Rogue Special Ability (Feat)

[tstewt1921]

So an option at 10 for the rogue special ability says you can take a bonus feat. However it doesn't give any guidelines on the feat. I found this via the wiki.

At level 10, you've really come into your own. There are two important things to note here:
◾ Bonus feats, unless otherwise qualified, can ignore prerequisites (source: Monster Manual). The rogue's bonus feat from Special Ability is not otherwise qualified, and can ignore prerequisites. We use it to pick up Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. If you don't want to be like that, you can use your free feats to pick it up whenever you feel like it.


I know I will probably have to get with my DM for verification and I probably won't be able to do the above, but is that how the rogue bonus feat for the special ability can be done if it's interpreted like that or is there somewhere else that breaks down what your exact options for the feat are? It says source monster manual but I couldn't find it anywhere in there reading through the feat section. So that's probably wrong for sure lol.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Bonus feats do ignore prerequisites unless otherwise marked. It's primarily intended for monsters (for example, a 1 HD animal doesn't qualify for Weapon Finesse, but small birds should have it anyway) and classes like the monk and ranger, which get bonus feats they don't qualify for (for example, monks can be good at grappling, even if they're not dextrous enough by normal standards). But yes, that does mean an unmarked bonus feat without a strict list is wildly more powerful than a bonus feat from a list or a fighter feat.

[Troacctid]

Bonus feats marked with a B in a monster's statblock ignore prerequisites, but that's not applicable to the rogue's bonus feats. You need to meet the feat's prerequisites as normal.

[tstewt1921]

Bonus feats do ignore prerequisites unless otherwise marked. It's primarily intended for monsters (for example, a 1 HD animal doesn't qualify for Weapon Finesse, but small birds should have it anyway) and classes like the monk and ranger, which get bonus feats they don't qualify for (for example, monks can be good at grappling, even if they're not dextrous enough by normal standards). But yes, that does mean an unmarked bonus feat without a strict list is wildly more powerful than a bonus feat from a list or a fighter feat.

Wow it will be swatted down quick by my DM but dang that is powerful!

[ExLibrisMortis]

Bonus feats marked with a B in a monster's statblock ignore prerequisites, but that's not applicable to the rogue's bonus feats. You need to meet the feat's prerequisites as normal.
The superscript B only identifies bonus feats. The rogue's bonus feats are called out as such in the ability description, so the rule applying to bonus feats applies to them, as well.

[tstewt1921]

Ahh so now there is an opposite so this is a BIG RAI so it will majorly depend on the DM who just told me I would have to meet prereqs.

[tstewt1921]

To anyone's knowledge because everything I'm thinking of that gives bonus feats gives you a select list you must select from, Wizard, must be metamagic or item creation, Artificer, item creation, Warblade, as fighter, Incantrix, metamagic, I can't think of anything else though.

[Troacctid]

The superscript B only identifies bonus feats. The rogue's bonus feats are called out as such in the ability description, so the rule applying to bonus feats applies to them, as well.
It specifically identifies the bonus feats in a monster's statblock that do not need to meet prerequisites. Bonus feats that still require prerequisites don't have the B.

[Temotei]

Relevant text:

Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.

[DEMON]

The superscript B only identifies bonus feats. The rogue's bonus feats are called out as such in the ability description, so the rule applying to bonus feats applies to them, as well.

Out of curiosity, if this is the way you rule it, do you apply the same guidelines to bonus feats gained from flaws?

Take 2 flaws, get 2 epic feats in return, for example?

[tstewt1921]

Out of curiosity, if this is the way you rule it, do you apply the same guidelines to bonus feats gained from flaws?

Take 2 flaws, get 2 epic feats in return, for example?

That's a very valid point.....I'm curious about that as well.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Take 2 flaws, get 2 epic feats in return, for example?Most (but not all) epic feats are some of the worst feats in the game, far more so than many non-epic feats.

YMMV, however, based on the exact feats in question.

[DEMON]

Most (but not all) epic feats are some of the worst feats in the game, far more so than many non-epic feats.

YMMV, however, based on the exact feats in question.

Their viability is irrelevant for this discussion.

The question is "Would you allow any feat, including one that you do not meet the pre-reqs for, to by taken as the bonus feat gained from a flaw?".

[ExLibrisMortis]

It specifically identifies the bonus feats in a monster's statblock that do not need to meet prerequisites. Bonus feats that still require prerequisites don't have the B.
No, it doesn't. The B specifically identifies bonus feats, and then goes on to say that if a creature does not have the prereqs for a bonus feat, it can still use it. It does not say that superscript-B identifies the subset of bonus feats that can be used without meeting the prereqs.

Of course, there've been arguments about "gaining" (or "selecting") versus "using" a feat, and if you want to enforce that distinction, bonus feats do not allow you to ignore prerequisites at time of selection.


Out of curiosity, if this is the way you rule it, do you apply the same guidelines to bonus feats gained from flaws?

Take 2 flaws, get 2 epic feats in return, for example?
That would be the baseline, yes. Though with two caveats:
(1) If it were up to me, there'd be no epic rules, or heavily revised epic rules. I'm not a fan of the current format.
(2) I would propose a difference between "bonus feats" (the ones that don't require prerequisites) and "additional feats" (the ones that require prerequisites), and change some of the class features that currently grant bonus feats to provide additional feats instead. Depending on the power level of the table, that might include all bonus feats, or only some. I think the rogue isn't too game-breaking, given how late those special abilities arrive, but flaws and martial monks can be pretty unbalancing. I would make it clear that it's a houserule, of course.

Besides balance, I think prereq-free bonus feats at very low levels are a bit unelegant, and cheapen the idea of prerequisites. I think that WotC should've made a distinction between "bonus feats" and "additional feats". But they didn't, so... houserule or suck it up, basically.

[Troacctid]

No, it doesn't. The B specifically identifies bonus feats, and then goes on to say that if a creature does not have the prereqs for a bonus feat, it can still use it. It does not say that superscript-B identifies the subset of bonus feats that can be used without meeting the prereqs.
The Monster Manual specifically only uses it for bonus feats that don't require meeting the prerequisites. Take a look at the monsters that have class levels. The vampire monk's bonus feats have the B, but the lich's don't. All the various fighters are missing it too.

[InvisibleBison]

Even if the rogue's bonus feat bypasses prerequisites, you still can't take Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting at 10th level, because the requirement that you have to be an epic character to take an epic feat isn't one of the feat's prerequisites.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The Monster Manual specifically only uses it for bonus feats that don't require meeting the prerequisites. Take a look at the monsters that have class levels. The vampire monk's bonus feats have the B, but the lich's don't. All the various fighters are missing it too.
Actually, the vampires show that WotC applied their superscript-B inconsistently.

The human vampire fighter 5 has its bonus feats (from the template, not the fighter feats) marked with Bs, even though the template clearly states that you must meet the prerequisites to gain them, and the base creature does qualify for them, having 13 Dexterity before the template is applied. Meanwhile, the half-elf vampire monk 9/shadowdancer 4 has only its monk bonus feats marked with Bs, not the template-granted feats (it's missing two feats, too).

There are a few other inconsistencies, such as the skeleton's Improved Initiative and the zombie's Toughness not being marked with a B (and not being called out as bonus feats), despite the fact that mindless creatures cannot have feats if they're not bonus feats, and several 1 HD animals having unmarked Weapon Finesse despite missing the base attack requirement.

The DMG sample NPCs don't use the superscript-B system, either.


I think that, on the whole, the B is purely an indicator for bonus feats that aren't already identifiable as such, sometimes used redundantly (or wrongly), but not defining an exclusive category of prerequisite-free feats.