What makes the Ur Priest good?

[StevenC21]

I was reading the tier lists for Prestige Classes, and apparently the Ur Priest is a very good Prestige Class. I don't see why.

I understand that they get rapid progression up to 9th level spells... but not very many spells overall, and if you take Ur Priest, you're more or less gimping your main caster class. If you take it as a caster, you basically end up with worse casting. If you take it as a martial character, you get screwed because then your martial skills are severely underdeveloped in terms of abilities or feats.

What makes this class good in any way?!

[Tvtyrant]

I was reading the tier lists for Prestige Classes, and apparently the Ur Priest is a very good Prestige Class. I don't see why.

I understand that they get rapid progression up to 9th level spells... but not very many spells overall, and if you take Ur Priest, you're more or less gimping your main caster class. If you take it as a caster, you basically end up with worse casting. If you take it as a martial character, you get screwed because then your martial skills are severely underdeveloped in terms of abilities or feats.

What makes this class good in any way?!

There are lots of dual-progression prestige classes which are normally bad or moderate but extremely powerful with Ur-Priest. It allows you to meet the requirements for it and a dual-prog early, take one level in it and then get things like double 9s, or 9th level spells and manuevers/powers/binds/etc.

Basically the prestige class system in 3.5 is open to being gamed, and it does one of the best jobs.

[flappeercraft]

I was reading the tier lists for Prestige Classes, and apparently the Ur Priest is a very good Prestige Class. I don't see why.

I understand that they get rapid progression up to 9th level spells... but not very many spells overall, and if you take Ur Priest, you're more or less gimping your main caster class. If you take it as a caster, you basically end up with worse casting. If you take it as a martial character, you get screwed because then your martial skills are severely underdeveloped in terms of abilities or feats.

What makes this class good in any way?!

First of all they can get 9ths at level 14, 3 levels before any cleric. Ever used miracle at that level? It gets insane if you try.

Plus, you actually get class features which clerics don’t get.

Now add that its fast progression allows it to go extremely well with Mystic Theurge builds and you have a beast of a PrC. Its a false statement to say it gimps your casting, thats only if you were a dovine caster before. Make a Wizard 10/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 9 and you cast spells like a 19th wizard and a 10th Ur-Priest. Easy double ninths which you can access even at level 18 if you want with minimal effort and only one level behind your average prepared caster.

Another thing is that your martial skills won’t go that awry tbh. You can still get something like Warblade 10/Ur-Priest 10 and have IL 15 for 8th level maneuvers, good hit dice as Ur-Priest has d8 which isn’t that squishy and your 3 lost BAB are easily recoverable via Divine Power or similar.

[Troacctid]

If you take it as a caster, you basically end up with worse casting.
Do you, though? You're two levels late to 4th level spells and one level late to 5th level spells, but after that you're on time for 6ths and early for 7ths, 8ths, and 9ths. You also have twice as many spell slots and full access to the cleric list, and you still end up getting 9th level spells in your original class too.


If you take it as a martial character, you get screwed because then your martial skills are severely underdeveloped in terms of abilities or feats.
How so? Ur-priest has the same combat chassis as a monk.

[StevenC21]

Make a Wizard 10/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 9

Not possible. Mystic Theurge requires the ability to cast 2nd level divine spells, which the Ur Priest does not get at level one. At absolute minimum, you need a two level dip into Ur Priest, which is still good, but not as good, as your arcane casting gets hurt more. Heck, you miss out on a whole 9th level slot just because of that extra Ur Priest level needed.

This build does not seem viable to me.

I do not want to sound rude.

[Crake]

First of all they can get 9ths at level 14, 3 levels before any cleric. Ever used miracle at that level? It gets insane if you try.

Arguably, using miracle as an ur-priest is a very bad idea. Since, y'know, you're stealing those spells from the cleric that they're meant for. When you cast miracle and petition a god for it's effect (since miracle is explicitly a direct request from your deity), it'll look down and see you casting the spell and be like "yeah, nah, you're not my follower".


Not possible. Mystic Theurge requires the ability to cast 2nd level divine spells, which the Ur Priest does not get at level one. At absolute minimum, you need a two level dip into Ur Priest, which is still good, but not as good, as your arcane casting gets hurt more. Heck, you miss out on a whole 9th level slot just because of that extra Ur Priest level needed.

This build does not seem viable to me.

I do not want to sound rude.

Just pick up sanctum spell, snowcasting, or heighten spell and earth casting spell, any of those will increase the level of your 1st level ur-priest spells to level 2, letting you qualify at level 1.

[StevenC21]

Heighten spell won't work, since it still costs a slot of the appropriate level... which you won't have...

[Crake]

Heighten spell won't work, since it still costs a slot of the appropriate level... which you won't have...

earth casting spell lets heighten increase by 1 extra level, so when you heighten an orison into a 1st level slot, it's cast as a 2nd level spell.

But, as an aside, without using ur-priest, you'd need 3 levels of cleric, and ontop of that, you'd hit a problem when you get to wizard 3/cleric 3/mystic theurge 10, and you have 4 more levels before you hit 20, with no more full casting dual progression arcane/divine, so you'd have to progress either one to 9th level and leave the other at 7th level, or progress both to 8th level and end up without dual 9s.

[flappeercraft]

Heighten spell won't work, since it still costs a slot of the appropriate level... which you won't have...

There are so many options, off the top of my head these are the following that I have come up with in literally slightly over 2 minutes.
1. Sanctum Spell
2. Alternative Source Spell
3. Southern Magician
4. Illumian + Heighten
5. DMM Heighten
6. Earth Spell + Heighten (Used on cantrips)
7. Easy Metamagic + Heighten (Used on cantrips)
8. Mad Faith feat

[Maat Mons]

Would it be fair to say that the allure of dual 9s is the broad range of your spell access? If so, how many spells are there on the Wizard spell list that are not available to archivists?

[Crake]

5. DMM Heighten
7. Easy Metamagic + Heighten (Used on cantrips)

These two arguably wouldn't work. Heighten doesn't actually have a spell slot adjustment, it affects the spell based on the spell slot. Note you could always prepare lower level spells into higher level spell slots, heighten simply makes that do something, so easy metamagic won't do anything, since it has no spell slot adjustment, and DMM likewise wouldn't do anything for the same reason, it's affected by the slot it's cast from.


Would it be fair to say that the allure of dual 9s is the broad range of your spell access? If so, how many spells are there on the Wizard spell list that are not available to archivists?

I mean, if you want broad range of spell access, doing extra spell slot leapfroggery with chameleon would actully be your best bet. Dual 9s by level 12, with access to literally every spell in existence. Extra bonus if you grabbed a level of eidetic wizard before chameleon so your spellbook is actually in your head, so you have access to every spell in existence just pulled out of nowhere.

[flappeercraft]

These two arguably wouldn't work. Heighten doesn't actually have a spell slot adjustment, it affects the spell based on the spell slot. Note you could always prepare lower level spells into higher level spell slots, heighten simply makes that do something, so easy metamagic won't do anything, since it has no spell slot adjustment, and DMM likewise wouldn't do anything for the same reason, it's affected by the slot it's cast from.

Its not that, the reason I'm using that is not for occupying higher level slots but to make the character able to cast 2nd level spells for Mystic Theurge. Using DMM Heighten to heighten a 1st level slot to 2nd level would mean you are able to cast 2nd level spells doesn't it?

Also even if the easy metamagic + heighten spell doesn't work it still does not disprove my point on that there are various ways to qualify for Mystic Theurge with 1 level of Ur-Priest.

[Tvtyrant]

Not possible. Mystic Theurge requires the ability to cast 2nd level divine spells, which the Ur Priest does not get at level one. At absolute minimum, you need a two level dip into Ur Priest, which is still good, but not as good, as your arcane casting gets hurt more. Heck, you miss out on a whole 9th level slot just because of that extra Ur Priest level needed.

This build does not seem viable to me.

I do not want to sound rude.

So you trade 1 9th level spell for access to a different one, and access to a whole additional list of spells. That seems viable to me.

[Jack_Simth]

Would it be fair to say that the allure of dual 9s is the broad range of your spell access? If so, how many spells are there on the Wizard spell list that are not available to archivists?
None, due to a curious quirk of scroll creation (the reverse does not apply), provided the Archivist can get temporary control over something that has the desired spell(s).

Of course, the wizard can get minions that have the desired spells ... just only for as long as the wizard can control said minion, while the Archivist gets it forever. Still, both can have access to whatever with a smallish amount of work... so both are T-1 for a reason.

[RoboEmperor]

1. Early Access. 9th level spells are broken at 17th level. Imagine at 14th level. Who cares about spell slots? You break games by doing out of combat shenanigans with spells, not in combat shenanigans, which is why higher level spells at lower level > everything. Main reason Artificer is the strongest class in the game. Miracle alone grants you access to every single 7th level spell in the game.
2. He can steal wish SLA for free wishes
3. As mentioned above, mystic theurge.

Ignore all of the heighten spell early access though, that requires DM leniency to fly so don't rely on it.

[Arcanist]

a Wizard 10/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 9 and you cast spells like a 19th wizard and a 10th Ur-Priest.

You're gonna want to go with Wizard 9 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 9.

The only way you can really get any better than this is StP-Erudite 9 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 9. 9th level divine, 9th level Arcane, and 8th level Arcane. There is a nebulous trick involving Human and Strongheart Halfling that lets you take Favored Discipline (Spells) since it counts as a power, and you get a bonus feat that you can from your race at 1st level and blah, blah, blah. I want to believe, but whatever.

[Thurbane]

Not possible. Mystic Theurge requires the ability to cast 2nd level divine spells, which the Ur Priest does not get at level one. At absolute minimum, you need a two level dip into Ur Priest, which is still good, but not as good, as your arcane casting gets hurt more. Heck, you miss out on a whole 9th level slot just because of that extra Ur Priest level needed.

This build does not seem viable to me.

I do not want to sound rude.

I would suggest searching the archives for Ur Priest builds.

Dual 9ths are easily achievable. With enough cheese, triple 9ths (or close enough to) are available.



Don't mean to be rude, but is this a troll account, or you genuinely don't see why Ur-Priest is so powerful?

[StevenC21]

I never troll.

I am new to 3.5.

In addition, I don't appreciate that you would say I'm trolling, or even say I might be. However, your intentions seem alright.

If I wanted to troll, I wouldn't be talking about something so trivial.

[Thurbane]

I never troll.

I am new to 3.5.

In addition, I don't appreciate that you would say I'm trolling, or even say I might be. However, your intentions seem alright.

If I wanted to troll, I wouldn't be talking about something so trivial.

No problem, glad you didn't take offence.

Something like Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 5/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 5/Abjurant Champion 4 gets dual 9ths...and that's not even one of the more optimised builds.

[Jack_Simth]

Don't mean to be rude, but is this a troll account, or you genuinely don't see why Ur-Priest is so powerful?
To be fair, Ur-priest is *mostly* overrated. It's got a few gems to it:
1) The faster spell access
2) The Steal spell-like ability capstone
3) The synergy with theurge PrC's.

Unless you use early entry tricks, Ur-Priest only gives you better spell access than a cleric on a fairly short listing of levels. Breakdown goes like this:

Basic entry to Ur-Priest is as level 6, due to skill rank requirements.
At 6th, the Whatever-5/Ur-Priest-1 has 1st level Divine spells, vs. a Cleric-6's 3rd. Advantage: Cleric
At 7th, the whatever-5/Ur-Priest-2 has 2nd level Divine spells, vs. a Cleric-7's 4th. Advantage: Cleric
At 8th, the whatever-5/Ur-Priest-3 has 3rd level Divine spells, vs. a Cleric-8's 4th. Advantage: Cleric
At 9th, the whatever-5/Ur-Priest-4 has 4thd level Divine spells, vs. a Cleric-9's. Advantage: Cleric
At 10th, the whatever-5/Ur-Priest-5 has 5th level Divine spells, vs. a Cleric-10's 4th. Tie on access, Cleric has more slots. Advantage: Cleric (barely)
At 11th, the whatever-5/Ur-Priest-6 has 6th level Divine spells, vs. a Cleric-11's 6th. Tie on access, Cleric has more slots. Advantage: Cleric (barely)
At 12th, the whatever-5/Ur-Priest-7 has 7th level Divine spells, vs. a Cleric-12's 6th. Advantage: Ur-Priest
At 13th, the whatever-5/Ur-Priest-8 has 8th level Divine spells, vs. a Cleric-13's 7th. Advantage: Ur-Priest
At 14th, the whatever-5/Ur-Priest-9 has 9th level Divine spells, vs. a Cleric-14's 7th. Advantage: Ur-Priest
At 15th, the whatever-5/Ur-Priest-10 has 9th level Divine spells, vs. a Cleric-15's 8th. Advantage: Ur-Priest
At 16th, the whatever-5/Ur-Priest-10/whatever-1 has 9th level Divine spells, vs. a Cleric-16's 8th. Advantage: Ur-Priest
At 17th, the whatever-5/Ur-Priest-10/whatever-2 has 9th level Divine spells, vs. a Cleric-17's 9th. Tie on access, 9th level slots will usually be about tied. Mostly tied in terms of spells.
At 18th, the whatever-5/Ur-Priest-10/whatever-3 has 9th level Divine spells, vs. a Cleric-18's 9th. Tie on access, Cleric has more slots. Advantage: Cleric (barely)
At 19th, the whatever-5/Ur-Priest-10/whatever-4 has 9th level Divine spells, vs. a Cleric-19's 9th. Tie on access, Cleric has more slots. Advantage: Cleric (slot difference starts being meaningful)
At 20th, the whatever-5/Ur-Priest-10/whatever-5 has 9th level Divine spells, vs. a Cleric-20's 9th. Tie on access, Cleric has more slots. Advantage: Cleric.

So a "pure" Ur-Priest is only ahead for about five total levels of the expected 1-20 game vs. a "pure" cleric (12th to 16th). If you're playing outside that window, a "pure" Ur-Priest isn't ahead on spell access (if you are playing in that window, though, it's gold). Steal spell-like ability: You meet an outsider, you can copy one of it's spell like abilities 3/day or however many times it can do it, whichever's less, that day. The outsider isn't harmed by this "theft" at all.

Spell-like abilities don't have components, which means if you meet an Efreeti (Lots of ways to get one; Call Planar Ally can potentially get you one (at least, if you ignore the bit where the DM picks the critter); Gate can get you one; there's lots of ways), you can steal it's 1/day ability to grant a nongenie three wishes. Most Ur-Priests are nongenies, so you can then grant yourself three wishes. Gold, spells, arbitrarily-valued magic items, whatever. Very, very sweet, right?

Well... not so much. The first time will abuse it, the DM will almost always recognize the broken combo, and most (not all) will ban that use... which makes this decidedly less shiny in practice than it is on paper. It's still useful without free wishes, but not nearly as shiny as it's made out to be.Because of the access to 9th level spells over a 10-level PrC, Ur-Priest is a very common ingredient in double-9 builds. A common build outline is Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Full Arcane Advancement PrC's of choice-4. 9th level Divine spells starting at 15th (one level later than a "pure" Ur-Priest build), 9th level Arcane spells starting at 19th (two levels behind a pure Wizard). There's refinements and variants (If you can make a 1st level spell count as a 2nd on the Ur-Priest side, you only lose one Arcane caster level, for instance; there's also a bardic variant that goes Sublime Chord for the heavy lifting on the arcane side; and so on), but that's the basic build outline.

There's drawbacks, though:
1) A "pure" Ur-priest build gets far fewer spells per day than does a standard Cleric. If you're not playing in one of the "sweet spots" where the Ur-Priest gets better spell access, this hurts a lot (in comparison to a Cleric, anyway).
2) Ur-Priest spell advancement is faster, but it doesn't kick in until you've met all the Ur-Priest requirements so you can start taking Ur-Priest levels. This means in those early levels of Ur-Priest, you're behind where the game expects you to be. This can be a problem, as the "day after" spells *mostly* crop up on the divine list at approximately the same levels where the abilities that need them start showing up on monsters.
3) Your caster level is behind unless you spend further resources. Yes, you get half caster level from your arcane levels, but the "basic" Ur-Priest build of [something]-5/Ur-Priest-10 will have a caster level of about 12 (assuming at least 4 levels of an arcane caster in the "something"). This means reduced spell effects (e.g., Greater Magic Weapon will often be a +1 short), less likelihood of getting through SR, and shorter durations on spells... or a feat tax for practiced spellcaster. Some interpretations of the Theurge build will eventually put you at a higher-than-full caster level. Talk to your DM, though.
4) Theurging delays the spell access (you'll usually need an extra level in advance of the Ur-Priest levels to make all the requirements, or you'll pause briefly on your Ur-Priest progression to get a different Arcane chassis in - and every level you delay Ur-Priest progression drops two levels from the range where you're ahead on spell access), and is largely incompatible with abusing the capstone (if you theurge Ur-Priest, you stop taking actual Ur-Priest levels, and thus don't get the Ur-Priest class features - and the big gem of a feature is at the end of the progression).
5) Theurging almost always makes for a very Multiple-Attribute-Dependancy (MAD) character. You'll need Wis for Divine spells, either Cha or Int for Arcane, and Con for hp and Fort saves. Some of the variants are worse: a Sublime Ur-Theurge needs Wis for Divine spells, Charisma for Arcane Spells, and Int to be able to get all the skill requirements in, plus Con for HP and Fort saves. This stretches character resources relatively thin.

So relative to a pure cleric:
In a game expected to end at 12th or earlier, Ur-Priest is a trap option - it's got lots of downsides, and doesn't do much that you couldn't do better with a pure Cleric (it's underpowered).
In a game that goes from level 1 to 20, Ur-Priest has a lot of drawbacks, but is viable and has a very nice "sweet spot" (aka, it's mostly balanced)
In a game that is expected to take place entirely in the level range of 13-16, Ur-Priest is well worth the cost, and is mostly a no-brainer option (aka, it's overpowered).
In a game that starts at 13th or higher, and is expected to run to 17th or later, Ur-Priest is a tool to consider, but far from a "must have" option (aka, it's mostly balanced)

[tyckspoon]

Not possible. Mystic Theurge requires the ability to cast 2nd level divine spells, which the Ur Priest does not get at level one. At absolute minimum, you need a two level dip into Ur Priest, which is still good, but not as good, as your arcane casting gets hurt more. Heck, you miss out on a whole 9th level slot just because of that extra Ur Priest level needed.

This build does not seem viable to me.

I do not want to sound rude.

Personally, Ur-Priest 2 would be a preferred level anyway, because at that level you get Rebuke Undead. Which means you unlock the school of neat powers and outright shenanigans that is Divine and Devotion feats powered by Turn/Rebuke Undead uses. Would you pay a 9th level slot to be able to use Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell or Quicken Spell? How about Law Devotion or Travel Devotion if you're looking to go gishy? Divine Defiance?

[Jack_Simth]

Personally, Ur-Priest 2 would be a preferred level anyway, because at that level you get Rebuke Undead. Which means you unlock the school of neat powers and outright shenanigans that is Divine and Devotion feats powered by Turn/Rebuke Undead uses. Would you pay a 9th level slot to be able to use Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell or Quicken Spell? How about Law Devotion or Travel Devotion if you're looking to go gishy? Divine Defiance?

Do also keep in mind that you're going to be an extra character level behind on your arcane access when doing that. The game isn't only played at 20th, after all, and a Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Arcane-Advancement-PrC-of-Choice-2 is an 18th level character with no 9th level Wizard spells at all, while a Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-1/Mystic Theurge-9/Arcane-Advancement-PrC-of-Choice-2 is an 18th level character with 9th level Wizard spells.

[Andreaz]

Heck, you miss out on a whole 9th level slot just because of that extra Ur Priest level needed.

This build does not seem viable to me.

I do not want to sound rude.

I found the reason you don't understand why Ur-Priest is good.
You're not evaluating spells properly. Or evaluating roundaboutness too high.


Full casters are on the insane end of power because Spells are just that good if you know what you're doing.
"Oh no, I only have 2 lvl 9 spells + bonus from two attributes" is not weak. It's a full caster with two spell lists.

At most you can argue that its early play is weird, or that you have to spread two mental attributes and lose some save DCs

Both can be dodged relatively well. You can't even complain about a low caster level, because it's trivial for a caster/urpriest build to bring it up to the "lvl -2 to lvl" range.

So an ur priest is either going to be built as "a fighter with less feats and 9th level spells" or "a theurge that actually works".

I don't like theurges, and i'd just roll a cleric if I wanted a full caster beatstick. BUT that doesn't mean the setup is "not viable".

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Huh, nobody has touched on my favorite use of Ur-Priest yet. It's not the most high Op, but its relatively simple and has obvious raw power.

step 1. Take levels in one or more full BAB classes until you qualify for Ur-Priest.
step 2. Take 2 levels of Ur-Priest.
step 3. Advance in full BAB/Full or 9/10 divine casting PrC of choice.

Crusader into adapted Ruby Knight Vindicator is probably the best, but there are others. You're losing 1 BAB and two levels worth of Martial Class Abilities to get casting that will soon catch up with full casters. Even at its worst level (Base Class X/Ur-Priest 1) just spell list access to allow self buffing from wands is debatably worthwhile, though a Cleric level would have been better to get domain abilities which might be better than the sacrificed martial class features.