hypothetical question for experts

[rediridesence]

so a unique question has arisen in a game im playing in with one of our druids, it sounded like an interesting question, but none of us had a direct answer to it, so i figured id ask around to see if there was any answers regarding it.

So, hypothetical question, if one had assume SU ability or metamorhpic transfer, and used it to gain the immolation (Su) ability of a phoenix, woud that allow a person to be reborn as a phoenix?

the SU states that they are reborn as a new, fully formed phoenix after dying:

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Immolation(Su):

When it knows that death is near, a phoenix immolates itself as a full-round action.

This produces a cloud of flame in a 20-foot-high, 15-foot-radius spread. Each creature in the area takes 40d6 points of damage (reflex half). Half of this damage is fire; the rest results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to reduction.

This action kills the original phoenix and produces a new one, fully grown and unharmed, fro mthe ashes. This new bird arrives at the end of the round.

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so if i read that right you die if you use that ability, but the ability revives you as a new phoenix, fully grown. question is, do you retain your former body after resurrecting(reborn) as a phoenix, or what?

[ngilop]

so a unique question has arisen in a game im playing in with one of our druids, it sounded like an interesting question, but none of us had a direct answer to it, so i figured id ask around to see if there was any answers regarding it.

So, hypothetical question, if one had assume SU ability or metamorhpic transfer, and used it to gain the immolation (Su) ability of a phoenix, woud that allow a person to be reborn as a phoenix?

the SU states that they are reborn as a new, fully formed phoenix after dying:

-------------------------------------------------

Immolation(Su):

When it knows that death is near, a phoenix immolates itself as a full-round action.

This produces a cloud of flame in a 20-foot-high, 15-foot-radius spread. Each creature in the area takes 40d6 points of damage (reflex half). Half of this damage is fire; the rest results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to reduction.

This action kills the original phoenix and produces a new one, fully grown and unharmed, fro mthe ashes. This new bird arrives at the end of the round.

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so if i read that right you die if you use that ability, but the ability revives you as a new phoenix, fully grown. question is, do you retain your former body after resurrecting(reborn) as a phoenix, or what?

You have to remember that the phoenix is the original form of the phoenix and so that is why the ability for the phoenix states that immolation
kills the original phoenix and produces a new one, fully grown and unharmed, from the ashes. This new bird arrives at the end of the round. Note the original phoenix in the rule.

If you want to read it as it turns you into a phoenix afterwards, then you have to also read it as, it would to work since the character in question is not originally a phoenix.


But, what is the proper way to interpret that is, character dies uses the immolation ability and is reborn as what they were originally (human, elf, halfling or what have you)


Since the being using the immolation ability was not originally a phoenix, it would most certainly be reborn as what it was and not into a whole different creature.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'd agree with ngilop that if your original form isn't a phoenix, then it doesn't turn you into a phoenix. However, note that the Assume Supernatural Ability feat states "You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect." [emphasis added]

So the real question is if a non-phoenix who is polymorphed into a phoenix uses this ability, do they come back still polymorphed or does the polymorph end (because they died) and they come back as their original self? My take on this would be that you are no longer polymorphed.

EDIT: Upon reading the posts below, I realized I didn't read the Immolation ability correctly. It does state that it kills the original phoenix and creates a new one, not resurrecting the old one. So this would create an actual phoenix in place of the character who dies.

As for the polymorph spell, whether the dead character stays polymorphed would depend upon whether the corpse remained a legal target for the spell. A standard polymorph targets "Willing living creature touched" and a corpse is a non-living object.

[Segev]

They come back polymorphed and revert to the underlying form when the spell ends.

[Uncle Pine]

Immolation kills you. At the end of the round, a new phoenix creature is created, but this creature isn't you. Because you're dead. It's a new phoenix.

Contrast with the Jade Phoenix Mage's capstone:

Emerald Immolation (Sp): At 10th level, once per week you can perform the awesome emerald immolation. You explode in a searing blast of green fire that deals 20d6 points of damage in a 20-foot radius (Reflex half, DC 19 + key spellcasting ability modifier). Half the damage the blast deals is fire, and the other half is raw arcane energy (untyped damage). Extraplanar creatures that fail their saves must immediately succeed on a Will save (DC 19 + key spellcasting ability modifier) or be dismissed to their native planes. This blast utterly destroys you, but 1d6 rounds later, you re-form in the exact spot where you were when you employed this ability. You are dazed for 1 round after you reappear, but you are healed of all damage (including ability drain or damage), blindness, deafness, disease, paralysis, or poison. Any equipment you were wearing or objects you were holding or carrying when you used this ability re-form with you, exactly as they were. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.
Emerald immolation reforms you. Immolations forms a new creature different from the original. Even if an actual phoenix were to immolate itself, the final result wouldn't be that phoenix in a different, new body, but a new phoenix.

[Silva Stormrage]

Immolation kills you. At the end of the round, a new phoenix creature is created, but this creature isn't you. Because you're dead. It's a new phoenix.

Contrast with the Jade Phoenix Mage's capstone:

Emerald immolation reforms you. Immolations forms a new creature different from the original. Even if an actual phoenix were to immolate itself, the final result wouldn't be that phoenix in a different, new body, but a new phoenix.

Ya I agree with this interpretation. The new phoenix isn't "You" anymore. It's not reincarnate.

If you can grant other creatures the ability though it would be a fast way to spawn hordes of phoenixes though.

[Segev]

Ya I agree with this interpretation. The new phoenix isn't "You" anymore. It's not reincarnate.

If you can grant other creatures the ability though it would be a fast way to spawn hordes of phoenixes though.

In a standard phoenix ressurection, is the new phoenix not the old one, then? Are they two different characters?

[Uncle Pine]

In a standard phoenix ressurection, is the new phoenix not the old one, then? Are they two different characters?
Alas, for the first phoenix, yes. Rip Fawkes. Dumbledore's phoenix, for anyone not catching the reference.

[KillianHawkeye]

In a standard phoenix ressurection, is the new phoenix not the old one, then?

Not in D&D, apparently.

[Segev]

Alas, for the first phoenix, yes. Rip Fawkes. Dumbledore's phoenix, for anyone not catching the reference.


Not in D&D, apparently.

See, the fact that it says it's identical to the first phoenix makes me disagree with that assessment.

[NontheistCleric]

See, the fact that it says it's identical to the first phoenix makes me disagree with that assessment.

The rules text explicitly states that it is a 'new bird', though. Even if it is identical to the old one, it wouldn't be the old one itself.

[Silva Stormrage]

See, the fact that it says it's identical to the first phoenix makes me disagree with that assessment.

See this part of the ability,
This action kills the original phoenix and produces a new one, fully grown and unharmed, from the ashes. This new bird arrives at the end of the round.

Emphasis added. It's a new bird entirely, if it was the same bird it would be phrased differently. "The phoenix's new body reforms at the end of the round" or something to that effect. In addition, you can't really reference "The original phoenix" without having multiple phoenixes involved in the ability.

[Hackulator]

Immolation(Su):

When it knows that death is near, a phoenix immolates itself as a full-round action.

This produces a cloud of flame in a 20-foot-high, 15-foot-radius spread. Each creature in the area takes 40d6 points of damage (reflex half). Half of this damage is fire; the rest results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to reduction.

This action kills the original phoenix and produces a new one, fully grown and unharmed, from the ashes. This new bird arrives at the end of the round.


The character is dead. There is now a new phoenix in his place. The power states that the original creature is dead, and this is a new creature. The power states that the new creature is a phoenix/bird, not anything else.

Edit: To further expound on this, if it was an actual phoenix with class levels and it used this power it would be dead and the new phoenix would NOT have class levels.


See, the fact that it says it's identical to the first phoenix makes me disagree with that assessment.

It does not say that anywhere in the power.

[NontheistCleric]

It does not say that anywhere in the power.

Even if it did, it's not like that would change anything anyway. New is new.

[Hackulator]

Even if it did, it's not like that would change anything anyway. New is new.

If it said the new creature was identical to the old one, you could argue that since the old one had been a druid shapechanged into a phoenix, so was this one. It would, technically, be a new creature, but since it was exactly the same as the old one it would be reasonable that it continued to act in the same way, ie controlled by the player. However, that's all moot cause it doesn't say that at all.

[NontheistCleric]

If it said the new creature was identical to the old one, you could argue that since the old one had been a druid shapechanged into a phoenix, so was this one. It would, technically, be a new creature, but since it was exactly the same as the old one it would be reasonable that it continued to act in the same way, ie controlled by the player. However, that's all moot cause it doesn't say that at all.

Well, yes, but with regards to the OP's question, it still means that the druid wouldn't actually be reborn even if this was the case. It would be more like those times when your character dies and then their identical twin using the same character sheet joins the party.