So, if the Gods of a single quiddity can't create a snarl by disagreeing...

[SilverCacaobean]

...why have a godsmoot at all? Why not meet in person and only use clerics to communicate with the other pantheons?

I'm assuming that a disagreement of Gods of a single quiddity either can't create a snarl at all, or can create a 1 colour snarl based on this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html) I'm also assuming that a one colour snarl isn't dangerous to Gods because the reason Thor gives for the snarl being more powerful than them is that it has more colours (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html).

I thought the godsmoot and all its weird rules existed to avoid snarl 2.0 but I'd never thought about it again after we learned about quiddities. If these assumptions are correct, it's not the case.

Sorry if it's already been discussed in some comic discussion thread. If it has, I must have missed it.

[Fyraltari]

...why have a godsmoot at all? Why not meet in person and only use clerics to communicate with the other pantheons?

I'm assuming that a disagreement of Gods of a single quiddity either can't create a snarl at all, or can create a 1 colour snarl based on this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html) I'm also assuming that a one colour snarl isn't dangerous to Gods because the reason Thor gives for the snarl being more powerful than them is that it has more colours (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html).

I thought the godsmoot and all its weird rules existed to avoid snarl 2.0 but I'd never thought about it again after we learned about quiddities. If these assumptions are correct, it's not the case.

Sorry if it's already been discussed in some comic discussion thread. If it has, I must have missed it.

The real reason? No plot if they did.

The watsonian reason? Nobody is going to punch anybody in the face if they are arguing by Cleric-Skype.

[hroþila]

The Godsmoot reduces overt conflict, which is in the gods' interest even if conflict won't inevitably result in being unmade by the Snarl. Furthermore, it makes it easier for the gods at the top to control access to the vote by establishing who can and who cannot participate. It would be much harder to keep Hel out of it if it was a direct meeting, for example. It also gives their high priests something important to do, which is probably beneficial and helps getting them committed to their patron deities.

[SilverCacaobean]

The real reason? No plot if they did.

Actually, there could be a plot still. Not only that, the plot could be about the same with a few tweaks. If they met in person, Hel would get a vote without Greg, the vote could go the way it did with a stalemate that had to be resolved by Dvalin, and Greg's plan would be to go to the firmament to influence the vote. A lot of what happened at the godsmoot could happen there and the character interactions needn't change too much.


The watsonian reason? Nobody is going to punch anybody in the face if they are arguing by Cleric-Skype.

This is a good reason but for certain decisions that need to be made quickly, like snarl related things, they could meet in person.


The Godsmoot reduces overt conflict, which is in the gods' interest even if conflict won't inevitably result in being unmade by the Snarl. Furthermore, it makes it easier for the gods at the top to control access to the vote by establishing who can and who cannot participate. It would be much harder to keep Hel out of it if it was a direct meeting, for example. It also gives their high priests something important to do, which is probably beneficial and helps getting them committed to their patron deities.

Bolding mine, because I think that's a particularly compelling reason. That seems very likely.

[Fyraltari]

The Godsmoot reduces overt conflict, which is in the gods' interest even if conflict won't inevitably result in being unmade by the Snarl. Furthermore, it makes it easier for the gods at the top to control access to the vote by establishing who can and who cannot participate. It would be much harder to keep Hel out of it if it was a direct meeting, for example. It also gives their high priests something important to do, which is probably beneficial and helps getting them committed to their patron deities.
That's assuming that was an intended consequence (Hel thinks so but she might be a tad paranoid) and that gods other than Loki cared about it.

Actually, there could be a plot still. Not only that, the plot could be about the same with a few tweaks. If they met in person, Hel would get a vote without Greg, the vote could go the way it did with a stalemate that had to be resolved by Dvalin, and Greg's plan would be to go to the firmament to influence the vote. A lot of what happened at the godsmoot could happen there and the character interactions needn't change too much.
If Hel did not need a priest at the Moot then Durkon* would not have gone there and Roy would have never learned what he was trying to do and that he was in fact not Durkon.

[SilverCacaobean]

That's assuming that was an intended consequence (Hel thinks so but she might be a tad paranoid) and that gods other than Loki cared about it.

If Hel did not need a priest at the Moot then Durkon* would not have gone there and Roy would have never learned what he was trying to do and that he was in fact not Durkon.

That's why I said it would need a few tweaks. Instead of the godsmoot, Greg would have to convince Roy to go to the vote at the firmament somehow, where Roy could find out about his true identity. The elder clan vote could have been upped in importance a bit to make it more similar to the godsmoot to preserve the character interactions.

[factotum]

We've seen that gods of the same quiddity can both meet up and even fight without risking a Snarl--see Thor vs. Loki in one of the early strips, for instance. A meeting where *all* the gods of a particular quiddity come together is something special, though, and the pomp and circumstance around it reflects that. It's like all business meetings *could* be held via Skype, but business leaders still go to a lot of effort to fly places and have meetings.

[Fyraltari]

They need a neutral meeting ground and they have one already set up for inter-pantheon discussions. Might as well use it for intra- too.

[D.One]

The material plane seems to be (as it happens in many DnD scenarios) some sort of neutral ground for the gods, and their rules seem to prevent them from entering freely, so one of the reasons for the godsmoot format might be that: to be able to meet in the material plane, even indirectly.

Another reason might be due to pantheon interactions. Even if it's reasonably safe to gather a bunch of same color gods, when more than one family must reach a decision, it's probably safer to have a systen that makes comunication less personal.

[SilverCacaobean]

We've seen that gods of the same quiddity can both meet up and even fight without risking a Snarl--see Thor vs. Loki in one of the early strips, for instance. A meeting where *all* the gods of a particular quiddity come together is something special, though, and the pomp and circumstance around it reflects that. It's like all business meetings *could* be held via Skype, but business leaders still go to a lot of effort to fly places and have meetings.

The gods are something like reverse business leaders then, holding important meetings via Skype (Well, summon proxy. Sproxy?) and small informal ones personally :smalltongue:

[Jasdoif]

The Godsmoot reduces overt conflict, which is in the gods' interest even if conflict won't inevitably result in being unmade by the Snarl. Furthermore, it makes it easier for the gods at the top to control access to the vote by establishing who can and who cannot participate. It would be much harder to keep Hel out of it if it was a direct meeting, for example. It also gives their high priests something important to do, which is probably beneficial and helps getting them committed to their patron deities.On top of all this....Having multi-pantheon votes conducted via high priests, means that the representatives from the other pantheons can independently verify the results of the vote for those pantheons; whereas having their own observing deity at another pantheon's meetings could result in a Snarl situation...as could accusations of vote-rigging by another pantheon's lead/trickster deity...as could accusations of ill intent over refusal of having a means of verification such as that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

To throw my own two cents at the ring, I think the gods decided on inter-pantheon meetings rules first, and then decided to use those same rules for intra-pantheon ones because it was easier than coming up with a second set of rules for those. While the Snarl and the creation of news ones is the major concern, there might be other concerns that really recommend sticking to protocol when they all get together even if it is within the family.

Grey Wolf

[Goblin_Priest]

...why have a godsmoot at all? Why not meet in person and only use clerics to communicate with the other pantheons?

I'm assuming that a disagreement of Gods of a single quiddity either can't create a snarl at all, or can create a 1 colour snarl based on this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html) I'm also assuming that a one colour snarl isn't dangerous to Gods because the reason Thor gives for the snarl being more powerful than them is that it has more colours (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html).

I thought the godsmoot and all its weird rules existed to avoid snarl 2.0 but I'd never thought about it again after we learned about quiddities. If these assumptions are correct, it's not the case.

Sorry if it's already been discussed in some comic discussion thread. If it has, I must have missed it.

The Snarl has more colors now, because it destroyed an entire color. I don't see any reason to believe that a lesser snarl would be incapable of destroying those that yielded it, as the past one did.

[Anymage]

Watsonian logic, I can think of two reasons.

The first is simply that fights are going to hurt the participants and any bystanders, and you have a lot of strong opinions where not all the opinion holders are Good. Add in the fact that meeting in person would raise the question of whose domain the meeting would be held on, and meeting by proxy on the prime removes the chance of a nasty brawl if discussions get particularly heated. Nobody gets homecourt advantage/risks getting their own place messed up, and there's greatly reduced chance of a disagreement snowballing.

Second, I wouldn't be surprised if there were times that inter-pantheonic interactions had to happen and the frameworks were built around that. Both habit and the idea that god rules must be observed at all times would then cause intra-pantheonic interactions to stick to the same framework.

[Zenzis]

I don't think I could take a tiger in a fight but I could probably win against a coyote. That doesn't mean I go around recklessly picking fights with coyotes though.

[NerdyKris]

Yeah, I don't see why we're saying a one color snarl can't kill a one color pantheon. It absolutely can. It can kill gods of any pantheon, it just wouldn't be able to destroy multi color things. The first Snarl struck and destroyed an entire pantheon. Any Snarl can do the same. The gods don't want to die, so they don't risk creating a new Snarl, even if the other pantheons can just destroy it after it reveals itself. There's no plot hole, unless you consider "I don't want to die" a plot hole.

[hroþila]

Who said anything about plot holes? "I noticed this thing, what are the implications of the thing?" doesn't mean "I found a plot hole!!!1".

[NerdyKris]

I mispoke. I meant the "because there'd be no plot if they didn't" implies there's no in universe reason for it, when there is.

[Fyraltari]

The Snarl has more colors now, because it destroyed an entire color. I don't see any reason to believe that a lesser snarl would be incapable of destroying those that yielded it, as the past one did.

The Snarl who was made of four colours killed the Eastern Pantheon who ws made of of only one colour. Yjis is not analogous to a one-colour snarling attacking a pantheon. Thor even says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html) that a one colour creation can be unmade with a wave.

[SilverCacaobean]

Lots of good points here. I thought of a couple of things myself.

In the OP I also kinda didn't take into account that a lot of the rules aren't there just to prevent another snarl. For example the "no backsies" rule, that Loki pushed for. I lot of them must be there to avoid tricks and stuff like that. A lot of the contrived ones must be there because of something that has happened in some previous godsmoot and given how many worlds there have been, there must have been a lot of godsmoots. I imagine that after all this is done there's going to be a lot more rules next godsmoot.

Also a godsmoot by proxy might also make it easier to enforce those rules.

[factotum]

The Snarl who was made of four colours killed the Eastern Pantheon who ws made of of only one colour. Yjis is not analogous to a one-colour snarling attacking a pantheon. Thor even says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html) that a one colour creation can be unmade with a wave.

Yeah, this. A single-colour Snarl would be absolutely trivial for the Gods to destroy, if we take Thor's statements about quiddity at face value. I suspect that even the two-colour Snarl resulting from his suggested meeting with the Dark One wouldn't actually be too much of a problem for them to get rid of--it would just require more than one pantheon to work together to do it.

[Riftwolf]

Something just occurred to me; having the Godsmoot sets a time limit on the voting to prevent centuries of pontificating. Gods have to vote within the lifetime of their mortal high priest.
Then they invented Elves and everything went to hell XD

[Dentarthur]

Before making the world, the pantheons agreed on a bunch of rules for how to handle big questions. These rules are binding to intra-pantheon decisions that affect inter-pantheon issues. The Northern pantheon (minus Hel, who was being secretive on purpose) *did* discuss the end-of-the-world question at length before the moot, but they still had to go through the motions to make it official.

[Rrmcklin]

Yeah, I don't see why we're saying a one color snarl can't kill a one color pantheon. It absolutely can. It can kill gods of any pantheon, it just wouldn't be able to destroy multi color things. The first Snarl struck and destroyed an entire pantheon. Any Snarl can do the same. The gods don't want to die, so they don't risk creating a new Snarl, even if the other pantheons can just destroy it after it reveals itself. There's no plot hole, unless you consider "I don't want to die" a plot hole.

Thor specifically mentions that things made only of one color are ethereal and easily erased by any of the gods, so I don't know why you think a "one color Snarl" even if it could exist would actually be a threat to any of them.

Though, as was already said, the term plot hole was not used.

[Goblin_Priest]

Watsonian logic, I can think of two reasons.

The first is simply that fights are going to hurt the participants and any bystanders, and you have a lot of strong opinions where not all the opinion holders are Good. Add in the fact that meeting in person would raise the question of whose domain the meeting would be held on, and meeting by proxy on the prime removes the chance of a nasty brawl if discussions get particularly heated. Nobody gets homecourt advantage/risks getting their own place messed up, and there's greatly reduced chance of a disagreement snowballing.

Second, I wouldn't be surprised if there were times that inter-pantheonic interactions had to happen and the frameworks were built around that. Both habit and the idea that god rules must be observed at all times would then cause intra-pantheonic interactions to stick to the same framework.

Sure, I could think of many reasons why a one color snarl either wouldn't be possible, or wouldn't be able to kill any gods. Just as I can think of reasons for the opposite to be true. The story has not really provided any evidence to make any assumption on the subject.

[The Pilgrim]

...why have a godsmoot at all? Why not meet in person and only use clerics to communicate with the other pantheons?

Maybe the Gods of a single Pantheon can't create a single-color Snarl. But they can still certainly kill each other personally.

[Ornithologist]

My understanding of the reason for the godsmoot in universe is to keep the gods physically apart while still communicating in a full meeting. This keeps them apart incase the Snarl breaks free in any given moment.

The more gods are near each otherphyscally, the bigger the target is.

[rbetieh]

I mean, story-wise, we needed a motivation for Hel and this was her fist motivation (bet made it impossible to get a voice at the moot, so she is even less relevant than the demigods, practically she isnt a god at all). That is why one of the demigods says this was a protest vote.... Of course this raises a weird issue, if most demigods die when the world is unmade due to lack of nutrients...why would ANY demigod vote yes?

I think it may come down to the gods not having time for meetings and running the day to day of their portfolios. This way they can just put on the headphones and pipe up when they absolutely have to. But note, they are talking amoung themselves because Loki was chosen to speak for one group and Heimdall for the other...

[Jasdoif]

Of course this raises a weird issue, if most demigods die when the world is unmade due to lack of nutrients...why would ANY demigod vote yes?I would guess most demigods don't die when the world is unmade; that "new gods" and "demigods" are not synonymous.

[Fyraltari]

if most demigods die when the world is unmade due to lack of nutrients...why would ANY demigod vote yes?

That's not what Thor said though. He said he had seen gods with more followers than the Dark One (who is a major god) fail to make it. that says neither most, nor demi nor ascended mortals*.

Thor could be talking about two ascended major gods.

*Though I believe that last one is implied by the context of the discussion and the fact that the original gods apparently could survive without worshippers originally.

[SilverCacaobean]

Maybe the Gods of a single Pantheon can't create a single-color Snarl. But they can still certainly kill each other personally.

Not sure they can kill each other. I vaguely remember a comment by the Giant saying they could kill the Dark One when he first ascended. Then and only then. I'll go look for it.

Edit: That was fast! Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14473844&postcount=32). Not sure if it means that they can't kill each other, though, or that the Dark One just won't give them a chance to do it anymore...

[Chronos]

The gods of each pantheon are meeting in person. The godsmoot is just how that happens.

Remember, the gods are shaped by belief. The way gods interact directly is by their followers interacting. When we see Thor and Loki fighting, for instance, that's a reflection of Thor's followers and Loki's followers fighting. So, in order for all of the gods of a pantheon to interact directly with each other, they have to all have followers directly interacting at the same time. Which is what the godsmoot is.

[Snails]

I would guess most demigods don't die when the world is unmade; that "new gods" and "demigods" are not synonymous.

Sure. Being a part of an established pantheon, e.g. the named charioteer son of the Sun, must provide a good supply of belief from all the followers to a pantheon to fatten them up.

Dvalin however seems to be beholden to very specific concrete dwarven traditions, which is strong circumstantial evidence he is both from this world and possibly unknown to Northern pantheon followers who are not dwarves.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

If this hasn't been mentioned, the snarl can only be created from multi color disagreements. Note that the blue and red quiddity gods are at their own gatherings, and no quarrel is had with their gods' choices. A 1 color snarl can be dealt with easily if it did form.

[Rrmcklin]

The gods of each pantheon are meeting in person. The godsmoot is just how that happens.

Remember, the gods are shaped by belief. The way gods interact directly is by their followers interacting. When we see Thor and Loki fighting, for instance, that's a reflection of Thor's followers and Loki's followers fighting. So, in order for all of the gods of a pantheon to interact directly with each other, they have to all have followers directly interacting at the same time. Which is what the godsmoot is.

No, Thor and Loki fighting directly is Thor and Loki fighting directly.

"Shaped by belief" was never implied to affect literally ever single thing they do at all times like you're implying. It just meant that how their followers perceive them can, over time, change how they actually are.

[The Pilgrim]

Not sure they can kill each other. I vaguely remember a comment by the Giant saying they could kill the Dark One when he first ascended. Then and only then. I'll go look for it.

Edit: That was fast! Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14473844&postcount=32). Not sure if it means that they can't kill each other, though, or that the Dark One just won't give them a chance to do it anymore...

I assume the latter. Gods can be killed in DnD, and nothing in OOTS suggests otherwise. The Dark One was weak when he was reborn as a God and could have been easily killed by another Deity. But after some time gathering power from goblin worship he became too strong to be attacked directly without risk.

And if you are a God, geetting killed is just one of the things you must fear from your peers. There are a lot more unpleasant things a God can do to you: Crippling you, sealing you in a prison plane, binding your soul to an artifact and tap it for power, fool you into a stupid bet that devastates your power-base... just to name a few.

[Emanick]

And if you ate a God, geetting killed is just one of the things you must fear from your peers.

Just look at what happened to Kronos! :smalleek:

[The Pilgrim]

Just look at what happened to Kronos! :smalleek:

Yep. The whole drama couldd have been avoided if Kronos and his sons had limited their contact to just communications by proxy.

[skaddix]

I assume its because all High Priest have their Main Temple on the Continent their Pantheon is from. Ergo since OOTS Verse is not all that high level. Epic Level Characters are Pretty Rare. High Level 16-20 Characters are Rare. They are not going to have everyone teleport with ease to the same location not to mention I am guessing Pantheons don't trust each other all that much so all three don't get together at the same location.

[eilandesq]

We saw at least two separate incidents where two gods in the same pantheon were directly fighting (Thor/Surtur, Thor/Loki), with no apparent side effects other than Thor and Loki being nauseated by dwarf cleric sex, and dozens of helpless people dying at the hands of Surtur because Thor had to deal with Durkon's routine spell needs in the middle of a deific battle. If one color Snarls were a real problem for such encounters, they'd be banned too. My guess is it's the multiple colors that give the Snarl its sentience along with its general power, so yanking one or more colors from the equation might not produce a Snarl at all (although obviously they don't want to take the chance).

[Caerulea]

if most demigods die when the world is unmade due to lack of nutrients...why would ANY demigod vote yes?
Care for mortal souls?

—Caerulea

[ijuinkun]

My guess is it's the multiple colors that give the Snarl its sentience along with its general power, so yanking one or more colors from the equation might not produce a Snarl at all (although obviously they don't want to take the chance).

Given that Thor said that it explicitly takes multiple colors to create Mortals--i.e. free-willed beings capable of generating energy via Worship and Belief, etc.--and that one-color constructs are supposedly ephemeral, I would agree with this conjecture.

[Necris Omega]

The Dark One being at risk of starvation always seemed kind of odd to me.

Sure, he might be the "new" kid on the block, but to his credit, he is by all evidence a) the singular god of "pantheon" and b) the singular god for all Goblinoid races, which generally produce members at a rabbitous rate.

Maybe it's one of those bogus "oh, and Half-Elves cannot be resurrected because they have no souls" sorts of arrangements where goblinoid worship is worth less than that of other creatures. Not saying it's nice/fair, but that's the universe of OoTS for you.

Then again, those two factors might be the only thing making him a god in the first place. Shouldn't undersell the whole "path to godhood" thing.

[Rrmcklin]

The Dark One being at risk of starvation always seemed kind of odd to me.

Sure, he might be the "new" kid on the block, but to his credit, he is by all evidence a) the singular god of "pantheon" and b) the singular god for all Goblinoid races, which generally produce members at a rabbitous rate.

Maybe it's one of those bogus "oh, and Half-Elves cannot be resurrected because they have no souls" sorts of arrangements where goblinoid worship is worth less than that of other creatures. Not saying it's nice/fair, but that's the universe of OoTS for you.

Then again, those two factors might be the only thing making him a god in the first place. Shouldn't undersell the whole "path to godhood" thing.

Thor says if he had more time he could survive, but he hasn't been around long enough. Nothing strange about it. Thor specifically notes he's seen gods who have had more than the Dark One still fail to survive.

[Goblin_Priest]

The Dark One being at risk of starvation always seemed kind of odd to me.

Sure, he might be the "new" kid on the block, but to his credit, he is by all evidence a) the singular god of "pantheon" and b) the singular god for all Goblinoid races, which generally produce members at a rabbitous rate.

Maybe it's one of those bogus "oh, and Half-Elves cannot be resurrected because they have no souls" sorts of arrangements where goblinoid worship is worth less than that of other creatures. Not saying it's nice/fair, but that's the universe of OoTS for you.

Then again, those two factors might be the only thing making him a god in the first place. Shouldn't undersell the whole "path to godhood" thing.

Sure, there's lots of goblinoids, but did we really get in Canon that gets them all?

There's also the time thing. For how long has he been getting souls?

Then make that relative to the age of this world?

Then consider that the older gods possibly started this world with significant surpluses from previous ones?

And I do think they've stated that not all souls are equal, right? More powerful souls, better fuel? As such, puny goblinoids might not be very sustaining, despite quantity?

[The MunchKING]

Thor specifically mentions that things made only of one color are ethereal and easily erased by any of the gods, so I don't know why you think a "one color Snarl" even if it could exist would actually be a threat to any of them.

I thought the idea was Snarls were "more real" than what ever illusions Thor waves up because it involved the fighters grabbing Threads of Reality to fight with .

[NoHaxJustPi]

I'd imagine that more hostility within a pantheon would make that pantheon act more hostile, and if a pantheon acts more hostile, they could create another two or three color Snarl that isn't trapped yet. Sorry for posting a week after the last post, but i looked at this thread and had that idea.

[Rrmcklin]

I thought the idea was Snarls were "more real" than what ever illusions Thor waves up because it involved the fighters grabbing Threads of Reality to fight with .

No, he specifically attributes it to it being made of more "colors" than anything else.

[Crixus33]

I don't think I saw anyone else mention this, but a possibility would be safety of the pantheon as whole. The last time a pantheon was fully assembled it was during the creation of the first world, and the Eastern pantheon got wiped out by the Snarl. If they meet via clerics they all don't have to be physically together. Thus if the Snarl were to break free at that moment it couldn't (by chance or design) attack all the gods at once destroying the pantheon. By using the Godsmoot, if the Snarl suddenly breaks free it could take down a few gods sure, but the pantheon as whole could scatter and potentially survive. I think the most gods physically together at one time that we've seen are Thor, Loki, Rat, Tiamat, and the Dark One. Even in this scenario all of them are from different pantheons (save Loki and Thor) so if the Snarl ambushed them the Pantheons as whole would still be spared. In a single pantheon, I think its only ever been three physically together as seen in the comic.

Just a thought.