Anyone played both Padlock and pure Paladin? Please share your experience.

[Mitsu]

I wonder if Padlock is worth investing in. I was thinking either 6/14 or 11/9 but I wonder if it's worth over pure Paladin.

Maybe some of you had chance to play both of them so I would like to hear your experience with them?

[Pex]

It depends on campaign circumstances. The major weakness of paladins is having no decent range attack. Smiting is only melee, they're dumping Dex, and they have no Cantrips. You can have Dex based Paladins and get a little mileage from bows, but a Paladin who is not in melee is a Paladin trying to get into melee.

This weakness is likely on purpose but not a design flaw. Let other party members deal with range. As a Paladin if your lack of range attack does not make the Party the Suck because of it, i.e. your Action for the round doesn't do anything, then there isn't a problem. It's other party members' turn to shine and you'll shine soon enough in melee. However, if the Party is hurting by your lack of doing anything when a range attack is needed that is when you could consider multiclassing.

Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper can get you a range attack Cantrip, so multiclassing isn't absolutely necessary. You're still better being in melee and smiting, but at least you contribute something that's significant enough. Multiclassing gets you other perks for fun and effectiveness. For my Paladin I went Sorcerer. I cast Shield and Absorb Elements more than I have ever cast any Paladin spell, and they have saved the character's life. I went 4 levels for the metamagic and ASI. Quicken Spell helps with action economy for the few Paladin spells I do cast, and I also picked up some utilitarian spells to have when I need them and not care I don't cast them often because when I need them I NEED THEM - Expeditious Retreat, See Invisibility, Earthbind.

I have never regretted delaying my Paladin progression, but I have now returned to it. I'm still a warrior, not a spellcaster, so I don't need 3rd level Sorcerer spells. Haste is nice, but I don't need it. The 3rd level Paladin spells are more suitable for me as well as the Paladin class features I've waited long enough to get.

[stoutstien]

I've never played either one of these past level 5 but I DM for both of them p a lot. Some offered observations
Paladin- you could honestly never use a Divine smite feature and still have one of the most well-rounded single classes in the game. Between the auras, lay on hands, and extra attack it is never an unwelcome member of a party. I've actually have some brand new players that I literally just remove the Divine smite feature because they were so worried about the resource management and they had a blast.
I've seen a lot of players who are planning on a warlock or sorcerer dip but actually never do it because it's really hard to not take that next level of paladin.
And you can honestly get a lot of the benefits of a warlock dip with the magic initiate feat.
Padlock- role playing problem set aside, 1-3 lv of warlock addresses a lot of the weaknesses of the paladin. But I said earlier it's hard to know when to take it. Take an early you get access to a nice range attack and short rest slot but you delay your extra attack. After level 5 you start delaying your improved aruas and improved Divine smite.
I see a lot of people saying that pal/lock or pal/sorcerer are Superior to pure paladin and I just don't see it.
Sorcerer warlock multi-class on the other hand...

[BaconAwesome]

I've never played pure paladin, but went Padlock (Pal 1/ War 1 / Pal X) mostly because we're using point buy and I wanted the potential both to max my key stats and take some feats.

IMHO, pure paladin is a great class and is easier to come up with a consistent flavor - padlock has mechanical advantages, but not necessarily much over getting the pal levels earlier, and it's a little tougher to come up with a plausible story.

[Foxhound438]

one of the early characters that I made was a paladin/warlock, and I ended up at Pal 3/ Lock 3 before the campaign petered out because it was HotDQ which is a pretty bad adventure. As you can see, I made the mistake of multiclassing before level 5, but I had a pretty busted powerful sword that made up for it. My idea was that I felt that I had way too few spell slots across the day and would like a couple that can come back easier. Unfortunately the adventure quickly turns into a one fight per day type scenario, so I was really losing spells by the end of it.

By contrast, when I had a pure paladin at level 6, I had extra attack, more spell slots, and aura of protection, with another pretty good oath feature coming up next.

This of course works at almost any level split to about the same effect. So long as you aren't getting short rests, you're behind on spell slots that you can use, and the higher the level of the paladin the better features you're giving up, with any multiclass at all ultimately meaning you're out your oath capstone, which are generally very powerful effects.

You do get some cool options in warlock and it comes with a pretty mean ranged attack (paladin's typical worst trait), so it's not all bad. I just don't think those things are going to always be the best in the long run.

My conclusion: usually not worth it. Probably worth doing once or twice for the RP novelty or to get neat tricks that you want to try out, but overall pure pally is going to be a little more mechanically powerful where you need it to be.

[diplomancer]

It depends on campaign circumstances. The major weakness of paladins is having no decent range attack. Smiting is only melee, they're dumping Dex, and they have no Cantrips. You can have Dex based Paladins and get a little mileage from bows, but a Paladin who is not in melee is a Paladin trying to get into melee.

This weakness is likely on purpose but not a design flaw. Let other party members deal with range. As a Paladin if your lack of range attack does not make the Party the Suck because of it, i.e. your Action for the round doesn't do anything, then there isn't a problem. It's other party members' turn to shine and you'll shine soon enough in melee. However, if the Party is hurting by your lack of doing anything when a range attack is needed that is when you could consider multiclassing.

Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper can get you a range attack Cantrip, so multiclassing isn't absolutely necessary. You're still better being in melee and smiting, but at least you contribute something that's significant enough. Multiclassing gets you other perks for fun and effectiveness. For my Paladin I went Sorcerer. I cast Shield and Absorb Elements more than I have ever cast any Paladin spell, and they have saved the character's life. I went 4 levels for the metamagic and ASI. Quicken Spell helps with action economy for the few Paladin spells I do cast, and I also picked up some utilitarian spells to have when I need them and not care I don't cast them often because when I need them I NEED THEM - Expeditious Retreat, See Invisibility, Earthbind.

I have never regretted delaying my Paladin progression, but I have now returned to it. I'm still a warrior, not a spellcaster, so I don't need 3rd level Sorcerer spells. Haste is nice, but I don't need it. The 3rd level Paladin spells are more suitable for me as well as the Paladin class features I've waited long enough to get.

The find steed (and even more the Find Greater Steed) spells help you to get to melee range A LOT. If anyone asked me what is the best feat for a Paladin, after playing one to 20th level, I would say Mounted Combatant. Keep your mount alive at all times and you are a juggernaut of pain.

For that reason, if I were to do a Padlock, it would probably be something like Pal 13/Warlock X

[Mitsu]

When I was calculating slots, I turned out that mostly a Paladin 13/7 Warlock had the best ratio. Full 1-3rd level slots, 1 x 4th level Paladin slot and 2x 4th Level Warlock Slots. Giving 4/3/3/3/0 total vs 20 level Paladin who gets 4/3/3/3/2.

So I lose 2 x 5d8 Smites but I can effectively 4 x more 5d8 smites if I take 2 short rests. And I can also Crit and burn Eldritch Smite and Divine Smite for damage worth of 4 x 5d8 Smites. But since that 2 x 4th level slots would come on level 20 sadly I think it migh be best idea to do split like that:

6 Paladin/1 Hexblade/Paladin to 11/6 Warlock/2 Paladin. This way on Level 18 I have 2x short rest 4th level slots and then get one more on level 20. At least this is what I was thinking. And I get IDS on level 12.




I could also go 6 Paladin/1 Hexblade/13 Sorcerer. But what I don't like here is that I miss both Improved Divine Smite and Lifedrinker. But I will most likely have much more Smites to burn + Quicken Fireball/Lightning etc. Also if I take Divine Soul I can grab Spirit Guardians.

If I went 6/1/13 - would It hurt me a lot of not having IDS?

[EndEver]

When I was calculating slots, I turned out that mostly a Paladin 13/7 Warlock had the best ratio. Full 1-3rd level slots, 1 x 4th level Paladin slot and 2x 4th Level Warlock Slots. Giving 4/3/3/3/0 total vs 20 level Paladin who gets 4/3/3/3/2.

So I lose 2 x 5d8 Smites but I can effectively 4 x more 5d8 smites if I take 2 short rests. And I can also Crit and burn Eldritch Smite and Divine Smite for damage worth of 4 x 5d8 Smites. But since that 2 x 4th level slots would come on level 20 sadly I think it migh be best idea to do split like that:

6 Paladin/1 Hexblade/Paladin to 11/6 Warlock/2 Paladin. This way on Level 18 I have 2x short rest 4th level slots and then get one more on level 20. At least this is what I was thinking. And I get IDS on level 12.




I could also go 6 Paladin/1 Hexblade/13 Sorcerer. But what I don't like here is that I miss both Improved Divine Smite and Lifedrinker. But I will most likely have much more Smites to burn + Quicken Fireball/Lightning etc. Also if I take Divine Soul I can grab Spirit Guardians.

If I went 6/1/13 - would It hurt me a lot of not having IDS?

I’m playing around with a similar concept but more caster heavy. Pal 2/ Loc 2/ Sorc 16. Still reasearching it but I highly advise you looking at the Paladin Sorcerer Guide for Giantitp. It has a really good breakdown of the pros and cons of more Pal vs Less ( Pal 6-9 is usually the tanky suggestion)

There is also a really cool build called something like Super SAD Tank 5e found on Purplelizardman that suggests a really intriguing Heblade 1, Shadow Sorc 1, Paladin 18

[Benny89]

I could also go 6 Paladin/1 Hexblade/13 Sorcerer. But what I don't like here is that I miss both Improved Divine Smite and Lifedrinker. But I will most likely have much more Smites to burn + Quicken Fireball/Lightning etc. Also if I take Divine Soul I can grab Spirit Guardians.

I have a player at table who is currently playing 6 Paladin/1 Hexblade/5 Shadow Sorcerer. He chose Vengeance and the theme of character is very dark with Hex and Shadow Magic so I like it.

Now he took Variant Human and Polearm Master.

Overall I can assure you that he does not suffer so far from Lack of IDS. Thing is with PAM, Quicken Spells and ability to convert Sorc Points into slots he is very very action efficient. When he goes full Ham on boss, he just go classic VoE + Haste and Burn all slots on multi attacks. When he needs to he can Quicken Hold Person, or Lighting, or Fireball. When vs Mooks he can use 2 Sorc Points for Darkness + Shadow Darkvision combo to have AOE advantage on enemies. He has Shield and Elemental Resistance on reaction.

Meta Magic + Aura + SAD CHA + PAM + Quicken Spells + more slots make him really all-around beast. And OAs + BB or GFB (I allow it for War Caster) are really nasty.

And because he took PAM he doesn't need to waste Sorc Points on quicken cantrips and instead he can use them to cause some Pain. Divine Soul would be sick too because you can grab Spirit Guardians and Holy Weapon! Ow, and he will get max 7th level slot which is sick for Armor of Agathys: 35 damage if someone hit you, dam. And there also Blur, Blink etc.

I guess Paladin 6/Warlock 2/Sorcerer 12 would also be good because you could Quicken E-Blast, but you would run out of Sorc Points quickly and further delay 3rd level spells and ASI.

I don't know if Improved Divine Smites are worth all of that to be honest.

There is also infamous Paladin 6/Warlock 7/Sorcerer 7 build that allow you to abuse "coffelock" cheese and create a lot of slots for Smites. But it depends on DM if he will allow you to do it or not.

[Blood of Gaea]

I've played both a Vengeance Paladin 6/14 Hexblade as well as a 20 Conquest Paladin. When it came to straight damage output the multiclass was definitly on top, but Conquest has gnarly control and its capstone is absolutely nothing to joke about.

[Mitsu]

I have a player at table who is currently playing 6 Paladin/1 Hexblade/5 Shadow Sorcerer. He chose Vengeance and the theme of character is very dark with Hex and Shadow Magic so I like it.

Now he took Variant Human and Polearm Master.

Overall I can assure you that he does not suffer so far from Lack of IDS. Thing is with PAM, Quicken Spells and ability to convert Sorc Points into slots he is very very action efficient. When he goes full Ham on boss, he just go classic VoE + Haste and Burn all slots on multi attacks. When he needs to he can Quicken Hold Person, or Lighting, or Fireball. When vs Mooks he can use 2 Sorc Points for Darkness + Shadow Darkvision combo to have AOE advantage on enemies. He has Shield and Elemental Resistance on reaction.

Meta Magic + Aura + SAD CHA + PAM + Quicken Spells + more slots make him really all-around beast. And OAs + BB or GFB (I allow it for War Caster) are really nasty.

And because he took PAM he doesn't need to waste Sorc Points on quicken cantrips and instead he can use them to cause some Pain. Divine Soul would be sick too because you can grab Spirit Guardians and Holy Weapon! Ow, and he will get max 7th level slot which is sick for Armor of Agathys: 35 damage if someone hit you, dam. And there also Blur, Blink etc.

I guess Paladin 6/Warlock 2/Sorcerer 12 would also be good because you could Quicken E-Blast, but you would run out of Sorc Points quickly and further delay 3rd level spells and ASI.

I don't know if Improved Divine Smites are worth all of that to be honest.

There is also infamous Paladin 6/Warlock 7/Sorcerer 7 build that allow you to abuse "coffelock" cheese and create a lot of slots for Smites. But it depends on DM if he will allow you to do it or not.

Hm, I didn't think about PAM for 6/1/13 build. Sounds OP :D. PAM would definitely boost DPR and Burst while allowing to use Sorc Points on slots or big plays intead of wasting them for cantrips.

I like Divine Soul idea for Holy Weapon. PAM + Holy Weapon seems like nice combo. And Spirit Guardians could definitelly substitute for IDS (it's AOE damage) when needed.


I've played both a Vengeance Paladin 6/14 Hexblade as well as a 20 Conquest Paladin. When it came to straight damage output the multiclass was definitly on top, but Conquest has gnarly control and its capstone is absolutely nothing to joke about.

Really? It seems to me that 6/14 has really low slot amount. Can you elaborate more what made it deal as good damage?

[Blood of Gaea]

Really? It seems to me that 6/14 has really low slot amount. Can you elaborate more what made it deal as good damage?
You have a decent amount of smiting, but the consistent damage came from Great Weapon Master, Elven Accuracy, and Lifedrinker. Being a Warlock means you can give yourself advantage in most encounters (Shadow of Moil, or situationally Darkness). I actually didn't even have the Eldritch Smite invocation, the spell slots are honestly too useful to waste on that. Any smiting I did on crits was all from the few Paladin slots and would be saved for crits that happened at the correct timing.

Honestly, if you're purely looking for level 20 viability, a straight Hexblade might be the better choice, as you get Foresight at level 17 and then can more seriously consider smiting and offensive spell casting, which my build only rarely did. You would lose heavy armor and aura of protection though. A large part of the reason I took 6 Paladin first was for RP.

[Mitsu]

You have a decent amount of smiting, but the consistent damage came from Great Weapon Master, Elven Accuracy, and Lifedrinker. Being a Warlock means you can give yourself advantage in most encounters (Shadow of Moil, or situationally Darkness). I actually didn't even have the Eldritch Smite invocation, the spell slots are honestly too useful to waste on that. Any smiting I did on crits was all from the few Paladin slots and would be saved for crits that happened at the correct timing.

Honestly, if you're purely looking for level 20 viability, a straight Hexblade might be the better choice, as you get Foresight at level 17 and then can more seriously consider smiting and offensive spell casting, which my build only rarely did. You would lose heavy armor and aura of protection though. A large part of the reason I took 6 Paladin first was for RP.

Hm, I prefer Variant Human for extra feat and faster progression than Elven Accuracy. It delays 20 CHA and War Caster or RES (CON) too much for my taste.

Also I don't want to go GWM, I like to play with Shield as Paladin more :).

So I will probably go Sword n Board or as @Benny89 mentioned- PAM.

[Blood of Gaea]

Hm, I prefer Variant Human for extra feat and faster progression than Elven Accuracy. It delays 20 CHA and War Caster or RES (CON) too much for my taste.

Also I don't want to go GWM, I like to play with Shield as Paladin more :).

So I will probably go Sword n Board or as @Benny89 mentioned- PAM.
My Conquest was S&B and it worked out great.

Paladins with Aura of Protection get +Cha to all saving throws though, so you honestly don't need Resilient (Con).

[stoutstien]

My Conquest was S&B and it worked out great.

Paladins with Aura of Protection get +Cha to all saving throws though, so you honestly don't need Resilient (Con).
Resilient con on pally can mean you can't lose concentration due to damage at a pretty low lv. I like it more than PaM or great weapon master by far. Knowing you can get the full duration on a spell on a half caster is huge

[Blood of Gaea]

Resilient con on pally can mean you can't lose concentration due to damage at a pretty low lv. I like it more than PaM or great weapon master by far. Knowing you can get the full duration on a spell on a half caster is huge
It really depends on your Paladin and what they do. If you plan to have concentration up all the time, it's a pretty decent pick around level 8-12 when it starts being a decent bonus. If you're mostly going to be spending your slots on non-concentration spells and divine smite, it's not going to do you nearly enough good, especially when you're looking at like +2-3 from con, and +3-5 from Cha, nearly putting you at the same level as people with proficiency in Con.

[Trask]

I recommend pure paladin. Its a class that progresses very well and you feel real power gain with your spell levels, ever increasing lay on hands, and other oath abilities. I've always looked forward to the next level on my paladin.

That being said, a one level dip in hexblade is pretty stupidly good, basically letting you focus on Charisma alone. But I dont know that I see the benefit to a more developed multiclass, I think paladin is plenty good on its own.

[Finback]

I got to run a Vengeance Pal 5/Celestialock 3, before being horribly slain by a catoblepas*, and it was a lot of fun. The spells tied together well, he had low level ranged attacks to use while moving into melee, and with War Caster, he could use his reaction to cast some spells to ensure enemies *stayed* in melee range.


* I later looked up their stats (as I DM another group), and it turns out he totally misread the damage on a failed save, so my Pallock shouldn't have been insta-gibbed. But by then, my new PC was already introduced, so at least if we need a revenant angel to save the day, we can call on his ghost to aid us :D

[diplomancer]

I think the worst 2 levels in a Paladin (apart from the first level, but that one you can't escape if you wish to play one) are 14 and 15. Cleansing touch I used exactly once (to wonderful effect, true, by cancelling a Maze spell cast on my Paladin in the final fight of the campaign... I was just glad the DM didn't do it to my mount; as I had never used it before, the DM probably even forgot I had that ability).

The 15th level ability depends on the Oath; though the Ancients one which I was playing is ok, I was a half-orc, which took a bit of its benefit out. The Devotion one is either overpowered or almost useless, depending on the campaign; the Vengeance one has an interesting problem... it is only really good if you did not get PAM, and PAM works best on a Vengeance Paladin because of their 7th level ability.

So at 13th was the only time I considered not remaining a Paladin, but I couldn't really justify anything in character so decided to bite it.

Edit: Though, having said that, just looked at the 15th level abilities of the Xanathar Paladins, and they look to me considerably better.

[Benny89]

Hm, I prefer Variant Human for extra feat and faster progression than Elven Accuracy. It delays 20 CHA and War Caster or RES (CON) too much for my taste.

Also I don't want to go GWM, I like to play with Shield as Paladin more :).

So I will probably go Sword n Board or as @Benny89 mentioned- PAM.

Despite what I mentioned I still think PAM Is not worth on Sorcadin if you decide to go one (regardless if you take Hexblade dip or not). Reason is that you will be pretty busy with your Bonus Actions (quickening spells, converting slots to sorc points etc.) and PAM outside of using Smite really doesn't scale well without Improved Divine Smite. At least one-handed ones, with GWM it's different animal.

Also if you go Sword n Board you should really take a look at Shadow Blade. At 5th level slot it will deal 4d8 physic damage, which is like having IDS + 1d8 Longsword + Holy Weapon. Using that + Quickening BB with It will lead you to riddiculous damage done to enemy (with advantage from VoE). With PAM it would be waste of feat.

Shadow Blade has only one "weakness", you can't use it with Hex Warrior, so it's best on pure Sorcadin. But with Vuman you can achieve 20 in CHA and STR by the end of your career easy. Levels: 1- +2 STR, 4- +2 CHA, 10 - War Caster, 14 + 2 STR, 18 - +2 CHA. This way you will be able to use Shadow Blade and still having +5 Aura and War Caster.

If you go your Paladin 6/Hexblade 1/Sorcerer 13 you will be able to skip 2 ASI and focus on CHA having +5 to Aura and Hit, however best what you will be able to do is Holy Weapon if you take Divine Soul. It will depend if you find some nice magic sword (that has at least extra 2d6 or 1d8 of some damage) and cast Holy Weapon to have 4d8 damage total (assuming longsword) which then can match 5th slot Shadow Blade and allow you to stay SAD CHA. But it's risky as you rely on finding a magic item. You could also get Giant Belt which would boost your STR to 20s and allow you to wield Shadow Blade when needed.

But in short- I think sword and board is great on Sorcadin and better option than PAM.

My recommended builds would be (assuming Vuman):

Pala 6/Hexblade 1/13 Divine Sorc for SAD CHA, Holy Weapon and nice Sorc progression.

Pala 6/14 Shadow Sorcerer for Darkvision + potential Darkness combo. Sword and Board, abusing Shadow Blade.

Palad 6/12 Shadow Sorcerere/2 Fighter. For Action Surge + Shadow Blade Nova. First turn you cast DC + Shadow Blade. Second turn you go 2x attacks + Quicken BB + Action Surge 2x Attacks, attaching Smites to all of the, dealing ridiculous damage. And if you crit with Shadow Blade + Smite... ow man.

Pala 11/9 Hexblade for IDS and 2x 4th level slots. Here I would take PAM because of IDS.