Superman Vs. Pun-Pun

[Bartmanhomer]

Both of them are overpowered. But I feel that Pun-Pun can destroy Superman by a one-hit KO. So what does anyone else think about it?

[JeenLeen]

Is Superman's strength and durability proportional to the threat, at least in some continuities? I think I read somewhere that Superman's strength is essentially infinite, but it's limited to the needs for the moment, hence explaining him doing stuff like moving planets or moons, but also punching a dude into a building and not leveling the block (or entire city). But I could be thinking of a different hero, or maybe One Punch Man (in an attempt to seriously define his abilities.)

If no, I think Pun-Pun definitely wins, since it's stats and abilities are nigh-infinite (if not literally infinite.)
If yes... I think Pun-Pun would still win.

[Frozen_Feet]

Pun-Pun has two trump cards:

1) ability to limitlessly increase its ability scores
2) ability to abuse a poorly-written clause to grant itself arbitrary new abilities

So while Pun-Pun is not, by default, stronger than Superman, with enough time it can become stronger than any version of Superman with non-infinite power, as well as become able to abuse any and all weaknesses Superman has.

[Seppl]

Pun-Pun in it's most powerful interpretation has the power of the person telling the story. That is at least 3 tiers of reality warping nonsense above Superman.

[GloatingSwine]

Pun-Pun has two trump cards:

1) ability to limitlessly increase its ability scores
2) ability to abuse a poorly-written clause to grant itself arbitrary new abilities

So while Pun-Pun is not, by default, stronger than Superman, with enough time it can become stronger than any version of Superman with non-infinite power, as well as become able to abuse any and all weaknesses Superman has.

Depends which version of Superman.

Because back in the silver age that's basically also what Superman was like. Arbitrarily strong enough and fast enough to do whatever the plot required, and capable of spontaneously generating new and improbable powers which were used once and never again.

[Celestia]

Superman is vulnerable to magic. Pun-Pun has lots of magic. Ergo, Pun-Pun wins.

[khadgar567]

Superman is vulnerable to magic. Pun-Pun has lots of magic. Ergo, Pun-Pun wins.
or major creation and solid knowledge check aka summon kryptonite and let's use a bit of red cloak in here kryptonite golems.

[Rater202]

Is Superman's strength and durability proportional to the threat, at least in some continuities? I think I read somewhere that Superman's strength is essentially infinite, but it's limited to the needs for the moment, hence explaining him doing stuff like moving planets or moons, but also punching a dude into a building and not leveling the block (or entire city). But I could be thinking of a different hero, or maybe One Punch Man (in an attempt to seriously define his abilities.)

If no, I think Pun-Pun definitely wins, since it's stats and abilities are nigh-infinite (if not literally infinite.)
If yes... I think Pun-Pun would still win.

Superman's power is not infinite.

Anyone who says he is is misunderstanding one or two points.

1: That Superman's powers will keep getting stronger as long as he keeps adding yellow or Blue Sunlight to his reserves of stellar energy.

However, Superman only has so much room in his body for solar energy and pushing beyond that can be dangerous and quickly bleeds off. While his reservoir does get bigger, slowly, over time as he acclimates to the constant exposure to sunlight and thus his potential to grow is theoretically infinite, there's a soft limit to how powerful he can be(If he Sun-Dips in a Blue Star and fills his entire reservoir with blue sunlight, that's his theoretical maximum power level.)

And that's not even getting into the fact that there's a finite amount of stellar radiation in the universe.

Also, Superman is consistently severely damaged by Darkseid's Omega beams(sometimes killed in AUs) and Darkseid's Omega beams at full power are less than what is necessary to destroy the Earth. Superman's super-density and psychic force-field are the only defenses that Darkseid doesn't rip through like paper, meaning that Superman isn't even taking the full brunt of the not-enough-to-planet bust attack before he goes down

2: The Book of Infinite Pages.

Let's get this out of the way: The book doesn't literally have infinite pages. Superman said it did, but he was basing that claim on th known fact that th book contained every book that was ever written and ever will be written in every known universe. However, DC only had 12 universes at the time and each universe is finite. In other words, Clark was wrong: The book can't have infinite pages.

Every other description of the book indicates that it contains a finite amount of information.

And the book is also a magic book that is human-sized, and most human-sized beings do not have Superhuman strength. Being magic means that, even if it did have infinite pages, you can't take it for granted that it obeys conventional physics.

As we don't have a defined weight for the book, Superman picking it up is no more impressive than Batman picking up the dictionary.

Superman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, and the strongest non-Ion Green lantern working together to use chains o pull the Earth did so as an extreme effort with each doing roughly equal amounts of pulling. This puts Superman's maximum strength in his default level of power is below what is needed to easily move 3.2925e+24 tons of mass.

Which is still absurdly strong, but despite what some people think Supes is Small Fish on the cosmic scale once you bring him out of his home universe.

[Telonius]

One part of Pun-Pun's ascension is to create nigh-infinite squirrel demigods (in order to get them to give their ranks back to him). So I think the question is really in the wrong comics universe: could Squirrel Girl defeat Pun-Pun? Is Squirrel Girl, Pun-Pun?

[Traab]

Pun pun has the ability to give himself any ability. He has adam west batmans bat belt of convenience, only it works for altering reality to fit. His power list is "Yes" Pun Pun wins.

[JeenLeen]

@Rater202: thank you for that explanation. Much appreciated.


One part of Pun-Pun's ascension is to create nigh-infinite squirrel demigods (in order to get them to give their ranks back to him). So I think the question is really in the wrong comics universe: could Squirrel Girl defeat Pun-Pun? Is Squirrel Girl, Pun-Pun?

If Pun-Pun's abilities let him have knowledge of the Marvel universe (which seems reasonable via some sort of check, if a D&D-vs-DC fight is possible), and thus learns of Squirrel Girl, could he give himself Squirrel Girl's meta-power?

Thus, even if Squirrel Girl is not herself Pun-Pun, Pun-Pun could become the equivalent of Squirrel Girl.

[GloatingSwine]

So I think the question is really in the wrong comics universe: could Squirrel Girl defeat Pun-Pun?

Yes, but it would happen off-panel.

[Rater202]

Yes, but it would happen off-panel.

Squirrel Girl's defeated plenty of people on-panel in the last couple of years.

[Prime32]

Pun-Pun in it's most powerful interpretation has the power of the person telling the story. That is at least 3 tiers of reality warping nonsense above Superman.Nah, Pun-Pun is still one level below the person telling the story. He can rewrite everything up to Rule One, but not Rule Zero.

Among other things, this means he can't rely on "the DM decides what happens" powers like teleport through time, he can theoretically be defeated by the Lady of Pain (who doesn't have stats, just arbitrarily defeats things), and has no defence against the DM declaring "Rocks Fall Everyone Dies".

The question in any "Pun-Pun vs X" debate is whether his opponent's powers are enough of a plot device that they lack "stats" for him to interact with, or they otherwise operate on a higher level of reality than he does (though the latter can get muddy when Pun-Pun is an overdeity).

[LibraryOgre]

She is the UNBEATABLE Squirrel Girl. Pun-Pun doesn't stand a chance.

[Aotrs Commander]

Nah, Pun-Pun is still one level below the person telling the story. He can rewrite everything up to Rule One, but not Rule Zero.

Among other things, this means he can't rely on "the DM decides what happens" powers like teleport through time, he can theoretically be defeated by the Lady of Pain (who doesn't have stats, just arbitrarily defeats things), and has no defence against the DM declaring "Rocks Fall Everyone Dies".

The question in any "Pun-Pun vs X" debate is whether his opponent's powers are enough of a plot device that they lack "stats" for him to interact with, or they otherwise operate on a higher level of reality than he does (though the latter can get muddy when Pun-Pun is an overdeity).

And also how far you want to take the postulated idea from the oringial Pin-Pun post that the wording means he can just make up new supernatural abilities, rather than just crib existing ones.

Just as, for example, adding and SU to the tune of: "can transform at will into a body made of kryptonite [insert overpowered version of Iron Body, but kryptonite]" or "can automatically (no save dominate and permenatnly control all squirrels, squirrel-like creatures or any creature that dervives powers from squirrels or is vaguely squirrel themed which exist in the same universe as him" or "automatically causes any DM in any universe trying to take action against him to instantly die of a heart attack" if you want to get really silly...

[Rater202]

She is the UNBEATABLE Squirrel Girl. Pun-Pun doesn't stand a chance.

Squirrel Girl and Gwenpool canonically beat up Mephisto in his own Hell-Realm.

The only other person to do that was Franklin "literally creates entire universes for fun" Richards.

[Friv]

She is the UNBEATABLE Squirrel Girl. Pun-Pun doesn't stand a chance.

I mean, that's just a thing she calls herself. She has been beaten - just not when it counts.

My guess is, Squirrel Girl would beat Pun-Pun the same way that she beat Galactus - by finding a way to reach his extra-planar realm, and then sitting down and having a serious discussion with him about why he even wants to be a god, culminating in Pun-Pun pledging to use his divine powers for good and then the last panel is just Pun-Pun showing up in Asgard with a big goofy grin and asking where Thor is because Squirrel Girl said he was, quote, "good at that god stuff" unquote.

[Devonix]

Since the book of infinite pages was brought up again. People seem to miss the point of it. Yes, it does have infinite pages, it is a book of stories, All stories, even the book the reader is currently reading. That's the point of it.

That said, it's not something that can be used really as a feat of weight, because weighing the book would be like weighing the imagination of every person on the planet.

How much does a dream weigh? Because that's the type of question you ask when you try to ascribe a story about imagination, into some weight lifting feat.

It's like people who joke about the Never Ending Story having an ending. It doesn't, that's the point, the Never ending story doesn't end, because the story continues in the reader's or the viewers own imagination, It's Never Ending.

[Rater202]

Since the book of infinite pages was brought up again. People seem to miss the point of it. Yes, it does have infinite pages, it is a book of stories, All stories, even the book the reader is currently reading. That's the point of it.

That said, it's not something that can be used really as a feat of weight, because weighing the book would be like weighing the imagination of every person on the planet.

How much does a dream weigh? Because that's the type of question you ask when you try to ascribe a story about imagination, into some weight lifting feat.

It's like people who joke about the Never Ending Story having an ending. It doesn't, that's the point, the Never ending story doesn't end, because the story continues in the reader's or the viewers own imagination, It's Never Ending.I think that falls under "even if it is literally infinteit's a magic book and therefore can't be said to obey conventional physics."

[Devonix]

I think that falls under "even if it is literally infinteit's a magic book and therefore can't be said to obey conventional physics."

That's what I just said. The entire story is about imagination, stories and how they affect the world around us. It's why the thought robot was able to see beyond the page and observe the reader. Superman is as powerful as the story needs him to be. Because that's how powerful all characters all stories are.

Going back to Stan Lee's Who would win, the answer is always whoever the writer wants to win. Sometimes that's part of the narritive, like in a lot of Superman stories, where him winning, is not just about how powerful he is, but what his winning is supposed to say about what the writer is writing.

[Rater202]

That's what I just said. The entire story is about imagination, stories and how they affect the world around us. It's why the thought robot was able to see beyond the page and observe the reader. Superman is as powerful as the story needs him to be. Because that's how powerful all characters all stories are.

Going back to Stan Lee's Who would win, the answer is always whoever the writer wants to win. Sometimes that's part of the narritive, like in a lot of Superman stories, where him winning, is not just about how powerful he is, but what his winning is supposed to say about what the writer is writing.

I was trying to point out that I myself had already said that.
And the book is also a magic book that is human-sized, and most human-sized beings do not have Superhuman strength. Being magic means that, even if it did have infinite pages, you can't take it for granted that it obeys conventional physics.

[Devonix]

And I said it before you did when I explained why it didn't mean Superman could lift infinity.

You were still going on about it only having pages from a limited number of universes, and speaking of it as a physical thing. That's the part I was disputing there. Your statements were still treating it as something with possible mass.

[Rater202]

You were still going on about it only having pages from a limited number of universes, and speaking of it as a physical thing. That's the part I was disputing there. Your statements were still treating it as something with possible mass.

"Even if" indicates that this is a separate argument from the previous argument.

Though the story itself does treat the book as an object with physical properties.

[Lemmy]

Considering that the book isn't destroying the whole universe with the infinity gravitational pull caused by something with infinity mass and isn't occupying every space ever with its infinity size... It's pretty clear that whatever supernatural properties it has make calling it "infinity" basically pointless for measuring anything.

Hell! It isn't even crushing its pedestal!

[Dr.Samurai]

Both of them are overpowered. But I feel that Pun-Pun can destroy Superman by a one-hit KO. So what does anyone else think about it?
It really depends on what Superman can do before we determine how Pun-Pun would destroy him :smallwink:.

Also, check my avatar for a depiction of Pun-Pun at level 1 reading his book of ancient beings to learn about Pazuzu. You'll see one of the Nut-Puns there as well :smallamused:.

[Aotrs Commander]

It really depends on what Superman can do before we determine how Pun-Pun would destroy him :smallwink:.

Also, check my avatar for a depiction of Pun-Pun at level 1 reading his book of ancient beings to learn about Pazuzu. You'll see one of the Nut-Puns there as well :smallamused:.

You know, I never realised until now it were you!

Shows how much attention I generally pay to people's avatars (until the change them...) and signitures, don't it?



Well, folks, can't have it said much better than from the man hisself, can we?

[Traab]

Considering that the book isn't destroying the whole universe with the infinity gravitational pool caused by something with infinity mass and isn't occupying every space ever with its infinity size... It's pretty clear that whatever supernatural properties it has make calling it "infinity" basically pointless for measuring anything.

Hell! It isn't even crushing its pedestal!

Bah, thats because the pedestal it is on is infinitely dense while the universe its in is infinitely large. On top of all that, the argument is infinitely stupid, which means it warps back around to being UTTER GENIUS!

[Magic_Hat]

So I just did a Google search for Pun-Pun because I have no idea who/what he/she/it is. What I found was "god of munchkin-ery" and some kind of crudely drawn bird thing.

Anyone what to elaborate because I have no idea if my search results were even close.

[The Glyphstone]

So I just did a Google search for Pun-Pun because I have no idea who/what he/she/it is. What I found was "god of munchkin-ery" and some kind of crudely drawn bird thing.

Anyone what to elaborate because I have no idea if my search results were even close.

Short summary:

Pun-Pun is the pinnacle of theoretical optimization, a character with NI=Infinity in every aspect of its character. The core of the build is a specific, vaguely and poorly worded ability from a single semi-obscure monster in the Serpent Kingdoms splatbook of 3.5, called the Sarrukh - it has a power called Manipulate Form that allows it to change the stats or abilities of any 'scaled one'. Through assorted shenanigans, you start with a Kobold (thus counting as a Scaled One) and have it gain the ability to use Manipulate Form on itself. From there, assorted other TO loops and tricks permit it to become an infinitely powerful god with infinite stats, infinite abilities, infinite skills, and pretty much infinite infinities.

[Aotrs Commander]

So I just did a Google search for Pun-Pun because I have no idea who/what he/she/it is. What I found was "god of munchkin-ery" and some kind of crudely drawn bird thing.

Anyone what to elaborate because I have no idea if my search results were even close.

Pun-Pun (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?469041-The-most-powerful-character-EVER-Pun-Pun) or as close, as I think, you will get since (now!) Dr.Samurai's original post on the WotC boards went along with it.

The long of the short of it is Pun-Pun is an exercise from the old WotC builds for D&D 3.5 in the ultimate theorhetical optimisation (note the "theorhetical, it's VERY important!), using abilities - and in particular, an incredible poorly-worded ability from one of the Forgotten Realms source-books from an obscure monster - to create an unlimitedly powerful character build. (I suspect a lot of Pun-Pun's traction also stems from Dr.Samurai choosing to do it with a Kobold with a catchy-name, but it is, I recall pretty possible to do with anything, though without reading it all again, being reptilian/draconic makes it a little easier.)

The original build was at 12th level, but thanks to Pazuzu-abuse, it can be done at first level.



The god-of munchkin-ery part followed from that.

[Ibrinar]

It abuses some rules to gain stats of arbitrary height, divinity and apparently whatever abilities it wants https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)
Edit: ah didn't see the next page.

[Dr.Samurai]

Pun-Pun (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?469041-The-most-powerful-character-EVER-Pun-Pun) or as close, as I think, you will get since (now!) Dr.Samurai's original post on the WotC boards went along with it.

The long of the short of it is Pun-Pun is an exercise from the old WotC builds for D&D 3.5 in the ultimate theorhetical optimisation (note the "theorhetical, it's VERY important!), using abilities - and in particular, an incredible poorly-worded ability from one of the Forgotten Realms source-books from an obscure monster - to create an unlimitedly powerful character build. (I suspect a lot of Pun-Pun's traction also stems from Dr.Samurai choosing to do it with a Kobold with a catchy-name, but it is, I recall pretty possible to do with anything, though without reading it all again, being reptilian/draconic makes it a little easier.)

The original build was at 12th level, but thanks to Pazuzu-abuse, it can be done at first level.



The god-of munchkin-ery part followed from that.
This is all spot on. I was afraid if I tried to make it a cool bad-ass theoretical build people would be turned off to it because it would be like someone bragging about something so obviously broken and impossible to use at an actual table. So I tried to make it more goofy and funny by making it a kobold (one of the weaker monsters) and giving it a goofy name, because I was more interested in where we could take it.

Still, it received a mix of hate and interest, but I think that's normal. We had a lot of fun messing around with it, and it spawned a sub-forum off the CO forum (Theoretical Optimization).

So another poster (Ex_Machina, I think) had posted a build that used Manipulate Form to do something else. Nothing on a par with Pun-Pun. But when I looked at the ability to follow along with what they were doing, I realized it could be used to do much more, and that's when I posted "The Most Powerful Character. Ever."

I totally forgot the 1st level version was a Psion. I thought I made him a paladin. Maybe there's a version in the original thread where he's a paladin.

[The Glyphstone]

IIRC, he was a Paladin at one point because Pazuzu is said to deal more 'fairly' with Paladins - he likes corrupting them more than most, so he won't screw them on the first deal he makes.