My players are more clever than I am.

[Pagrek]

So I am running Rise of Tiamat for Adventurer's League and I'm having a blast. The problem is we're coming up to Tiamat herself and thanks to the season 8 changes both my wizards have Staffs of the Magi. Thank you for that Adventurer's League, what my wizards needed was in fact, more power. Anyway, they were discussing plans for dealing with Tiamat while making a simulacrum and came up with the idea of sending a simulacra in with one of the staffs and instructions to break it (dealing 8*# of charges left in staff max 50) damage. Since I have two wizard players, that means two opportunities for this to work. Now I love my players and respect their creativity, but this would potentially trivialize a climactic encounter. I don't want to just say no, but I'm having trouble thinking about countermeasures to this tactic.

Any thoughts on possible strategies?

[Mandarin]

Personally, I would totally allow that! Now, I would also probably add some kind of strange magical imbalance as a result of breaking the staff of magi next to such a creature as Tiamat.... perhaps a portal opens up and pulls them into another realm, or it sets off a chain reaction that you can add into another section. I really try to never say no or shutdown an idea... but there is consequences to every action. BAHAHAHA

[sithlordnergal]

I'd say...allow them to do it and don't sweat it. Use up two of of Tiamat's Legendary Resistances if you need to, she can tank 400 points of damage. It'll allow the players to feel like a pair of badasses, and still give the others a challenging fight. Think about it this way: These two wizards are spending 24 treasure points each, which is equivalent to 12 hours of actual game play, to do a grand total of 400 damage to Tiamat by destroying not one, but two extremely powerful magical items and spending 1,500 gp each.

To be honest, I think the wizards are losing out on that deal.

[Rukelnikov]

Have that Tiamat die in piles of snow only to reveal that it was Tiamat's Simulacra!

Use the casting dragons variant, imo thats as much a "variant rule" as multiclassing.

Since its Tiamat we're talking about don't limit yourself with 4th lvl spells, she should have Wish among her spells.

[sithlordnergal]

Have that Tiamat die in piles of snow only to reveal that it was Tiamat's Simulacra!

Use the casting dragons variant, imo thats as much a "variant rule" as multiclassing.

Since its Tiamat we're talking about don't limit yourself with 4th lvl spells, she should have Wish among her spells.

Its AL, he sadly can't use that variant rule, unless they've changed what variant rules are allowed recently. Plus that would be a bit if a cruel move...Two players spend the equivalent of 24 hours of playing just to have the rug pulled out from under them like that and have it all be wasted?

[OvisCaedo]

Have that Tiamat die in piles of snow only to reveal that it was Tiamat's Simulacra!

Use the casting dragons variant, imo thats as much a "variant rule" as multiclassing.

Since its Tiamat we're talking about don't limit yourself with 4th lvl spells, she should have Wish among her spells.

Simulacrum being capable of duplicating a god is pretty heavily variant, though. Or any dragon, really; the spell only works on beasts and humanoids.

EDIT: at any rate, this is a very high-cost tactic the players are going for, so really it might be something nobody would specifically have prepared for. Who DOES that? But it also might not take a specific tactic for it to be high-risk; this is going to be two half-health wizards trying to move up on a massive dragon with 26 perception and 120 foot truesight, and breath weapon legendary actions. And it won't even kill her all the way! In fact, it'd only take a bit over a minute for her to heal back up from it fully, so the party also needs to be really prepared to jump in and capitalize on it.

re-edit: and I also forgot to even mention her ridiculously high DC frightful presence. There's ways to work through that, but there is actually a fair bit to get through to try and spring two suicide wizard bombers on her.

[Rukelnikov]

Its AL, he sadly can't use that variant rule, unless they've changed what variant rules are allowed recently. Plus that would be a bit if a cruel move...Two players spend the equivalent of 24 hours of playing just to have the rug pulled out from under them like that and have it all be wasted?

Forgot its AL, I only recently learned about how the "buy points" work.

I would compensate the destroyed staff maybe with another one or something better in the hoard later, but it would be worth it for the scene and for the fight.

[Rukelnikov]

Simulacrum being capable of duplicating a god is pretty heavily variant, though. Or any dragon, really; the spell only works on beasts and humanoids.

You're right, didn't remember about the beasts and humanoids limit.

EDIT: Btw Tiamat is sadly listed as fiend, I can't get why the epitome of the chromatic dragons isn't classified as one :S

[Pagrek]

Eh, with season 8 I'm more.. AL adjacent. The new season broke so much of my game I had to go outside the rules to make things fun. For example, I gave my players a shot to acquire more than one dragon mask. Funnily enough both wizards got one. Which they then gave to a metallic dragon for 24 checkpoints which turned into Staffs of the Magi... None of which was AL legal, but was definitely more interesting than just saying no.

I like the idea that detonating the staffs next to the portal has consequences though. Hmm, demonic invasion, maybe? Or maybe just a Pit Fiend...

[sithlordnergal]

Forgot its AL, I only recently learned about how the "buy points" work.

I would compensate the destroyed staff maybe with another one or something better in the hoard later, but it would be worth it for the scene and for the fight.

Heh, another limitation of AL: The DM can't add any magical items to any sort of hoard in any way. Hell, you no longer get any money for adventuring now. The only adventure I know of where the DM is allowed to pick magical items is Tomb of Horrors. Instead the items are prepicked by the adventure, and instead of getting the items immediately you "unlock" magic items you find. In order to get the magic item you find, you then need to earn enough Treasure Points. From Tier 1 to Tier 2, you earn 1 Treasure Point for every hour you play. At Tier 3 and 4, you earn 2 Treasure points for every hour.

One Staff of the Magi is 24 TP...those players will need to play a grand total of 12 more hours to get new staffs.

[sithlordnergal]

Eh, with season 8 I'm more.. AL adjacent. The new season broke so much of my game I had to go outside the rules to make things fun. For example, I gave my players a shot to acquire more than one dragon mask. Funnily enough both wizards got one. Which they then gave to a metallic dragon for 24 checkpoints which turned into Staffs of the Magi... None of which was AL legal, but was definitely more interesting than just saying no.

I like the idea that detonating the staffs next to the portal has consequences though. Hmm, demonic invasion, maybe? Or maybe just a Pit Fiend...

You could have them detonate it, and tie it into Out of the Abyss for demonic invasion. OwO

[Rukelnikov]

Heh, another limitation of AL: The DM can't add any magical items to any sort of hoard in any way. Hell, you no longer get any money for adventuring now. The only adventure I know of where the DM is allowed to pick magical items is Tomb of Horrors. Instead the items are prepicked by the adventure, and instead of getting the items immediately you "unlock" magic items you find. In order to get the magic item you find, you then need to earn enough Treasure Points. From Tier 1 to Tier 2, you earn 1 Treasure Point for every hour you play. At Tier 3 and 4, you earn 2 Treasure points for every hour.

One Staff of the Magi is 24 TP...those players will need to play a grand total of 12 more hours to get new staffs.

Yeah, as a player its not that bad, character's are already pretty "planned" in dnd, so getting to cherry pick items may be even better than rolling or getting whatever DM choose.

As a DM however its quite limiting not having a certain control over your players items.

[Pex]

The players' mistake was letting you know of their plan. You're making a bigger one by metagaming it. You know their plan. Tiamat doesn't. Don't do anything different than you would have had you not known of their plan. It's their characters, their magic items, their idea. Don't punish them for playing.

[Pagrek]

The players' mistake was letting you know of their plan. You're making a bigger one by metagaming it. You know their plan. Tiamat doesn't. Don't do anything different than you would have had you not known of their plan. It's their characters, their magic items, their idea. Don't punish them for playing.

I think it would be a bigger mistake to let the plan happen with no complications. There is a need for tension, for the players to legitimately wonder if their plan has worked. And it is my job as a DM to provide drama. Now, Tiamat is nasty. I may have been underestimating her stat block as some other commenters have suggested. However, I feel the biggest disservice I can do my players is allowing the final fight to be trivialized.

I realize in my first post I may have come off as wanting to block my players, but I really do want them to try things like this. It just can't be easy.

My players have shown me trust by talking about their plans like this. I need to respond to their trust by making things more interesting than if they'd kept it to themselves.

[Benny89]

It's only my opinion, but this is imo metagaming. They have a very clever plan (one I wouldn't think of, and I consider myself very clever tactician in RPGs) that you would never every anticipate. Let them do it, it's quite epic plan and all you do is try to narrate it in a way that will make it even more epic (especially a nuclear explosions of Staffs).

I would feel very bad as DM to meta-counter such wonderful plan. Just let them do it.

It's just my opinion.

[Unoriginal]

What it'd like to know is, how are the simulacrums getting close enough for the detonation of the staves to matter?


Tiamat is a genius. Like, she is far smarter, wiser and more charismatic than humanoids can naturally be. And a Staff of the Magi isn't a stick from the side of the road (some would even argue it has a distinctive shape, but eh, that's setting-dependent).

When two wizards show up with what are clearly magic staves, why would the Queen of Evil Dragons let them get close? She got breath weapons, plural, can fly, and they're simulacrums, ie with health roughly equal to a level 10 wizard.

If Tiamat let them come within 30ft of her, then it's not a question of players being clever, it's a question of super-intelligent monsters being played as too dumb to live.



It's only my opinion, but this is imo metagaming. They have a very clever plan (one I wouldn't think of, and I consider myself very clever tactician in RPGs) that you would never every anticipate. Let them do it, it's quite epic plan and all you do is try to narrate it in a way that will make it even more epic (especially a nuclear explosions of Staffs).

I would feel very bad as DM to meta-counter such wonderful plan. Just let them do it.

It's just my opinion.

"I send disposable puppets in the boss fight with highly powerful explosives so they can detonate it" isn't particularly clever. I'm not saying it's dumb or anything, just saying that it's a pretty basic tactic. Pretty sure people used to do that with Glyphs, in 3.X.

And again, it requires the simulacrums, who probably have around 50-to-60 HPs, to get within 30ft of a five-headed dragon goddess.


There is no need for metagaming or for countermeasure or anything of the sort. Just have Tiamat react normally (ie, kill the wizards before they can try using their magic, via her many deadly ranged options, and use Divine Word/fly up if they really come close), and if the simulacrums still succeed despite the goddess's best efforts then they've earned their success.

[CorporateSlave]

What it'd like to know is, how are the simulacrums getting close enough for the detonation of the staves to matter?


I've not played this adventure so I don't really know the details of the setting/lair, but could you Haste the Simulacrums, then they cast Dimension Door to within 5' and use their Haste Action to snap the staves? Or would you say Retributive Strike a specific type of Action and can't be justified as "use an object"...even though breaking a big stick certainly ought to qualify?

I suppose an alternate could be to have each Wizard hold their Actions until the Simulacrum's are ready, then Dimension Door in to within 50' or so, and the Hasted Simulacrums Haste Action Dash into range of Tiamat (out of range of their respective Wizards) and then use their regular Actions to snap the staves, although that leaves an angry, bloodied Tiamat only 50' from two guilty looking Wizards with a Legendary Action on deck, so the party better have something else good up their sleeves...

[Rukelnikov]

I've not played this adventure so I don't really know the details of the setting/lair, but could you Haste the Simulacrums, then they cast Dimension Door to within 5' and use their Haste Action to snap the staves? Or would you say Retributive Strike a specific type of Action and can't be justified as "use an object"...even though breaking a big stick certainly ought to qualify?

I suppose an alternate could be to have each Wizard hold their Actions until the Simulacrum's are ready, then Dimension Door in to within 50' or so, and the Hasted Simulacrums Haste Action Dash into range of Tiamat (out of range of their respective Wizards) and then use their regular Actions to snap the staves, although that leaves an angry, bloodied Tiamat only 50' from two guilty looking Wizards with a Legendary Action on deck, so the party better have something else good up their sleeves...

Breaking the staff is a specific action granted by the item.

[CorporateSlave]

Breaking the staff is a specific action granted by the item.

Boy this is munchkin-y, but in that case either the second option could work, or the Simulacrums could Ready their Action to cast Dimension Door...with the trigger of "just before my turn," then for their Reaction cast Dimension Door, then it's their turn and they can Retributive Strike with their normal Action. Since the Reaction isn't another creature's turn, Tiamat shouldn't be able to Legendary Action in time to smack them down first.

Now that I type that out, I sort of hope there is some rule against it...I suppose a DM could easily rule that its not a viable Held Action trigger to wait until "you feel ready to do something again mini-Action Surge shenanigans."

[Unoriginal]

"Just before my turn" isn't a viable trigger for a Reaction.

[CorporateSlave]

"Just before my turn" isn't a viable trigger for a Reaction.


It does illustrate a bit of wonkiness with the turn system though, doesn't it? Technically in most fights (Legendary Action fights aside of course), once you know the initiative order you could certainly just have the trigger of "once (insert name or description of the PC or NPC who goes before me here) acts, I will do (insert held action here)," while Tiamat (or any enemy with Legendary Actions) could bypass this for the most part, generally it would allow two back to back actions in many cases would it not? And surely a trigger of watching someone else on the battlefield and waiting until they make their move would be a viable trigger?

[Gryndle]

OP, I feel ya.

My gaming group consists of a former soldier with 8 years of service (and 4 total combat deployments), a person who was an analyst for that little intelligence agency in Langley, VA just long enough to pay off his college debts and quit because the stress was killing him (no BS, he was the real deal), one guy that has been playing D&D since the "Chainmail" days, and one guy who has more experience as an online gamer (so he tries to push the rules as far as he possibly can)

Even with my background, these guys are hard for me to out think. I can surprise them with story stuff, but when it comes to combining tactics with game mechanics, they can be hell to keep up with. The only reason I can do it at all is because I have a better grasp of game mechanics than the two tacticians, and better grasp of strategy and tactics than the two gamers. It takes me two weeks to plan for a 5 hour game session, including frequently ramping up the baseline difficulty level of encounters and traps. Even then I've learned to embrace and enjoy the fact that they are somehow, some way going to shred my plans in a way that is completely shocking and unexpected.


PS, Its finally someone else's turn to DM, thank every divine being ever conceived of for that. We had our first session of Dragon Heist, and I had too much fun.

[Keravath]

Eh, with season 8 I'm more.. AL adjacent. The new season broke so much of my game I had to go outside the rules to make things fun. For example, I gave my players a shot to acquire more than one dragon mask. Funnily enough both wizards got one. Which they then gave to a metallic dragon for 24 checkpoints which turned into Staffs of the Magi... None of which was AL legal, but was definitely more interesting than just saying no.

I like the idea that detonating the staffs next to the portal has consequences though. Hmm, demonic invasion, maybe? Or maybe just a Pit Fiend...

So it isn't an AL game anymore and none of the characters can be played at conventions or elsewhere?

If you are making changes for a home game then it isn't a problem. Make whatever changes you like to make the game more fun. However, if you are actually playing AL where the characters can be taken and played in other games run by other DMs then you aren't doing anyone any favors by "adjusting" things outside of what is AL legal since these folks would show up to other tables with items or abilities that they might not have otherwise.

However, I agree with you that the Cloak of Invisibility and Staff of the Magi should never have been included in the general Season 8 unlock list. They are a significant power upgrade and anyone can now get them after reaching level 12.5 in AL and acquiring 24 tier 3 treasure points. If your wizards are casting simulatcrum then they have probably already acquired enough tier3/4 treasure points to purchase a new Staff a couple of times over.

Finally, I don't think this plan would work at all.

Is Tiamat stupid? The stats I can find indicate an intelligence of 26.

1) the retributive strike diminishes with distance and allows a save. At 21-30' it is only 4 times. With a save it does half damage. Tiamat has legendary saves so even if she happens to fail (unlikely) she will still pass. At maximum each staff could only do 200 hit points of damage to Tiamat at 10' range ... which is unlikely to happen.

2) Tiamat has 615 hit points. Even both staves under ideal circumstances wouldn't kill it.

3) The staff is Legendary. Tiamat is very likely to recognize it (the arcana skill is +17). Tiamat would never allow a creature bearing one, never mind two, to get within 30' let alone 10')

4) Tiamat gets 5 legendary actions/turn along with her regular attacks.

5) Tiamat has a passive perception of 36, truesight to 120' and darkvision to 240'. So it would be pretty much impossible to see the dragon without being seen. Tiamat's lair can be assumed to be impervious to scrying ... she isn't that stupid.

The only way to deliver such an attack would be to have someone else teleport you in and then use an action to break the staff (You can't cast the spell yourself unless you also have action surge or timestop to allow for multiple actions on a turn).

However, Tiamat would likely have either magic to block teleporting into her lair (she isn't stupid remember) or would make it impossible to get an idea of the layout so if someone tried teleport (or dimension door) the odds would be good of winding up inside a solid object.

All of this also assumes that the Simulacrum passes the DC26 fear saving throw for her frightful presence (within 240' .. unless it is immune to fear for some reason).

Anyway, from the look of it, the plan can't kill Tiamat even at its most optimal. Perhaps if the wizards and their simulacrums all teleported in (somehow) and all four broke Staff of the Magi that were fully charged at a distance of 10' from Tiamat then it might work.

Meteor swarm is only going to an average of 70 damage since the fire component does nothing (she is immune to fire damage).

I think your players need a plan ... I think the odds of them actually winning are very small ... the CR is 30 ... even with breaking staves which she is unlikely to stand still for.

[Rukelnikov]

It does illustrate a bit of wonkiness with the turn system though, doesn't it? Technically in most fights (Legendary Action fights aside of course), once you know the initiative order you could certainly just have the trigger of "once (insert name or description of the PC or NPC who goes before me here) acts, I will do (insert held action here)," while Tiamat (or any enemy with Legendary Actions) could bypass this for the most part, generally it would allow two back to back actions in many cases would it not? And surely a trigger of watching someone else on the battlefield and waiting until they make their move would be a viable trigger?

That is a viable trigger, however, Legendary actions take place after another creature's turn ends, and the reaction would have to be taken immediately after X character acts, meaning Tiamat would stil be able to take a Legendary action after the dimensional door has been cast and while having the simulacra/um nearby (as long as she has points remaining ofc).

[CorporateSlave]

That is a viable trigger, however, Legendary actions take place after another creature's turn ends, and the reaction would have to be taken immediately after X character acts, meaning Tiamat would stil be able to take a Legendary action after the dimensional door has been cast and while having the simulacra/um nearby (as long as she has points remaining ofc).

Indeed, that's what I meant by "...Tiamat (or any enemy with Legendary Actions) could bypass this for the most part..." I guess the PC's could make the trigger more like "once Tiamat reacts to X character's action," but that carries the risk of Tiamat not using a Legendary action, causing it all to be wasted.

However, as a general tactic for any time during a lesser battle when you would want to do something devastating that would require back to back spells or attacks to really work, it could be used rather effectively. (Say for a Hasted Rogue to possibly get 3 Sneak Attacks in one round, very nearly consecutively)

[Rukelnikov]

Indeed, that's what I meant by "...Tiamat (or any enemy with Legendary Actions) could bypass this for the most part..." I guess the PC's could make the trigger more like "once Tiamat reacts to X character's action," but that carries the risk of Tiamat not using a Legendary action, causing it all to be wasted.

However, as a general tactic for any time during a lesser battle when you would want to do something devastating that would require back to back spells or attacks to really work, it could be used rather effectively. (Say for a Hasted Rogue to possibly get 3 Sneak Attacks in one round, very nearly consecutively)

Yeah arcane tricksters using haste action to attack and main action to ready for someone else's turn is pretty common, and pretty effective against enemies that can't dispel.

[Pex]

I think it would be a bigger mistake to let the plan happen with no complications. There is a need for tension, for the players to legitimately wonder if their plan has worked. And it is my job as a DM to provide drama. Now, Tiamat is nasty. I may have been underestimating her stat block as some other commenters have suggested. However, I feel the biggest disservice I can do my players is allowing the final fight to be trivialized.

I realize in my first post I may have come off as wanting to block my players, but I really do want them to try things like this. It just can't be easy.

My players have shown me trust by talking about their plans like this. I need to respond to their trust by making things more interesting than if they'd kept it to themselves.

If players' plans never work they stop planning.

[Unoriginal]

If players' plans never work they stop planning.

That is true, and so is the reverse: if players' plans always work, no matter how ill-thought or even not thought at all, then stop playing.

I've had a DM who wanted very hard to make all the players happy all the time. He let a PC take over a galaxy-wide, billions-worth organization who was up to this point one of the major antagonists of the setting just by asking a few NPCs and then waiting a session or so.

The plan of OP's players isn't very good. It has a chance of working, but it's a faint one. I say the DM should remind them of some facts about the situation if the players have forgotten them (ex: "I've told you last session, the room looks like X, and your plan requires it to look like Y"), and then if they still want to do it, let them do it, while playing Tiamat as the competent evil goddess she is, and see where it ends.

[Pex]

That is true, and so is the reverse: if players' plans always work, no matter how ill-thought or even not thought at all, then stop playing.

I've had a DM who wanted very hard to make all the players happy all the time. He let a PC take over a galaxy-wide, billions-worth organization who was up to this point one of the major antagonists of the setting just by asking a few NPCs and then waiting a session or so.

The plan of OP's players isn't very good. It has a chance of working, but it's a faint one. I say the DM should remind them of some facts about the situation if the players have forgotten them (ex: "I've told you last session, the room looks like X, and your plan requires it to look like Y"), and then if they still want to do it, let them do it, while playing Tiamat as the competent evil goddess she is, and see where it ends.

Of course. If players make a mistake or whatever, consequences. However, if a plan would work the DM should not go out of his way to make it not work, such as asking people on the internet how to make it not work or at least not as the players want. For the case in question, the non-wizard players will get their moment to shine the OP is worried about. Their job is to occupy Tiamat to enable the wizard players to enact their plan.

[Asmotherion]

The players' mistake was letting you know of their plan. You're making a bigger one by metagaming it. You know their plan. Tiamat doesn't. Don't do anything different than you would have had you not known of their plan. It's their characters, their magic items, their idea. Don't punish them for playing.

This more or less. Not every plan needs to fail. The players entrusted you with their plan so that you were on board and didn't have to cut through the epic scene with a series of arguements "that doesn't work like that".

Sometimes the proverbial "Good Guys" win. Especially when Wizards are involved.

if you want a continuation for the campain that's an other issue: Just imagin what rip in the fabric of the Planes this explosion and the potential death of a Godess could create and do something out of it. My first thought: Shadow Dragons Everywere (caused by a leak from the shadowfell).

[Potato_Priest]

What it'd like to know is, how are the simulacrums getting close enough for the detonation of the staves to matter?


Tiamat is a genius. Like, she is far smarter, wiser and more charismatic than humanoids can naturally be. And a Staff of the Magi isn't a stick from the side of the road (some would even argue it has a distinctive shape, but eh, that's setting-dependent).

When two wizards show up with what are clearly magic staves, why would the Queen of Evil Dragons let them get close? She got breath weapons, plural, can fly, and they're simulacrums, ie with health roughly equal to a level 10 wizard.

If Tiamat let them come within 30ft of her, then it's not a question of players being clever, it's a question of super-intelligent monsters being played as too dumb to live.



I don't know about that. If I was tiamat, I would probably be more worried about fighting wizards outside of close range, and would be trying to get into close range, where my extraordinary number and quality of attacks will turn them both into mincemeat within 2 rounds tops. My first thought when I see two wizards approaching to within near-melee range of me is thus going to be more one of "ha, look at these new lambs to the slaughter" rather than "I wonder what possible plan they could theoretically have to deal massive damage to me in close range". You can play it the other way as well of course (depending on your interpretation of tiamat's personality), but my point is that there's not one right way to roleplay tiamat. Genius and godlike power can as easily lead to arrogance as to caution after all.

[MaxWilson]

Its AL, he sadly can't use that variant rule, unless they've changed what variant rules are allowed recently. Plus that would be a bit if a cruel move...Two players spend the equivalent of 24 hours of playing just to have the rug pulled out from under them like that and have it all be wasted?

Does Adventurer's League seriously hand out Staffs of the Magi every 12 hours of play time?!? That seems excessive.

@OP, I'd say go ahead and don't do anything special to interfere with the plan. Once Tiamat survives the explosions of not one but two fully-charged Staves of the Magi right to the face, the players will know they are dealing with something truly epic.

Admittedly, Staves of the Magi are less epic in 5E than in AD&D, because of HP inflation. 400 points of damage (save for half) is far more impressive in a system (AD&D2) where a Great Wyrm Shadow Dragon has about 100 HP and the Tarrasque has 300 HP than in a system (5E) where an Ancient Red Dragon has 546 HP and the Tarrasque 676 HP. Much like the Tarrasque itself, the 5E Staff of the Magi's reputation is founded mostly on how the item works in completely different games.

[sithlordnergal]

Does Adventurer's League seriously hand out Staffs of the Magi every 12 hours of play time?!? That seems excessive.


I will admit, it seems excessive at first. But you have to factor in things like:

- You need to reach tier 3 first, which takes around 72 hours of playing. Then you have to play the additional 12 hours to buy it

- You can only get magic items by buying them with treasure points, and until you reach T3, one hour equals one TP. As a result you end up with a list of magic items you want, but can't buy. I.E. if you found a Wand of Fireballs you need to spend 20 TP to get it, so another 10 hours

- You don't earn gold in adventures anymore. Instead you buy gold. One treasure point is 50 gold. You want to get a Simulacrum? 30 Treasure Points, or 15 hours.

- You can use Treasure Points to buy scrolls. This is great, as you can fill up your spell book. Buuut any spell from 6 to 8th level costs another 16 TP.


Adventures League really enjoys nickle and diming your TP. You can certainly save your TP for Staves of the Magi, but you won't ve getting any other magic items at all

[sightlessrealit]

I mean, they technically can do more than 8x50 force damage. Say the wizards sims had disintegrate. The sims could target themselves & force their own reaction to absorb the spell which would put it past 50 & thus auto explode.

[Pex]

I will admit, it seems excessive at first. But you have to factor in things like:

- You need to reach tier 3 first, which takes around 72 hours of playing. Then you have to play the additional 12 hours to buy it

- You can only get magic items by buying them with treasure points, and until you reach T3, one hour equals one TP. As a result you end up with a list of magic items you want, but can't buy. I.E. if you found a Wand of Fireballs you need to spend 20 TP to get it, so another 10 hours

- You don't earn gold in adventures anymore. Instead you buy gold. One treasure point is 50 gold. You want to get a Simulacrum? 30 Treasure Points, or 15 hours.

- You can use Treasure Points to buy scrolls. This is great, as you can fill up your spell book. Buuut any spell from 6 to 8th level costs another 16 TP.


Adventures League really enjoys nickle and diming your TP. You can certainly save your TP for Staves of the Magi, but you won't ve getting any other magic items at all

Not that I need it, but it's always nice to be reminded why I don't want to play Adventurer's League.

[Unoriginal]

I don't know about that. If I was tiamat, I would probably be more worried about fighting wizards outside of close range, and would be trying to get into close range, where my extraordinary number and quality of attacks will turn them both into mincemeat within 2 rounds tops. My first thought when I see two wizards approaching to within near-melee range of me is thus going to be more one of "ha, look at these new lambs to the slaughter" rather than "I wonder what possible plan they could theoretically have to deal massive damage to me in close range". You can play it the other way as well of course (depending on your interpretation of tiamat's personality), but my point is that there's not one right way to roleplay tiamat. Genius and godlike power can as easily lead to arrogance as to caution after all.

When you're a dragon goddess and the enemy squishy guys in robes try to get close to you, it's that they have a plan, are forced by something that can overpower their fear of you, they're not really squishy gusy but are disguised in some ways, or the whole thing is a trick and they're distracting you.

Tiamat is extraordinarily vain, but in the "why am not Queen of Everything yet?" way, not the "I'll let you hit me with your unknown plan in the middle of my triumph because I know I'll survive"

There is no reason why Tiamat wouldn't Breath the simulacrums to death and then loot the staves.

[Son of A Lich!]

I agree completely with Unoriginal here; Let them try and figure out a way to deliver the two sim wizards to Tiamat. If they find a way, good on them.

Tiamat isn't going to just completely ignore any mortal that just tries to saunter up to her, regardless if they are wearing robes or not. I mean, wizards can do all sorts of dangerous things from all sorts of ranges - Whats to stop them from preparing counter spells when she tries to cast? I mean, aside from the fact that they are going to be boiled alive in electrified acid frost fire, of course.

If they are foolish enough to try to get that close, she should have no problem 1 rounding both of them... at least hypothetically. The real problem is that Sims are useful, expensive but really really fragile. I think I'd rather have them just unload their spell slots and hope to do more damage then the broken staves would hope to do. Even if they just unloaded Magic Missiles for assured damage, that's gotta be more DPR then suicide bombing right?

[Unoriginal]

Even if they just unloaded Magic Missiles for assured damage, that's gotta be more DPR then suicide bombing right?

Well, not against Tiamat. She's immune to all spells of a level inferior to 7. Unless the PCs managed to mess with the ritual that brings her to Faerun.

So yeah, depending on levels and spell selection, the Simulacrums could literally be unable to affect her at all with magic.