Of Soulknives and Emulated Weapons(build help)

[J. Mirkson]

I've been trying to build a defensive soulknife lately and the concept I came up with was to have a war soul with a few levels in monk of the silver fist. The problem I'm running into is that emulate weapon only gives me one guantlet. I know could use augmented blade to get around that, but it would kill part of what I had planned at later levels. Is there any way around that? A feat, blade skill, class feature, anything that would let me split an emulated weapon into two? I ask that specific question as there is another build I have that I would love to be able to twf with a pair of elven thornblades.

tl,dr: Is there a way to two weapon fight with emulated weapons.

[exelsisxax]

Why do you think you can't form two gauntlets? It gives you the ability to shape the mind blade into a specific weapon if you want, it doesn't preclude having multiple. The word single refers to the feat locking in the choice, not to the number shaped. So form twin weapons, choose to form them as gauntlets.

war soul/MotSF is a poor multiclass though. Your max maneuver level is going to be low forever.

[Rynjin]

...Why not just go War Soul/Deadly Fist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/deadly-fist/)? The archetypes stack, to my knowledge.

Regardless, what you're asking for is a basic function of Mind Blade.


If the soulknife’s chosen form is a light weapon, she may choose to form two light weapons when forming her mind blade if she so chooses, but she suffers the standard penalties for two-weapon fighting.

Gauntlets are Light weapons.

[Manyasone]

war soul/MotSF is a poor multiclass though. Your max maneuver level is going to be low forever.

Agreed. Maybe a deadly fist/war soul Soulknife?

[J. Mirkson]

Odd. I've been doing some research on this, and virtually all the threads I've seen have said that emulate weapon forms only a single copy of the weapon and that it can't be split. I am thrilled if that's not the case.

I'm only planning taking 4-6 levels for monk of the silver fist, so my war soul maneuvers aren't significanly impacted. I won't know as many, but I still gain the maximum level and stances. I hardly get any MotSF maneuvers, but the draw was the defenses and stances anyway.

[Rynjin]

Odd. I've been doing some research on this, and virtually all the threads I've seen have said that emulate weapon forms only a single copy of the weapon and that it can't be split. I am thrilled if that's not the case.

I'm only planning taking 4-6 levels for monk of the silver fist, so my war soul maneuvers aren't significanly impacted. I won't know as many, but I still gain the maximum level and stances. I hardly get any MotSF maneuvers, but the draw was the defenses and stances anyway.

Monk of the Silver Fist gets zero unique stances though.Remember you can swap a Discipline with just a Trait; so get rid of one of the War Soul Disciplines you won't be using and trade it for whichever other.

[J. Mirkson]

True, I could swap it out, but then I wouldn't get the scalling damage, speed enhancement, or wis to ac. Let me put up some more details.

Race: Asura/Devil-spawn tiefling
Swap out the SLA for the racial that lets me use weapons one size category larger.
Take the focused offense blade skill to be wis sad.

So that way I'd get at least a 2d6 guantlet(2d8 if I throw on a monk's robe), wis to initator modifier, attack, damage, ac, will saves, and my gauntlet also acts as a shield with full enhancement bonus. Oh, and +10 ft to my speed. The only down side is that I have to take the flurry of fists blade skills, but I'd have to do that anyway.

Edit: Forgot that I aslo get improved shield bash and defensive expertise as bonus feats, so I don't lose my shield bonus to ac when I attack, it counts for touch ac, and I get to add my enhancement bonus as a competence bonus to my ref saves.

[Elricaltovilla]

I really think you'd be better off picking one or the other of MoMS and War Soul/Deadly Fist to play as. The two classes don't really mesh well, you're better off just sticking with one of the two depending on what your goals for the character are.

[J. Mirkson]

Upon further consideration I'd have to say I agree that I should focus on one martial maneuver class. To that end I'm going to go with MoSF, but I still want to use mind gauntlets. I think I've got a way to do that and still have (nearly) full martial progression. If I go with MoSF 4, gifted blade 6, and awakened blade 10 I get full mind blade enhancement progression, full maneuver level, maneuvers prepared, stances, and 13 out of 15 maneuvers known. I even get a few powers to manifest(expansion ftw!) that can help me buff up some. I do lose defensive expertise as a free bonus feat but the two bonus feats I get from awakened blade should make it easy to get back. And the class abilities that I gain are ridiculously powerful.

[exelsisxax]

Upon further consideration I'd have to say I agree that I should focus on one martial maneuver class. To that end I'm going to go with MoSF, but I still want to use mind gauntlets. I think I've got a way to do that and still have (nearly) full martial progression. If I go with MoSF 4, gifted blade 6, and awakened blade 10 I get full mind blade enhancement progression, full maneuver level, maneuvers prepared, stances, and 13 out of 15 maneuvers known. I even get a few powers to manifest(expansion ftw!) that can help me buff up some. I do lose defensive expertise as a free bonus feat but the two bonus feats I get from awakened blade should make it easy to get back. And the class abilities that I gain are ridiculously powerful.

Actually, you get literally none of the bold except the same number of readied maneuvers. Your IL will be -3, you only have 10 maneuvers(6 of which are capped at 2nd level), fewer stances(and at lower level) compared to a MotSF. You also don't get expansion, as 6 gifted blade levels allows you to fulfill the reqs for AB and no more, and you're losing 4 levels of blade enhancement. You can fix some of those with feats, but you don't really have many to spare if you're going to qualify for AB, pick up expansion as a bonus, and emulate gauntlets.

It's objectively worse than going either deadly warfist or straight MotSF.

[J. Mirkson]

Actually, you get literally none of the bold except the same number of readied maneuvers. Your IL will be -3, you only have 10 maneuvers(6 of which are capped at 2nd level), fewer stances(and at lower level) compared to a MotSF. You also don't get expansion, as 6 gifted blade levels allows you to fulfill the reqs for AB and no more, and you're losing 4 levels of blade enhancement. You can fix some of those with feats, but you don't really have many to spare if you're going to qualify for AB, pick up expansion as a bonus, and emulate gauntlets.

It's objectively worse than going either deadly warfist or straight MotSF.

Um? Yes, I counted the number of maneuvers wrong(should be 11), but the rest? 6 levels of soulknife + fighter's blade + path of the warrior gives me the full 20 for mind blade enhancement progression(I'll grant I should have mentioned fighter's blade.) Awakened blade also gives 8 levels of manifester progression, so yes I can get expansion along with 2 other powers. And Awakened Blade adds its full levels for the purpose of initiator level so that's MoSF(4) + SK(3) + AB (10) = 17. With an IL of 17 that means I can learn 6th level maneuvers. As for stances I get 2 from MoSF and 4 from AB(including stance of the inner eye) for a grand total of 6.

I think you might have confused that the cap is based on the class the maneuvers initiate from instead of total IL.
Relevent text from Path of War:

If you are a multiclass martial disciple, and you learn a new maneuver by attaining a new level in a martial disciple class, determine your initiator level by adding together your level in that class + 1⁄2 your levels in all other classes. Look up the result on the table below to determine the highest- level maneuvers you can take.
So really it breaks down to how a distribute my levels. If I were to go 2 SK, 4 MoSF, 4 SK, 10 AB then yes I'd limit my cap to level two until I got into AB. If I were to go 2 SK, 1 MoSF, 2 SK, 1 MoSF, 2 SK, 2 MoSF, 10 AB; then I get a more even spread. That gives me 3 1st, 2 2nd, one each 3rd through 5th, and 3 6th.

[Elricaltovilla]

Your MotSF levels provide 1/2 IL for your Soulknife levels, and your Soulknife levels provide 1/2 IL for your MotSF levels. Having a 1/2 IL (from an odd number of multiclass levels) gives you nothing.

With the level spread you've listed, you would have an IL of 15.5 if you chose to advance MotSF, or IL 15 for SK depending on which one you chose to advance with Awakened Blade.

[exelsisxax]

Um? Yes, I counted the number of maneuvers wrong(should be 11), but the rest? 6 levels of soulknife + fighter's blade + path of the warrior gives me the full 20 for mind blade enhancement progression(I'll grant I should have mentioned fighter's blade.) Awakened blade also gives 8 levels of manifester progression, so yes I can get expansion along with 2 other powers. And Awakened Blade adds its full levels for the purpose of initiator level so that's MoSF(4) + SK(3) + AB (10) = 17. With an IL of 17 that means I can learn 6th level maneuvers. As for stances I get 2 from MoSF and 4 from AB(including stance of the inner eye) for a grand total of 6.

I think you might have confused that the cap is based on the class the maneuvers initiate from instead of total IL.
Relevent text from Path of War:

So really it breaks down to how a distribute my levels. If I were to go 2 SK, 4 MoSF, 4 SK, 10 AB then yes I'd limit my cap to level two until I got into AB. If I were to go 2 SK, 1 MoSF, 2 SK, 1 MoSF, 2 SK, 2 MoSF, 10 AB; then I get a more even spread. That gives me 3 1st, 2 2nd, one each 3rd through 5th, and 3 6th.

I was discounting expansion because getting it at 12th level is rather pointless.

You misunderstand how initiator archetypes work. They are limited by class level, and PrC do not advance your archetype class level. Going AB in no way improves your MoSF max maneuver level, it just keeps your IL going and the maneuvers you get from AB are not limited by class level. It doesn't matter how you take them, if you have only 4 MoSF levels you can have MoSF maneuvers only up to 2nd level. Only the 4 AB maneuvers use the normal IL max level rules.

Does this character start at level 12? Because you're planning a 20 level build with huge gaps of terrible performance and games rarely go over 10th.

[J. Mirkson]

Your MotSF levels provide 1/2 IL for your Soulknife levels, and your Soulknife levels provide 1/2 IL for your MotSF levels. Having a 1/2 IL (from an odd number of multiclass levels) gives you nothing.

With the level spread you've listed, you would have an IL of 15.5 if you chose to advance MotSF, or IL 15 for SK depending on which one you chose to advance with Awakened Blade.

I don't understand your math here. If you follow my progression it should be 0,2,3,4,5,7,17. The first two levels of SK have no progression because there's no ability to initiate, but when I take MoSF at third they do count towards that, giving me an IL of 2. Then its 2 levels of SK for +1, +1 MoSF, +1 for the last 2 SK levels, +2 for the last MoSF, then the +10 from AB.



I was discounting expansion because getting it at 12th level is rather pointless.

You misunderstand how initiator archetypes work. They are limited by class level, and PrC do not advance your archetype class level. Going AB in no way improves your MoSF max maneuver level, it just keeps your IL going and the maneuvers you get from AB are not limited by class level. It doesn't matter how you take them, if you have only 4 MoSF levels you can have MoSF maneuvers only up to 2nd level. Only the 4 AB maneuvers use the normal IL max level rules.

Does this character start at level 12? Because you're planning a 20 level build with huge gaps of terrible performance and games rarely go over 10th.

Where does it say that archetypes are limited by class level? Is it an errata, because I can't find anything that says that in PoW or Expanded?

[exelsisxax]

Where does it say that archetypes are limited by class level? Is it an errata, because I can't find anything that says that in PoW or Expanded?


The monk of the silver fist learns additional maneuvers at higher levels, as indicated on Table: Archetype Maneuver Progression. The maximum level of maneuvers gained through monk of the silver fist levels is limited by those listed in that table as well, although this restriction does not apply to maneuvers added to his maneuvers known through other methods, such as prestige classes or the Advanced Study feat

It's a class level table. There is nothing you can do to manipulate the chart or your progression on it other than taking real class levels, and things like the Evangelist that explicitly say that you gain every single class feature. PoW PrC provide IL, not real class levels.

All other archetypes also have that same stipulation. IL doesn't matter to archetypes because their level cap is more stringent. PrC are good for archetypes because the bonus maneuvers provided by PrC features are not limited by class level, only by IL. Same with advanced study.

[J. Mirkson]

It's a class level table. There is nothing you can do to manipulate the chart or your progression on it other than taking real class levels, and things like the Evangelist that explicitly say that you gain every single class feature. PoW PrC provide IL, not real class levels.

All other archetypes also have that same stipulation. IL doesn't matter to archetypes because their level cap is more stringent. PrC are good for archetypes because the bonus maneuvers provided by PrC features are not limited by class level, only by IL. Same with advanced study.

I see where you're coming from now. You're reading it as the class levels form a hard cap and IL doen't come into play. I was reading it as the table limits you only to 1st-6th level maneuvers unless you took something that gave you one from a higher level, and that IL applied as to that table and not the standard.

Actually the War Soul and and Pathwalker archetypes don't have the line about maximum level of maneuvers. That's probably where I was getting that interpretation.

Edit:
Actually on closer examination of the relevant text it says that it limits the maximum manuever level to the table and not the class level. Nowhere does it say that IL doesn't apply when determining the max level.


The maximum level of maneuvers gained through monk of the silver fist levels is limited by those listed in that table as well, although this restriction does not apply to maneuvers added to his maneuvers known through other methods, such as prestige classes or the Advanced Study feat.
and

If you are a multiclass martial disciple, and you learn a new maneuver by attaining a new level in a martial disciple class, determine your initiator level by adding together your level in that class + 1/2 your levels in all other classes (treating racial Hit Dice as class levels for these purposes). Your initiator level for a class cannot be higher than your character level. Look up the result on the table below to determine the highest-level maneuvers you can take.

So it seems what the text of MoSF is modifying is the table that the maximum level is determined by and not that it abrogates the increasing of the IL in determination of the max level.