also known as democracy. Strange that so many people on these forums are against that concept.

[GregTD]

Why are you being so unnecessarily hostile?


And basically this. We already know the world isn't going to end, but the idea that it could even though the situation would be incredibly obvious would be one of the more egregious examples of bad writing I've seen. I have a higher opinion of the Giant's writing than that so I'm not going to assume it.

Your answer is here:

The point is that Dvalin isn't the final arbiter of their decision in any way, so he is probably unable to nullify just like that. He must have set up some rules that he is bound to follow for this procedure, and even though I'm not sure what exactly the vampires will do, they must have a way of subverting said rules.

I'm reacting, appropriately, to that fact that this argument is stupidly pointless.

We established back in 1016 that the bud guys (specifically: Hel), who, unlike us, do know the rules, think that they can adjust Dvalin's vote by going this route.

So, either Rich is a really crappy writer (in which case, why are you reading the comic?), or else he's got some more aces up his sleeve.

Trying to figure out what ace Rich has up his sleeve this time could be a useful discussion. Whinging that "Rich sucks as a writer" (which is pretty much what you're doing), is not a useful discussion.

I leave the field to you. Bye!

[Peelee]

A.) I assumed no such thing. I offered up a possibility because either he has to meet them "in person" via proxy or he has to have someone to receive the vote indirectly.

2) If he's not meeting them directly, he has to get the answer to their votes somehow, in which case killing the Council, and just sending the vote out claiming to be them sounds easier and more logical to me than the obvious domination.

Everything very well might make perfect sense, I've never claimed it doesn't because I don't think we know all of the details. I'm arguing that something you don't seem to have a problem with is very well could be a problem, and it's not illogical for other people to view it as such.

Acknowledging there can be potential holes in a story is not the same thing as stating they definitely exist.

Meeting in person means face to face. Like Durkon and Thor in the afterlife, not like anyone in the chamber (including the high priest) and Thor at the Godsmoot. As said, that route is glorified telephone line. Very different than in-person. If that's not what you meant, I understand now, but I still don't see how he will know the vote is rigged based off anything other than it not going the way he might expect.

As to killing the council, we don't know how that'll happen. The proxy spell let's gods talk to other gods, we're explicitly told they can't hear mortals, so that's not it. In the absense of knowing how the vote will be communicated, I can safely assume it will require living elders (especially since the vamps literally have the book on the procedure), as well as not revealing swirly eyes. Hel helped create the world. The vampires know exactly how the process works. Everything suggests they have more knowledge than the reader, and have formed a plan based off that knowledge. The reader then finding possible holes simply means there is a huge probability that the reader is missi g knowledge that plugs said holes.

[Elanasaurus]

Where is all this "clearly dominated" stuff coming from?

Remember, the gods can only see and hear each other at the Godsmoot, not the random worshipers who are (from their perspective) only significant at all because their presence is necessary for the gods to be able to meet there. Dvalin didn't hear anything Greg or Gontor said about dominating the Council. Dvalin's entire reason to expect "yes" votes to be the result of domination would consist of "I assume Hel is cheating somehow, though I have no indication of how!" and if he was going to do that, he might as well have skipped straight to, "I swore to follow the will of the Council and so I will; also, no matter what they say I'm positive their will is that I vote 'no,' so I'll just do that without bothering to ask them."One would still expect that Dvalin would have a way to ensure that the council's vote is legitimate.

[schmunzel]

<snip> Sigdi mentions something about this in one of Durkon's flash backs, or Durkon does: the Thor priests go out and look at the sky. (Or maybe it was mentioned in passing as Roy and company arrived at the Temple.

Tenrin liked to look at the stars !!

sch

[Rrmcklin]

Your answer is here:


I'm reacting, appropriately, to that fact that this argument is stupidly pointless.

We established back in 1016 that the bud guys (specifically: Hel), who, unlike us, do know the rules, think that they can adjust Dvalin's vote by going this route.

So, either Rich is a really crappy writer (in which case, why are you reading the comic?), or else he's got some more aces up his sleeve.

Trying to figure out what ace Rich has up his sleeve this time could be a useful discussion. Whinging that "Rich sucks as a writer" (which is pretty much what you're doing), is not a useful discussion.

I leave the field to you. Bye!

At what point did I complain that he's a terrible writer? I'm fairly certain I've said the exact opposite at least twice. If you have to argue against something I haven't said then I'm done discussing this, at least with you. Your general style of debate only makes that decision easier.

[schmunzel]

*Talk about if Miko was justified to be in Star Wars.


<snip>

"I am the chosen. search your Feelings Tiger! Deep inside you know its true"

sch

[Peelee]

One would still expect that Dvalin would have a way to ensure that the council's vote is legitimate.

A vote that has years between occurrences for the tiebreaking vote in a secret meeting largely unknown to the outside world, conducted by a race known for their incredible lawfulness that is directly tied to their cosmic fates.

I don't think it's really been an issue ever before, gotta say.

[Elanasaurus]

Your answer is here:


I'm reacting, appropriately, to that fact that this argument is stupidly pointless.

We established back in 1016 that the bud guys (specifically: Hel), who, unlike us, do know the rules, think that they can adjust Dvalin's vote by going this route.

So, either Rich is a really crappy writer (in which case, why are you reading the comic?), or else he's got some more aces up his sleeve.

Trying to figure out what ace Rich has up his sleeve this time could be a useful discussion. Whinging that "Rich sucks as a writer" (which is pretty much what you're doing), is not a useful discussion.

I leave the field to you. Bye! Who's whinging? You're whinging. All we're saying is that we think Rich does have more aces up his sleeve, which seems to be your opinion as well. You're just being more mean about it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

One would still expect that Dvalin would have a way to ensure that the council's vote is legitimate.

Why? He is a minor god. He doesn't have much power, and clearly there are strong restrictions on gods popping down to take a look for themselves. If 99% of the time his votes are for minor matters that no-one cares to interfere with, why'd there been a need of ensuring that vampires couldn't interfere?

Dwarves are lawful. They wouldn't interfere. This is like the whole "why aren't there vampire defences" argument: it focuses too much on what is an extremely exceptional circumstance. It's not that strange they didn't predict and defend against it.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

One would still expect that Dvalin would have a way to ensure that the council's vote is legitimate.
Whoever this one is, I think they need to reread the Godsmoot strips, and/or come up with something more specific than "he must have some way."

[Kaed]

I still fail to see how this plan is gonna work, like, at all.

Case 1, they kill and vamp all the elders who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of "yes" from undead vampire dwarves matching Hel's affiliation. Huh.
Case 2, they dominate them all who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of highly questionable "yes" that would doom the entire dwarven race and doesn't even bother to scry down for a second to make sure no foul play is at hand. Huh.

Hopefully there'll be some twist or reveal to make this more believable, because as of now it seems like the bad guy's plan relies heavily on the Idiot Ball trope for it to work.

The first king of dwarves is already unwilling to make a decision on behalf of the elders due to his vow he made when he was alive. Even when the fate of all of their souls is stake, and there was Zero logically that they would say yes.

In what way does all of them voting to end the world under domination seem any different from the perspective of this overly Lawful entity?

[Fyraltari]

Also known as democracy. Strange that so many people on these forums are against that concept.
Aristocracy*
We don't know that the Clan Elders are elected by the people, and since they aren't the current parliament (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html) I'd suspect they're not.

the vamps literally have the book on the procedure.
Where id dthey even get that? Was brother Sandstone carrying it on him or what?

One would still expect that Dvalin would have a way to ensure that the council's vote is legitimate.
No system is foolproof. Also if the side characters made perfect decisions we wouldn't have a plot.

If that's the case, its terribly communicated.
Book's not over. I expect Hilgya to have something tos ay about the whole thing as a matter of principle, really.

Nothing suggests that Dvalin's personality is anything other than entirely his own[ And unlike a mortal, a (demi)god is the literal embodiment of a concept, so his ability to act outside of that concept, even in his own self interest, is much more limited.
Dvalin is an ascended mortal, not a conglomeration of ideas.

[Ruck]

One would still expect that Dvalin would have a way to ensure that the council's vote is legitimate.


Whoever this one is, I think they need to reread the Godsmoot strips, and/or come up with something more specific than "he must have some way."

It's spelled "Juan." I think maybe he's Julio's brother?

[Keltest]

Why? He is a minor god. He doesn't have much power, and clearly there are strong restrictions on gods popping down to take a look for themselves. If 99% of the time his votes are for minor matters that no-one cares to interfere with, why'd there been a need of ensuring that vampires couldn't interfere?

Dwarves are lawful. They couldn't interfere. This is like the whole "why aren't there vampire defences" argument: it focuses too much on what is an extremely exceptional circumstance. It's not that strange they didn't predict and defend against it.

Grey Wolf

At one point, he was King of the Dwarves though, and actually ruled his people. Just because the council doesn't do so much with him now doesn't mean it didn't do more in the past, when the rules were established to begin with.

[Peelee]

Where did they even get that? Was brother Sandstone carrying it on him or what?

You assume a poor library system among the dwarves, clearly. :smalltongue:

[Anarion]

Well, Hel has one plan, but I guess as long as every decision-making meeting has strict and highly arcane rules that don't take account of things like "everybody hanging around is now a vampire or thrall" it's a good plan.

[Moriel64]

She's only existed for a page and I already love this long-suffering daughter. She's obviously heard this a thousand times before. I will tentatively put her in my "second favourite dwarf" spot for now.

First place is, of course, always reserved for Sigdi.

I don't like that the guards have already been dominated. I hope she survives long enough to become important.

But you've forgotten Minrah! She's coming back, and she'll be prepared against all those icky undead things!

[Cazero]

Aristocracy*
We don't know that the Clan Elders are elected by the people, and since they aren't the current parliament (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html) I'd suspect they're not.My bad.
But it's still one step removed from the autocracy some forumites around here seem to praise.

[Fyraltari]

My bad.
But it's still one step removed from the autocracy some forumites around here seem to praise.
I'd love to start a discussion about the morality (or lack thereof) of a god taking the opinions of his worshippers into account when deciding stuff, but I fer this would veer into real world religion faster than we could type "forbidden topic" so I suggest we quietly drop the subject.

Hmm... Hey look these guards are wearing more elaborate armor than the usual dwarven soldiers! I hope they won't be too much of a problem! Let's discuss that!

[Peelee]

I'd love to start a discussion about the morality (or lack thereof) of a god taking the opinions of his worshippers into account when deciding stuff, but I fer this would veer into real world religion faster than we could type "forbidden topic" so I suggest we quietly drop the subject.

Hmm... Hey look these guards are wearing more elaborate armor than the usual dwarven soldiers! I hope they won't be too much of a problem! Let's discuss that!

Durkon's gonna take it, and it'll be a size too small. There, got an Indiana Jones joke in and still riding the Zim train. BOOYAKASHA!

[Fyraltari]

Durkon's gonna take it, and it'll be a size too small. There, got an Indiana Jones joke in and still riding the Zim train. BOOYAKASHA!

What's this to do with zimmer?

[Aveline]

Talk about if Miko was in Star Wars.


"I am the chosen. search your Feelings Tiger! Deep inside you know its true"

sch

I'd watch that movie.

[Cazero]

I'd love to start a discussion about the morality (or lack thereof) of a god taking the opinions of his worshippers into account when deciding stuff, but I fer this would veer into real world religion faster than we could type "forbidden topic" so I suggest we quietly drop the subject.
Well, the comment are implying the god should ignore the opinions of his worshippers by dismissing the answer obtained through the proper communication procedure, but...

Hmm... Hey look these guards are wearing more elaborate armor than the usual dwarven soldiers! I hope they won't be too much of a problem! Let's discuss that!
Hoo ! Cool spaulders !
Pauldrons? Shoulderpads? What's the correct term again?

[Kish]

Talk about if Miko was in Star Wars.
She was played by Samuel L. Jackson.

[Elanasaurus]

A vote that has years between occurrences for the tiebreaking vote in a secret meeting largely unknown to the outside world, conducted by a race known for their incredible lawfulness that is directly tied to their cosmic fates.

I don't think it's really been an issue ever before, gotta say.One would think that, regardless of circumstances, Dvalin would find a way to ensure that his own vow to the dwarves is honoured.
Why? He is a minor god. He doesn't have much power, and clearly there are strong restrictions on gods popping down to take a look for themselves. If 99% of the time his votes are for minor matters that no-one cares to interfere with, why'd there been a need of ensuring that vampires couldn't interfere?So that he's sure of the vote.
Dwarves are lawful.Squeaky and Hilgya aren't Lawful.
Whoever this one is, I think they need to reread the Godsmoot strips, and/or come up with something more specific than "he must have some way."I'm Elanasaurus...

I did reread a few of the Godsmoot strips in fact, and I guess I missed whatever you're referring to. But I find your position, that Dvalin doesn't have a way to ensure that he's following the Council's will, to be interpreting his character wrongly.
The first king of dwarves is already unwilling to make a decision on behalf of the elders due to his vow he made when he was alive. Even when the fate of all of their souls is stake, and there was Zero logically that they would say yes.

In what way does all of them voting to end the world under domination seem any different from the perspective of this overly Lawful entity?In the sense that if they're under domination, their vote might not reflect their will under normal circumstances. And what Dvalin cares about is the will of the Council.
No system is foolproof. Also if the side characters made perfect decisions we wouldn't have a plot.Fine, this I can accept.
It's spelled "Juan." I think maybe he's Julio's brother?By "one" I meant myself, Elanasaurus. I guess I phrased it poorly. Apologies.

Gee, talking to many people is hard. Maybe I should turn on my laptop for this.

[Fyraltari]

You know fancy shmancy barriers that keep the people needed in are good and all, but they really should invest in barriers that keep the people not needed out. I feel like the Exarch would have strong opinions on such malfunctionning doors.

[Grey Watcher]

Given that "exploit Dvalin's oath" is the backup plan in case one of Hel's demigod allies bailed (ie Hermod), I'd expect she'd want to be even more sure that it'd work than her base plan of "force a tie and stack the deck of demigod attendees". Hel did her homework and I think if there were ANY chance Dvalin would think to do anything but rubber-stamp the Council vote, no matter how suspicious, she would've figured out some other backup plan.

Think about it: what's the POINT of having a King of All Clans (Dvalin's title as a mortal) if the Council has to make literally every decision for him anyway? Why not just have the Clans answer to the Council itself? I know I'm stepping out onto a branch of speculation here, but I suspect mortal!Dvalin got his job precisely because he's an idiot who will mindlessly follow orders, no matter how absurd or obviously counter-productive. He was (in this theory) nothing more than the Council's fall guy. And, whatever powers and perspective he gained upon his apotheosis, he seems to have kept the personality flaw of "mindlessly follows orders."

[Kish]

Well, the comment are implying the god should ignore the opinions of his worshippers by dismissing the answer obtained through the proper communication procedure, but...
I think there's value in both "they appointed me to make decisions like this, not to come running to them whenever there's a decision to make" and "holy duh, I don't need to ask them 'do you want me to damn you all for eternity?'"...but, of course, neither would fit Dvalin's established ultra-Lawful personality, and him having that personality is (still) not the plot hole some people have been pushing for it to be ever since he first appeared at the Godsmoot.

(Not aimed at you, Rrmcklin.)

[Elanasaurus]

Given that "exploit Dvalin's oath" is the backup plan in case one of Hel's demigod allies bailed (ie Hermod), I'd expect she'd want to be even more sure that it'd work than her base plan of "force a tie and stack the deck of demigod attendees". Hel did her homework and I think if there were ANY chance Dvalin would think to do anything but rubber-stamp the Council vote, no matter how suspicious, she would've figured out some other backup plan.Yes, I'm expecting more details later on Hel's plan.
Think about it: what's the POINT of having a King of All Clans (Dvalin's title as a mortal) if the Council has to make literally every decision for him anyway? Why not just have the Clans answer to the Council itself? I know I'm stepping out onto a branch of speculation here, but I suspect mortal!Dvalin got his job precisely because he's an idiot who will mindlessly follow orders, no matter how absurd or obviously counter-productive. He was (in this theory) nothing more than the Council's fall guy. And, whatever powers and perspective he gained upon his apotheosis, he seems to have kept the personality flaw of "mindlessly follows orders."Yes, he mindlessly follows orders, but wouldn't he want to confirm the orders?

[Resileaf]

Think about it: what's the POINT of having a King of All Clans (Dvalin's title as a mortal) if the Council has to make literally every decision for him anyway? Why not just have the Clans answer to the Council itself? I know I'm stepping out onto a branch of speculation here, but I suspect mortal!Dvalin got his job precisely because he's an idiot who will mindlessly follow orders, no matter how absurd or obviously counter-productive. He was (in this theory) nothing more than the Council's fall guy. And, whatever powers and perspective he gained upon his apotheosis, he seems to have kept the personality flaw of "mindlessly follows orders."

Well he was deified, so we kind of have to at least assume he was a good king if he's remembered that well...

[Fyraltari]

Think about it: what's the POINT of having a King of All Clans (Dvalin's title as a mortal) if the Council has to make literally every decision for him anyway? Why not just have the Clans answer to the Council itself? I know I'm stepping out onto a branch of speculation here, but I suspect mortal!Dvalin got his job precisely because he's an idiot who will mindlessly follow orders, no matter how absurd or obviously counter-productive. He was (in this theory) nothing more than the Council's fall guy. And, whatever powers and perspective he gained upon his apotheosis, he seems to have kept the personality flaw of "mindlessly follows orders."

Possibly, the Clans used to be separate (as in completely independent nations) and Dvalin was the one who convinced them they need to come together for some reason so they made him Koing but to appease those who were afraid their clan would lose any decisionnal power and the King would favor his own, he made an Oath to follow the will of the entre Council and he tills considers it binding even though he ascended to godhood and the Council stopped being a government.

"The nature of promises is that they remain immune to changing circumstances".

EDIT: after all he may even have had is own vote in that council at the time.

[Gift Jeraff]

I know I'm stepping out onto a branch of speculation here, but I suspect mortal!Dvalin got his job precisely because he's an idiot who will mindlessly follow orders, no matter how absurd or obviously counter-productive. He was (in this theory) nothing more than the Council's fall guy. And, whatever powers and perspective he gained upon his apotheosis, he seems to have kept the personality flaw of "mindlessly follows orders."

I like the theory that Dvalin was specifically groomed and sponsored into divinity by Thor and other good gods in order to create the model dwarf who would show everyone else how to avoid Hel. Although I'm also kind of hoping that Dvalin is aware of Odin's prophecy and Thor's plan so he is just playing his part to get Durkon to meet Thor, and he will end up voting No regardless of the council.

[Fyraltari]

I like the theory that Dvalin was specifically groomed and sponsored into divinity by Thor and other good gods in order to create the model dwarf who would show everyone else how to avoid Hel. Although I'm also kind of hoping that Dvalin is aware of Odin's prophecy and Thor's plan so he is just playing his part to get Durkon to meet Thor, and he will end up voting No regardless of the council.

Thor told him not to. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html)

[TheTinyMan]

I suspect mortal!Dvalin got his job precisely because he's an idiot who will mindlessly follow orders, no matter how absurd or obviously counter-productive. He was (in this theory) nothing more than the Council's fall guy. And, whatever powers and perspective he gained upon his apotheosis, he seems to have kept the personality flaw of "mindlessly follows orders."

Okay, I love the idea that a character literally ascended to divinity because he was stupid and everyone around him loved that. If that turns out to not be the case here I'm going to have to put that in the next silly game I DM.

[Cazero]

Think about it: what's the POINT of having a King of All Clans (Dvalin's title as a mortal) if the Council has to make literally every decision for him anyway?Tiebreaker, being the authority figure in charge of enforcing the Council's decisions on the clans who voted against them.


I think there's value in both "they appointed me to make decisions like this, not to come running to them whenever there's a decision to make" Did they appoint him to make decisions, or to enforce decisions?
And in any case, having a demigod bound to the dwarven council mean the dwarves have the privileged positions of being the only mortal race in OotSworld to have any say whatsoever in a Godsmoot. edit : that's rambling speculations and the elves might have a better deal

[Grey Watcher]

Suddenly all I can think of is Sir Joseph Porter from HMS Pinafore:


And I never thought of thinking for myself at all.

I thought so little, they rewarded me
By making me the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!

[Gift Jeraff]

Thor told him not to. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html)

All part of the act.

[Peelee]

What's this to do with zimmer?



Prediction: whatever newarmor Durkon gets will have highlights the dark blue of the Church of Thor.
I'm jumping on the Zim bandwagon.
Stolen armors too small so he ditches it, and still gets the dark blue stuff. Frog dissected.

[Grey Watcher]

Is that the sun or the moon in the sky of the establishing shot? Have we cut to the morning or are we still in the midst of a Horrible Night to Have a Curse?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is that the sun or the moon in the sky of the establishing shot? Have we cut to the morning or are we still in the midst of a Horrible Night to Have a Curse?

Last we heard, Durkon still hadn't had a chance to refresh spells, so I'd say probably pre-dawn. Especially since there is a non-0 chance this might technically be a jump back in time from the previous scene.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

All part of the act.
To fool whom?

Is that the sun or the moon in the sky of the establishing shot? Have we cut to the morning or are we still in the midst of a Horrible Night to Have a Curse?
The vampires won't move until most of the Council has arrived for the vote scheduled for midmorning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1152.html), so I'd say the Night of te Living Dwarves is over.

[Heksefatter]

Beware, ye vampires! This dorf Matriach is far too awesome and grumpy for you to dominate into doing your bidding!

[hroþila]

I always thought Hel's plan regarding the Council had to be more than what we've seen, because "just straight up dominate the elders" feels cheesy to me. That said, I don't think the vote should be so obvious that any sane version of Dvalin should disregard anything but a No vote, Lawfulness be damned. They're not necessarily voting whether they say Yea to eternal damnation in Hel's domains, but whether they prefer that to 1) running the risk of their souls being unmade (not a trivial matter), and 2) running the risk of every other soul being unmade. I could see many scenarios where any society, but especially a mostly Lawful Good society, would vote for their own servitude in those circumstances.

[jwhouk]

Being dead also probably means that you no longer are a clan elder and that your title passes on to your legal heir. Even if you are still capable of speech. So vamping them would not be helpful except in delaying the vote.

But no, as far as I know, they don't have the sped up vampirification anymore. It probably died with Greg.

Grey Wolf

The wand that Malack used had "charges" in it that allowed the quick-vamping. It won't work (well, anyways) with the Ex-Exarch.

The theory of going after just one of the councilmembers could be intriguing, though.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, those new characters seem fun. I’m sure that nothing bad will happen to them. Also, love the small detail of at least one of the Dwarven clans being matriarchal.

With regards to how Dvalin will interpret the clan’s vote, count me in among those who’s not convinced he’d necessarily have a way of validating that it was a legitimate vote. Certainly, if he’s willing to put the fate of the world in the hands of the council, rather than just going “This is stupid, I vote no”, I‘m not actually sure how much he’ll be concerned by the council’s actual reasoning.

[Ruck]

I cast Summon Banana for a relevant quote on why characters don't simply take optimal actions that protect them from all contingencies.

[Fyraltari]

The wand that Malack used had "charges" in it that allowed the quick-vamping. It won't work (well, anyways) with the Ex-Exarch.

The theory of going after just one of the councilmembers could be intriguing, though.
They have the spell without needing the staff.



Yes, probably. Two of the Creeders prepared (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html) the ambush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1101.html) and it's later confirmed that it meant accelarating vampires (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1124.html). One of these two is with the Ex-Exarch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html) and it seems reasonable that he preapared the spell as well. Dominating these guartds insteas of vamping them was probably to avoid giving it away to the Elders.

[AutomatedTeller]

It seems obvious that the vampires have a plan that should work. I mean, it's been a major plot point that such a plan exists and must be stopped for 150 strips now.

[Keltest]

It seems obvious that the vampires have a plan that should work. I mean, it's been a major plot point that such a plan exists and must be stopped for 150 strips now.

The story is written as if the plan should work. That doesn't actually mean its beyond scrutiny, or that it has no flaws either in the execution or presentation.

[Legato Endless]

Well he was deified, so we kind of have to at least assume he was a good king if he's remembered that well...

He's the first King. Founders tend to get deified regardless of how good at their job they were.


I'm reacting, appropriately, to that fact that this argument is stupidly pointless.

So, either Rich is a really crappy writer (in which case, why are you reading the comic?), or else he's got some more aces up his sleeve.

Statements like these are highly problematic and beneath how people should conduct themselves in a discussion frankly. If you want to criticize speculation or interpretation, that's great. But telling someone who does that and happens to be in disagreement with you to consider leaving is Gatekeeping. And that's a practice without merit or validity in this context.

And FYI, people who engage with fiction aren't a binary of absolute faith and contrarian loathing. It's entirely possible to really enjoy a writer and still actively question part of the work, or even dislike select parts of it.

While I actually agree with the general notion that speculating about something that might be unsatisfying isn't interesting to me...I'm really put off by this thought showing up more than once here. It's gross to suggest to someone voluntarily engaging in a community to consider leaving just because they aren't demonstrating enough tribal loyalty, fan enthusiasm or whatever label one prefers.

[Ruck]

By "one" I meant myself, Elanasaurus. I guess I phrased it poorly. Apologies.

Gee, talking to many people is hard. Maybe I should turn on my laptop for this.

Don't worry about it. I think Kish was referring to a common usage of "one" as a weasel word, implying that people think something without wanting to take responsibility for the opinion itself. And I was just making a joke, one that apparently didn't land for anyone except me.


The story is written as if the plan should work. That doesn't actually mean its beyond scrutiny, or that it has no flaws either in the execution or presentation.
The problem is that a lot of the scrutiny has been along the lines of "I think Dvalin should have a method for contacting mortals and determining if their vote is being influenced, despite Dvalin being extremely Lawful and everything we've seen about The Rules limiting / preventing gods from interacting with the mortal realm."

[Keltest]

The problem is that a lot of the scrutiny has been along the lines of "I think Dvalin should have a method for contacting mortals and determining if their vote is being influenced, despite Dvalin being extremely Lawful and everything we've seen about The Rules limiting / preventing gods from interacting with the mortal realm."

Its not an assumption. As a god, he has clerics and priests. Doing his bidding on the mortal realm is literally their job.

Beyond that though, we know the gods can observe the mortal realm, even if they cant affect it directly, so the idea that he would be acting blindly here is just completely wrong.

[Elanasaurus]

Don't worry about it.Thanks :redface:
I think Kish was referring to a common usage of "one" as a weasel word, implying that people think something without wanting to take responsibility for the opinion itself. And I was just making a joke, one that apparently didn't land for anyone except me.Well, I was using it as a weasel word, at least until that section of the comment was replied to.
The problem is that a lot of the scrutiny has been along the lines of "I think Dvalin should have a method for contacting mortals and determining if their vote is being influenced, despite Dvalin being extremely Lawful and everything we've seen about The Rules limiting / preventing gods from interacting with the mortal realm."AFAIK nothing prevents the gods from observing the mortal realm. EDIT: oh i've been ninja'd

[JumboWheat01]

I should totally make a dwarf character who gets sore joints above ground now. Seems like a fun flavor thing to complain about.

[Windscion]

On Dvalin's oath:
As other have noted, the oath may have been necessary at the time for purely political reasons. The real question is why a demigod should consider himself bound for actions taken not as king of all clans but as a demigod. It sounds like Dvalin isn't very smart, or just too lawful-unimaginative to ask questions. Which is so anti-adventurer. I mean, question has the word "quest" right in there!

The ex2-arch:
Specified dominating the clan elders, so presumably that is the plan, unless Greg changed it. The weakness of this is, the victim can save again when forced to do something against their true nature (OotS #524).
I here ignore the Dragon Magazine (bonus?) strip where Elan breaks free of the heavily-templated Snail's domination as those are non-canonical and, more importantly, not everyone has access.

However. Just because that is a weakness doesn't mean Team Hel has a contingency for that case. In this case, holding hostages may not help because of Dwarven lawfulness. Especially if the vote is explicit as to the stakes, which it pretty much has to be. I mean, if the choice is death vs death with a side of eternity in Hel's domain... A threat to turn hostages into vampires is more serious, but even if they know how vampirism works, the soul is only trapped in decaying meat for so long as the vampire exists. And I doubt the ex2-arch can just planeshift/gate them to another plane to make the threat more extreme.

[SilverCacaobean]

AFAIK nothing prevents the gods from observing the mortal realm. EDIT: oh i've been ninja'd

I think Redcloak claimed at some point that the other Gods were obscuring the Dark One's vision when it came to the snarl. Maybe Gods can obscure each other's vision? If so, maybe Hel has taken steps to compromise whatever scrying Dvalin would use to verify the integrity of the vote.

[Ruck]

Its not an assumption. As a god, he has clerics and priests. Doing his bidding on the mortal realm is literally their job.

And he is limited in how much he can interact with them, certainly as far as direct communication.


Beyond that though, we know the gods can observe the mortal realm, even if they cant affect it directly, so the idea that he would be acting blindly here is just completely wrong.

And if an extremely Lawful god didn't write an exception into his oath for contingencies regarding vampires showing up to a morning meeting and dominating the Council of Clans, what makes you think he would break it for that? I mean, the fact that he went to the Council of Clans at all instead of voting "no" suggests that following his oath takes precedence over any kind of common-sense fallback contingency.

[Resileaf]

I think Redcloak claimed at some point that the other Gods were obscuring the Dark One's vision when it came to the snarl. Maybe Gods can obscure each other's vision? If so, maybe Hel has taken steps to compromise whatever scrying Dvalin would use to verify the integrity of the vote.

Not quite. What he said was that the gods were not telling the Dark One anything about the Snarl, and there's only so much the Dark One can learn about the Snarl when all the information belongs only to the gods.

[Elanasaurus]

I think Redcloak claimed at some point that the other Gods were obscuring the Dark One's vision when it came to the snarl. Maybe Gods can obscure each other's vision? If so, maybe Hel has taken steps to compromise whatever scrying Dvalin would use to verify the integrity of the vote.Yeah, maybe. As much as I'd like to see Dvalin make an effort to verify the vote, I suppose there are too many possible hindrances to have it shown in the comic.

EDIT: yeah apparently Block Sensing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm) is a thing

[Heksefatter]

And he is limited in how much he can interact with them, certainly as far as direct communication.



And if an extremely Lawful god didn't write an exception into his oath for contingencies regarding vampires showing up to a morning meeting and dominating the Council of Clans, what makes you think he would break it for that? I mean, the fact that he went to the Council of Clans at all instead of voting "no" suggests that following his oath takes precedence over any kind of common-sense fallback contingency.

I agree very much with the last bit. Actually, I have a pet theory that Dvalin might not even be capable of disregarding the will of the council of clan elders. If he is a spiritual being of utterly lawful nature, he might be bound by law much more than any mortal could be.

[Keltest]

And he is limited in how much he can interact with them, certainly as far as direct communication.



And if an extremely Lawful god didn't write an exception into his oath for contingencies regarding vampires showing up to a morning meeting and dominating the Council of Clans, what makes you think he would break it for that? I mean, the fact that he went to the Council of Clans at all instead of voting "no" suggests that following his oath takes precedence over any kind of common-sense fallback contingency.

Yes, clearly the only possible contingency here is one that is shockingly specific. Theres no possible way that he could go "wait, that doesn't sound right. Are you sure this came from the council? I need to check for myself." and still be following his oath.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I mean, the fact that he went to the Council of Clans at all instead of voting "no" suggests that following his oath takes precedence over any kind of common-sense fallback contingency.

OK, this is now getting really silly.

Dvalin's choice is not trivial. Good gods have voted for the destruction of the world already, Dvalin might honestly be of two minds about it even before council input. For one thing, he is not voting between "destroying the world or not destroying the world". That is what we thought back then. Now, we know better: the choice is, as the gods see it, "destroy the world now and preserve a boatload of souls, at the cost of handling over the Northern Pantheon to Hel for a cycle" versus "wait, and risk consigning every soul in the planet to oblivion-by-Snarl, possibly causing all ascended gods to starve before a new world can be created".

Yes, the dwarves' prospects are less than ideal: oblivion versus Hel. But Dvalin might not just think of the dwarves. He is duty incarnate, and if sacrificing himself and all other dwarves keeps all other souls from being consumed by the Snarl, that might be something he'd honestly consider as a Lawful Good individual. But, involving as it does others, he does want to consult.

Grey Wolf

[SilverCacaobean]

Not quite. What he said was that the gods were not telling the Dark One anything about the Snarl, and there's only so much the Dark One can learn about the Snarl when all the information belongs only to the gods.

Ah, my memory failed me again. I should just stop using it at this point.


On Dvalin's oath:
As other have noted, the oath may have been necessary at the time for purely political reasons. The real question is why a demigod should consider himself bound for actions taken not as king of all clans but as a demigod. It sounds like Dvalin isn't very smart, or just too lawful-unimaginative to ask questions. Which is so anti-adventurer. I mean, question has the word "quest" right in there!

Since we now have proof that belief can affect a Deity (Thor not being a ginger anymore and Odin going loopy), if the Dwarfs thought of him as honour bound ultra lawful King, it's reasonable to assume that that's how he would be when he ascended.

[hroþila]

And if an extremely Lawful god didn't write an exception into his oath for contingencies regarding vampires showing up to a morning meeting and dominating the Council of Clans, what makes you think he would break it for that? I mean, the fact that he went to the Council of Clans at all instead of voting "no" suggests that following his oath takes precedence over any kind of common-sense fallback contingency.
A vampire's dominating gaze is only one of the many possible ways to adulterate the vote. We don't need the contingencies to be about something as specific as vampires, we just need there to be basic safeguards to ensure a vote can work.

[Fyraltari]

OK, this is now getting really silly.

Dvalin's choice is not trivial. Good gods have voted for the destruction of the world already, Dvalin might honestly be of two minds about it even before council input. For one thing, he is not voting between "destroying the world or not destroying the world". That is what we thought back then. Now, we know better: the choice is, as the gods see it, "destroy the world now and preserve a boatload of souls, at the cost of handling over the Northern Pantheon to Hel for a cycle" versus "wait, and risk consigning every soul in the planet to oblivion-by-Snarl, possibly causing all ascended gods to starve before a new world can be created".

Yes, the dwarves' prospects are less than ideal: oblivion versus Hel. But Dvalin might not just think of the dwarves. He is duty incarnate, and if sacrificing himself and all other dwarves keeps all other souls from being consumed by the Snarl, that might be something he'd honestly consider as a Lawful Good individual. But, involving as it does others, he does want to consult.

Grey Wolf
There's also the question of wether Dvalin thinks the Dark One can be persuaded to help.

[Iruka]

The theory strengthens! Come one come all, to Peelee's Church of the Sudden Skylight!


Praise be to the Sudden Skylight!

[nmphuong91]

By the exact word "obey the will of the Council", and now that Dvalin is a demigod, I'd say that this plan has no higher chance to success than trying to trick Thor with Greg.
Also, given that this plan has never been attempted before and Hel is also a poor and desperate and schemer (1081 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html)), I also think that with "This plan is doomed to fail if this is all Hel got". Still, I hope that there is more to it.

[Moriel64]

I still try to think of ways an Allosaurus can beak said enchantments



for example

sch

Isn't it about time for Mr. Scruffy to do something awesome again? (Granted, he's awesome just existing--he's a cat, after all) but I wanna see him eviscerate something again.

[SilverCacaobean]

Yeah, maybe. As much as I'd like to see Dvalin make an effort to verify the vote, I suppose there are too many possible hindrances to have it shown in the comic.

EDIT: yeah apparently Block Sensing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm) is a thing

Oh. I guess it's possible then.

[Windscion]

Since we now have proof that belief can affect a Deity (Thor not being a ginger anymore and Odin going loopy), if the Dwarfs thought of him as honour bound ultra lawful King, it's reasonable to assume that that's how he would be when he ascended.
A rational counterargument, my one weakness! Curses, foiled again.
I'll be back.

[Jasdoif]

I cast Summon Banana for a relevant quote on why characters don't simply take optimal actions that protect them from all contingencies.That'll be 25gp; or the equivalent in XP, primal essence, amethyst or hepatizon.
You may be looking for the entry from the 14-year-old FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7)....


Q: In Strip #X, why didn't character Y take action Z? If they had done so, they could have avoided a whole lot of trouble.

A: You just answered your own question. The strip is ABOUT the trouble these characters get in; if a tactic would result in an effortless solution to their latest problem, there would be little point in showing it, see? The characters are woefully inefficient as a result, and often take actions that are rarely seen in a real D&D game, like running away from moderate danger or 'forgetting' major abilities for the sake of a joke. But their foibles are what fuel the humor.

Writer and Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski had a standard answer for overzealous fans who would ask him obscure questions like, 'How fast does a Starfury (the show's standard fighter ship) fly?' He would say, 'They travel at the speed of plot,' meaning that if the script called for them to get somewhere in a certain amount of time, they could, and if the script called for them to get there too late, they couldn't. The Order of the Stick travels almost exclusively at the speed of plot....or maybe the more recent posts about Nale and Malack. Which aren't quite a decade newer....


To paraphrase an old joke: Do you accept the story premise that Nale was more prepared, more capable, and more driven to kill Malack than Malack himself was expecting?

Yes?

Then we're just haggling over price.

And if you don't accept that, if you think Malack deserved to win, then no amount of wasted panels showing spells and countermeasures would have changed that opinion. If I had put in a Word of Recall followed by Z counterspelling it or something, then there would have been some other strategy that you would have hung your hat on to say, "Why didn't Malack do this??" If you don't accept that Nale was already aware of all of Malack's defenses and had a means to counter them, then nothing will change that. If you do accept it, then it doesn't matter how much of it I show.

And if I had wasted Malacks one round with a Word of Recall, I would have lost the much-more-dramatically-impactful moment of Malack deciding to spend his one action trying to kill Nale back. I assure you that if the D&D rules gave vampires 3 rounds before sun-death, I would have spent one of those rounds on a Word of Recall attempt that was stopped by Z somehow. But when I only had one round, I chose to use it showing that Malack wanted to kill Nale just as much as Nale wanted to kill Malack. Because as I've said before, I care more about the emotional content of the story than I do about plausibility. I would rather have a story that felt right and was riddled with logical errors than a story that was logically flawless but repetitive and dull.

If you can get through the all-caps style, I recommend Film Crit Hulk's (very long) essay on plot-holes and logic (http://badassdigest.com/2012/10/30/film-crit-hulk-smash-hulk-vs.-plot-holes-and-movie-logic/). It's geared more toward movies than comics, but a lot of the same points apply.

..."Paranoid" implies that the character is putting their safety and well-being ahead of all other considerations, including reason. Malack was reasonably prepared; he was not paranoid. He balanced self-preservation with utility. Putting a backdoor into Durkon's spell cost him nothing, so he did it. But preparing his highest-level spells as defensive spells does cost you the ability to actually advance your goals.

It's sort of a self-fulflling prophecy. If you spend your best spell slots on escape spells, then you will certainly be forced to use them. If you spend your best spell slots on offense, you might actually win. You have to take some risk in order to get ahead, even when you're a 200-year-old vampire.

If you want paranoid, look at Ian. He's so unwilling to take the risk of trusting Elan that he would rather sit in the jail cell.

That said, I don't think we're at a point where that would even apply, yet. The big takeaways from this strip are:

The elders don't know in advance what the Council of Clan Elders was called for.
There's a Godsmoot-y barrier at the meeting hall.
The Exarch's plan allows for dominating guards.
The Exarch's plan allows for vampire(s) revealing their presence to retinues.
We still don't know what the plan is, nor how the Councils are usually run; nor how the former interacts with the latter, even though such interaction was specifically called out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html). It's incredibly easy to make assumptions based on nothing other than one's own imagination...which, of course, is the purview of the author who has to solidify their assumptions; it's not particularly meaningful coming from the audience (outside of providing impetus for fanfiction).

[Peelee]

That'll be 25gp; or the equivalent in XP, primal essence, amethyst or hepatizon.
You may be looking for the entry from the 14-year-old FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7)....

...or maybe the more recent posts about Nale and Malack. Which aren't quite a decade newer....




That said, I don't think we're at a point where that would even apply, yet. The big takeaways from this strip are:

The elders don't know in advance what the Council of Clan Elders was called for.
There's a Godsmoot-y barrier at the meeting hall.
The Exarch's plan allows for dominating guards.
The Exarch's plan allows for vampire(s) revealing their presence to retinues.
We still don't know what the plan is, nor how the Councils are usually run; nor how the former interacts with the latter, even though such interaction was specifically called out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html). It's incredibly easy to make assumptions based on nothing other than one's own imagination...which, of course, is the purview of the author who has to solidify their assumptions; it's not particularly meaningful coming from the audience (outside of providing impetus for fanfiction).

Just got back and was about to go ahead with the Proxy spell. Barely beat me to it. Very smooth. :smallamused:

[schmunzel]

I'd love to start a discussion about the morality (or lack thereof) of a god taking the opinions of his worshippers into account when deciding stuff, but I fer this would veer into real world religion faster than we could type "forbidden topic" so I suggest we quietly drop the subject.

Hmm... Hey look these guards are wearing more elaborate armor than the usual dwarven soldiers! I hope they won't be too much of a problem! Let's discuss that!

You mean apart from proofing that this democracy thingy is really somewhat antiquated and out of fashion??

as far as the armored dwarves are concerned I'd add that we cant be sure that the misted Vampire was Gontor as he may have killed (and vampirized) one or more Clerics of Dwalin

sch

[Ruck]

Yes, clearly the only possible contingency here is one that is shockingly specific. Theres no possible way that he could go "wait, that doesn't sound right. Are you sure this came from the council? I need to check for myself." and still be following his oath.
That you keep inserting the same contingency mechanism we have no reason to think exists doesn't make it more convincing when you repeat yourself.


OK, this is now getting really silly.

Dvalin's choice is not trivial. Good gods have voted for the destruction of the world already, Dvalin might honestly be of two minds about it even before council input. For one thing, he is not voting between "destroying the world or not destroying the world". That is what we thought back then. Now, we know better: the choice is, as the gods see it, "destroy the world now and preserve a boatload of souls, at the cost of handling over the Northern Pantheon to Hel for a cycle" versus "wait, and risk consigning every soul in the planet to oblivion-by-Snarl, possibly causing all ascended gods to starve before a new world can be created".

Yes, the dwarves' prospects are less than ideal: oblivion versus Hel. But Dvalin might not just think of the dwarves. He is duty incarnate, and if sacrificing himself and all other dwarves keeps all other souls from being consumed by the Snarl, that might be something he'd honestly consider as a Lawful Good individual. But, involving as it does others, he does want to consult.

Grey Wolf

Dvalin says himself he has "no desire to see my people condemned to Hel's care." I don't see much reason to think he's of two minds on the subject. At no point does he mention a duty to the greater good, only to his oath.

Sure, it's possible that his dialogue was meant in part to not reveal to us the stakes this time around (or lack thereof for the gods, since they've been through this so many times). But then we're getting to the point where we're reading what we want to read into the dialogue.

I still think there's no reason to assume "Dvalin simply must have some kind of extra contingency plan when consulting the Council."

EDITS:

I think it's plausible that Dvalin is necessarily a demigod bound by oath, as shaped by belief in him. Not sure how that impacts his decisions vs. if we assume otherwise, though.

Jasdoif, it was probably the initial FAQ question, although the Malack / Nale exchange was somewhat relevant. Basically, if Dvalin had a perfectly foolproof manner for making sure the Council was on the up and up, then there's no conflict here, and no story.

(Also, since I'm thinking about it: What does Dvalin do if he does discover the Council is rigged? Just wait for the vampires to not dominate anymore? What if that never comes to pass? I mean, Dvalin still has to obey the will of the Council; he can't just decide he knows what they really meant.)

[Breccia]

Possibly by author's design, but, man it's good for the vampires the dwarves all live where sunlight is not a realistic issue. "Hmm, high noon on a sunny day. Time to walk the streets openly and murder some people."

[Grey Watcher]

OK, this is now getting really silly.

Dvalin's choice is not trivial. Good gods have voted for the destruction of the world already, Dvalin might honestly be of two minds about it even before council input. For one thing, he is not voting between "destroying the world or not destroying the world". That is what we thought back then. Now, we know better: the choice is, as the gods see it, "destroy the world now and preserve a boatload of souls, at the cost of handling over the Northern Pantheon to Hel for a cycle" versus "wait, and risk consigning every soul in the planet to oblivion-by-Snarl, possibly causing all ascended gods to starve before a new world can be created".

Yes, the dwarves' prospects are less than ideal: oblivion versus Hel. But Dvalin might not just think of the dwarves. He is duty incarnate, and if sacrificing himself and all other dwarves keeps all other souls from being consumed by the Snarl, that might be something he'd honestly consider as a Lawful Good individual. But, involving as it does others, he does want to consult.

Grey Wolf

But he's only consulting the Clans. If he's hesitating because the needs of the many (all non-Dwarf souls and the more-recently ascended gods) outweigh the needs of the few (dwarven souls), why would he only consult the dwarven Clans? This suggests that the only perspective he cares about is that of the Dwarves. (And I highly, highly doubt any of the Councilors will put the needs of humans, elves, halflings, and the rest above those of themselves and their own constituents, no matter how big the numerical disparity is.)

Eh, it's all academic since it seems quite unlikely that Rich, even given his penchant to run long in the telling of his tale, would go through all of this only to have the Order fail to stop the election fraud and then it turns out they needn't have worried because Dvalin isn't the fool he seems. Sure, we can (and probably will) speculate forever and ever about what Dvalin would have done had he gotten a "Yes" back from the Council, but it would be a really radical departure for Rich to make nearly an entire book's worth of action by the protagonists mostly irrelevant. I mean, I guess if he's going for a Tolkeinian eucatastrophe, but I doubt it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I still think there's no reason to assume "Dvalin simply must have some kind of extra contingency plan when consulting the Council."

Neither do I; I am objecting to the idea that it would be against common sense or stupid for Dvalin to vote anything other than "Yes". Yes, he might not want the dwarves be condemned to Hel's care, but left unsaid (because they don't talk about it out loud) is the other half of that feeling: "but I also don't want to condemn them to the Snarl's maw".

Yes, of course we are reading meaning into his words. Thus my actual position to wait and see rather than start throwing terms like "idiot ball" around because the God of Duty is duty-bound to his duty. Or worse, as I have seen all-too-often, that it is idiotic to need to collect opinions on the "Hel vs oblivion" choice, even if he himself thinks that oblivion is better than Hel.

Edit:

But he's only consulting the Clans. If he's hesitating because the needs of the many (all non-Dwarf souls and the more-recently ascended gods) outweigh the needs of the few (dwarven souls), why would he only consult the dwarven Clans?

Because that is all he can do? He is a minor god, not someone that can tap into every mind in the world. He believes in the wisdom of clan leaders to decide for the well being of the clans, pretty much by the very definition of who he is, and thus that is all he can do.

Grey Wolf

[Themrys]

She's only existed for a page and I already love this long-suffering daughter. She's obviously heard this a thousand times before. I will tentatively put her in my "second favourite dwarf" spot for now.

First place is, of course, always reserved for Sigdi.

I don't like that the guards have already been dominated. I hope she survives long enough to become important.

I, too.

I also like the cranky mom dwarf. She gives off some Granny Weatherwax vibes ... perhaps she'll unexpectedly beat the vampires by making them crave tea? Hmm ... in case of a dwarf, probably beer.

[schmunzel]

To fool whom?

The vampires won't move until most of the Council has arrived for the vote scheduled for midmorning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1152.html), so I'd say the Night of te Living Dwarves is over.

The Vampire (whoever it was) moved enough to give himself away to the daughter and her entourage

sch

[Snails]

Bytheway, seems like a good time to double down on my theory that Durkon's destruction is going to be the roof. The elder just mentioned how close they are to the surface.


Oh, I like that. Lightning hammering the roof to let in sunlight and turn the tables on Gontor is a nice twist. It is the kind of thing that only a dwarf who spent too much time above ground would think about.

[knag]

Two questions:

Is it possible to read the runes over the door or will we need to wait for the book to see it in higher res?

What is the significance of the force field at the door? It didn't stop Gontor from coming in. Will it keep the Order Out?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What is the significance of the force field at the door? It didn't stop Gontor from coming in. Will it keep the Order Out?

If it is the same as the godsmoot, it prevents participants from leaving until a decision is rendered.

Grey Wolf

[Grey Watcher]

That you keep inserting the same contingency mechanism we have no reason to think exists doesn't make it more convincing when you repeat yourself.



Dvalin says himself he has "no desire to see my people condemned to Hel's care." I don't see much reason to think he's of two minds on the subject. At no point does he mention a duty to the greater good, only to his oath.

Sure, it's possible that his dialogue was meant in part to not reveal to us the stakes this time around (or lack thereof for the gods, since they've been through this so many times). But then we're getting to the point where we're reading what we want to read into the dialogue.

I still think there's no reason to assume "Dvalin simply must have some kind of extra contingency plan when consulting the Council."

Also, it would've been easy for him to just reference Sigrun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html)'s reasoning and say something to the effect of "I have no desire to see my people condemned to Hel's care, but Sigrun raises a good point. I shall defer to the wisdom of the Council of Clans." Same plot unfolds, but makes it clear that Dvalin is weighing those two perspectives. But he's not, he only cites the letter of his oath, so it only makes sense to believe him when he says so until we have a good reason to think otherwise.

Between that and the reaction of the other Northern high priests (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html), this appears to be what Dvalin always does; surrenders his agency by citing his oath and making everyone wait around until the Council can be assembled and polled. And there's nothing to suggest that that isn't exactly what he's doing now, for the same reasons he always does it.

[Breccia]

Lightning hammering the roof to let in sunlight and turn the tables on Gontor is a nice twist.

I hate to rules lawyer a perfectly good story element...so I won't. I want to see this.

[Peelee]

Is that the sun or the moon in the sky of the establishing shot? Have we cut to the morning or are we still in the midst of a Horrible Night to Have a Curse?

I'd say moon, no time cuts either direction, and it's very early morning, not long before dawn.

[Ruck]

Neither do I; I am objecting to the idea that it would be against common sense or stupid for Dvalin to vote anything other than "Yes". Yes, he might not want the dwarves be condemned to Hel's care, but left unsaid (because they don't talk about it out loud) is the other half of that feeling: "but I also don't want to condemn them to the Snarl's maw".

Yes, of course we are reading meaning into his words. Thus my actual position to wait and see rather than start throwing terms like "idiot ball" around because the God of Duty is duty-bound to his duty. Or worse, as I have seen all-too-often, that it is idiotic to need to collect opinions on the "Hel vs oblivion" choice, even if he himself thinks that oblivion is better than Hel.

I mean, I personally (along with Thor and some of the other high priests, it seems) seem to think it's foolish, but that's not really my point of contention anyway, so much as it is that "So-and-so should have contingencies prepared for every possible drawback!" isn't something I buy as an argument about this story, and it's one that it's been made quite a bit in various situations over the years. (I edited some other things into my previous post on that topic.)

[Fyraltari]

The Vampire (whoever it was) moved enough to give himself away to the daughter and her entourage

sch

Yes, which is why I am saying that it follows that there was a time-jump and we are now near midmorning and the night is over.

[Ganbatte]

What part of "the Dwarf God swore an oath to abide by the votes of the Clan Council (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html)" did you miss?

You said it yourself, the Clan Council. Not the votes of Hel delivered by a proxy.


One could assume that Dvalin would immediately stop Hel's plan to begin with, going by that logic. It's not a matter of intelligence. He has to do things a certain way. He's the one who specifically set things up that way. It's not stupidity, it's being hoisted on one's own petard.

He has to follow the protocol, yes, but that doesn't mean he has to do so like a zombie.
In a way following the vote of dominated/vamped dwarves would NOT be following the Concil's Will and such would make him break his oath.

The idea that Dvalin wouldn't even scry down for a second to check if everything is in order seems way too implausible to me. Hopefully the Giant has something to cover this up.

[schmunzel]

OK, this is now getting really silly.

Dvalin's choice is not trivial. Good gods have voted for the destruction of the world already, Dvalin might honestly be of two minds about it even before council input. For one thing, he is not voting between "destroying the world or not destroying the world". That is what we thought back then. Now, we know better: the choice is, as the gods see it, "destroy the world now and preserve a boatload of souls, at the cost of handling over the Northern Pantheon to Hel for a cycle" versus "wait, and risk consigning every soul in the planet to oblivion-by-Snarl, possibly causing all ascended gods to starve before a new world can be created".

Yes, the dwarves' prospects are less than ideal: oblivion versus Hel. But Dvalin might not just think of the dwarves. He is duty incarnate, and if sacrificing himself and all other dwarves keeps all other souls from being consumed by the Snarl, that might be something he'd honestly consider as a Lawful Good individual. But, involving as it does others, he does want to consult.

Grey Wolf

Dvalin vowed *to obey* the councils matter in all things concerning all clans!!

sch

[Peelee]

Yes, which is why I am saying that it follows that there was a time-jump and we are now near midmorning and the night is over.

Too dark for that, IMO. Plans are great until they encounter reality.

[Ganbatte]

Did you?

The comic says he swore an oath to obey the will of the council, and if the elders are dominated then their votes do not reflect their will.

Well damn, everyone already said what I wanted a few posts later. Guess I am redundant.

[The Pilgrim]

Looks like Dwarven Society is not as Patriarchal as Hilgya and Ivan's arranged marriage suggested.

[schmunzel]

Isn't it about time for Mr. Scruffy to do something awesome again? (Granted, he's awesome just existing--he's a cat, after all) but I wanna see him eviscerate something again.

As a veterinary surgeon I am very strictly *against* (and for very good reasons, too) cats eviscerating anything.
PLUS Im more of a dogs person.

sch

[Keltest]

I mean, I personally (along with Thor and some of the other high priests, it seems) seem to think it's foolish, but that's not really my point of contention anyway, so much as it is that "So-and-so should have contingencies prepared for every possible drawback!" isn't something I buy as an argument about this story, and it's one that it's been made quite a bit in various situations over the years. (I edited some other things into my previous post on that topic.)

In what way is somebody tampering with the vote NOT something that should reasonably have been foreseen and planned for? Its not some random obscure potential, its literally a basic function of protecting the legitimacy of your leadership.

[Cazero]

The idea that Dvalin wouldn't even scry down for a second to check if everything is in order seems way too implausible to me. Hopefully the Giant has something to cover this up.
The idea that the voting chamber of the top authority of all things dwarf isn't protected from scrying is even more implausible.

Looks like Dwarven Society is not as Patriarchal as Hilgya and Ivan's arranged marriage suggested.
You don't need any patriarchy to have arranged marriages. You just need elders who treat their clanpeople as property to be traded around.

[Fyraltari]

The idea that the voting chamber of the top authority of all things dwarf isn't protected from scrying is even more implausible.
True. Good thing this is not that chamber, then, right?

[Wysper]

The thing about this whole plan that doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't the demi-god of dwarves KNOW that all the elders were Dominated while making a vote? Especially since they know a Vampire ran off as soon as it was announced what was happening at the Godsmoot?

Also, what is that field the Elder and her entourage walked in thru? Seems like it should protect against mind control effects.

[Ruck]

Isn't it about time for Mr. Scruffy to do something awesome again? (Granted, he's awesome just existing--he's a cat, after all) but I wanna see him eviscerate something again.

He woke up Belkar, that was pretty awesome.

[Cazero]

The thing about this whole plan that doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't the demi-god of dwarves KNOW that all the elders were Dominated while making a vote?
How would he?

Especially since they know a Vampire ran off as soon as it was announced what was happening at the Godsmoot?
Citation needed.

[Ganbatte]

The idea that the voting chamber of the top authority of all things dwarf isn't protected from scrying is even more implausible.

Scrying from their own gods? Sounds questionable.


The thing about this whole plan that doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't the demi-god of dwarves KNOW that all the elders were Dominated while making a vote? Especially since they know a Vampire ran off as soon as it was announced what was happening at the Godsmoot?

To be fair the gods don't know what happened down there, physically. To them it was nothing but a bunch of proxies/holograms delivering their votes. They could talk to each other but not to the mortals down there.

[Fyraltari]

Too dark for that, IMO. Plans are great until they encounter reality.

Hmm, comparing the sky around midnight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1090.html), during the day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1079.html) and "right now", it looks like you are right.

I guess whatever the vampires are going to do to these four does not count as "moving openly"

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/963/293/5c6.png

[Riftwolf]

Guessing this isn't the Exarch. Feels too witty and informal.
And I'm guessing they're not dominating the Elders, but the guards are exempt from Council rules (similar to the Creed). Because the Elders don't know why they're called, they'll bend more to old fashioned coercion (ie threatening their loved ones, or telling them if they vote to save the world, the vampires will attack the council and kill them, rules be damned). I'm not going to start shouting Idiot Ball until I see more evidence.

[Peelee]

So, let me get this straight. It's completely implausible for a demigod to not have contingencies to assure the integrity of the vote, including not scrying on the area before it takes place, but none of those things apply to the Godsmoot itself despite being presided over by many full-fledged gods of varying personalities? Ain't nobody scried the Godsmoot while the vampire was converting the entire Creed of Stone, and not a word has been said about that for years now, but y'all will be damned if Dvalin doesn't take a peek here?

There are safeguards. The actual armed guards inside the building, the companions going with the elders (presumably family who would be familiar with the elders' views and opinions), maybe more we don't know about. The complaints here aren't "there are no safeguards to protect the integrity of the vote," they're "the safeguards in place aren't designed to protect against this very specific type of intrusion." Y'all are ignoring that this is exactly why the vampires are doing this specific plan. Pick whatever the hell safeguards you want. The vampires literally read the book on the procedures. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html) They can figure out a way around the safeguards. The way we're seeing is the way they chose, so we can infer that it's working around the safeguards in place. Any complaints otherwise are spurious attempts to say "well it should be perfectly defended."

[Keltest]

So, let me get this straight. It's completely implausible for a demigod to not have contingencies to assure the integrity of the vote, including not scrying on the area before it takes place, but none of those things apply to the Godsmoot itself despite being presided over by many full-fledged gods of varying personalities? Ain't nobody scried the Godsmoot while the vampire was converting the entire Creed of Stone, and not a word has been said about that for years now, but y'all will be damned if Dvalin doesn't take a peek here?

There are safeguards. The actual armed gods inside the building, the companions going with the elders (presumably family who would be familiar with the elders' views and opinions), maybe more we don't know about. The complaints here aren't "there are no safeguards to protect the integrity of the vote," they're "the safeguards in place aren't designed to protect against this very specific type of intrusion." Y'all are ignoring that this is exactly why the vampires are doing this specific plan. Pick whatever the hell safeguards you want. The vampires literally read the book on the procedures. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html) They can figure out a way aroind the safeguards. The way we're seeing is the way they chose, so we can infer that it's working around the safeguards in place. Any complaints otherwise are spurious attempts to say "well it should be perfectly defended."

I assume you meant guards, not gods. Although I guess depending on how you define "god", those could be dwarven einherjar summoned to the mortal plane?

[Peelee]

I assume you meant guards, not gods. Although I guess depending on how you define "god", those could be dwarven einherjar summoned to the mortal plane?

Ha! Yeah, that pesky autocorrect will get me every time. Thanks, fixed.

[Ganbatte]

So, let me get this straight. It's completely implausible for a demigod to not have contingencies to assure the integrity of the vote, including not scrying on the area before it takes place, but none of those things apply to the Godsmoot itself despite being presided over by many full-fledged gods of varying personalities? Ain't nobody scried the Godsmoot while the vampire was converting the entire Creed of Stone, and not a word has been said about that for years now, but y'all will be damned if Dvalin doesn't take a peek here?

Realize that nothing of what Durkula did at the Godsmoot manipulated the vote in any way, so for all we know they could've been all scrying but saw no reason to do anything since the voting itself proceeded without cheating.

[jwhouk]

Thor told him not to. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html)

Wait wait wait wait.

"I must consult the dwarven Council of Clans before coming to any decision."

Though he states that he must follow the will of the council, that doesn't mean that he has to make the same decision as the council...

[Peelee]

Realize that nothing of what Durkula did at the Godsmoot manipulated the vote in any way, so for all we know they could've been all scrying but saw no reason to do anything since the voting itself proceeded without cheating.

A cleric of Hel appearing changed the vote to a tie, and was surprising. I'd call that a massive effect on the vote, wouldn't you?

[Cazero]

Scrying from their own gods? Sounds questionable.
You can set up a permanent scry-blocker from the core rulebook, or you can research one that makes an exception for your god in the faint hope that one day, the elders of the other clans will trust you enough to let the higher level caster you might actualy not have cast it.
I'd go with the first option. Faster, cheaper, more reliable and a lot less hassle.

[Fyraltari]

Wait wait wait wait.

"I must consult the dwarven Council of Clans before coming to any decision."

Though he states that he must follow the will of the council, that doesn't mean that he has to make the same decision as the council...

He said his oath was to "obey the will of the council", so yes. Also I doubt The Giant will write a confrontations with bad guys that end with an NPC solving everything because the bad guys' plan was not viable anyway.

[Ganbatte]

A cleric of Hel appearing changed the vote to a tie, and was surprising. I'd call that a massive effect on the vote, wouldn't you?

Having an effect and cheating is not the same. Hel had all the rights to be present, she just lacked a representative.

Your argument is that we don't have a reason to expect scrying and other safeguards for checking the validity of votes to be present because of what happened at the Godsmoot, but nothing of what happened at the Godsmoot impacted the validity of the votes and thus it's entirely possible the safeguards were there but had no reason to object.

Dvalin's would be another story, as a dominated/vamped council of Elders would not represent the will of the council.

[jwhouk]

The theory strengthens! Come one come all, to Peelee's Church of the Sudden Skylight!


I'm in on this one.


He said his oath was to "obey the will of the council", so yes. Also I doubt The Giant will write a confrontations with bad guys that end with an NPC solving everything because the bad guys' plan was not viable anyway.

Yeah, I saw that right after I posted. Still, it might give some a dramatic enough pause that Durkon can emerge with The Hammer of Loki Sucks and BOOM! There goes the shaded skylight.

[SilverCacaobean]

Having an effect and cheating is not the same. Hel had all the rights to be present, she just lacked a representative.

Your argument is that we don't have a reason to expect scrying and other safeguards for checking the validity of votes to be present because of what happened at the Godsmoot, but nothing of what happened at the Godsmoot impacted the validity of the votes.

Dvalin's would be another story, as a dominated/vamped council of Elders would not represent the will of the council.

They were all surprized when Hel got to vote. If they had been scrying they wouldn't have been.

edit: Also when Roy gave his big speech some clerics commented on not having the heart to tell him that none of the gods heard him. If they had been scrying the chamber, wouldn't they have heard him? None of them gave any indication of having heard him.

[Lord Torath]

A rational counterargument, my one weakness! Curses, foiled again.
I'll be back.I misread your name as "Wisconsin", and wondered why your location was listed as East Coast! :smallamused:

I hear you, Peelee, regarding the Church of the Sudden Skylight. But how about joining the Church of the Collapsing Bridge? Or am I the only one who noticed that the bridge doesn't connect to the foundation of the council building?

[Ganbatte]

They were all surprized when Hel got to vote. If they had been scrying they wouldn't have been.

If you notice Durkula had only been whispering his true identity before the big reveal. Even if some were scrying or checking from above beforehand they might have missed it.


edit: Also when Roy gave his big speech some clerics commented on not having the heart to tell him that none of the gods heard him. If they had been scrying the chamber, wouldn't they have heard him? None of them gave any indication of having heard him.

Not quite as Roy was addressing all the gods, it was his big speech in convincing them all together.

[Peelee]

Having an effect and cheating is not the same. Hel had all the rights to be present, she just lacked a representative.

Your argument is that we don't have a reason to expect scrying and other safeguards for checking the validity of votes to be present because of what happened at the Godsmoot, but nothing of what happened at the Godsmoot impacted the validity of the votes.

Dvalin's would be another story, as a dominated/vamped council of Elders would not represent the will of the council.
Gee, if only of also mentioned that the gods were surprised at his being there as well. Almost as if they didn't know about it, regardless of legality! Dang, that would have been a good point to make.

Oh wait.

I misread your name as "Wisconsin", and wondered why your location was listed as East Coast! :smallamused:

I hear you, Peelee, regarding the Church of the Sudden Skylight. But how about joining the Church of the Collapsing Bridge? Or am I the only one who noticed that the bridge doesn't connect to the foundation of the council building?

The Church of the Sudden Skylight welcomes the Church of the Collapsing Bridge, but questions its translation of the scriptures in such a way that the bridge collapsing would not help defeat the vampires, as they can mistform.

If you notice Durkula had been whispering his true identity all along up until the big reveal. Even if some were scrying beforehand they might have missed it.

He whispered it once, in front of Roy. Then proceeded to have a lengthy open chat with Gontor about Hel's representation.

[Keltest]

They were all surprized when Hel got to vote. If they had been scrying they wouldn't have been.

Thor, at the very least, knew what Greg was up to, or at least suspected it. He went so far as to try and stop it.

[Lord Torath]

The Church of the Sudden Skylight welcomes the Church of the Collapsing Bridge, but questions its translation of the scriptures in such a way that the bridge collapsing would not help defeat the vampires, as they can mistform.Oh, I fully agree about the uselessness of blowing the bridge to stop the vampires. But it would work pretty well to prevent anyone else from trying to interfere with the vampires' plan...

[Peelee]

Having an effect and cheating is not the same. Hel had all the rights to be present, she just lacked a representative.

Also, let's revisit this statement. You're saying that regardless of the vampire's actions, like killing and vamping the Creed of Stone and creating a small vampiric army of Hel, while clearly against the spirit of the Moot, didn't break any rules. And because of that, what we're now seeing must be breaking rule and thus doesn't make sense instead of it also being against the spirit but technically within the rules? Despite that everyone in the comic is acting like its's totally fine?

That's an interesting position to take, I'll certainly grant you that.


Oh, I fully agree about the uselessness of blowing the bridge to stop the vampires. But it would work pretty well to prevent anyone else from trying to interfere with the vampires' plan...
The Church of the Sudden Skylight has no problem with the Church of the Collapsing Bridge's canon.

[Ganbatte]

Gee, if only of also mentioned that the gods were surprised at his being there as well. Almost as if they didn't know about it, regardless of legality! Dang, that would have been a good point to make.

.....Again, it's not about being surprised.
No cheating took place, so that's not enough proof to say that no cheating countermeasures were in place.
Maybe they simply didn't sprung.

[Peelee]

.....Again, it's not about being surprised.
No cheating took place, so that's not enough proof to say that no cheating countermeasures were in place.
Maybe they simply didn't sprung.

So since everything Hel has done so far has technically been within the rules, what she's doing now has to be against the rules? You'd have to be one helluva salesman to get me to buy that, because it only works if you defenestrate character consistency.

[Plus_C]

My prediction for the vampires plan; Interfering with the vote itself would invalidate it. Instead, they're going to kill/ dominate/ block entry to the elders who would be more likely to vote in favour of saving the world and influence it that way, without any of the voters themselves realizing.

[Peelee]

My prediction for the vampires plan; Interfering with the vote itself would invalidate it. Instead, they're going to kill/ dominate/ block entry to the elders who would be more likely to vote in favour of saving the world and influence it that way, without any of the voters themselves realizing.

Good prediction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html).

[Keltest]

So since everything Hel has done so far has technically been within the rules, what she's doing now has to be against the rules? You'd have to be one helluva salesman to get me to buy that, because it only works if you defenestrate character consistency.

The point is that you cant use the godsmoot as proof of the presence or absence of any safeguards, because the vote was completely legitimate.

[Fyraltari]

So since everything Hel has done so far has technically been within the rules, what she's doing now has to be against the rules? You'd have to be one helluva salesman to get me to buy that, because it only works if you defenestrate character consistency.

now, now, it also works if you defenestrate characters constantly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html).

[Peelee]

The point is that you cant use the godsmoot as proof of the presence or absence of any safeguards, because the vote was completely legitimate.

And there's reason to believe this vote won't be totally legitimate because....? "Legitimate," in this case, being "within the rules," not "on their own free will."

[Giggling Ghast]

I still fail to see how this plan is gonna work, like, at all.

Case 1, they kill and vamp all the elders who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of "yes" from undead vampire dwarves matching Hel's affiliation. Huh.
Case 2, they dominate them all who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of highly questionable "yes" that would doom the entire dwarven race and doesn't even bother to scry down for a second to make sure no foul play is at hand. Huh.

Hopefully there'll be some twist or reveal to make this more believable, because as of now it seems like the bad guy's plan relies heavily on the Idiot Ball trope for it to work.

Dwarven honour compels said demigod to follow the decision of the council of clans. It's as simple as that. Hel's interference will make no difference.

[SilverCacaobean]

If you notice Durkula had only been whispering his true identity before the big reveal. Even if some were scrying or checking from above beforehand they might have missed it.

What Peelee said.


Not quite as Roy was addressing all the gods, it was his big speech in convincing them all together.

I'm not sure what you mean.

[Ganbatte]

Also, let's revisit this statement. You're saying that regardless of the vampire's actions, like killing and vamping the Creed of Stone and creating a small vampiric army of Hel, while clearly against the spirit of the Moot, didn't break any rules. And because of that, what we're now seeing must be breaking rule and thus doesn't make sense instead of it also being against the spirit but technically within the rules? Despite that everyone in the comic is acting like its's totally fine?

That's an interesting position to take, I'll certainly grant you that.

More like an inaccurate representation of my position.

Regardless of the vampire's actions, like killing and vamping the Creed of Stone and creating a small vampiric army of Hel, while clearly against the spirit of the Moot, didn't break any rules. And because of that we can't rule out that interfering with the natural voting process of a representative wouldn't instead count as a massive cheating infraction warranting action and scrutiny, or that the voting itself doesn't have procedures set in place to make sure that no such cheating took place behind a "yes" or "no".

We're dealing with the fate of the world after all, I find it difficult to stomach that the most basic notion of vote interference wasn't contemplated.
The idea that Dvalin would be utterly uncapable of checking for the validity of the "Will of the Council", or the mindset to not even bother trying, feels implausible to me and I'd argue many others.

Now I suspect the Giant will pull something to make this more bearable.
One of the few ways in which I'd digest it would be if Odin's "senility" was actually a foreshadowing for Dvalin's "law-bound zombie status" where he'd follow the "yes" or "no" mindlessly like a drone.

That would make me suspend the Idiot Ball trope in this case as it would make sense with what we know of the gods.

[Cazero]

I just wanted to stick that link here before someone beats me to the punch. (https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-12-29)

[Keltest]

And there's reason to believe this vote won't be totally legitimate because....? "Legitimate," in this case, being "within the rules," not "on their own free will."

You mean besides the fact that the vampires announced their intention manipulate the vote?

Yes yes, the gods couldn't hear, but meanwhile Dvalin's high priest was also in the room, as were the high priests of the entire rest of the pantheon. The idea that none of them would inform their god of what happened, and that Dvalin's in particular wouldn't want his god to know that he was being manipulated, strains credulity. And in case there was any doubt, Roy even announced his intention to go safeguard the vote, so even if they didn't hear Gontor, they certainly know.

[Ganbatte]

Dwarven honour compels said demigod to follow the decision of the council of clans. It's as simple as that. Hel's interference will make no difference.

Err... Hel's interference would mean that's no longer the will of the council. That's the point.

[Arkain]

That does not bode well, but we expected as much, didn't we?

On another note, while we admittedly can't see much of it, what with the big swirley eyes and the beard, the guard in the lower left of the last panel seems to have a rather dark skin color. Duergar, more armor, shading or some other artistic decision, I wonder?

[Peelee]

We're dealing with the fate of the world after all, I find it difficult to stomach that the most basic notion of vote interference wasn't contemplated.
The idea that Dvalin would be utterly uncapable of checking for the validity of the "Will of the Council", or the mindset to not even bother trying, feels implausible to me and I'd argue many others.

OK, yet again, the vampires know exactly what will be done. They have the book outlining it in detail. You seem to keep ignoring this for some reason, so forgive me for maybe overemphasizing it, but it seems like i need to. Analogy time! I know very little about MLB rules. If I see a player holding the book of rules, being told to study them specifically, and then later during the game he pretends to throw it to the pitcher while keeping it in his glove and then tags out the runner stepping off base, I'm going to go ahead and assume that's legal instead of thinking, "What? How did the runner have no safeguards against that? THIS IS IMPLAUSIBLE!"

You know why? Because they have the book outlining how it works in detail. They know exactly what to do to stay in the rules. Assuming that what they're doing is clearly implausible and won't work is, quite frankly, a ridiculous position to take, because you are forced to assume that they do not know what's going to happen despite knowing what's going to happen. It doesn't make sense. It ignores what's in the comic. It's a bad argument.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The idea that none of them would inform their god of what happened, and that Dvalin's in particular wouldn't want his god to know that he was being manipulated, strains credulity.

Assume they are incommunicado until the vote resolves. It is canon they can't Send (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1023.html). The fact they need to carry supplies for Dvalin's vote pauses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html) suggests that they can't refresh spells and get some Create Food either. Thus, I'm not sure how any credulity is stretched by the further assumption that no, they can't even talk to the gods while they are in that chamber.

Grey Wolf

[Cazero]

On another note, while we admittedly can't see much of it, what with the big swirley eyes and the beard, the guard in the lower left of the last panel seems to have a rather dark skin color. Duergar, more armor, shading or some other artistic decision, I wonder?
I suggest you pay some more attention to Durkon's flashbacks. In particular to cousin Logann and his ma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1088.html). Some dwarves just are black.

[Ganbatte]

-

I don't quite get why you need be so needlessly aggressive while also making your posts unnecessarily difficult to read.

[hroþila]

OK, yet again, the vampires know exactly what will be done. They have the book outlining it in detail. You seem to keep ignoring this for some reason, so forgive me for maybe overemphasizing it, but it seems like i need to. Analogy time! I know very little about MLB rules. If I see a player holding the book of rules, being told to study them specifically, and then later during the game he pretends to throw it to the pitcher while keeping it in his glove and then tags out the runner stepping off base, I'm going to go ahead and assume that's legal instead of thinking, "What? How did the runner have no safeguards against that? THIS IS IMPLAUSIBLE!"
But if instead of doing that the player just walks up to a rival and punches them in the face, and it works, I'm going to be puzzled that the story is telling me that it was legal.

[Fyraltari]

That does not bode well, but we expected as much, didn't we?

On another note, while we admittedly can't see much of it, what with the big swirley eyes and the beard, the guard in the lower left of the last panel seems to have a rather dark skin color. Duergar, more armor, shading or some other artistic decision, I wonder?

I wouldn't know, but there were people saying this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) is what a duergar look like.

[Peelee]

I don't quite get why you need be so needlessly aggressive while also making your posts unnecessarily difficult to read.

I'm not trying to be aggressive, I'm trying to get you to respond to a very large and (IMO) insurmountable flaw in your argument. I apologize if it's coming off as aggression, I'll try to work on that. However, I do have to note that even then, despite large, bolded, italicized, underlined formatting, you still have yet to actually address it.

Why do you assume that what the vampires are doing is against the rules when they have a book of the rules?

[Cazero]

But if instead of doing that the player just walks up to a rival and punches them in the face, and it works, I'm going to be puzzled that the story is telling me that it was legal.
How about those movies where a dog, a meerkat or a friggin' panda bear play sportsball on a professionnal level?

[Fyraltari]

But if instead of doing that the player just walks up to a rival and punches them in the face, and it works, I'm going to be puzzled that the story is telling me that it was legal.

the thing is we don't know what the rules are and ultimately the only thing that matters is wether Dvalin will notice wether something is amiss*.


*And I guess wether he is LN enough to take the letter of the law above the spirit.

[Ruck]

So, let me get this straight. It's completely implausible for a demigod to not have contingencies to assure the integrity of the vote, including not scrying on the area before it takes place, but none of those things apply to the Godsmoot itself despite being presided over by many full-fledged gods of varying personalities? Ain't nobody scried the Godsmoot while the vampire was converting the entire Creed of Stone, and not a word has been said about that for years now, but y'all will be damned if Dvalin doesn't take a peek here?

There are safeguards. The actual armed guards inside the building, the companions going with the elders (presumably family who would be familiar with the elders' views and opinions), maybe more we don't know about. The complaints here aren't "there are no safeguards to protect the integrity of the vote," they're "the safeguards in place aren't designed to protect against this very specific type of intrusion." Y'all are ignoring that this is exactly why the vampires are doing this specific plan. Pick whatever the hell safeguards you want. The vampires literally read the book on the procedures. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html) They can figure out a way around the safeguards. The way we're seeing is the way they chose, so we can infer that it's working around the safeguards in place. Any complaints otherwise are spurious attempts to say "well it should be perfectly defended."

Better said than I have been saying it. No one's saying there are no contingencies at all to protect the vote, just that "preventing domination by vampires, rare creatures in this world and also creatures that wouldn't be expected to have the capacity to arrive to a midmorning meeting," isn't among them.

Also, there seems to be some insistence that despite the fact that Hel and her then-high priest were very careful about working within the rules of the Godsmoot, and Hel has stated that she can't be the first to break the rules, and that we saw the Ex-Exarch researching the rules of the Council meeting... that this breaks the rules somehow.


You mean besides the fact that the vampires announced their intention manipulate the vote?

Yes yes, the gods couldn't hear

Huh, well, the gods are the ones making the decisions, so there you go.

[Fyraltari]

Also, there seems to be some insistence that despite the fact that Hel and her then-high priest were very careful about working within the rules of the Godsmoot, and Hel has stated that she can't be the first to break the rules

The rules of the gods, not the rules of the dwarves. As far as the other gods are concerened, whatever a bunch of dwarves bigwits vote for is irrelevant and would Dvalin please hurry up, I have this great idea for a coastline!

[Ganbatte]

I'm not trying to be aggressive, I'm trying to get you to respond to a very large and (IMO) insurmountable flaw in your argument. I apologize if it's coming off as aggression, I'll try to work on that. However, I do have to note that even then, despite large, bolded, italicized, underlined formatting, you still have yet to actually address it.

Why do you assume that what the vampires are doing is against the rules when they have a book of the rules?

Because the alternatives are appalling.
Dvalin is either a zombie devoid of thinking, a cluelessly incompetent demigod who can't bother to do even the most basic of scrutiny, or the gods themselves with their over-sofisticated rules never considered the most basic concept of vote frauds.

Neither of which are particularly positive from a storytelling perspective if you ask me, see the Idiot Ball trope in action.

To any normal reader "yes destroy the world and doom us all" would at least raise a little bit of an eyebrow in the person who purports himself as protector who might maybe wanna look into things for a second before enacting that decision.

Considering how bound and respectful he is of the "Will of the Council" I would imagine he'd want to make sure he is actually following that will before killing his people. And he knows his vote is the deciding one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because the alternatives are appalling.
Dvalin is either a zombie devoid of thinking, a cluelessly incompetent demigod who can't bother to do even the most basic of scrutiny, or the gods themselves with their over-sofisticated rules never considered the most basic concept of vote frauds.

Neither of which are particularly positive from a storytelling perspective if you ask me, see the Idiot Ball trope in action.

Nope, there are far more alternatives than those three, many of which require this "idiot ball" you keep bringing up as if it was an answer.

You are failing to address any of Peelee's arguments. Especially the crucial one that is: it doesn't matter how comprehensive you write the rules, someone with access to the rulebook can always find a loophole. That does not make Dvalin a zombie nor incompetent nor the gods anything about "basic vote fraud" because, as any number of people have said ad nauseam, they didn't think to consider the danger of vampires.

ETA: heck, lets say that they did consider the danger of domination. To address it, they made the entrance doorway field cancel any and all magical mental effects, and inside the building, arcane magic cannot be cast. Loophole! If the vampire is inside, he can still dominate, because they don't use verbal components to do so, because the rule was expecting wizards, which are common, and not vampires, which are not.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

The rules of the gods, not the rules of the dwarves. As far as the other gods are concerened, whatever a bunch of dwarves bigwits vote for is irrelevant and would Dvalin please hurry up, I have this great idea for a coastline!

I don't understand how this relates to my point.


But if instead of doing that the player just walks up to a rival and punches them in the face, and it works, I'm going to be puzzled that the story is telling me that it was legal.

If I'd never played baseball before, and the person doing the punching had an extensive rulebook on the game, then I'm not sure why I should assume I know more than the expert on the rules.

[Fyraltari]

I don't understand how this relates to my point.

It's tangential. But while Hel will certainly not break any of the gods' covenants, breaking or not breaking the Council of Clan rules is more a matter of "it's not cheating if you do not get caugght (by Dvalin)".

[Ganbatte]

Nope, there are far more alternatives than those three, none of which require this "idiot ball" you keep bringing up as if it was an answer.
You are failing to address any of Peelee's arguments. Especially the crucial one that is: it doesn't matter how comprehensive you write the rules, someone with access to the rulebook can always find a loophole. That does not make Dvalin a zombie nor incompetent nor the gods anything about "basic vote fraud" because, as any number of people have said ad nauseam, they didn't think to consider the danger of vampires.

First of all, I don't "keep bringing it up", I believe this is the second time I mention it in the whole thread.
Secondly I understand that the term makes you angry for some reason but that's the name TvTropes gave to the concept of "a plan relying on the opponent's stupidity", so I can't help it.
Third, I did address all of Peelee's arguments, maybe not to your satisfaction but pretending otherwise is very dishonest of you.
Fourth, the danger of vampires is meaningless.

Domination does not equal the will of anyone, and thus Dvalin should reject that voting as per his oath.
If he doesn't it means he doesn't know what happened, meaning he's either incompetent or uncaring to check the validity of the result.

Both of these are perfectly legitimate complaints to the validity of the storytelling, regardless of what the story might reveal in the future.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If I'd never played baseball before, and the person doing the punching had an extensive rulebook on the game, then I'm not sure why I should assume I know more than the expert on the rules.

Reminds me of the first time I saw hurling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurling). I could not believe how much the players could hit each other with their sticks (including what I can only describe as "lancing"). But the Irish person next to me didn't seem overly surprised, and thus I assumed it was well within the rules.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

If I'd never played baseball before, and the person doing the punching had an extensive rulebook on the game, then I'm not sure why I should assume I know more than the expert on the rules.

Especially if nobody stops said player, and they openly said that their plan for the game is to just keep punching.

[nmphuong91]

Given that "exploit Dvalin's oath" is the backup plan in case one of Hel's demigod allies bailed (ie Hermod), I'd expect she'd want to be even more sure that it'd work than her base plan of "force a tie and stack the deck of demigod attendees". Hel did her homework and I think if there were ANY chance Dvalin would think to do anything but rubber-stamp the Council vote, no matter how suspicious, she would've figured out some other backup plan.

Think about it: what's the POINT of having a King of All Clans (Dvalin's title as a mortal) if the Council has to make literally every decision for him anyway? Why not just have the Clans answer to the Council itself? I know I'm stepping out onto a branch of speculation here, but I suspect mortal!Dvalin got his job precisely because he's an idiot who will mindlessly follow orders, no matter how absurd or obviously counter-productive. He was (in this theory) nothing more than the Council's fall guy. And, whatever powers and perspective he gained upon his apotheosis, he seems to have kept the personality flaw of "mindlessly follows orders."

Dvalin: When I was a mortal monarch, I swore an oath to obey the will of the Council on issues affecting all the clans.
Meaning, he made his own decision on many lesser issues concern a province/an aspect of society (military, education v.v)/management (military force allocation). He obey the Council on bigger question (to war or not to war). Kinda like President vs Senate, I guess.

[Fyraltari]

Reminds me of the first time I saw hurling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurling). I could not believe how much the players could hit each other with their sticks (including what I can only describe as "lancing"). But the Irish person next to me didn't seem overly surprised, and thus I assumed it was well within the rules.

Grey Wolf

Yeah, you'd be surprised to learn about the variants some games have (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

First of all, I don't "keep bringing it up", I believe this is the second time I mention it in the whole thread.

Twice is two more than you have a reason to bring it up.


Secondly I understand that the term makes you angry for some reason but that's the name TvTropes gave to the concept of "a plan relying on the opponent's stupidity", so I can't help it.
It offends me because it requires the assertion of your own conclusion. You are assuming that the only way Hel's plan can work is by stating that everyone from Dvalin on down are idiots. You have not substantiated such assumption beyond calling it "idiot ball", as if that justified it. Circular logic does indeed anger me.


Third, I did address all of Peelee's arguments, maybe not to your satisfaction but pretending otherwise is very dishonest of you.
No, you haven't. You complained about his tone, pretended he was not clear, and then failed to address the issue. Or indeed, mine.


Fourth, the danger of vampires is meaningless.
No, it is not. It is crucial to the current circumstances.


Domination does not equal the will of anyone, and thus Dvalin should reject that voting as per his oath.
If he doesn't it means he doesn't know what happened, meaning he's either incompetent or uncaring to check the validity of the result.
Or he is not in a position to verify it, trusting the rules to ensure the validity of the vote, not having considered the possibility that creatures as rare and powerful as vampires will find loopholes in the rules. Or any other of a myriad possibilities.


Both of these are perfectly legitimate complaints to the validity of the storytelling, regardless of what the story might reveal in the future.
No they are not. They are your own personal prediction, based on poor circular logic, and ignoring infinite other possibilities. If your assumptions cause you to think anyone is carrying the "idiot ball", then change your assumptions.

Grey Wolf

[Ganbatte]

Twice is two more than you have a reason to bring it up.

That is not for you to decide. I'm not interested in discussing with you if this is the attitude you're gonna take.
So long.

[Ruck]

It's tangential. But while Hel will certainly not break any of the gods' covenants, breaking or not breaking the Council of Clan rules is more a matter of "it's not cheating if you do not get caugght (by Dvalin)".

I suppose so, although it certainly seems like Hel's vampires are preparing themselves with extensive knowledge of the rules just in case.

(It's a shame Hel's vampire army isn't all women, because then I could call them "Hel's Belles.")


Yeah, you'd be surprised to learn about the variants some games have (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing).

Huh, it's not just a Wu-Tang Clan song.