Roleplaying to get people to -under-estimate you?

[ToastyTobasco]

I'm playing Kobolds and small characters in games now and the quirk I want to experiment with is to try and make them seem weak or harmless but when they actually hit, here comes a stun or smite and my opponent has that real *oh sh#t* moment.

It's easy to play an overconfident character, I'm curious on how to make an interesting character that plays a con to make his opponent underestimate him at their own peril. Or one who struggles to be taken seriously


Current character simplified

Meekki

Former tribal Kobold who was trained by a curious Dragonborn Monk to see what he could accomplish and sent off into the world to adventure. Now he is an Open-Hand Monk. Quirks are obsession with metallic dragons (He met one and promptly fan-boy'd), mixes up dragons and gods, hoards gold and valuables and not much beyond that, sadly.

He is unused to the cushy life of adventurers (compared to being nomadic and often terrible conditions of Kobold life), is unsure of his place in life and holds a loose bond with companions as he never needed to bother with really connecting with his cannon-fodder brethren. His being 3ft tall could be fun to play off of, particularly since we have a 7ft Firbolg Druid in the party.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Thrudd]

I'm not sure it's really possible to role play to "get" other people to react a certain way. You can role play the character as being meek, or feigning cowardice, or holding back on using your special abilities too often. But how the other players react to you is up to them, and how NPCs and monsters react to you is up to the DM. The DM might choose to role play creatures as underestimating you, or to be surprised the first time you use an ability, but you can't force that to happen. The DM and the other players all actually know what your character is capable of, so it isn't like you can really surprise anybody.

For actual game-mechanic way to try to con people, you could attempt to get certain reactions by making offers or claims before combat like "hey, I'm unarmed, please don't hurt me!" or "I'm no fighter, I'll give you some gold if you leave me alone...", and hoping the DM gives you a skill check to influence them into letting their guard down or coming closer to you. Of course, once you declare you want to attack them, you still have to win initiative to get the first attack, and the DM may or may not award you with any advantage for having convinced them you were weak first. In the end, it's always just going to be the DM's role playing choices.


You could just be the little guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ebcsowtrU0).

Always wait to use your ability or big attack last, after everyone else, and use it to take someone out in a dramatic way (probably after they've been weakened by others first).

[ToastyTobasco]

I'm not sure it's really possible to role play to "get" other people to react a certain way. You can role play the character as being meek, or feigning cowardice, or holding back on using your special abilities too often. But how the other players react to you is up to them, and how NPCs and monsters react to you is up to the DM. The DM might choose to role play creatures as underestimating you, or to be surprised the first time you use an ability, but you can't force that to happen. The DM and the other players all actually know what your character is capable of, so it isn't like you can really surprise anybody.

For actual game-mechanic way to try to con people, you could attempt to get certain reactions by making offers or claims before combat like "hey, I'm unarmed, please don't hurt me!" or "I'm no fighter, I'll give you some gold if you leave me alone...", and hoping the DM gives you a skill check to influence them into letting their guard down or coming closer to you. Of course, once you declare you want to attack them, you still have to win initiative to get the first attack, and the DM may or may not award you with any advantage for having convinced them you were weak first. In the end, it's always just going to be the DM's role playing choices.


You could just be the little guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ebcsowtrU0).

Always wait to use your ability or big attack last, after everyone else, and use it to take someone out in a dramatic way (probably after they've been weakened by others first).
These...are very good points. Probably need to rethink this

[Xetheral]

I'm playing Kobolds and small characters in games now and the quirk I want to experiment with is to try and make them seem weak or harmless but when they actually hit, here comes a stun or smite and my opponent has that real *oh sh#t* moment.

It's easy to play an overconfident character, I'm curious on how to make an interesting character that plays a con to make his opponent underestimate him at their own peril. Or one who struggles to be taken seriously


Current character simplified

Meekki

Former tribal Kobold who was trained by a curious Dragonborn Monk to see what he could accomplish and sent off into the world to adventure. Now he is an Open-Hand Monk. Quirks are obsession with metallic dragons (He met one and promptly fan-boy'd), mixes up dragons and gods, hoards gold and valuables and not much beyond that, sadly.

He is unused to the cushy life of adventurers (compared to being nomadic and often terrible conditions of Kobold life), is unsure of his place in life and holds a loose bond with companions as he never needed to bother with really connecting with his cannon-fodder brethren. His being 3ft tall could be fun to play off of, particularly since we have a 7ft Firbolg Druid in the party.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Being a monk is a good start: without weapons or armor it's easy for people to underestimate you. To make sure they don't think you're a spellcaster, wear an oversized backpack and stuff it full of everything you can find. You'll look like a tiny, unarmed Porter (or possibly even a slave, depending on the local cutural norms).

When initiative is rolled, panic like a noncombatant. Squeak, whimper, drop the pack, and flee behind some big object to hide. After that, against moderately-intelligent foes, you might as well not exist. The PHB suggests there are times when the DM can allow stealth checks to approach someone while hidden, even if there isn't cover. This is as good as an example as any. Sneak up on an enemy leader or spellcaster (use Step of the Wind if necessary) and hit them with everything you have to make sure they're stunned. In exchange for one round of not directly contributing to combat, you've now managed to approach a valuable enemy without giving them a chance to flee from you.

Run this plan by your DM though. It requires DM-buy in, and if your DM doesn't think it's an awesome idea, you're going to have a rough time of it. Also, against opponents too dumb to sort opponents into combatants and non-combatants, or against enemies too wary to be easily taken in, this strategy won't work very well.

You'll need Deception and Stealth. Consider multiclassing a single level of Rogue to get expertise in both.

[follacchioso]

What about a Drunken Master monk? People will underestimate you, as they think you are drunk.

Maybe you can flavour it as if you were terrified of the enemy, instead of being drunk.

[Shuruke]

Putting prof into deception and persuasion
Or taking charlatan background.


Drunken master gets performance skill.

I'm sure if you take background for it, the skills, and talk to the dm he can make it work.


Currently I'm playing a nerdy alchemist halfling who wears really nice suits and only has skills like insight, arcana, medicine.

For most part he is always underestimated but the party knows that when he undoes his shirt and drops it to floor and then stabs an injection in his neck that **** is about to go down.
(Moon druid transmutation wizard re flavored as a mutagen Alchemist. Dm has let the wild shapes look like creepy animorphous creatures)

As long as you aren't trying to get anything stat wise out of it and use it for rp/ building your character it should be fine.

Just take things like alert (you getting bonus to Intiative because everybody reacts a bit slower underestimating you)
Tough (rather than more hp its the enemies pulling punches cuz they don't wanna waste energy on someone as weak as you.)

Pole arm master and sentinel combo (them walking at you without caution then being suprised* when u smack them with stick)

*not referring to Suprised Condition referring to movement reduced to 0 on AOO

Just take things that with dm permission you can re flavor.

If I wanted to do a character around this I would do a staff using open hand monk. Just a little kobold and his walking stick.

[Zanthy1]

If you want NPCs to perceive you as meek, talk with your DM beforehand and let him know that you will be trying to make this happen. That way they are more attentive to your roleplay and aware of certain actions having certain meanings.

I had a player who wanted to do something like this and it was pretty fun. He was a human paladin who was pretending to be a regular fighter (his idea). His backstory was that he was hunting this evil necromancer that the party was working for at the time, so he didn't want to be obvious until it came time to fight. Unfortunately for him the dice were not in his favor and his great reveal (with a high level smite and some serious nova damage potential) fell extremely short.

[Keravath]

The whole concept can work quite well out of combat. Folks see a kobold. Some will immediately consider an enemy anyway and want to kill it. They are generally evil and there are no doubt many who have been victims of kobold raids somewhere in the world. (unless the world differs from the usual ones by a substantial amount). Others might see a poor little creature ... especially if you dress in shabby clothes to play the part. Deception skill will be important. Wearing armor or carrying lots of weapons will be a give away that the character is not as meek as it seems. A walking staff and dagger might be the limit before arousing suspicion.

However, the problem is that once combat hits, after the first round, the ruse basically goes away. Depending on your opponents, most of the styles of fighting .. including open hand and drunken master monks are known. As soon as you start doing damage, it becomes obvious that you are more than you seem ... and to be honest, doing damage will be necessary to support your party ... extending the ruse that you are less than you seem through combat means not using your abilities and not contributing the fight which aren't much fun for the PC or the party. Especially when the entire reason is to see the look of surprise as opponents have underestimated you.

Most encounters in fiction or elsewhere, where a character has been underestimated, become pretty clear after the first round that something isn't as expected.

Anyway, it is a cool character concept that can be well played out of combat with proficiency in deception. In combat, it won't extend past your first turn ... though the odds are reasonable that opponents might choose some other target if they go before you since you don't look like much of a threat.

Finally, remember that although pack tactics is great for a kobold monk ... they do have sunlight sensitivity making it more challenging to fight in well lit conditions. The benefit of having both is that a kobold can still attack with a straight roll if both conditions are in effect at the same time (pack tactics and sunlight sensitivity can cancel when fighting in bright light with a team mate).

[ProsecutorGodot]

When I introduced my Paladin to the group, I used the following description:
"You see an older looking gentleman, perhaps late 60's or early 70's using a gaudy looking crystal staff to support himself. He wears plain clothes and strapped to his backpack is a tattered mess of rags wrapped around a shield. He introduces himself with a surprisingly firm voice and tells you that he was hired (by my retiring PC, the adventuring groups leader) to be your protection from now on."

Naturally, the headstrong fighter of the group and the skeptical monk took that as a challenge and wanted to see how tough this old man really was. We went down into the basement of our tavern for an absolutely not duel where I let the fighter get some nice hits in before I turned around and smacked her silly.

Roleplaying isn't just your behavior, as far as I'm concerned, but can also include your character's appearance and gear loadout. A Staff of Defense used as a walking stick would tell people that you're a pretentious noble with a habit for extravagant purchases, dressing in plain clothes tells them that you're an easy target. A ruined shield and poor posture tell them that you might not be very well equipped and past your prime. None of those things were very true about my character.

You've already got most of the work done, being a Kobold (small, weak on their own) you give off the impression to most people that you're not as big a threat as the people surrounding you. The downside is part of that same thing though, being a Kobold you're almost as likely to be killed on site like a Goblin.

[Naanomi]

A very stealth based combat approach can work as well... Skulker feat, always hide after an attack... in combat you just ‘run away’, and if people somehow get hit with sling stones in vital spots during combat that isn’t you, you were clearly cowering

That is the approach I did with my Halfling Assassin/Charlatan who always was disguised as a human child

If one wants to go fully committed (and are willing to give up efficacy in the process), a Sorcerer with subtle spell only casting spells without material components could look super helpless while things just ‘happen’

[Derpy]

It can be fun regardless of if you are more into playing the role or trying to get combat advantages out of it. It's great to have a bunch of tall, strong, crazy people that epitomize adventurers, then one scrawny person who looks like they don't belong. If you've got a DM worth their salt, and fellow players who like the role playing as much as or more then combat then they should respond appropriately, even play it up to NPCs. Maybe hustle a few underground boxing matches and make a killing on bets. Of course, the players will know your true strength very soon, but it could still be fun role play, or just a good change of pace from what some people think of as a stereotypical adventurer.

My character has gone from level 1 to 16 so far and doesn't own, and has never owned, a weapon or armor. Probably the most anti-adventurer I've ever made. Being a halfling pact of blade fiend-lock with armor of shadows invocation she appears pretty innocent, until she's not. I think of all her powers and skills as not her own, do to the nature of warlocks and their pacts. I think it's a ton of fun to play, but then I'm not eager for the spotlight either and am content to have her be unassuming before raining down fiery death on the party's foes, then going back to being unassuming.

[Gtdead]

I was playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker on pc, and there is an event where a fey asks abstract questions and every party gives an answer. The most powerful answer wins and the winner gets to ask a question and receive a truthful answer.

There's a kobold there that already stands out. It has already done something spectacular, circumventing the rules of the event. The rule is that you can only compete along with 2 friends, for a total of 3 in the party. The kobold brought it's animal friends, some squirrels or something.

So the event starts, the host asks questions. The kobold can only think of a nonsensical answer that has to do with dragons.

What can move mountains? Dragon, dragon is strong, may can move mountain!
What is a beast that is born with you, and can only grow? Dragon, dragon is beast and grows!

etc.

The reason I bring it up, is because from the very first moment, I was expecting that the kobold would be silly. I underestimated it and rightly so. Turns out I was right.

But now, seeing your post, I though, if that kobold actually gave a half decent answer and win the contest, or have a better standing, it would really be something to remember.

What I'm trying to say, is that, despite what the players and the dm know about you, they can't help but call a silly kobold silly. If you already play a race that is supposed to have quirks like that, be as stereotypical and silly as you can, up till you aren't. Use a dagger as a main weapon and call it "big sword!", speak in broken language, have a delusion about your trainer, as if some great dragon made you "strooong". And then proceed to stunlock a boss.

[Laserlight]

Part of it can be your mannerisms. Head bowed, eyes down or to one side, never meet someone's eyes. Hunch your shoulders a little. When you reach for something, hesitate before you touch it. When someone addresses you, flinch. End sentences with a questioning tone.

I've been doing this with my new character, a fiendlock who never wanted to adventure and really wishes he were back in the library. When goblins attacked, he hid in the wagon without fighting. It was quite amusing when we ran into more goblins and he turned the fight from "probably a TPK" to "we won!" by killing four goblins at once.

[ToastyTobasco]

Thanks for the replies. These are very helpful.

I guess the next things to work on are little tiks of being a Kobold. Need to embrace that side of the character more. Sadly I havent found a chance to use my Grovel and beg ability.

[willdaBEAST]

Thanks for the replies. These are very helpful.

I guess the next things to work on are little tiks of being a Kobold. Need to embrace that side of the character more. Sadly I havent found a chance to use my Grovel and beg ability.

I think Grovel especially captures exactly what you intend, this pathetic weakling is cowering in fear to the degree it distracts enemies.

As others have pointed out, the roleplaying side of it requires DM buy in.

If I were the DM, I wouldn't necessarily limit the effects to only one round of combat, but skill checks would be involved. If a drunken master describes tumbling around, clocking enemies with a surprised look on his face, before collapsing to the floor, I'd let the player make a performance check against the opponents' insight.

That's not going to work for every encounter and is most believable in a tavern, but I think there are plenty of ways for deception like that to add fun flavor.

[Kupursk]

Here's an idea:

Battle Master Fighter has this ability:

Feinting Attack: You can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action on your turn to feint, choosing one creature within 5 feet of you as your target. You have advantage on your next attack roll against that creature. If that attack hits, add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll.

You can use deception (or just plain roleplaying) to get close to enemies. They probably wouldn't think much of a Kobold anyway. Then all of a sudden you strike with the Feinting Attack. Seems simple enough.

[AvvyR]

In Storm King's Thunder, the Mystic I played was an especially small and shrimpy 8 Str 8 Con blind teenage street rat with the intent of appearing as harmless as possible. I would typically feign confusion at what was happening or hide behind things in combat. Psionic powers create little evidence of their source, so I was usually able to fly under the radar.

[Tawmis]

Putting prof into deception and persuasion
Or taking charlatan background.


Beat me to it.

I tried something literally, something like this fight (where the guy I was fighting was bigger than me, and I wasn't trying to take him down immediately, I feigned weakness) and as a Paladin used Deception.

The DM essentially allowed me to "lower" my armor class to be hit easier, until I was ready to turn the tide of the fight.

https://youtu.be/rRVZtmhvkas

[Sigreid]

In the TV series Andromeda there was a techie character that always acted a bit cowardly and weak, but was known to be a good shot with his pistol. In one episode he was taken on a mission by the captain and when 4 goons attacked them his gun malfunctioned. The captain was then amazed to watch this scrawny guy destroy the four goons in an incredible display of hand to hand combat. As soon as the combat was over he remembered that he wasn't "supposed" to be good in a fist fight and acted as if he'd been hurt. The character grew up in a dangerous slum.

I'd do it like that.

[Mercurias]

If I were the DM, I'd let you roleplay pretending to be weak with a Deception check socially and a Performance check in combat. I'd allow ONE bluff to get advantage on an attack, and given circumstances might allow more (e.g., you took a heavy hit and pretended to be more hurt than you were).

[Throne12]

If you want to seam weak when you start the fight. Attack with your Str mod. Then out of nowhere start using your dex mod. Describe your first attacks as him wildly throwing punches and kicks while screaming trembling. Then when he switch to Dex describe him how his presence change and how focused and determinenation in his eyes.