So, what is the thing with Clockworks' damage immunity?

[Marcloure]

I mean, they are CR 1–5, and flat out immune to weapon attacks that aren't magical or adamantine. Really? How the heck is a 1st–3rd level party supposed to have adamantine weapons? And they are also resistant to magic.

And then I realized they are CR 1 because they have low HP and attack and damage, but they are not supposed to be put against low level characters. That is very misleading. Like, really misleading.

They either should be of higher CR (and thus have appropriate HP and offense), or not be immune to weapon attacks. Lesson of the day: just don't trust CR. Especially the lower ones.

[Twigwit]

Lesson of the day: just don't trust CR. Especially the lower ones.

Wise. As a DM I find creatures with an overvalued CR more useful than deadly low CR creatures. The players feel great for killing something “above their pay grade,” and I get to inject them with an xp boost to get to higher levels with fewer uninteresting grind fights. Clockworks are the opposite, so they’re just rubish monster I’ll probably never field at the PCs.

[Rukelnikov]

Check out the Quicklings

[Kane0]

Well to be fair, there is a precedent.

http://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/467547-emperor_ren/547/36/clockwork_horror_display.jpg

[JoeJ]

They're not immune to fire.

[Lunali]

CRs are based on the expected damage output and expected lifespan based on attack bonus/save DC, damage per turn, hp, and AC. They don't take into account any special abilities or traits the monster may have and a lot of them don't even hold to those CR guidelines.

[Tanarii]

IMO CR 1-3 aren't really a good battle for level 1-3 anyway. You're better off using multiple low level enemies.

But if you want a good boss, sounds like you found one. :smallwink:


They don't take into account any special abilities or traits the monster may have [...]Um. Yes they do.

Specifically, immunities multiply the effective HPs of a CR 1-4 by x2 for effective defensive CR.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

"Don't blindly trust CR without actually reading the monster's abilities and considering how they interact with your specific party" is a good lesson.

Another decent lesson is "always carry Alchemists' Fire".

[Zalabim]

There's also the lowly jackalwere. Though vulnerable to silver instead, it's just CR 1/4. Vulnerable to fire too. Of course, most things are. That's why mobs carry pitchforks and torches. It's not for the lighting. Well, not that kind of lighting.

[Lombra]

I mean even the manual itself suggests to read the statblocks before building an encounter to make sure that it can be beaten without trusting only XP or CR.

[Bloodcloud]

Bladelocks get a magic weapon at level 3. Magic weapon is a 2nd level spell. Shilelagh is a cantrip that grants a magic weapon, and devotion paladin can make their weapon magical.

Also, are those homebrew? That MIGHT be why. Only clockwork with damage immunity I find are homebrew.

[Keravath]

I can't actually find any clockworks in the Monster Manual. Where do they come from?

The only sources I seem to be able to find on the internet are 3rd party or homebrew. So if you are wondering about their damage immunities you might want to just contact the author since they just made them up. Also, keep in mind that if the CR of official creatures is bad ... there is no guarantee that the CR of player created creatures is any better.

[vexedart]

Moon touched weapon from Xanathars is an affordable common magic weapon at low levels

[Snowbluff]

Well to be fair, there is a precedent.

http://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/467547-emperor_ren/547/36/clockwork_horror_display.jpg

This. I thought I wandered into the 3e forum.

These are the clockwork horrors. Low level constructs that had abilities far outside their would suggest. The Adamantine had Implosion and Disjunction, 9th level spells, and disintegrate, at CR 9. It could easily destroy all of your magic items. At will.

[Temperjoke]

Bladelocks get a magic weapon at level 3. Magic weapon is a 2nd level spell. Shilelagh is a cantrip that grants a magic weapon, and devotion paladin can make their weapon magical.

Also, are those homebrew? That MIGHT be why. Only clockwork with damage immunity I find are homebrew.


I can't actually find any clockworks in the Monster Manual. Where do they come from?

The only sources I seem to be able to find on the internet are 3rd party or homebrew. So if you are wondering about their damage immunities you might want to just contact the author since they just made them up. Also, keep in mind that if the CR of official creatures is bad ... there is no guarantee that the CR of player created creatures is any better.

The Clockworks are in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, and yeah, they do have damage immunity.

[Zanthy1]

The Clockworks are in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, and yeah, they do have damage immunity.

Where in Tome of Foes? Cause the only clockwork anything I can find is the Clockwork Kraken in the Kwalish adventure module (which is CR 10)

[No brains]

Shove one off a roof.

[OvisCaedo]

Where in Tome of Foes? Cause the only clockwork anything I can find is the Clockwork Kraken in the Kwalish adventure module (which is CR 10)

I tried filtering on a site to just constructs from the book. Looks like the hangup is that they don't actually have clockwork in the name, but I'm seeing Bronze scout, iron cobra, oaken bolter, and stone defender as some low level physical-immune constructs. And a few much higher level ones, too. I have no idea if any of them are ACTUALLY clockwork, mind you.

[JoeJ]

Where in Tome of Foes? Cause the only clockwork anything I can find is the Clockwork Kraken in the Kwalish adventure module (which is CR 10)

MToF pages 124-126. Clockworks is the category name, the individual monsters are the bronze scout, iron cobra, oaken bolter, and stone defender.

[MaxWilson]

I mean, they are CR 1–5, and flat out immune to weapon attacks that aren't magical or adamantine. Really? How the heck is a 1st–3rd level party supposed to have adamantine weapons? And they are also resistant to magic.

And then I realized they are CR 1 because they have low HP and attack and damage, but they are not supposed to be put against low level characters. That is very misleading. Like, really misleading.

They either should be of higher CR (and thus have appropriate HP and offense), or not be immune to weapon attacks. Lesson of the day: just don't trust CR. Especially the lower ones.

The lesson is correct (Intellect Devourer is another one) but Clockwork Horrors aren't impossible to kill. They tend to be light on HP, and they're not immune to any magical damage except poison. You should be able to just kill them with Fire Bolt or Toll the Dead or Sacred Weapon or Magic Weapon or whatever. Magic is so ubiquitous in 5E that it should be a rare party who can't harm these guys at 3rd level. Anyone who doesn't have magical weapons can either grapple/prone (or grapple + Dodge) or throw oil flasks or even just Help the guys who are making cantrip/magical weapon attacks.

I can see them being pretty tough for a 1st level party, but 1st level parties are notoriously fragile--everything is tough for them, and then they level up and aren't 1st level any more.

Even a first level wizard with Fire Bolt, Longstrider, and Expeditious Retreat could kill a CR 4 Iron Cobra all by himself if the rest of the party stays out of the way. It would just take a minute or two. Clockwork horrors are gimmick monsters, one-trick ponies that are straightforward to deal with once you understand what you're dealing with. (Not like e.g. Banshees or Mind Flayer Arcanists.)

[Zanthy1]

MToF pages 124-126. Clockworks is the category name, the individual monsters are the bronze scout, iron cobra, oaken bolter, and stone defender.

Gotcha thank you

[Boci]

Clockwork horrors are gimmick monsters, one-trick ponies that are straightforward to deal with once you understand what you're dealing with.

That's an oversimplification that dissmises the potential problems. Specifically:

1. Only wizards and divine casters can change their spell lists to any notable degree. Sorcerors, warlocks and bards cannot really act on this information. Saying a wizard can defeat them with Longstrider and Expeditious Retreat is especiallyu useless on any level other than theorycrafting, since no wizard would prepare those to spells together blind at low level, and even once they know what their dealing with, they may well not have both those spells in their spellbook.
2. Even figured out, the immunities will still almost certainly leave certain members of the party unable to contribute.

So yes. Clockwork horrors are not "Auto game over/TPK", but saying immunity to all weapon damage, which their immunity could easily be as far as a low level party is concerned, is a straightforward thing to deal with kinda overlooks some importanty factos.

For example, the earthen scout has a +2 wisdom mod and magic resistance, so Toll the Dead is going to deal on average 6.5 damage every 4 rounds. At 18 HP that's 12 rounds to kill it. If the divine caster has sacred flame its still going to take very long, and this is a single encounter, that isn't even taking the scouts burrowing ability into consideration.

[MaxWilson]

That's an oversimplification that dissmises the potential problems. Specifically:

1. Only wizards and divine casters can change their spell lists to any notable degree. Sorcerors, warlocks and bards cannot really act on this information. Saying a wizard can defeat them with Longstrider and Expeditious Retreat is especiallyu useless on any level other than theorycrafting, since no wizard would prepare those to spells together blind at low level

I chose them specifically because they are common low-level picks IME. Not for all players but for savvy players in deadly campaigns. These spells are not specific to Clockwork Horrors--they keep you alive against lots of low-level threats unless the DM does something weird and uncool like put one-way teleportals in a low-level adventure or make monsters appear right in your face at short range. (Note: don't pre-cast Longstrider, it's too expensive. But it's good to have it available.)


, and even once they know what their dealing with, they may well not have both those spells in their spellbook.
2. Even figured out, the immunities will still almost certainly leave certain members of the party unable to contribute.

So yes. Clockwork horrors are not "Auto game over/TPK", but saying immunity to all weapon damage, which their immunity could easily be as far as a low level party is concerned, is a straightforward thing to deal with kinda overlooks some importanty factos.

The goal is to kill the monsters and take their treasure, without dying. (That's oversimplified but still.) Just as it isn't a problem for one PC to pick the lock on a treasure chest, it isn't a problem for one PC to kill a certain monster. There's no obligation to make every single activity in the whole game a group effort.

Rogues conduct recon. Wizards deal with magical creatures like clockwork horrors. Sharpshooter fighters pick off hobgoblin archers behind arrow slits. Specialization is not a problem.

[Boci]

I chose them specifically because they are common low-level picks IME. Not for all players but for savvy players in deadly campaigns. These spells are not specific to Clockwork Horrors--they keep you alive against lots of low-level threats unless the DM does something weird and uncool like put one-way teleportals in a low-level adventure or make monsters appear right in your face at short range. (Note: don't pre-cast Longstrider, it's too expensive. But it's good to have it available.)

That seems like a great way of optimizing yourself into a TPK, because your taking useful spells to keep you alieve at the cost of useful spells that actually impact the cnounter. I've had many encounters where a sleep was sealed it and if the wizard had been casting longstride and ex. retreat. Sounds like the capaigns you've been playing are less deadly, if encounter are balanced to allow a wizard to only contribute cantrips and yet the party still pulls through.

And hmmm, make monsters appear right in your face? Like, a bronze scout's burrow ability?

Also, the bronze scout has a +2 wisdom mod and magic resistance, so Toll the Dead, a cantrip you mentioned for dealing with it, is going to deal on average 6.5 damage every 4 rounds. At 18 HP that's 12 rounds to kill it. If the divine caster has sacred flame its still going to take very long, and this is a single encounter, that isn't even taking the scouts burrowing ability into consideration.


The goal is to kill the monsters and take their treasure, without dying. (That's oversimplified but still.) Just as it isn't a problem for one PC to pick the lock on a treasure chest

Comparing combat to a single ability check is, at best, a very YMMV philosohpy.

[MaxWilson]

That seems like a great way of optimizing yourself into a TPK, because your taking useful spells to keep you alieve at the cost of useful spells that actually impact the cnounter.

You're taking spells to solve certain kinds of encounters. That's an impact. If a first-level wizard memorizes e.g. Expeditious Retreat, Longstrider, Sleep, and Shield (with Unseen Servant on tap as a ritual) he'll be reasonably-well-set for solving many first-level adventures. Sure, sometimes you TPK anyway, but if you think "staying alive" and "beating clockwork horrors" aren't useful things to do in an encounter, I don't know what you're doing on this thread.


I've had many encounters where a sleep was sealed it and if the wizard had been casting longstride and ex. retreat. Sounds like the capaigns you've been playing are less deadly, if encounter are balanced to allow a wizard to only contribute cantrips and yet the party still pulls through.

I said, don't pre-cast Longstrider--it's too expensive. Cast spells when they make sense.


And hmmm, make monsters appear right in your face? Like, a bronze scout's burrow ability?

I was more thinking of a certain DM style where Helmed Horrors appear around the party (regardless of party formation and spacing) despite not having any actual stealth or teleportation capabilities. I'm AFB but if a Bronze Scout has a burrow capabilities then that is totally legit, and is also a case where you might really, really want to have Expeditious Retreat memorized. (Depends on the geometry though.) Staying alive is good.


Also, the bronze scout has a +2 wisdom mod and magic resistance, so Toll the Dead, a cantrip you mentioned for dealing with it, is going to deal on average 6.5 damage every 4 rounds. At 18 HP that's 12 rounds to kill it.

You realize you're just agreeing with what I already wrote? 12 rounds = 72 seconds = 1 minute and 12 seconds. The fight will be over in a couple of minutes, as I said in post #20:


Even a first level wizard with Fire Bolt, Longstrider, and Expeditious Retreat could kill a CR 4 Iron Cobra all by himself if the rest of the party stays out of the way. It would just take a minute or two. Clockwork horrors are gimmick monsters, one-trick ponies that are straightforward to deal with once you understand what you're dealing with. (Not like e.g. Banshees or Mind Flayer Arcanists.)

If you are going out of your way to disagree with me by showing numbers that agree with me, maybe you need to re-read what I actually wrote.

[Boci]

You're taking spells to solve certain kinds of encounters. That's an impact. If a first-level wizard memorizes e.g. Expeditious Retreat, Longstrider, Sleep, and Shield (with Unseen Servant on tap as a ritual) he'll be reasonably-well-set for solving many first-level adventures. Sure, sometimes you TPK anyway, but if you think "staying alive" and "beating clockwork horrors" aren't useful things to do in an encounter, I don't know what you're doing on this thread.

The problem is the opportunity cost. Yes, staying alieve is good, but staying at the cost of 75% of your spells readied, and 33%-66% of your spells for the day (you have 3 non-cantrip spells as a lezel 1 wizard, even if you can only cast 2 per encounter) is generally not worth it, and speak to a more lenient encounter design if they let the wizard get away with that.

For example with the above allotment, what do you do again sleep immune enemies? They're not that rare (they don't even need to be immune, one high HP sleep suseptible enemy makes using the spell risky), and normally a wizard can have a second option ready for them, but you've ysing so many spells for defence that you have only cantrips left. Relying for sleep as your only option to impact a encounter in a single round is nor a good idea.

A speed turtle may be more impressive and fun than an AC turtle, but the core problem still remains: your sacrificing a lot of offensive and utility options to be defensive, its often unneccissary. You're contributing such little combat on a round to round basis that the enemies wouldn't attack you even if they could.


You realize you're just agreeing with what I already wrote? 12 rounds = 72 seconds = 1 minute and 12 seconds. The fight will be over in a couple of minutes, as I said in post #20:

If you are going out of your way to disagree with me by showing numbers that agree with me, maybe you need to re-read what I actually wrote.

Bronze scout is CR 1, iron cobra is CR 4. You might want to check such details before arrogantly proclaiming my posts agree with you.

[Mellack]

That's an oversimplification that dissmises the potential problems. Specifically:


2. Even figured out, the immunities will still almost certainly leave certain members of the party unable to contribute.
.

I disagree with this. Everyone will be able to contribute, but not in the way they might commonly. The same thing as when a fire sorcerer comes across fire immune foes. If the martial has no way of dealing direct damage they can still grapple or physically block the creature, they can use the help action, or they push them into a fire. Just because the standard tactics might not work in this particular fight does not make them completely useless.

[Boci]

I disagree with this. Everyone will be able to contribute, but not in the way they might commonly. The same thing as when a fire sorcerer comes across fire immune foes. If the martial has no way of dealing direct damage they can still grapple or physically block the creature, they can use the help action, or they push them into a fire. Just because the standard tactics might not work in this particular fight does not make them completely useless.

True, but there are some variables here. Unless the party IDs it, which is far from reliable given how such checks work, the martial have to first attack and hit it to realize weapons won't harm it. That's minumum one rounds worth of actions gone, possible two if they miss. Then there's the fact that the bronze scout has an AoE centre on itself that deals 4d6 lightning, dex half. They can only do this 1 per encounter, but if the martial doesn't know that, they might not want to stick around adjacent, which grappling would require.

Sure, unable to contribute was hyperbole and I retract that, but the circamstances could easily lead to a martial being barely able to contribute, and that might not be fun for them.

[MaxWilson]

Bronze scout is CR 1, iron cobra is CR 4. You might want to check such details before arrogantly proclaiming my posts agree with you.

An Int 16 wizard with Fire Bolt will do 3.58 DPR on average against the Iron Cobra's AC 13, so its 45 HP will last... twelve and a half rounds. (Against Toll the Dead it will last 20 rounds.)

If you're trying to say I overestimated your intelligence and that you weren't actually aware of how quickly the Iron Cobra would die, well, I guess you'd know better than I would what you are ignorant of. I thought you realized that Iron Cobras and Bronze Scouts aren't all that different but maybe you weren't.

[Boci]

If you're trying to say I overestimated your intelligence and that you weren't actually aware of how quickly the Iron Cobra would die, well, I guess you'd know better than I would what you are ignorant of. I thought you realized that Iron Cobras and Bronze Scouts aren't all that different but maybe you weren't.

You're confused. I never disputed your numbers against iron cobra. Feel free to quote me doing so. I did in fact acknowledged it worked but pointed out that it required a spell selection required the wizard to specialize, being a turtle by virtue of speed and unable to handle other encounters.

Try again?

[Mellack]

True, but there are some variables here. Unless the party IDs it, which is far from reliable given how such checks work, the martial have to first attack and hit it to realize weapons won't harm it. That's minumum one rounds worth of actions gone, possible two if they miss. Then there's the fact that the bronze scout has an AoE centre on itself that deals 4d6 lightning, dex half. They can only do this 1 per encounter, but if the martial doesn't know that, they might not want to stick around adjacent, which grappling would require.

Sure, unable to contribute was hyperbole and I retract that, but the circamstances could easily lead to a martial being barely able to contribute, and that might not be fun for them.

Which is no different than a fire sorcerer coming across a fire immune creature. They might not ID it. They might have to hit it first to realize. They might miss with something like Scorching ray and even have to try multiple times. They may even waste a spell slot to do so, making it worse on them than a martial. Yet I have not seen people suggest that it would be unfair to occasionally use such creatures. This is the same.

[Boci]

Which is no different than a fire sorcerer coming across a fire immune creature. They might not ID it. They might have to hit it first to realize. They might miss with something like Scorching ray and even have to try multiple times. They may even waste a spell slot to do so, making it worse on them than a martial. Yet I have not seen people suggest that it would be unfair to occasionally use such creatures. This is the same.

No it isn't. The fire sorceror chose to take only fire spells (nor is that the only way to play a fire sorceror, you are allowed other energy types), the martial character didn't choose to not have a magical or adamantium weapon.

The equivilant would be a CR 1 immune to cantrips and spells below 3rd level creature, which people may well object to.

[Temperjoke]

edit, nevermind

I mean, it's realistically the DMs choice whether to send these against a party that isn't prepared for them, just like everything else. Isn't it part of a DM's job to actually balance stuff like this against what a party can do?

[animewatcha]

I don't have access to any of the books, but what about grapple one scout/whatever to smash it ( I know no proficiency added ) into another? I'm from 3.5e, but usually these clockworks are in groups and/or there are 'similar' parts nearby from previous smashed bots.

[Knaight]

Beyond the mechanics here, the flavor just doesn't make sense. An incorporeal creature being immune to weapon damage makes sense, but a clockwork construct? Physical trauma absolutely should harm them. Yes, they're made of a tough material but to take the extreme example if you drop a thousand pound rock on them from atop a hundred pound canyon they should die. Especially if we're meant to interpret "clockwork" at all literally, and they have internal gears or something.


Moon touched weapon from Xanathars is an affordable common magic weapon at low levels

This only helps if you're in a position of knowing you'll be fighting them and get to specifically prepare for it - much like MaxWilson's example, where if you control the terms of engagement you can wreck them. That's not necessarily the case though, and if the clockworks get to set the terms of engagement and use their strengths against the PCs they're disproportionately nasty.

[JackPhoenix]

No it isn't. The fire sorceror chose to take only fire spells (nor is that the only way to play a fire sorceror, you are allowed other energy types), the martial character didn't choose to not have a magical or adamantium weapon.

The equivilant would be a CR 1 immune to cantrips and spells below 3rd level creature, which people may well object to.

But they did choose not to pack few flasks of oil and torch.

Flask of oil adds 5 to the next fire damage taken. Torch causes 1+Str fire damage on hit. While both are improvised weapons, which lowers the chance to hit, assuming you have a rogue and a fighter (one with Dex 16 to throw oil, other with Str 16 to poke with torch), it takes 2 hits from both to take down Bronze Scout. If the party spellcasters contribute, they'll kill it even faster, and oil also works with Fire Bolt. And it's not especially expensive.. at 1 sp per flask of oil, it's only twice the price of a single arrow or crossbow bolt.

[Unoriginal]

Beyond the mechanics here, the flavor just doesn't make sense. An incorporeal creature being immune to weapon damage makes sense, but a clockwork construct? Physical trauma absolutely should harm them. Yes, they're made of a tough material but to take the extreme example if you drop a thousand pound rock on them from atop a hundred pound canyon they should die. Especially if we're meant to interpret "clockwork" at all literally, and they have internal gears or something.

They have immunity against weapons, not against environmental damage.

ToA has a Weretiger who is terrified of heights because they're not immune to fall damages.


Otherwise, like JackPhoenix said, a Bronze Scout can be defeated by having a few torches and lantern fuel. Adventurers know that if their weapons don't work, switching damage type is the best solution.

Otherwise it's like claiming that trolls are OP because they'll keep coming back up unless they're burned or acid'd.

Puzzle bosses can be frustrating when you don't get the puzzle, but it doesn't make them not fit the CR.

[Boci]

Puzzle bosses can be frustrating when you don't get the puzzle, but it doesn't make them not fit the CR.

It is worth noting, the the bronze scout puzzle monster equivilant for a caster isn't the troll or something fire immune, its a CR creature with a 100ft anti magic aura that prevents spell casting of cantrips and 1st level spells and suppresses those already cast when they enter.

Everything said about what the martial character can do can be said here to. The caster can still use the help action, they can grab (maybe not as viable for them, but some casters can grab just as well as a dex-sed fighter can), or they can splash oil on it and then hit it with a torch. Hell, they can draw a weapon and swing it.

And yet, this hypothetical puzzle monster doesn't exist. And not just because players may abuse it by capturing one and tying it to a stick.

[Unoriginal]

It is worth noting, the the bronze scout puzzle monster equivilant for a caster isn't the troll or something fire immune, its a CR creature with a 100ft anti magic aura that prevents spell casting of cantrips and 1st level spells and suppresses those already cast when they enter.

Everything said about what the martial character can do can be said here to. The caster can still use the help action, they can grab (maybe not as viable for them, but some casters can grab just as well as a dex-sed fighter can), or they can splash oil on it and then hit it with a torch. Hell, they can draw a weapon and swing it.

Those two situations wouldn't be perfectly symmetrical, because martials are made to generally be better at the "everyone can do it" stuff, while casters are much more reliant on their class features specifically for efficiency.

Most likely, the equivalent would be a low-CR monster which got the same magic immunity as the Rakshasa for cantrips and 1rst level spells.



And yet, this hypothetical puzzle monster doesn't exist. And not just because players may abuse it by capturing one and tying it to a stick.

And the Bronze Scout didn't exist before the Mordenkainen's. What's your point?

The Rakshasa exists in 5e since the MM, and it's well-known their CR is only as high as it is because of the magic immunity.

Golems were the high-CR counterpart of the Bronze Scout. What's to say that the Rakshasa wouldn't get a low-CR counterpart?


A Bronze Scout has an AC low enough most lvl 1 character can hit it more than 50% of the time. It has less HPs than a CR 1/2 Gnoll mook. Their stats aren't particularly high. And while its attacks are pretty decent, they're not that much of a threat against a full adventuring group.

Possibly frustrating? For sure. But that doesn't mean the calculations were inaccurate.

[Boci]

Golems were the high-CR counterpart of the Bronze Scout. What's to say that the Rakshasa wouldn't get a low-CR counterpart?

When it does, the puzzle monster situation will be a little more equal. Until then...


A Bronze Scout has an AC low enough most lvl 1 character can hit it more than 50% of the time. It has less HPs than a CR 1/2 Gnoll mook. Their stats aren't particularly high. And while its attacks are pretty decent, they're not that much of a threat against a full adventuring group.

This is when the previously mentioned fluff head scratchers emerge. Its body is made of a material that completly turns aside a greatsword or maul, and yet is has less HP than a gnoll mook and the AC of an unarmed human with 16 dex. By wearing leather armour, this human can have a higher AC.

Sure, it can be defeated. I just feel "its a puzzle monster" can often be used to excuse questionable monster design and sweep all such concerns under the rug.

[Unoriginal]

Sure, it can be defeated. I just feel "its a puzzle monster" can often be used to excuse questionable monster design and sweep all such concerns under the rug.

It can, but in this case it's an objective description. It can only be defeated if you find the right tactic (which isn't particularly difficult) and once you do it's a pretty easy fight.

[Boci]

It can, but in this case it's an objective description.

I don't disagree with that, I just disagree that a weapon immune CR 1 creature is a good puzzle monster (plus the fluff problems of this particular one). The werewolf is CR 2 and largely the same, but at least its sentient, you can talk to it (though granted if you try to talk to it after trying to cut off its head and finding your weapon does nothing, then the tone of the conversation may be strained).

Or if this is what an acceptable puzzle monster can be, then there should also be that CR 1 creature with the rakasha immunity.

[Zalabim]

It is worth noting, the the bronze scout puzzle monster equivilant for a caster isn't the troll or something fire immune, its a CR creature with a 100ft anti magic aura that prevents spell casting of cantrips and 1st level spells and suppresses those already cast when they enter.

Everything said about what the martial character can do can be said here to. The caster can still use the help action, they can grab (maybe not as viable for them, but some casters can grab just as well as a dex-sed fighter can), or they can splash oil on it and then hit it with a torch. Hell, they can draw a weapon and swing it.

And yet, this hypothetical puzzle monster doesn't exist. And not just because players may abuse it by capturing one and tying it to a stick.

Those two situations wouldn't be perfectly symmetrical, because martials are made to generally be better at the "everyone can do it" stuff, while casters are much more reliant on their class features specifically for efficiency.
Especially, a character who uses strength and finds their weapons don't work can use torches well. A character who uses dexterity and finds their weapons don't work can throw oil flasks well. A character who uses intelligence and finds one spell doesn't work can try a different spell. If all spells don't work, then there isn't an existing improvised intelligence attack they can use.

[MaxWilson]

No it isn't. The fire sorceror chose to take only fire spells (nor is that the only way to play a fire sorceror, you are allowed other energy types), the martial character didn't choose to not have a magical or adamantium weapon.

He chose to play a human Samurai instead of a human Eldritch Knight or Devotion Paladin or Zealot Barbarian or High Elf Samurai or any of the other martial warriors with access to magical attacks.

Plus all the other purely nonmagical options that have been mentioned repeatedly in this thread, from fire to acid to (technically) falling.

Incidentally I also have no problem with a hypothetical CR 1 that is immune to magic.

[MaxWilson]

It is worth noting, the the bronze scout puzzle monster equivilant for a caster isn't the troll or something fire immune, its a CR creature with a 100ft anti magic aura that prevents spell casting of cantrips and 1st level spells and suppresses those already cast when they enter.

Everything said about what the martial character can do can be said here to. The caster can still use the help action, they can grab (maybe not as viable for them, but some casters can grab just as well as a dex-sed fighter can), or they can splash oil on it and then hit it with a torch. ----, they can draw a weapon and swing it.

And yet, this hypothetical puzzle monster doesn't exist. And not just because players may abuse it by capturing one and tying it to a stick.

No, not because of balance though, because it's doesn't fit the genre. D&D has always had lots of magic-immune monsters even at low level (drow warriors!), but antimagic-zone-creating monsters are much rarer, and *selective* anti-magic like you are postulating just isn't a thing at all due to gameworld logic: when magic is off, it's OFF.

I'm sure such a monster exists somewhere (mini-beholder?), but it's not idiomatic the way golems and weapon-resistant creatures are. There's no reason you can't create one, but you can't use the fact that they don't already exist as a proof of anything except that this isn't Star Wars.




Especially, a character who uses strength and finds their weapons don't work can use torches well. A character who uses dexterity and finds their weapons don't work can throw oil flasks well. A character who uses intelligence and finds one spell doesn't work can try a different spell. If all spells don't work, then there isn't an existing improvised intelligence attack they can use.

To be fair though, many wizards have pretty good Str or Dex, and stat mods don't matter much against AC 13 anyway. There's no reason they couldn't fire a crossbow at the hypothetical magic-suppressing ysalamiri, or hit it with their staff, or Help or throw fire.

[JackPhoenix]

No, not because of balance though, because it's doesn't fit the genre. D&D has always had lots of magic-immune monsters even at low level (drow warriors!), but antimagic-zone-creating monsters are much rarer, and *selective* anti-magic like you are postulating just isn't a thing at all due to gameworld logic: when magic is off, it's OFF.

Not entirely true. Globe of Invulnerability stops only certain levels of spells, as do Rakshasas (though the later is personal rather than in an area, and the former stops spellcasting from outside the barrier, but you can still cast spells inside).

That said, I wish there were more monsters with outright magic immunity.

[Snowbluff]

Incidentally I also have no problem with a hypothetical CR 1 that is immune to magic.

While I generally prefer no martial and magic immune monster, this would be utterly broken. At higher levels, splashing entire groups of mooks with an AoE is a type of encounter that pops up every once in a while. Making a bunch of low Cr enemies that could be made into a mob would just turn into a slog. After this, there might be problems with what constitutes "magic," as it might include magical weapons.

Trolls and Vampires are probably better models for enemies with specific weaknesses than clockworks and werewolves. Instead being immune, they have much more effective HP when they're not being attacked with a specific method.

Also, if your celestial warlock is hiding instead of delivering that all important Radiant damage to the vampire boss, then smack em for me. *has horrible Best Friends Forever flashback.*

[MaxWilson]

While I generally prefer no martial and magic immune monster, this would be utterly broken. At higher levels, splashing entire groups of mooks with an AoE is a type of encounter that pops up every once in a while. Making a bunch of low Cr enemies that could be made into a mob would just turn into a slog.

So maybe then don't use these hypothetical monsters in groups so large that you feel like it's a slog?

There are already plenty of CR 1/4ish monsters today that are practically immune to AoEs under the right circumstances (50 Goblins in the dark shooting arrows in the forest at night before using Nimble Escape to hide, every round--you'll be lucky to hit 20% of the goblins with one Fireball because they have no reason to clump up in Fireball formation). Is this a problem? No. DMs simply don't use these monsters in these scenarios if they don't want to.

The fact that you could theoretically design an un-fun encounter with a monster doesn't demonstrate a problem with the hypothetical monster.