Sweet Polly Oliver

[strangebloke]

A woman disguises herself as a man and goes to war. Whether you're talking about "Sweet Polly Oliver" or Mulan or half a dozen others, its definitely a staple fantasy trope.

Now in DND, of course, there needs to be a contrived reason for this beyond the usual "woman wanting to go to war" since female fighters are generally common and nobody would look twice at you. Perhaps, for example, your character is just cross-dressing as part of a general disguise to hide from her family.

I've twice had players try this out, and I've seen two other players try it at other tables.

So my question is: How would you deal with this, mechanically? My approach has typically been to require no disguise rolls at all. You aren't trying to look like a specific man, you're just generally trying to look mannish, and while you might be a 'girlish' it isn't as though that's such a distinctive qualifier as to merit suspicion.

However, I've also maintained that if anyone ever has to treat your wounds or spend a long time in close physical contact, that they'll just automatically know.

Thoughts?

[LibraryOgre]

What sort of Monstrous Regiment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monstrous_Regiment_(novel))are you enlisting in, StrangeBloke?

I would require a disguise roll BUT it would be a very easy one, because you're not trying to disguise yourself as anyone real, so there's no chance someone knows you're not Fa Ping because they know Fa Ping. What you are trying to do, however, is disguise yourself as something you are not (assuming there are marked behavioral differences between men and women). You'll need to disguise gait and speech and mannerisms and somehow not produce half an onion to liven up supper when it's time to cook. If you're busty, you'll have to bind; if the trousers are tight, you'll have to pack. It is still a disguise... but it's one that will be harder to pierce, because they have to recognize you're acting like Not a Man, rather than acting as a slightly atypical man.

In 5e terms? I might give you free advantage on it. Or double proficiency bonus.

[Unoriginal]

Charisma (Deception) or use of a disguise kit (or improvised equivalent).

[Segev]

Charisma (Deception) or use of a disguise kit (or improvised equivalent).

Both, really; I think the latter just gives proficiency bonuses to the former. Regardless, it's a Disguise check opposed by the Wisdom (Sense Motive) check of anybody who's got reason to be suspicious of you.

[MagneticKitty]

If they're doing this for story reasons take the secret identity background and reflavor for gender instead of race
https://dnd5e.fandom.com/wiki/Secret_Identity
Seems to assume you can hide as your one specific alter ego without problems

[Ganymede]

One of my players wanted to do this (female half elf bard that posed as a man, a la Orlando), and I just had her devote her PC's background feature to it. After that, I didn't require any rolls or anything to maintain the ruse; background features generally trump certain roleplay/exploration challenges, after all.

[DeTess]

I'd say it's definitely the disguise skill. Convincingly presenting as a gender that does not match your physical sex is not easy, and the disguise skill is the best way to mechanically represent it.

[Anonymouswizard]

The few times I've played a transgender character it was always handwaved as 'you've probably presented as your gender for years, no need to roll'.

Now I've never had a non-trans character disguise their sex for an extended period of time, but for a shorter period of time it's been a Check using either Charisma (Deception) or Charisma (Disguise Kit)*.

* Once in a GURPS game we used the Acting skill.

[opaopajr]

It only matters as much as the setting cares about it, and its lengths the cultural domain goes through to keep the distinction. Some settings are naturally ambivalent or already have a societal role for those who are (what our modern Western society now term) transgender. The point for this fun players are seeking would need a society where it DOES matter and it IS a challenge.

That then is entirely on you and your setting's cultural domain. Anything from Deception, Performance, Disguise Kit, or armors might work for your desired setting. Some gear may make things easier (Padded Armor, tabbards, and unisex pageboy haircut?), perhaps even a few co-conspirators (a few skilled and or unskilled servants) to attest and help out, could be means to enliven this ruse.

Talk to the player what sort of complexity and stakes they are interested in enduring, and then go have fun with it! :smallsmile:

[Unoriginal]

Then again, the more important question is: "what happen if the PC get found out? Are the consequences meaningful?"

If it doesn't matter if she is discovered to be a woman, then there is no check.

As 5e's ability checks happen when the chances of failure and success both exist (which is the case here) and that the consequences for failure are meaningful.

My earlier answer supposed there were meaningful consequences if the person attempting get found out, but honestly, as OP said unless the society a woman doing this is part of disapprove of fighting women, there should be no important consequences. Even if it's something like "hiding from her family", then it's more a question of pretending to be someone else than pretending to be another gender.




Also, not to be overly pedantic, but there is no "disguise checks" or disguise skills in 5e. Terminology is kinda important here.

[Segev]

The few times I've played a transgender character it was always handwaved as 'you've probably presented as your gender for years, no need to roll'.

This leads to the amusing notion of a trans-gender character having to roll to impersonate their own biological gender if forced to dress like one. Which makes one ask: what does the result of a failed effort to disguise lead to? Biologically, they really are what they're presenting as in disguise.

[MagneticKitty]

This leads to the amusing notion of a trans-gender character having to roll to impersonate their own biological gender if forced to dress like one. Which makes one ask: what does the result of a failed effort to disguise lead to? Biologically, they really are what they're presenting as in disguise.

You're in the same territory of someone presenting something as fact that they believe is fact but turns out to be false. They register as telling the truth even though they were wrong. And the other characters can choose to believe them or not, they only know the character thinks that they spoke the truth to the extent of their current knowledge.
In this case the character believes they're A but they're actually B. So the character saying they're B would be a lie in the mind of the character and would register as a lie when perceived/ under truth spells. Because truth spells will only extract what that character believes to be the truth. XD

[Ganymede]

This leads to the amusing notion of a trans-gender character having to roll to impersonate their own biological gender if forced to dress like one. Which makes one ask: what does the result of a failed effort to disguise lead to? Biologically, they really are what they're presenting as in disguise.

I don't even know why you're making this distinction. Making sure bulges are in the right places is like a tiny sliver of the whole suite of behaviors and mannerisms involved in portraying a gender expression you're not used to portraying.

[Anonymouswizard]

This leads to the amusing notion of a trans-gender character having to roll to impersonate their own biological gender if forced to dress like one. Which makes one ask: what does the result of a failed effort to disguise lead to? Biologically, they really are what they're presenting as in disguise.

Knowing transgender people, yeah it can actually work that way. Think of it this way, it's DC10 and you're allowed to take 10 (to use 3.5 terminology), but you still have to make the effort to disguise yourself as your biological sex. Depending on circumstances the consequences of failing are normally 'people think there's something off about you, but can't put their finger on it' if it's not just a 'roll for fluff' thing.

[Naanomi]

Female Halflings disguised as male human children is a staple enough that 2e has a Kit for it

[Segev]

I don't even know why you're making this distinction. Making sure bulges are in the right places is like a tiny sliver of the whole suite of behaviors and mannerisms involved in portraying a gender expression you're not used to portraying.

I'm not sure why that is a...rebuttal? criticism?...of what I said. My question was one of what the person taking a read on the disguised trans-person would "get."

If it's a girl who thinks of herself as a girl disguising as a guy, obviously the person who sees through the disguise realizes she's a girl.

If it's a trans-girl (who just acts/dresses like a girl, no surgeries or magic or anything making physical changes) who is disguising as a guy, and somebody "sees through" the disguise, what do they conclude?

[Aussiehams]

It's unlikely to come up, but remember its probably only a visual ruse. Anything with blind sight, enhanced smell, telepathy etc. would probably not be fooled. They also probably wouldn't care, but its something to consider.

[Ganymede]

If it's a girl who thinks of herself as a girl disguising as a guy, obviously the person who sees through the disguise realizes she's a girl.

If it's a trans-girl (who just acts/dresses like a girl, no surgeries or magic or anything making physical changes) who is disguising as a guy, and somebody "sees through" the disguise, what do they conclude?

They are both the exact same situation and the astute onlooker will realize the exact same thing: the target is frontin' about being a guy.

[strangebloke]

Charisma (Deception) or use of a disguise kit (or improvised equivalent).
Alright, but how so?

Do they have to replace the 'disguise' every time they go out in public, or is it a once-a-week kind of thing.

There's a lot of intuitive solutions here that don't really end up working that cleanly, IMO.



In 5e terms? I might give you free advantage on it. Or double proficiency bonus.
It's telling how many books Pratchett wrote that he had time to lampoon this specific trope.

I like your solution to some extent. It makes sense to give advantage on a check to make yourself disguised as not being yourself (but also not being anyone specific) but then the question is, when do they make the check?

If they're doing this for story reasons take the secret identity background and reflavor for gender instead of race
https://dnd5e.fandom.com/wiki/Secret_Identity
Seems to assume you can hide as your one specific alter ego without problems


One of my players wanted to do this (female half elf bard that posed as a man, a la Orlando), and I just had her devote her PC's background feature to it.

After that, I didn't require any rolls or anything to maintain the ruse; background features generally trump certain roleplay/exploration challenges, after all.
This is an elegant solution, and I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it. Of course it works as a background feature! That's what those things are made for.

"Crossdressing Warrior" or "runaway bride" are practically entries that write themselves.

Though there is another question: What actions would be credible as breaking the alter ego. For example, if a party member is trying to keep this a secret from the party (as in my current campaign) would it be reasonable for someone else to find out if they administer the effects of a healing kit?

It only matters as much as the setting cares about it, and its lengths the cultural domain goes through to keep the distinction. Some settings are naturally ambivalent or already have a societal role for those who are (what our modern Western society now term) transgender. The point for this fun players are seeking would need a society where it DOES matter and it IS a challenge.

That then is entirely on you and your setting's cultural domain. Anything from Deception, Performance, Disguise Kit, or armors might work for your desired setting. Some gear may make things easier (Padded Armor, tabbards, and unisex pageboy haircut?), perhaps even a few co-conspirators (a few skilled and or unskilled servants) to attest and help out, could be means to enliven this ruse.

Talk to the player what sort of complexity and stakes they are interested in enduring, and then go have fun with it! :smallsmile:
Well, I mean, historical clothing was actually pretty gender-ambivalent unless you went more to the fancy side. A woman in medieval-style plate pretty much looks like a man in medieval-style plate. Of course, you could have specially designed clothing that accentuates feminity or masculinity in a certain way and therefore wouldn't be practical for someone of the added to wear, but... that's not a direction most are interested.

Both of the crossdressers in my games chose to pretend to be dirty street orphans, which made the disguise pretty easy to work. (Thou)

Then again, the more important question is: "what happen if the PC get found out? Are the consequences meaningful?"

If it doesn't matter if she is discovered to be a woman, then there is no check.

As 5e's ability checks happen when the chances of failure and success both exist (which is the case here) and that the consequences for failure are meaningful.

My earlier answer supposed there were meaningful consequences if the person attempting get found out, but honestly, as OP said unless the society a woman doing this is part of disapprove of fighting women, there should be no important consequences. Even if it's something like "hiding from her family", then it's more a question of pretending to be someone else than pretending to be another gender.

Well, sure. One of the PCs in question was keeping it a secret from the party, so there was a built-in consequence there, insofar as it affected the party dynamic. I know that the very idea that a PC would keep a secret from another PC is abhorrent to some, but this is how things are run in my game.

One of the societies that exists in my setting is extremely strong on the idea of gender roles, (its an actual patriarchy that's also polygamous) and it would matter there, but obviously in other environs it doesn't matter nearly so much.

[Laserlight]

Special Operations in the Age of Chivalry mentions an incident in which a besieged town's well was slightly outside the wall. A party of the attacking force disguised themselves as women and hid near the well; then at first light they made their way "back" from the well to the gate. Along the way, they met actual townswomen coming out to the well, and went up to the gate guard, but apparently the only oddity that was noticed was "My, you lot are already on your way back in? You must have gotten up early!" The disguisees overpowered the gate guard and let in the rest of the attacking force.

I'd say the chances of being detected vary somewhat with the type of campaign. You're a group of vigilantes who meet at the Black Rose Tavern every night before stalking the city streets to hunt down the cult of Bagdag Redmaw, and you disperse again before dawn? Probably fairly safe. If it's high summer and you're crossing rivers in a temperate forest? Sooner or later it's going to look odd that you never go swimming, or that you refuse to have anyone cover you when dangerous beasts are about and you need to step behind a bush for a couple of minutes.

I'd give the other PCs an Insight roll with various levels of success. "That's actually a chick pretending to be a dude" is one result, but you might have lesser successes be more like "Baby face" or "Beardless youth there might be too young for this business" or "That's a pretty boy, probably some decadent noble who never worked a day in his life".

[Unoriginal]

Do they have to replace the 'disguise' every time they go out in public, or is it a once-a-week kind of thing.

There's a lot of intuitive solutions here that don't really end up working that cleanly, IMO.

In general, the deception hold unless there is something that happens that make people doubt.

Otherwise, just give new people who meet the person a Wisdom (Insight) check against Charisma (Deception) if the new people are examining the person closely, or just auto-succeed if the person has a background feature for that


would it be reasonable for someone else to find out if they administer the effects of a healing kit.

Depends of where the healing kit is applied, how visible the person's characteristic they want to hide are, etc.


In my Waterdeep Dragon Heist game, one of my players has a Charlatan Drow who is pretending to be another kind of elf. She nearly got found out when the medic examined a wound somewhere she didn't cover with makeup to hide the skin color, but I'll rule she learned her lesson and ask the player if the PC will use integral makeup from now on.

[Anonymouswizard]

Alright, but how so?

Do they have to replace the 'disguise' every time they go out in public, or is it a once-a-week kind of thing.

There's a lot of intuitive solutions here that don't really end up working that cleanly, IMO.

Okay, from personal experience with long-term disguises I've seen:
-Every time you put on the disguise.
-You roll at the beginning of every scene/encounter where you're wearing a disguise.
-You roll once at the beginning of the day and only reroll if changing disguise or having to touch it up.
-You only roll a disguise check when somebody's trying to look past it.

All work, as long as you can keep the roll to about ten seconds. The problem comes from dealing with hiding your character's sex from the other players (the main reason why my trans PCs don't have to roll is that it would have given my first trans character's sex away to the rest of the party, and the GM asked if they could make it a surprise). Actually, on that note, Alter Self is a great way to actually change your gender, and one of my characters was trying to develop a higher level permenant version to deal with body dysmorphia.

[Naanomi]

Note that ‘You only roll a disguise check when somebody's trying to look past it‘ is the big benefit of the Assassin subclass disguise abilities; making it the default devalues those already marginal abilities

[Segev]

They are both the exact same situation and the astute onlooker will realize the exact same thing: the target is frontin' about being a guy.

They're definitely not the same.

To put a ridiculous level on it, if the biologically male trans-woman wants to disguise as a guy and chooses to do so by going shirtless and exposing the Adam's Apple, that would seem to be a perfectly valid way to "disguise" one's femininity by virtue of blatantly displaying a lack of female biological traits and a notable male one.

The biologically female woman would not have that option, but still could have an equally high Disguise skill.

If somebody sees through the second person's disguise, they might do so by noticing curves in the wrong place, or something wrong in how she carries herself, or (if suspicious anyway) by asking all men he's inspecting to take off their shirts. In any event, yes, "that's no man!" can be called out.

If somebody sees through the first person's disguise, they still see a bare-chested guy with a definite Adam's Apple; "that's no man!" is going to get you laughed at, and isn't something any rational person would say.

Ironically, my concern here is that it might be mechanically advantageous to be trans- if you're going to be making disguises of this sort. When I don't think trans-status should be a pro or a con to mechanics regarding disguising oneself.

[Ganymede]

stuff

...what?

No one cares about your game's weird focus on genitals, or the mechanical advantage you assign to them. Can you please take this nonsense to PM?