Duskblade vs. Magus

[BlueWitch]

Which class do you guys think is better?

Duskblade or Magus? And why?

I want to compare the two since they are so alike. But I notice Magus gets the bigger spell pool. But Duskblade's Quick Cast is nice.

What do you think?

[Ramza00]

Magus. Especially if you allow archetypes / extended splat compared to Duskblade which is only one book of choices.

[Palanan]

This comes up every now and then, and the general consensus seems to be that magus is better by a mile.

I've played both, and magus certainly feels like a smoother, lighter duskblade. It does more earlier and it has its own style, and it certainly seems to be more capable overall.

[Kurald Galain]

We're doing this again? :smallbiggrin:

Magus is hands-down much better than dusky.

The main issue with dusky is that his spell list is very short and does basically only one thing (i.e. single-target damage); whereas the Magus gets quite a nice selection of crowd control (e.g. glitterdust, black tentacles), defense (e.g. shield, displacement), mobility (pounce at level 4, at-will flight at level 5, and teleport pounce at level 10), area effects (e.g. slow, fireball), and utility (e.g. silent image, polymorph, mount). Magus also gets earlier access to higher level spells.

Aside from spells: with the arcane pool enchantment, the Magus matches the duskblade's to-hit bonus and base weapon damage (and this stacks with GMW, which is on his list).
And then he gets the action advantage of spell combat.
And then he gets numerous bonus feats and arcana, too.
And then he gets to quick-study any spell on his list as a swift action.
And then he gets archetypes...

...it's really no contest.

[DdarkED]

how hard would it be to port a magus into a 3.5 game? would you bother instead of using a duskblade?

[Hackulator]

Magus miles ahead of duskblade in almost every meaningful way from combat effectiveness to out of combat utility.

[lightningcat]

Having played both, the Magus wins.
But I believe there was a book that provide alternate class levels for elven Duskblades.

[Ramza00]

Having played both, the Magus wins.
But I believe there was a book that provide alternate class levels for elven Duskblades.

It was a free web article called Dead Levels II (will post in a second). They were trying to get rid of the concept of dead levels by minor free give aways that will not affect balance but the DM can reward their players so it feels like they are getting something every time they level up. This was not limited to just Duskblades but every class that had no class ability at specific dead levels.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x

I am posting the text since it is part of a free article.


Elven Insight (Ex): At 8th level, a duskblade better understands how elves think after having pursued their ancient racial profession to this point. A duskblade can use their Intelligence ability modifier (instead of Charisma) when making Diplomacy and Gather Information checks with elves or in elven communities. At 9th level, a duskblade gains a +1 bonus on these skill checks. These bonuses increase by +1 at 12th, 14th, 17th, and 19th level.

So for Diplomacy and Gather Information you get a +5 skill bonus only with elves and elven communities. But remember Diplomacy and Gathering Information are not class skills for a Duskblade. You also get to use Int instead of Cha for this check.

In other words you made Duskblade into a crappy rogue that is not even really good at this rogue skill / face. Remember a Duskblade doesn't have many of the other face skills and its skill points are still only 2+ per level.

[Kurald Galain]

how hard would it be to port a magus into a 3.5 game? would you bother instead of using a duskblade?

That would be entirely straightforward, and yes I would recommend that. A Magus is clearly not going to be overpowered by 3.5 standards.

[heavyfuel]

Also having played both (though, admittedly, without archetypes on the Magus) I'll go against the consensus here and say that the Duskblade is straight up better if what you want is a Melee combatant with spells.

Yes, the Magus is the better spellcaster, and since spells are really powerful, the Magus is overall stronger.

But if being good at spellcasting is what you want, you might as well be playing a Wizard.

Look at the Magus as melee combatant: Because of TWF, you are basically forced to take -2 to every attack on a 3/4 BAB class that can't at all focus on just Strength or just Dexterity for the added attack bonus. Spellcombat only makes matters worse. Sure there are ways to counteract this, but your attack bonus will never be super high, and high AC enemies will be your bane. Again, yes, you can resort to spells. But casting spells by themselves is not why you play a Magus.

Then for the Duskblade, you have a class that can go Reach weapon and Power Attack with Knowledge Devotion and Arcane Strike (two excellent feats that don't exist in PF) and outdamage pretty much anyone who isn't an Ubercharger in a party. Speaking of, you can totally play a Duskblade ubercharger. If your DM allows for "Extra Spell: Wraithstrike", then you're in DPR heaven.

The only thing that sucks about the Duskblade is levels 11 and 12. Where you already have 3 attacks but can't Arcane Channel through them. Levels 6~10 Arcane Channeling still has great appeal, despite making you lose one attack.

I have no idea how the Magus wil fare in a 3.PF game with access to 3.5 feats, but in a PF game, it was super underwhelming. I couldn't melee at all, and I was a worthless spellcaster compared to the group's Wizard and Cleric.

TL;DR: The Magus falls into this weird gap where they can't do anything too well, while the Duskblade can at least Melee well.

[Scots Dragon]

Look at the Magus as melee combatant: Because of TWF, you are basically forced to take -2 to every attack on a 3/4 BAB class that can't at all focus on just Strength or just Dexterity for the added attack bonus. Spellcombat only makes matters worse. Sure there are ways to counteract this, but your attack bonus will never be super high, and high AC enemies will be your bane. Again, yes, you can resort to spells. But casting spells by themselves is not why you play a Magus.

The TWF penalties only apply while performing spellcombat. Otherwise they can just use their one-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon (or use it two-handed for extra damage) without penalty or restriction.


That would be entirely straightforward, and yes I would recommend that. A Magus is clearly not going to be overpowered by 3.5 standards.

Pretty much the only changes necessary are back-porting the skill list to work with the D&D 3.5e skills, and mostly that just boils down to adding concentration.

[heavyfuel]

The TWF penalties only apply while performing spellcombat. Otherwise they can just use their one-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon (or use it two-handed for extra damage) without penalty or restriction.

Well, yeah. But then you're fighting with least optimal fighting style possible, dealing next to no damage, and ignoring the whole point of the class, which is casting while in melee.

This only reinforces my argument that the Magus is crap at what it's supposed to do. (not crap overall, just crap at melee)

[Albions_Angel]

So I have had several questions about the magus, and this thread seems like the place to get them answered.

So at first glance, Magus looks like a better Duskblade. Its gets Spellstrike/Arcane Channeling a level earlier, which is nice, and it has more spells and sooner. But...

There is never a way to get more than one Spellstrike per round, is there? Its just an extra attack at full bonus. Sure, thats nice at low levels, and flat out better than duskblade. Until level 13 that is, when duskblade becomes... really really powerful against single opponents. Or even multiple with cleave, combat reflexes, and a reach weapon.

And the 3/4 BAB seems to really cripple magus. Is there a way for him to make that up?

Am I just falling into the trap of seeing Magus as PF's Duskblade? Is Magus instead more like a battle sorcerer, with one feature of the duskblade? Granted, its the signature feature, and I wish duskblade got it earlier, but oh well, cant have everything.

Sorry for the rambling. Im ill.

[heavyfuel]

Is Magus instead more like a battle sorcerer, with one feature of the duskblade?

It's definitely like that. The magus is extremely reliant on spells. It's reliant to the point that melee is basically an afterthought.

Edit for math:

Think about it like this. If you go Strength route instead of Dex route, by the time you reach lv6 you're looking at 1d8 (weapon) + 4 (strength) + 1 (arcane strike) + 1 (magic weapon). That's an average of 10.5 damage IF YOU HIT.

That's just insignificant. You could be playing literally any other class and out DPR the magus in strict melee damage. If you're going for spells, any full caster is gonna be better as well

[Kurald Galain]

So at first glance, Magus looks like a better Duskblade. Its gets Spellstrike/Arcane Channeling a level earlier, which is nice, and it has more spells and sooner.
You are correct. The Magus is not a battle sorcerer; the Magus is a powerful melee warrior that can additionally cast a free spell every turn. Ultimately, action economy is what wins combats; and the Magus has some of the best action economy advantage in the game.

But you shouldn't see spell combat purely as DPR. The Magus can make a full attack in addition to casting a self-buff like Shield or Haste, or a crowd control spell, or of course Dimension Door. And it can do so every round.


There is never a way to get more than one Spellstrike per round, is there?
Yes, there is. Spells like Frostbite apply to each of your attacks. (edit) or any quickened attack spell will give the Magus an additional spellstrike.


Until level 13 that is, when duskblade becomes... really really powerful against single opponents.Bear in mind that most campaigns end well before level 13. By comparison, the Magus becomes really really powerful against single opponents about ten levels earlier.


And the 3/4 BAB seems to really cripple magus. Is there a way for him to make that up?
Yes, and that is the arcane pool ability that allows him to enchant his weapon as a swift action. This effectively makes you a full-BAB class with a damage bonus.

If your Magus is not one of the best melee fighters in your party, then you're not playing it well. Here's more info on that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus).

[Andreaz]

how hard would it be to port a magus into a 3.5 game? would you bother instead of using a duskblade?

Just play it as-is. The magus uses nothing that needs converting that isn't universal (like cmb instead of discretionary ability checks).

[Andreaz]

Yes, the Magus is the better spellcaster, and since spells are really powerful, the Magus is overall stronger.

But if being good at spellcasting is what you want, you might as well be playing a Wizard.

Look at the Magus as melee combatant: Because of TWF, you are basically forced to take -2 to every attack on a 3/4 BAB class that can't at all focus on just Strength or just Dexterity for the added attack bonus. Spellcombat only makes matters worse. Sure there are ways to counteract this, but your attack bonus will never be super high, and high AC enemies will be your bane. Again, yes, you can resort to spells. But casting spells by themselves is not why you play a Magus.



I feel separating casting from beating, and then comparing only the beating with the excuse of "for casting you don't play fighty" is a severe mistake.
If you just want beating, you play some tricked up barbarian or dungeoncrasher. If you just want casting, you play a full caster.

Both Duskblade and Magus fill precisely the same niche, and thus they must be measured within that niche - mixing martial combat with spellcasting.


"Duskblade can at least melee when he runs out of spells"
1) Magus has more spells to run out of. And will at least always have cantrips.
2) Magus has buffs other than spells that make him pseudo full bab with extra damage
3) Magus can recover spells mid-fight

So, generally, the magus is a better caster, a better fighter-caster AND the duskblade is reduced to a small beatstick much, much before the magus is reduced to a smaller beatstick. To the point odds are the duskblade will simply die first.

[BlueWitch]

Doesn't Duskblade get 'Touch of Idiocy?'
Does Magus have it too? I'm not familiar enough and not 100% with what I've seen online.

But doing that with a Quick Cast can really turn the tables.

[Kurald Galain]

But doing that with a Quick Cast can really turn the tables.
What you're missing is that dusky can "quick cast" once or twice per day, whereas Magus can "quick cast" every single round by using spell combat.

[Scots Dragon]

Doesn't Duskblade get 'Touch of Idiocy?'
Does Magus have it too? I'm not familiar enough and not 100% with what I've seen online.

But doing that with a Quick Cast can really turn the tables.

The magus can add two wizard spells of every spell level to their spell list at 19th level. That includes touch of idiocy.

[Kurald Galain]

The magus can add two wizard spells of every spell level to their spell list at 19th level. That includes touch of idiocy.

Or at level 3 with Spell Blending, or at level 1 with the Mindblade archetype. Or, you know, cast one of the several better debuff spells that are already on his list :smallamused:

[Scots Dragon]

Or at level 3 with Spell Blending, or at level 1 with the Mindblade archetype. Or, you know, cast one of the several better debuff spells that are already on his list :smallamused:

I have to admit, I haven't looked too close at the magus in detail yet since I tend towards full-casters.

[BlueWitch]

What you're missing is that dusky can "quick cast" once or twice per day, whereas Magus can "quick cast" every single round by using spell combat.

damn, they really do have more advantages!

[heavyfuel]

the Magus is a powerful melee warrior

Honest question. How much damage that doesn't rely on spells are you expected to do deal with magus by, say, level 10? If it's anywhere close to what a Barbarian or Paladin is dealing I'd be really surprised


"Duskblade can at least melee when he runs out of spells"

"Duskblade can at least melee when he runs out of spells" is something I never said. Don't put words in my mouth.

The Duskblade is absolutely reliant in spells to melee. But they have more melee uses for them. That's all I said. Between Arcane Strike, Arcane Chanelling, and Wraithstrike (assuming it's allowed), you'll burn through slots rather quickly (though personally I never had a problem with their spells/day) but you'll absolutely demolish a Magus in melee DPR.

The Magus has much more utility, I never denied this. But if you're looking for utility with sub par melee DPR, why are you playing a Gish? If you want utility and for all of your damage to come from the spells you can cast, you should be playing a Sorcerer or a Wizard or a Druid. The melee part of a Magus' DPR is so low it's not even worth considering.

The Duskblade is better at his niche, which is different to say it's better overall.


The magus can add two wizard spells of every spell level to their spell list at 19th level. That includes touch of idiocy.

Too bad Touch of Idiocy was harshly nerfed in PF. In 3.5 it's insta-kill vs Animals and a bunch of Magical Beasts.

[Selion]

Honest question. How much damage that doesn't rely on spells are you expected to do deal with magus by, say, level 10? If it's anywhere close to what a Barbarian or Paladin is dealing I'd be really surprised


Why shouldn't we include spells on magus damage? During a full attack spell casting is free for a magus and gives him even another weapon attack at full bab. At level 10 a magus without equipment has 6 1st level slots, 5 2nd level slots , 3 third level slots and 1 4th level slot, if you don't consider this damage, you shouldn't consider rage for a barbarian.
By the way, why don't you post a barbarian 10th level build, so we can compare damage per round exactly.

[BlueWitch]

I did a bit more research and seems Duskblade's gain access to some 8th Level Wiz/Sorc Spells near the end. But they treat them as their 5th levels. Still, its not too bad. Polar Ray, Hold Monster, Bigby's Clenched Fist and Disintegrate are on there.

I think overall as a whole, the Magus has better utility. That seems to be a given, but the Duskblade isn't weak, just more combat savvy. Full BAB is nice, but True Strike sort of makes it moot anyway.

If the two were to fight, regardless of the winner, the other will put up a fight.

EDIT: Changed the list xD Both get Chain Lightning

[Selion]

I did a bit more research and seems Duskblade's gain access to some 8th Level Wiz/Sorc Spells near the end. But they treat them as their 5th levels. Still, its not too bad. Polar Ray, Chain Lightning, and Disintegrate are on there.

I think overall as a whole, the Magus has better utility. That seems to be a given, but the Duskblade isn't weak, just more combat savvy. Full BAB is nice, but True Strike sort of makes it moot anyway.

If the two were to fight, regardless of the winner, the other will put up a fight.

At high levels whoever can cast a higher level spell has the upper end, no discussion about that, arcane spellcasting is brutal. By the way, magus can emulate e few high level spells with magus arcana, for example a magus can cast a quickened disintegration once a day, or a maximized cosmic ray (up to 120 damage without save), or even reflect spells using an immediate action (which is arguably better than spell turning, a 7th level spell)

[heavyfuel]

Why shouldn't we include spells on magus damage?

Because - for like the 4th time - if you're getting damage from spells and dealing 1d8+4 damage with your weapon, you might as well play a Sorcerer or an Evoker Wizard or a Psion.

The appeal of Gishes are dealing respectable damage with regular attacks in addition to having spells. Not just having high DPR with spells.

[Selion]

Because - for like the 4th time - if you're getting damage from spells and dealing 1d8+4 damage with your weapon, you might as well play a Sorcerer or an Evoker Wizard or a Psion.

The appeal of Gishes are dealing respectable damage with regular attacks in addition to having spells. Not just having high DPR with spells.

Then you cannot compare only weapon damage to a barbarian if you think half of a magus damage should come from weapons.
By the way, let's do a little calculation to see if what you say is true. I'm not a omptimization geek, so my build could not be top notch.

human (20 points buy)
str 8
dex 18 raised to 20 at level 10, 22 with enchantment bonus (automatic bonus progression)
cos 14
wis 9
int 16
cha 8
feats: weapon finesse, dervish dance, improved initiative, spell penetration, thoughness, intensified spell
Traits: +2 concentration (i don't remember the name), magical lineage
Arcana: arcane accuracy, empowered magic, spell shield
Bab + 7/+2
Weapon: scimitar +2 (automatic bonus progression)
full attack is buffed with intensified shocking grasp and a +2 keen enchantment from arcana pool:



Weapon damage: +15/+15/+10 (1d6+10) average damage 13.5

Spell damage: 10d6 (intensified shocking grasp, surprisingly at level 10 is the most damaging spell to be used with spell strike, and it is level 1)

A CR 10 monster has an average AC of 24 and an average SR of 21

Average weapon damage: 2* 12/20*(13.5 + 0.25*13.5) + 7/20 *(13.5+ 0.25*13.5)= 26.15
Average spell damage: 0.896* 12/20 *(3.5*10 + 0.25*3.5*10)= 23.52
(0.896 is the probability that at least one of the melee attacks is successful , 12/20 is the probability to overcome spell resistance)
Average damage (total)= 49.67
% of weapon damage = 52% (it would be higher if under haste effect)
% of spell damage = 48% (it would be higher if empowered magic is used, but it's once per day)

[ExLibrisMortis]

A 3.5 barbarian 10 will do a Shock Trooper Pounce at +20/+20/+15, for 2d6+34 damage per hit (average 41)--more with haste, of course. But a side-by-side comparison of melee damage isn't going to tell us much about melee performance in a real fight, because we're looking at "enough" damage in both cases. At some point, the ability to overcome a flying invisible enemy is more important than the ability to deal another forty damage.


As an aside (and this is only a half-serious point, mind you!), I think a "true" gish should get all of their damage from mundane weapons. Channeling is for suckers, Persistomancy is the way!

[Andreaz]

The appeal of Gishes are dealing respectable damage with regular attacks in addition to having spells. Not just having high DPR with spells.The appeal of gishes is being a veritable fighter via mixing spells and attacks.

[Psyren]

Because - for like the 4th time - if you're getting damage from spells and dealing 1d8+4 damage with your weapon, you might as well play a Sorcerer or an Evoker Wizard or a Psion.

"Magus isn't as good as a T2/T1 class" is a pretty banal statement. Yeah if I wanted to play one of those I wouldn't pick Magus, but I wouldn't pick Duskblade or Barbarian either, so what's your point?



The appeal of Gishes are dealing respectable damage with regular attacks in addition to having spells. Not just having high DPR with spells.

Magus' martial abilities go far beyond just blasting; you can use their magic to pounce, fly, teleport, enhance yourself, enhance your weapon, debuff your opponent, fight in melee, fight in range, craft your own gear and a bunch of other things. And that's before we get to all the utility, like having a familiar or picking up goodies from the wizard list. The arcane pool also gives them a number of magical abilities that aren't dependent on their spellcasting at all, and these too contain a mix of offense, defense, and utility items.

[Kurald Galain]

If it's anywhere close to what a Barbarian or Paladin is dealing I'd be really surprised
That's a fair question. And the catch is that the Magus has several damage-boosting class features, most notably his ability to enchant his weapon at-need. And he gets bonus feats.


A 3.5 barbarian 10 will do a Shock Trooper Pounce at +20/+20/+15, for 2d6+34 damage per hit (average 41)--more with haste, of course
Let's take this as the baseline. For comparison, a level-10 Magus would do a Bladed Dash Pounce at +26/+21/+16, for 1d10+4d6+22 damage per hit (average 41). Or, for more fun, he'd do a Dimension Door Pounce at +21/+21/+16 from a distance of 800'.

To hit bonus is +7 (BAB) -2 (spell combat) +7 (str) +3 (magic weapon) +5 (arcane accuracy) +1 (weapon focus) +5 (bladed dash on first hit only) = +26.
Damage is 1d10 (weapon) +3d6 (arcane pool) +7 (str) +3 (magic wpn) +1d6+10 (frostbite) +2 (weapon spec) = 41 damage per hit.

Again, more with haste, and the Magus can haste himself as a swift action. Or just cast Haste, it's on his list (and he can full attack in the same round as casting it). So yeah, Magus is going to do pretty well in the DPR department.

[ExLibrisMortis]

To hit bonus is +7 (BAB) -2 (spell combat) +7 (str) +3 (magic weapon) +5 (arcane accuracy) +1 (weapon focus) +5 (bladed dash on first hit only) = +26.
Damage is 1d10 (weapon) +3d6 (arcane pool) +7 (str) +3 (magic wpn) +1d6+10 (frostbite) +2 (weapon spec) = 41 damage per hit.
Note that the barbarian was using the automatic bonus progression that Selion was using, resulting in a +2 weapon and 26 Strength raging (compared to the magus' 22 Dexterity), against your +3 weapon and 24 Strength. Just to make sure nobody's confused when they read this back later--the difference isn't great enough to change the point.

[Selion]

Furthermore my example didn't require a round to buff, instead the pouncing magus would have had to buff her weapon and to cast frostbite previously, which is, by the way, a fine tactic in a prolonged fight, maybe better used with haste instead of frostbite

[Raxxius]

So, duskblades sit nicely with two handers, reach and strength builds.

Magus is more versatile and benefits from having the duskblade as a template to build a more enjoyable class from.

I don't feel the duskblade is inherently weaker than the magus, it's got massive damage and the high bab only helps. Just it has less options.

[The_Snark]

There is never a way to get more than one Spellstrike per round, is there? Its just an extra attack at full bonus. Sure, thats nice at low levels, and flat out better than duskblade. Until level 13 that is, when duskblade becomes... really really powerful against single opponents. Or even multiple with cleave, combat reflexes, and a reach weapon.

There's some dispute over how effective the level 13 ability is against single enemies, actually. The ability states that "each enemy you hit in melee is affected by the spell", which can be read to mean that you only affect the enemy once no matter how many times you hit it. It's still an improvement even with this interpretation, because you don't have to choose between making a full attack or arcane channeling, and if there are multiple enemies you can spread attacks out to get extra mileage out of your touch spells.

I have no idea if this is how the ability is supposed to be interpreted, mind you; opinions seem pretty evenly split from what I've read, and the wording doesn't seem terribly clear either way. Just pointing it out as a possible factor, and something to check with your DM if you plan on playing a duskblade - you don't want to get surprised at level 13 if it turns out your DM feels differently than you.

[heavyfuel]

"Magus isn't as good as a T2/T1 class" is a pretty banal statement.

Normally I'd agree with you, but my argument here is that since the vast majority of the Magus' damage comes from spells you're getting close to nothing for playing a Gish. Yeah, you get to wear armor and your HD is a d8 instead of a d6, but that's pretty much the only good thing about it.

[Kurald Galain]

Normally I'd agree with you, but my argument here is that since the vast majority of the Magus' damage comes from spells you're getting close to nothing for playing a Gish.
It looks like you have a rather unusual definition of 'gish' here.

Anyway what you get out of it is (1) a big action economy advantage, as you can cast any spell AND full attack in the same turn; (2) attack spells critting on a 15+ (and auto-confirming, with the right build); and (3) the above examples show that actually 67.4% of your damage comes from class features, not spells.

[Selion]

Normally I'd agree with you, but my argument here is that since the vast majority of the Magus' damage comes from spells you're getting close to nothing for playing a Gish. Yeah, you get to wear armor and your HD is a d8 instead of a d6, but that's pretty much the only good thing about it.

I've already proven that about half of a full attack comes from weapon damage and half comes from spells, this percentage is consistent even at higher levels, if we exclude that once per day instance in which a maximized cosmic ray deals 120 damage.
Even if we take in account save or die spells, such as baleful polymorph, a magus is less likely to affect her foes with them, because he takes these spells later and doesn't invest in her primary casting ability like a wizard would do, but a magus can couple these spells with a full attack. It doesn't feel like a wizard to me, neither a fighter, it's just a mix.

[Snowbluff]

That would be entirely straightforward, and yes I would recommend that. A Magus is clearly not going to be overpowered by 3.5 standards.

Yes and no. It's not "OP SIMULACRUM CHAIN GATING SHAPECHANGE BBQ," but I find that PF classes then to add a bunch of numbers bloat. My memory of Magus is iffy, but straight +x to attacks and the like should be looked at.

[Psyren]

Normally I'd agree with you, but my argument here is that since the vast majority of the Magus' damage comes from spells you're getting close to nothing for playing a Gish. Yeah, you get to wear armor and your HD is a d8 instead of a d6, but that's pretty much the only good thing about it.

To be blunt, this is utter nonsense. Pounce, flight, teleportation, battlefield control, all without affecting your martial action economy means you're not a gish? If Magus didn't have a single blasting spell on its list it would still be better at gishing than a Duskblade.

[Ramza00]

Why shouldn't we include spells on magus damage? During a full attack spell casting is free for a magus and gives him even another weapon attack at full bab. At level 10 a magus without equipment has 6 1st level slots, 5 2nd level slots , 3 third level slots and 1 4th level slot, if you don't consider this damage, you shouldn't consider rage for a barbarian.
By the way, why don't you post a barbarian 10th level build, so we can compare damage per round exactly.

Nods at what Selion said.

Magus has twopounce-like-spells that work well with spell combat.

Bladed Dash (Magus 2), you move 30 ft and get an extra "free" attack in this 30 feet with a circumstance attack bonus equal to your Int or Cha modifier. So use Bladed Dash+Spell Combat to set up the full attack that you will follow up with after the 30 feet of movement.
Force Hook Charge (Magus 3) is a hook-shot zelda like effect with range of close (so 50 feet at CL 10, 25+5*10/2.) You do not get the extra attack that Bladed Dash does, and you provoke Attack of Opportunities unlike Bladed Dash which does not provoke. You do though do force damage equal to your caster level at the target or object, so that is 10 force damage at CL 10

These two spells allow you to do pounce like effects much like a barbarian does, and you have other class abilities that can create a pile of damage (Kurald Galain has a great breakdown.)

-----

The beauty of a Magus is while he is a "stinky" level 6 caster instead of a level 9 caster, he gets an effectively free "schism" like effect with spell combat and spell strike, and thus he is actually not bad at doing both spellcasting and melee (or ranged with other archetypes.) It is a good form of gish that feels different than a eldritch knight / abjurant champion dish, but it is also more versatile than the duskblade which is a form of barbarian that gets its damage from spells instead of strength, rage, and power attack optimization.

Yes there are a couple of minor scenarios where a duskblade can do more damage than a magus, but the thing is magus has enough offensive power to drop most enemies yet has far more versatility with mobility, crowd control, buffing, non-offensive spells, etc compared to a duskblade.

[Raxxius]

Nods at what Selion said.

Magus has twopounce-like-spells that work well with spell combat.

Bladed Dash (Magus 2), you move 30 ft and get an extra "free" attack in this 30 feet with a circumstance attack bonus equal to your Int or Cha modifier. So use Bladed Dash+Spell Combat to set up the full attack that you will follow up with after the 30 feet of movement.
Force Hook Charge (Magus 3) is a hook-shot zelda like effect with range of close (so 50 feet at CL 10, 25+5*10/2.) You do not get the extra attack that Bladed Dash does, and you provoke Attack of Opportunities unlike Bladed Dash which does not provoke. You do though do force damage equal to your caster level at the target or object, so that is 10 force damage at CL 10

These two spells allow you to do pounce like effects much like a barbarian does, and you have other class abilities that can create a pile of damage (Kurald Galain has a great breakdown.)

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The beauty of a Magus is while he is a "stinky" level 6 caster instead of a level 9 caster, he gets an effectively free "schism" like effect with spell combat and spell strike, and thus he is actually not bad at doing both spellcasting and melee (or ranged with other archetypes.) It is a good form of gish that feels different than a eldritch knight / abjurant champion dish, but it is also more versatile than the duskblade which is a form of barbarian that gets its damage from spells instead of strength, rage, and power attack optimization.

Yes there are a couple of minor scenarios where a duskblade can do more damage than a magus, but the thing is magus has enough offensive power to drop most enemies yet has far more versatility with mobility, crowd control, buffing, non-offensive spells, etc compared to a duskblade.


The counter is that the duskblade gets a better choice of weapons, wonky spell progression with some very strong downscaled spells, faster access to itteratives and better Bab which can power power attack better than the magus can.

The duskblade doesn't lack for smackdown. But it is worse at everything else.