Best/Worst theme-adhering Multiclasses

[Willie the Duck]

By theme-adhering, I mean different classes with archetype themes (shadow, celestial, storm, etc., but also maybe more stretched analogy themes if anyone wants) that match, like Storm Sorcerer, Storm Herald Barbarian, and Tempest Cleric.

Obviously, all the Cha-based classes have some overall synergy, so Glamour Bard with Ancients Paladin and Fae Warlock will work (although I'm not sure the actual specific archetype abilities specifically synergize). I know Gloomstalker and Shadow Sorcerer have darkvision abilities that don't boost each other, although a shadowblade-wielding ranger would be a lot of fun. Trickery Cleric and Rogue... well that sounds fine but again not really greater than the component parts.

Anyone have any thoughts on things that work very well or very poorly?

[Laserlight]

"I am learning to control the magic that flows through me". Wild Sorc + Four Elemonk.

[Aett_Thorn]

Monk/Barbarian brawler, trying to use both Dex and Str to attack.

Viking Skald Barbarian/Bard. Sure you can't cast spells, but you can still give out your juicy Bardic Inspiration.

[Man_Over_Game]

For anyone who is frustrated about these lack of archetypes, and for more examples of these kinds of combinations, check out my Prestige Options homebrew in my signature. It allows things like:


Strength-based Monk (to multiclass with Barbarian)
Charisma-based Shephard Druid (to multiclass with Bard or other social classes)
Charisma-based Cleric (to multiclass with Bard/Paladin)



I've done a lot of research into adding specific restrictions to each to prevent overpowered multiclassing in each instance. For example, the Charisma-Cleric isn't allowed to multiclass with Sorcerer and Warlock, which is both a narrative and mechanical choice. Clerics are incredibly versatile, and opening them up to more versatility with their casting will cause other builds to feel inferior, and Sorcerer/Warlock are great choices to add versatility to a caster.

It's a pretty extensive list, and if anyone comes up with any archetypes that aren't available from these changes (or any balance concerns), please let me know!

[RogueJK]

Monk1/Moon DruidX makes for a great "feral Druid". Picture a naked animalistic Druid tearing into their enemies with bare hands and teeth, and Wildshaping into bigger and meaner forms to better tear into enemies with claws and teeth.

Prioritize WIS, followed by DEX and CON. You won't use or need weapons or armor.

Most major combats consist of you casting a spell and then Bonus Action Wildshaping and entering melee. Your Wildshape AC will be higher than a normal Moon Druid.

When you don't want to Wildshape, you still have a good unarmored AC (16-20), and can still hang in combat using spells and unarmed strikes. You can use Bonus Action Martial Arts for 2x 1d4+DEX unarmed strikes per round, or use the Primal Savagery cantrip for 1x magical claw/bite attack. (Primal Savagery is more optimal past Level 10 as its damage outpaces the two unarmed strikes, and may be more optimal prior to that if your WIS is significantly higher than your DEX. Plus it works on enemies who require magic to hit.)

[Trustypeaches]

Tempest Cleric / Storm Sorcerer
"I AM THE LIVING STORM"

Knowledge Cleric / Divination Wizard
"Yes... I can see everything"

Battlemaster Fighter / Swashbuckler Rogue
"This is the day you will always remember as the day you almost caught Captain Jack Sparrow"

[RogueJK]

I also like Ranger5/Nature ClericX, which I call "The Nature God's Champion". Harkens back to the old AD&D Ranger/Cleric multiclass. It works well as a more melee-focused Nature Cleric with a wider variety of lower level spells, at the expense of upper level Cleric casting.

Both classes have the Nature theme, and both use similar stats. Main stat is typically either STR or DEX, with WIS second, and CON third. (Though it's possible to focus on WIS as your primary stat, as discussed a bit later.)

If you go STR-focused, you'll still need a 13 DEX for multiclass purposes. But starting with Ranger for proficiency with DEX saves, combined with Gloomstalker's +WIS to Initiative, Pass Without Trace's +10 to Stealth, and potentially Shield Master's +2 to DEX saves, means you won't need any higher than 13 DEX. Wear Heavy Armor and use a STR weapon, likely with a shield. Take Athletics proficiency for shoving/grappling (especially if you're doing Shield Master). Firbolg or Centaur is a good choices for this STR-focused route.

If you go DEX-focused, you can dump STR. This one's a bit easier to pull off, as you only need to worry about the three stats of DEX/WIS/CON. Wear light armor and use a Rapier and Shield. This route will be stealthier, and have the ability to also be effective with a Longbow at range, but will have a slightly lower AC and no ability to shove/grapple. You'll want to take Acrobatics proficiency to counter enemy grapples. Wood Elf, Aarakocra, Kenku, or Ghostwise Halfling would be good race choices for this DEX-focused route.

It's also possible to build this as primarily WIS-focused, if you use your free Druid cantrip from the first level of Nature Cleric to pick up Shillelagh. That makes your melee attacks with either a club or quarterstaff key off WIS for Attack and Damage instead of STR/DEX, at the cost of eating up some of your Bonus Actions and limiting your weapon selection, and also being moderately MAD at the outset. This route won't be as good at Grapples/Shoves as a STR-focus, nor as Stealthy or Acrobatic as a DEX-focus. But you can potentially have a slightly higher CON to be a slightly better tank with a bit more HP. Going this route doesn't mean you can totally dump DEX or STR, though. Stick to at least a 13 DEX for multiclassing, and if you want to wear Heavy Armor you don't want to totally dump STR (unless you're a Dwarf). WIS will be highest, followed by CON, and either a DEX13 with STR15 for Heavy Armor, or a DEX14 with dumped STR for Medium Armor. (Or a DEX13 and dumped STR for Dwarves with Heavy Armor.) Hill Dwarf is the best option for this WIS-focused route to get a few extra HP and not have to worry about STR, but Water Genasi, Loxodon, or Lizardfolk could also do well.

Human, Half-Elf, or Emissary Warforged could be good for any of these three routes.


5 levels of Ranger gets you an extra skill, Favored Enemy and Terrain, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Fighting Style, Extra Attack, some 1st and 2nd Level Ranger spells known, and +2 caster levels for higher level spells slots. At Ranger3, you can go Gloomstalker for Darkvision, +WIS to Initiative, and some stealth/ambush abilities, or Hunter for flat extra damage. If your DM allows Revised Ranger, that's even better.

Nature Cleric gets you Heavy Armor, an extra nature-related skill, an additional Druid cantrip, at-will shareable Absorb Elements at Level 6, several choices of extra elemental damage at Level 8, some useful Nature-related domain spells, and all the normal Cleric stuff.


This build works from the get-go as a melee fighter with some casting ability and nature skills. The damage really starts to pick up at Ranger3/Cleric3 (Martial Weapon Attack + Spiritual Weapon + Colossus Slayer + Hunter's Mark). It then ramps up further at Ranger5/Cleric3 (Martial Weapon Attack + Extra Attack + Spiritual Weapon + Colossus Slayer + Hunter's Mark). It really hits its stride at Ranger5/Cleric5 (Martial Weapon Attack + Extra Attack + Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardians + Colossus Slayer). And it becomes even more of a damage monster at Ranger5/Cleric8 (Martial Weapon Attack + Extra Attack + Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardians + Colossus Slayer + Divine Strike).

That's not counting any other buffs or magic items.

[Willie the Duck]

"I am learning to control the magic that flows through me". Wild Sorc + Four Elemonk.


Tempest Cleric / Storm Sorcerer
"I AM THE LIVING STORM"

Knowledge Cleric / Divination Wizard
"Yes... I can see everything"

Battlemaster Fighter / Swashbuckler Rogue
"This is the day you will always remember as the day you almost caught Captain Jack Sparrow"

Are these examples of combos that work well, or poorly (in your estimation), and why?

[Laserlight]

Are these examples of combos that work well, or poorly (in your estimation), and why?

The three Trusty posted are good. Mine is SO horrible...

[Man_Over_Game]

Tempest Cleric / Storm Sorcerer
"I AM THE LIVING STORM"

Knowledge Cleric / Divination Wizard
"Yes... I can see everything"

Battlemaster Fighter / Swashbuckler Rogue
"This is the day you will always remember as the day you almost caught Captain Jack Sparrow"


Are these examples of combos that work well, or poorly (in your estimation), and why?

Tempest Cleric and Storm Sorcerer have enough synergy revolving around melee combat and lightning/thunder damage to overlook the fact that you're MAD.

Knowledge Cleric/Divination Wizard is workable only as a non-combative option. Both Cleric and Wizard are powerful full casters that only gain power from multiclassing when it benefits their casting (such as by improving Concentration saving throws, Metamagic, increased defenses, etc.), and don't gain much from multiclassing with one another. However, neither is very dependent on their primary ability scores, especially for the sake of their utility/RP abilities, so they can afford to be a bit MAD. Their primary benefit for combat will be to create some sort of advantage before combat ever starts.

Battlemaster Fighter and Swashbuckler Rogue works fine, since they both work off of Dexterity, attacking, multiple attacks per turn, and can swap to ranged weapons as needed. This is a 100% effective build, just make sure you have a plan on how to make the most out of the Swashbuckler's mobility. Some use it for hit-and-run, to make up for the Rogue's low armor and HP, but having levels into Fighter makes up for that, so having the option to flee is less relevant.

[Edgerunner]

Battlemaster Fighter and Swashbuckler Rogue works fine, since they both work off of Dexterity, attacking, multiple attacks per turn, and can swap to ranged weapons as needed. This is a 100% effective build, just make sure you have a plan on how to make the most out of the Swashbuckler's mobility. Some use it for hit-and-run, to make up for the Rogue's low armor and HP, but having levels into Fighter makes up for that, so having the option to flee is less relevant.

I would be interested in seeing a LvL x LvL build guide for that.
Hhmmm.

[Man_Over_Game]

I would be interested in seeing a LvL x LvL build guide for that.
Hhmmm.


Rogue 1
Fighter 1 (Picking either Protection, Dueling, or Two Weapon Fighting, in order of Defense-Offense that's needed for your team)
Fighter 2
Fighter 3 (Battlemaster, Maneuvers are Riposte, Feinting Attack/Parry, Goading Attack)
Fighter 4 (Sentinel)
Fighter 5
Rogue X (Swashbuckler)




Level 1 Rogue is to get you access into a plethora of skills right off the bat. You miss out on 2 HP that Fighter would have gotten you, but that's no biggy.
Level 2 Fighter gets you medium armor. Booyah.
From there, go into Fighter until you get the coveted Extra Attack, then focus on your Rogue levels.

You can afford to dip a few more levels into Fighter for the extra feat/ASI or the extra superiority die and maneuvers. Basically, more Fighter will make you a better melee combatant, and more Rogue will make you deal more damage, so divide your levels based on what your team needs. Because Rogue sneak attacks only work once per turn, it's best to focus on that than it is to get a third Attack from Fighter.

Since you have Extra Attack, you have multiple options for your Bonus Action, and you have multiple options to stick to enemies with, you can afford to use your shield instead of a second weapon. The goal is to use your mobility to stick to enemies while keeping them away from your teammates. You can afford to draw enemies away from your team by using Goading Attack and then fleeing with your Swashbuckler mobility. Dash in and be a mobile obstacle with Sentinel, then maneuver around enemies and stick to someone who's harassing one of your teammates (once again abusing Sentinel).

Feats should go in this order:

Sentinel

ASI for Dex (until Dex is 16)

Medium Armor Master (if your team needs a tank more than stealth, otherwise just go ASI for Dex)

[PeteNutButter]

Rather than looking at individual multiclass combos, maybe consider them as a group.

Holy Folk: Devotion & Redemption Paladin/Cleric/Divine Soul Sorcerer/Celestial Warlock/Zealot Barbarian/Sun Soul Monk

Nature Folk: Ancients Paladin/Fey Warlock/Wild Magic Sorcerer?/Druid/Ranger/Nature Cleric/Scout Rogue/Glamour Bard?

Dark Folk: Warlock (most)/Shadow Sorcerer/Gloom Stalker/Shadow Monk/Rogue?

Elemental Folk: Storm Herald Barb/Tempest Cleric/Storm & Dragon Sorcerer/Four Elements Monk/Evoker Wizard

Dead Folk: Undying Warlock/Necromancer/Oathbreaker Paladin/Long Death Monk/Death Cleric

Weapon Master/Duelist Folk: Battle Master Fighter/Swashbuckler Rogue/Swords Bard/Kensei

Tricky Folk: Trickery Cleric/Illusionist Wizard/Arcane Trickster

You can obviously segment these as you see fit, and there are plenty of categories you could combine. As for viability, generally not being MAD is good enough to make them viable.

[Laserlight]

To amplify on one of the above: Knowledge Cleric 1 gets you armor proficiency, Guidance, Bless, a couple other cantrips and spells, and some skills. After that you're straight Divination all the way. You're a level behind in learning new spells but you have full slots.

The usual builds for Storm Sorc / Termpest end with Tempest 2 or 6 and the rest Sorc. Look up "Lightning Lord" for the details.

I personally didn't like Swash / Battlemaster but I did 3/3 and I probably should have done 5/1

[RogueJK]

The usual builds for Storm Sorc / Termpest end with Tempest 2 or 6 and the rest Sorc. Look up "Lightning Lord" for the details.


StormSorc1/TempClericX is also a good choice.

Stick to 13 CHA only, for the minimum needed to multiclass. Take the first level as Storm Sorcerer, to pick up CON save proficiency for Concentration, Booming Blade and three utility cantrips, Shield and Absorb Elements, and free short-range "teleportation" upon casting a spell. Then go straight Tempest Cleric. This 1 level dip allows your Tempest Cleric to be even better than usual in melee, and it's thematically appropriate too.

[Willie the Duck]

Rather than looking at individual multiclass combos, maybe consider them as a group.

This makes me think I've not communicated my goal, since I want the individual builds/combos.
Other than the basic fact that entire premise is just because it sounded interesting to the mull over, my goal is to look at individual combinations and decide which are good or bad, with a focus on which are good or bad together, and particularly which ones have the actual archetypes work synergistically or complementary (as opposed to just complementary base classes, like paladin/warlock).

This got started by this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?580852-Coolest-Booming-Blade-combo)thread, and discussion about a Storm Sorcerer/Tempest Cleric build working together, and the realization that a Shadow Sorcerer/Gloomstalker would not work as well (despite the same level of thematic overlap) because its' powers overlapped, rather than complemented each other.

[Trustypeaches]

Knowledge Cleric/Divination Wizard is workable only as a non-combative option. Both Cleric and Wizard are powerful full casters that only gain power from multiclassing when it benefits their casting (such as by improving Concentration saving throws, Metamagic, increased defenses, etc.), and don't gain much from multiclassing with one another. However, neither is very dependent on their primary ability scores, especially for the sake of their utility/RP abilities, so they can afford to be a bit MAD. Their primary benefit for combat will be to create some sort of advantage before combat ever starts.You would only go Knowledge cleric for a single level dip, which gets you medium armor, shields and an excellent malleable spell list (Bless, Healing Word / Cure Wounds, Command, Guidance, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Detect Magic, etc.).

Even spells like Inflict Wounds and Guiding Bolt are much better than the Wizard's 1st-level damage spells and can save you room in your spell book. You could also pick a different Domain such as Forge Cleric, Grave Cleric, or Order Cleric who all have nice 1st level benefits.

It's hardly just a "non-combative" option. You gain a lot of defense and utility out of a single level dip. The build is entirely functional.

[Man_Over_Game]

Lord of Darkness: Hexblade + Shadow Sorcerer. Turn yourself into a black orb that curses you and fires machinegun lasers with enhanced damage and accuracy.
Warrior through Wisdom: Druid dip into Monk. Utilize Wisdom rather than Dexterity as your main stat, by focusing on Shillelagh as your primary cantrip from Druid, and then leveling the rest of the way into Monk. Monk subclasses should be Four Elements or Long Death. Play an old man who fights with his mind.
Guardian of the Wilds: Ranger + Land Druid. Utilize powerful Ranger spells by abusing the Short Rest recharging of Land Druid spell slots. Coast is the Land Druid choice here.
Master of Lies: Whispers Bard + Great Old One Warlock Patron + Mask of Many Faces. Get anywhere, speak lies to everyone, look like anyone. Inspire fear and paranoia casually.
Avatar of Savagery: Moon Druid + Barbarian. Transform into a beast and become unstoppable as you rage. There is virtually nothing that can put down a raging Moon Druid.

[Particle_Man]

Oathbreaker Paladin/Fiendpact Warlock has an obvious thematic throughline.

[PeteNutButter]

This makes me think I've not communicated my goal, since I want the individual builds/combos.
Other than the basic fact that entire premise is just because it sounded interesting to the mull over, my goal is to look at individual combinations and decide which are good or bad, with a focus on which are good or bad together, and particularly which ones have the actual archetypes work synergistically or complementary (as opposed to just complementary base classes, like paladin/warlock).

This got started by this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?580852-Coolest-Booming-Blade-combo)thread, and discussion about a Storm Sorcerer/Tempest Cleric build working together, and the realization that a Shadow Sorcerer/Gloomstalker would not work as well (despite the same level of thematic overlap) because its' powers overlapped, rather than complemented each other.

I see. I am actually currently playing a Gloom Stalker/Sorcerer. The original plan was to go shadow sorcerer, but when I read the bonus gloom stalker darkvision only works from racial darkvision(why?) I was tilted away from it (going divine instead).

The build is actually very strong, and would be just as strong with shadow sorcerer. The required 13 cha is MAD, but shadow blade is very good on a ranger, who unlike the paladin doesn't have as much competition on spell slots. Being able to be stealthy and see in the dark makes it a lot easier to trigger the advantage on shadow blade attacks. At level 8 I was able to make 3 attacks each round one with that 3d8 shadow blade. That's like a level 1 smite on every attack. It outperformed my expectations and then some.

[Willie the Duck]

I see. I am actually currently playing a Gloom Stalker/Sorcerer. The original plan was to go shadow sorcerer, but when I read the bonus gloom stalker darkvision only works from racial darkvision(why?) I was tilted away from it (going divine instead).

I can't say for sure as to the why, but if I'd hazard a guess, it was to make it not work with a magic item or the Darkvision spell, as my impression is that the designers very much don't care too much if someone's MultiClass (optional rules and all) build is hampered. Still, it seems extra pointless.


The build is actually very strong, and would be just as strong with shadow sorcerer. The required 13 cha is MAD, but shadow blade is very good on a ranger, who unlike the paladin doesn't have as much competition on spell slots. Being able to be stealthy and see in the dark makes it a lot easier to trigger the advantage on shadow blade attacks. At level 8 I was able to make 3 attacks each round one with that 3d8 shadow blade. That's like a level 1 smite on every attack. It outperformed my expectations and then some.


It certainly seems like a good build. I just noticed how there is a direct dis-synergy going on, whereas the storm example almost directly feeds each other (one boosts thunder/lightning magic but has almost none, while the other has all the best thunder/lightning spells).

[McSkrag]

Tempest Cleric / Storm Sorcerer
"I AM THE LIVING STORM"

Knowledge Cleric / Divination Wizard
"Yes... I can see everything"

Battlemaster Fighter / Swashbuckler Rogue
"This is the day you will always remember as the day you almost caught Captain Jack Sparrow"

Hahaha... I've been thinking about all 3 of these builds.

I currently have an AL legal Knowledge Cleric 1 / Divination Wizard 4 that is super fun. I play him like an Arcane Investigator who wants to know all the things. Out of combat the guidance cantrip makes him very good at investigating and figuring out mysteries. In combat he's a wizard with solid AC.

Along the lines of a Tempest Cleric 2 / Storm Sorcerer X...

Avatar of Volcanic Ash
Fire Genasi with Elemental Adept Lightning
Tempest Cleric 2 / Evocation Wizard X
1/short rest maximize a shatter, lightning bolt, or chain lightning. 1/day Overchannel a level 5 nuke. Empowered Evocation for Magic Missile madness.

[Naanomi]

Aasimar Divine Soul/Celestial Pact Warlock... or... ‘Aasimar the class’. It is a sorc/lock so I’m sure it would be fine mechanically

Svirfneblin Gloomstalker/Shadow Monk/Shadow Sorcerer... couldn’t be more MAD but would play well if you had the stats

[Max_Killjoy]

Shadow Sorcerer / Shadow Monk seems really... sub-optimal at first reading.

Despite being about internal power and shadows across the board.


And in general Sorc / Monk seems rough, even though they'd have a "thematic" appeal in the character with burgeoning internal power seeking out a life of contemplation and discipline to control it.

[Chronos]

Despite the subclasses having the same name, I don't think that a war cleric/wizard would work very well. But that's mostly because the war wizard is boring and doesn't seem to have any unifying theme.

It's funny, but I was just thinking about something like this the other day, except I was thinking of what matching-archetype balanced parties you could make. Like, a death party could be a necromancer wizard, a death or grave cleric, an assassin rogue, and a long death monk. A cleric of some sort, a celestial warlock, a divine soul sorcerer, and a devotion paladin would work well together, but you'd be missing a skillmonkey. We need a divine bard-- Call it a cantor, maybe.

[OzDragon]

Monk/Barbarian brawler, trying to use both Dex and Str to attack.

Viking Skald Barbarian/Bard. Sure you can't cast spells, but you can still give out your juicy Bardic Inspiration.

Why do people think this? Under Monk it says you can use dex for your attack not that you have to. Yes your AC sill suffer but use the barbarian AC calculation.

Go Barb 1 Monk 3 then whatever floats your boat. Go Kensei to get a battle axe and some ac when attacking unarmed, grapple then beat down.

The only real thing that suffers is your Stunning Fist DC.

[Man_Over_Game]

Why do people think this? Under Monk it says you can use dex for your attack not that you have to. Yes your AC sill suffer but use the barbarian AC calculation.

Go Barb 1 Monk 3 then whatever floats your boat. Go Kensei to get a battle axe and some ac when attacking unarmed, grapple then beat down.

The only real thing that suffers is your Stunning Fist DC.

One of the concerns is the fact that going Monk requires both a 13 into Dex and Wis, so you're hurting for attributes pretty hard. Unless you have a DM who's willing to overlook the multiclassing requirements, you'll have pretty mundane stats across the board.

[PeteNutButter]

Why do people think this? Under Monk it says you can use dex for your attack not that you have to. Yes your AC sill suffer but use the barbarian AC calculation.

Go Barb 1 Monk 3 then whatever floats your boat. Go Kensei to get a battle axe and some ac when attacking unarmed, grapple then beat down.

The only real thing that suffers is your Stunning Fist DC.

The problem isn’t just that your AC starts low, but that it almost never increases. If you go mountain dwarf you can manage a 14 dex 16 str/com and the 13 wisdom. That’s AC 15 or 17 when using the kensei thing. It’ll never go up as you increase str over dex. Best way to make this work is just be a tortle.

[OzDragon]

The problem isn’t just that your AC starts low, but that it almost never increases. If you go mountain dwarf you can manage a 14 dex 16 str/com and the 13 wisdom. That’s AC 15 or 17 when using the kensei thing. It’ll never go up as you increase str over dex. Best way to make this work is just be a tortle.

Yes but you also have rage at least 2 times a day which helps a lot.

[Nidgit]

Horizon Walker 17/Samurai 3 has always looked pretty interesting to me. Thematically it can really double down on the "lonely foreign warrior" concept.

Druid/Mastermind has some neat appeal to if you want to be a radical environmentalist. Druids don't have that many uses for a bonus action, particularly while beast shaped, so the Mastermind's BA Help is a nice touch. More importantly, you make an absurdly good spy or burglar.

[Man_Over_Game]

Horizon Walker 17/Samurai 3 has always looked pretty interesting to me. Thematically it can really double down on the "lonely foreign warrior" concept.

Druid/Mastermind has some neat appeal to if you want to be a radical environmentalist. Druids don't have that many uses for a bonus action, particularly while beast shaped, so the Mastermind's BA Help is a nice touch. More importantly, you make an absurdly good spy or burglar.

I honestly have to say that Horizon Walker + Samurai is a terrible mechanical choice. Both of their primary abilities rely on Bonus Actions, and on top of that, the Ranger also has many attack-oriented spells that use it as well.

Now, Gloomstalker, Hunter, or Monster Slayer would all do great as a Samurai, since they don't utilize the Bonus Action much, and two of those offer more attacks (great for Samurai).

A solid combination for the Horizon Walker would be instead using the Battlemaster. The Horizon Walker has a unique skillset that works well with changing between melee and ranged combat, and the Battlemaster does the same and doesn't compete for the coveted Bonus Action.

[Max_Killjoy]

Shadow Sorcerer / Shadow Monk seems really... sub-optimal at first reading.

Despite being about internal power and shadows across the board.


And in general Sorc / Monk seems rough, even though they'd have a "thematic" appeal in the character with burgeoning internal power seeking out a life of contemplation and discipline to control it.


Thought this might draw a bit of response, but maybe it's just everyone nodding their head and moving on to a post they can disagree with. :wink:

[Willie the Duck]

Thought this might draw a bit of response, but maybe it's just everyone nodding their head and moving on to a post they can disagree with. :wink:

Probably. That <martial class with tendency to need specific mental/social attribute as well> doesn't mesh well with <spellcasting class with different mental/social attribute as spellcasting stat> does not play well together is simply not surprising. Particularly given that a pure monk has a hard enough time keeping their AC up at good enough levels without another place to put ASIs.
The Shadow Monk/Shadow sorcerer would probably play better together if the Shadow Sorcerer's abilities gave them more mobility or stealthy advantages, instead of darkvision and a summoned hound ally (which is great, to be sure, but doesn't directly synergize with the monk in any specific way).

[RogueJK]

Yeah, if you're wanting a useful shadow-themed caster multiclass for a Monk, something like a Gloomstalker Ranger dip would be a better fit.

4 levels would get you an extra skill, Favored Enemy and Terrain, a Fighting Style, some 1st level spells, Darkvision (or increased Darkvision range), invisibility to enemy Darkvision, +WIS to Initiative, some additional bonuses on the first round of combat, and an ASI.

And it wouldn't be any more MAD, since both classes rely on DEX and WIS.

However, it would mean delaying your Monk abilities. Monks typically feel it a lot more than many other classes when they dip.

[Man_Over_Game]

For a combo like that, I'd probably just consider Warlock over Sorcerer. The Sorcerer is best if you can maintain range, but that conflicts with a lot that the Monk wants to do. Rather, go Warlock 3 for a spammable Darkness and Hex, both which do wonders for the Shadow Monk.

You also can gain access to Shadow Blade if you really care for it.

[Max_Killjoy]

Probably. That <martial class with tendency to need specific mental/social attribute as well> doesn't mesh well with <spellcasting class with different mental/social attribute as spellcasting stat> does not play well together is simply not surprising. Particularly given that a pure monk has a hard enough time keeping their AC up at good enough levels without another place to put ASIs.
The Shadow Monk/Shadow sorcerer would probably play better together if the Shadow Sorcerer's abilities gave them more mobility or stealthy advantages, instead of darkvision and a summoned hound ally (which is great, to be sure, but doesn't directly synergize with the monk in any specific way).


Yeah, if you're wanting a useful shadow-themed caster multiclass for a Monk, something like a Gloomstalker Ranger dip would be a better fit.

4 levels would get you an extra skill, Favored Enemy and Terrain, a Fighting Style, some 1st level spells, Darkvision (or increased Darkvision range), invisibility to enemy Darkvision, +WIS to Initiative, some additional bonuses on the first round of combat, and an ASI.

And it wouldn't be any more MAD, since both classes rely on DEX and WIS.

However, it would mean delaying your Monk abilities. Monks typically feel it a lot more than many other classes when they dip.


For a combo like that, I'd probably just consider Warlock over Sorcerer. The Sorcerer is best if you can maintain range, but that conflicts with a lot that the Monk wants to do. Rather, go Warlock 3 for a spammable Darkness and Hex, both which do wonders for the Shadow Monk.

You also can gain access to Shadow Blade if you really care for it.

All mechanically true within the game's rules, despite the strong thematic fit of "internal energy, shadow-linked" and "internal energy, shadow-linked" between the two subclasses.

Which to me qualifies it for the OP's category of "Worst theme-adhering Multiclasses".

[Man_Over_Game]

This makes me think I've not communicated my goal, since I want the individual builds/combos.
Other than the basic fact that entire premise is just because it sounded interesting to the mull over, my goal is to look at individual combinations and decide which are good or bad, with a focus on which are good or bad together, and particularly which ones have the actual archetypes work synergistically or complementary (as opposed to just complementary base classes, like paladin/warlock).

This got started by this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?580852-Coolest-Booming-Blade-combo)thread, and discussion about a Storm Sorcerer/Tempest Cleric build working together, and the realization that a Shadow Sorcerer/Gloomstalker would not work as well (despite the same level of thematic overlap) because its' powers overlapped, rather than complemented each other.

I think that what he's more looking for are things that normally would scream "unoptimized" at first glance, but has some underlying benefits that actually make it work out, within archetypes that are very thematic.

Another that I could see being relevant is the Samurai Fighter + Inquisitive Rogue. It'd be a sniper investigator. Grab Sharpshooter, take potshots at enemies at 400 feet and kill them in single hits after watching them for a round.

[Max_Killjoy]

I think that what he's more looking for are things that normally would scream "unoptimized" at first glance, but has some underlying benefits that actually make it work out, within archetypes that are very thematic.

From the opening post:


Anyone have any thoughts on things that work very well or very poorly?

(Emphasis added.)

Oddly, it almost seems like several of the "shadow" subclasses are good thematic and poor mechanical fits.

[Man_Over_Game]

Oddly, it almost seems like several of the "shadow" subclasses are good thematic and poor mechanical fits.

I have a solution for that, in my Prestige Options!


Medium of the Arcane
You can take the Sorcerer, using your Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Sorcerer features.
Requirement: You cannot have levels into Cleric or Druid. You must be able to cast Detect Magic.


Which fixes the problem of Gloomstalker Ranger and Shadow Monk not working with the Shadow Sorcerer. The Detect Magic requirement was tacked on as a power tax since Sorcerer already has so many synergies with martial combatants. Since few martial classes have access to Detect Magic, you either have to lose some offensive power from your Sorcerer to get access to it, or spend some kind of feat for Detect Magic (like Ritual Caster). In return, Monks gain access to Shield and ranged damage, and Rangers have more options to fuel their unique Ranger spells with.

[Max_Killjoy]

I have a solution for that, in my Prestige Options!


Which fixes the problem of Gloomstalker Ranger and Shadow Monk not working with the Shadow Sorcerer. The Detect Magic requirement was tacked on as a power tax since Sorcerer already has so many synergies with martial combatants. Since few martial classes have access to Detect Magic, you either have to lose some offensive power from your Sorcerer to get access to it, or spend some kind of feat for Detect Magic (like Ritual Caster).

That makes it sound like you have to take the Sorcerer level first, then get Detect Magic, then take the Monk level, and then swap out CHA for WIS on the Sorcerer casting stat...

If someone took the Monk level first, would you allow them to pick up Sorcerer if they took Detect Magic as one of their immediate spells known?

[Man_Over_Game]

That makes it sound like you have to take the Sorcerer level first, then get Detect Magic, then take the Monk level, and then swap out CHA for WIS on the Sorcerer casting stat...

If someone took the Monk level first, would you allow them to pick up Sorcerer if they took Detect Magic as one of their immediate spells known?

The requirements don't prevent you from taking levels into Sorcerer, it's just a requirement for your Sorcerer to be able to use Wisdom instead of Charisma. It's not that you're leveling into a Wisdom Sorcerer, it's that all Sorcerers have access to Wisdom or Charisma, but get disqualified for using Wisdom if they don't obey the requirements.


So if you're a Wisdom Sorcerer, and you take a level into Druid, you now have to use Charisma for your Sorcerer features. Alternatively, if you play as a Charisma Sorcerer, and you don't take Detect Magic, you can't use Wisdom until you obey the requirements (and gain some way of casting Detect Magic).

It goes into more detail in my Prestige Options homebrew in my signature. I've thoroughly gone through every one of the Options for the most OP builds I can create, and I've added restrictions to prevent those kinds of circumstances. Take a look, they're all pretty thematic and fun.

[Max_Killjoy]

The requirements don't prevent you from taking levels into Sorcerer, it's just a requirement for your Sorcerer to be able to use Wisdom instead of Charisma. It's not that you're leveling into a Wisdom Sorcerer, it's that all Sorcerers have access to Wisdom or Charisma, but get disqualified for using Wisdom if they don't obey the requirements.


So if you're a Wisdom Sorcerer, and you take a level into Druid, you now have to use Charisma for your Sorcerer features. It goes into more detail in my Prestige Options homebrew. Alternatively, if you play as a Charisma Sorcerer, and you don't take Detect Magic, you can't use Wisdom until you obey the requirements (and gain some way of casting Detect Magic).

I'll go check it out, so the thread can get back to its topic.

:smallsmile:

[Talionis]

Make a Shadow Sun Ninja from 3.5 with a Shadow Monk/ Light Cleric ?

[Agent-KI7KO]

If you can stretch your imagination so that the Glamour Bard makes itself a Fey of some kind when it uses a feature that projects an otherworldly beauty, then Archfey/Glamour has some synergy.

6 Glamour lets you cast Command without a spell slot as a bonus action for one minute a Long Rest, it auto succeeds on a Charmed target.

1 Archfey lets you Charm a 10ft cube around you (roll for save) once per Short Rest.

You can see where this is going.

[Finback]

Pallock, specifically, Vengeance/Celestial.

"BURNING JUSTICE."

[Kefvin]

I would be interested in seeing a LvL x LvL build guide for that.
Hhmmm.


I got you covered. Currently at level 9 and Naili is an absolute beast. He came online at lvl 6 but Ive had a good time throughout our campaign!

Battlebuckler:

Lvl 1:Rogue

Lvl2: Rogue
Cunning Action

Lvl3: R3
Swashbuckler
SA improved

Lvl 4: R3/F1
Fighting style: Duelist
Second wind

Lvl 5: R3/F2
Action surge

Lvl 6: R3/F3
Battlemaster maneuvers: Riposte, Goad, Precision
Artisan: brewer (Wine/beer)

Lvl 7: R3/F4
ASI +2 dex

Lvl 8: R3/F5
2 attacks

Lvl 9: R4/F5
ASi: whatever you need

Lvl 10: R5/F5
Uncanny dodge
SA improved