[PF] Is it possible to get Triple 9's in Pathfinder [PF]

[Azoth]

For those unfamiliar with the concept, a Triple 9's build is one that reaches some combination of any three of the following: 9th level Arcane Spells, 9th level Divine Spells, 9th level Martial Manuevers (Pow/PoW:E), or 9th level Psionic Powers.

I know there were a number of ways to do this in 3.5, but have not seen any builds posted or theorized that could accomplish the same in PF. I am wondering if it is possible with the absence of accelerated casting classes (Ur Priest, Beholder Mage), means to inflate Initiator Level (Bloodlines), or the poorly written Powers Known section of the 3.5 Wilder.

So Playground, can we create the monstrosity known as a Triple 9's build?

[exelsisxax]

No. To my knowledge, you can just barely get a theurge or cerebremancer to double 9s. Initiators and divine manifesters can't hope to get anywhere near having double. This is, of course, only a good thing.

[Selion]

No. To my knowledge, you can just barely get a theurge or cerebremancer to double 9s. Initiators and divine manifesters can't hope to get anywhere near having double. This is, of course, only a good thing.

How do you get a theurge to double 9s?
To my knowledge the best i can try is this thing:
1 levels wizard (magical knack +2 CL on wizard)
3 level cleric
10 levels mystic theurge
4 levels wizard
3 levels cleric

Arcane CL 17
Divine CL 16
6th level martial maneuvres burning 6 feats

Unless you can extend mystic theurge over level 10, which i think would require DM approval, i'm not even sure that magical knack works this way

[Azoth]

How do you get a theurge to double 9s?
To my knowledge the best i can try is this thing:
1 levels wizard (magical knack +2 CL on wizard)
3 level cleric
10 levels mystic theurge
4 levels wizard
3 levels cleric

Arcane CL 17
Divine CL 16
6th level martial maneuvres burning 6 feats

Unless you can extend mystic theurge over level 10, which i think would require DM approval, i'm not even sure that magical knack works this way

The Mage Guild rules in Inner Sea Magic can let you recover 3 levels of casting in one class and 1 in a second.

You can also use Prestigious Spellcaster and Favored Prestige Class to regain one level of Spellcasting progression.

So you can on the low op end go Cleric3/Wizard3/MysticTheurge10/Cleric+1/Wizard+3, and use the Mage Guild to regain 3 levels of Cleric Casting and 1 level of Wizard Casting to hit 17/17 and dual 9ths. There are more complicated builds that are stronger, but that is the simplest.



No. To my knowledge, you can just barely get a theurge or cerebremancer to double 9s. Initiators and divine manifesters can't hope to get anywhere near having double. This is, of course, only a good thing.

Cleric9/any initiator 1/Battle Templar 10. Casts as Cleric 17 and with Focused Initiator trait has an IL of 17 gaining a single 9th level Manuever at 20.

Wizard9/any intiator1/Blade Caster 10. Same as the above.

Psion9/any intiator1/Awakened Blade10. Same as the above.

So Initiator + 9th level spells/powers is easy and doesn't really require much finesse.

[exelsisxax]

Cleric9/any initiator 1/Battle Templar 10. Casts as Cleric 17 and with Focused Initiator trait has an IL of 17 gaining a single 9th level Manuever at 20.

Wizard9/any intiator1/Blade Caster 10. Same as the above.

Psion9/any intiator1/Awakened Blade10. Same as the above.

So Initiator + 9th level spells/powers is easy and doesn't really require much finesse.

You're right, I thought the entry requirements were more stringent but they're mostly level 1 maneuver entry only so you don't have to sacrifice any more casting levels.

So I guess you can get double of most things, except divine/manifesting because there is no dual progression PrC.

[Azoth]

My latest attempt at Triple 9 that falls a little short.

*Note: It uses the mage guild rules, Prestigious Spellcaster, and the debated early entry trick for Mystic Theurge.

Early entry trick is using Equipment Trick Sunrod Like the Sun to treat spells with the Light descriptor as 1 level higher to meet the "second level spells" requirement.*

Cleric1/Wizard1/Medic1/MysticTheurge10/Battle Templar 3/Bladecaster 4.

Cleric loses 5 levels of progression

Wizard loses 6 levels of progression

Medic IL is 14.

Mage Guild to regain 3 levels of Wizard Casting and 1 level of Ceric Casting.

Cleric loses 4 levels of progression.

Wizard loses 3 levels of progression.

Medic IL is 14.

Take Favored Prestige Class (Battle Templar) and Prestigious Spellcaster to regain 1 level of Cleric Progression. Take Focused Initiator (Medic) for +2 IL.

The final numbers are:

Cleric loses 3 levels of progression, so casts as Cleric 17 (9th level spells).

Wizard loses 3 levels of progression, so casts as Wizard 17 (9th level spells).

Medic Initiator level of 16, so can use 8th level manuevers.

As you can see, I fall 1 Initiator level shy of Triple 9. I was hoping someone found a better method or could shore up that one shortcoming.

[exelsisxax]

Even if we pretend that the sunrod thing would fly, this doesn't add up. Your initial estimate of your cleric level is wrong: you'd be only CL 13 at level 20, not CL 15. 1 from cleric, 10 from theurge, 2 from templar.

Additionally, eclectic training et al do not, as far as i'm aware, provide actual spellcasting class level equivalents. They increase your caster level, with additional language providing more spell slots and known, which does not permit a caster to learn higher level spells.

[Azoth]

You are right about my Cleric calculation. I really shouldn't do builds when sleep deprived.

So that build would end with 8th Divine, 8th manuevers, and 9th Arcane. Not too terrible an attempt.

They expressly increase caster level, spell slots, and spells known.

[noob]

Go level 20 in the full casting occult class then become an ai into a level 20 wizard robot then you and that robot becomes an ai into a level 20 cleric robot and you have 3 sources of ninth level spells.
all constructs are possible to make into robots according to the rules so making the appropriate robots is possible.

[ElFi]

Go level 20 in the full casting occult class then become an ai into a level 20 wizard robot then you and that robot becomes an ai into a level 20 cleric robot and you have 3 sources of ninth level spells.
all constructs are possible to make into robots according to the rules so making the appropriate robots is possible.

Humorously enough, the option I assume you're talking about (the Artificial Ascension psi-tech discovery) is actually impossible to obtain by RAW. You need to spend either a phrenic amplification or a feat at 20th level to learn it, and a psychic gains neither at 20th level. Yeah, the game designers really didn't think that through very well. Maybe if you had access to the bonus feats from mythic tiers, but that's already outside of the scope of a regular game.

Otherwise, I think that plan works? I'm not 100% versed on the leveling capacity of constructs; never read the technology guide or its permutations in-depth.

[noob]

Humorously enough, the option I assume you're talking about (the Artificial Ascension psi-tech discovery) is actually impossible to obtain by RAW. You need to spend either a phrenic amplification or a feat at 20th level to learn it, and a psychic gains neither at 20th level. Yeah, the game designers really didn't think that through very well. Maybe if you had access to the bonus feats from mythic tiers, but that's already outside of the scope of a regular game.

Otherwise, I think that plan works? I'm not 100% versed on the leveling capacity of constructs; never read the technology guide or its permutations in-depth.

You do not level a construct: you directly create a robotic trompe l'oeuil or a robotic alter ego of a level 20 character because any construct can be made as a robot.(written in the robot sub type)
Also the discovery says you must be level 20 but does not specify you have to be a level 20 psychic.
So take 2 levels in a random class before you hit level 18 in psychic(go up to level 17 in psychic for ninth level spells as fast as possible then take 2 levels in any class(for example bard because bards are cool) then take the last level as a psychic)

[Elisianthus]

Humorously enough, the option I assume you're talking about (the Artificial Ascension psi-tech discovery) is actually impossible to obtain by RAW. You need to spend either a phrenic amplification or a feat at 20th level to learn it, and a psychic gains neither at 20th level.

The best way I've found that works RAW is to be a Half-Elf. Their Racial FCB for Psychics is 1/6th of an Amplification, so you just need to time it so you get a multiple of six Alt FCB on 20.

[noob]

The best way I've found that works RAW is to be a Half-Elf. Their Racial FCB for Psychics is 1/6th of an Amplification, so you just need to time it so you get a multiple of six Alt FCB on 20.

or what I said about how it did not specify you had to be a level 20 psychic: it only specified you needed 20 levels(so if you hit level 18 psychic at level 20 you can pick it)

[Elisianthus]

or what I said about how it did not specify you had to be a level 20 psychic: it only specified you needed 20 levels(so if you hit level 18 psychic at level 20 you can pick it)

I was pretty sure that for all class features it was implied to be "class level" unless it specified "Character level" or "hit dice".


Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character’s level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.

I understand specific trumps general though, so I'd be happy to be proven wrong. As it is though I reckon it's badly worded and therefore ambiguous?

[Peat]

Even if we pretend that the sunrod thing would fly, this doesn't add up. Your initial estimate of your cleric level is wrong: you'd be only CL 13 at level 20, not CL 15. 1 from cleric, 10 from theurge, 2 from templar.

Additionally, eclectic training et al do not, as far as i'm aware, provide actual spellcasting class level equivalents. They increase your caster level, with additional language providing more spell slots and known, which does not permit a caster to learn higher level spells.

They do, as written, give higher level spells. The most ecent (indeed, only) thing I saw on that from a developer was that wasn't what was intended, but it was what was written, and they'd be curious as to what'd happen if someone did go with what was written.

[Slithery D]

They do, as written, give higher level spells. The most ecent (indeed, only) thing I saw on that from a developer was that wasn't what was intended, but it was what was written, and they'd be curious as to what'd happen if someone did go with what was written.

Yeah, it's very clear.


Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches 5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.

* * *

Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second
spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.