Dragonborn Breath Weapon - 2019 Edition

[Magic Myrmidon]

There's been plenty of discussion on the dragonborn's breath weapon over the years. A quick google search finds plenty of threads from 3 years ago talking about how it's underpowered, no it's not, how do we fix it, it doesn't need fixing, etc.

Now, personally, I've come to a personal conclusion that it is a bit underpowered (as is the dragonborn race in general).

My question is, has there been a sort of "internet consensus" on the best way to improve the breath weapon?

Ideas I've had or seen:

Make it a bonus action
Make it an "extra attack".
Make it recharge
Scale it like a cantrip
Any combination of the above.


Personally, I think I might favor making it a bonus action. But I'm curious to know if the internet hivemind has determined the best way to make it balanced.

(Also, if that isn't enough to chew on, what would people think about giving Dragonborn their choice of one of the Xanathar feats for free?)

[Zanthy1]

Bonus action and short rest would be my ideal, with damage dice scaling as is but maybe getting more uses between short rests as well (to like a max of 3 per day?)

Also, I actually prefer the idea of making it a dragonborn specific feat, and given them an option of one of those at character creation. If I were doing that then I would probably just keep it as a bonus action with short rest recovery, scaling damage as it is now, without multiple uses between short short rests.

[Man_Over_Game]

Balance-wise, it's a slightly worse Burning Hands that scales slightly (+1d6 every 5 levels). Now, on the flipside, it DOES recharge on a Short Rest.

With a standard 2 Short Rests per day, that's 3 uses.


Making it a Bonus Action would be a very dumbfire style of approach. It'd just be extra damage. "Pick this race to do a generic 7 damage per short rest". It doesn't inspire strategy or fun.
Making it an Extra Attack option isn't terrible, except it kind of shuts out any option for the Dragonborn to be a caster.
Recharging on some kind of effect isn't terrible, but that's not much better, as its action economy is still not great for the damage it does do.
Scaling is something it does need to improve on, definitely.



One suggestion I propose is the option to cast Dragon's Breath on yourself as a Bonus Action, using the element of your draconic ancestry. The damage for it is special, dealing 1d6 damage plus 1d6 for every 3 of your levels. It refreshes on a Short Rest.

This makes it more accessible than Dragon's Breath (available at level 1), slightly weaker than Dragon's Breath (to balance the fact that you get it at level 1), more sustainable, and it scales better. This becomes a short-rest recharge version of Dragon's Breath by level 6 (when most races with higher casting spells get a level 2 spell by character level 5 that recharges on a Long Rest).

[Magic Myrmidon]

Bonus action and short rest would be my ideal, with damage dice scaling as is but maybe getting more uses between short rests as well (to like a max of 3 per day?)

Also, I actually prefer the idea of making it a dragonborn specific feat, and given them an option of one of those at character creation. If I were doing that then I would probably just keep it as a bonus action with short rest recovery, scaling damage as it is now, without multiple uses between short short rests.


I rather like this idea. Almost like giving Dragonborn subraces. "Feral Dragonborn" for claws and armor, "Spirited Dragonborn" for breath, "Dignified Dragonborn" for the terror.



The Dragon's Breath idea sounds more complicated than it needs to be, honestly. I guess it's basically a racial spell, though.

[MaxWilson]

Making it a Bonus Action would be a very dumbfire style of approach. It'd just be extra damage. "Pick this race to do a generic 7 damage per short rest". It doesn't inspire strategy or fun.

I can think of some fun things to do with it. E.g. run into the middle of a group of orcs, Dodging to mostly avoid opportunity attacks, and breath fire all over the biggest cluster (hopefully 4 or 5 orcs), to draw as much fire as possible so the orcs attack you instead of the rest of your team.

Furthermore, there's not necessarily anything wrong with simple mechanics. "Pick this race to breath fire pretty frequently" isn't a bad promise at all, and making it a bonus action means that it's no longer as much of a trap where you wound up hurting yourself by relying on your fire breath instead of e.g. your greataxe. Players who like lots of tactical breadth and rich complicated options will still avoid it in favor of e.g. Polearm Master humans, but that guy who isn't invested in numbers and just wants to smash things will have even more doing so while breathing fire.

So count me as a vote in favor of "bonus action," and for thematic and gameplay reasons I'd actually make it "bonus action, recharge on a 5-6 just like a real dragon." The type of player who will enjoy the dragonborn is the same type of player who's likely to enjoy rolling dice every round to see if he gets to make another breath attack.

[Man_Over_Game]

The Dragon's Breath idea sounds more complicated than it needs to be, honestly. I guess it's basically a racial spell, though.

I mean, is that any more complicated than:

"Pick your dragon type. You get an element, a type, and a saving throw based on the dragon type you chose based on a chart specific to your choice. The saving throw DC is equal to 8 + Con + Proficiency, and it deals 2d6 damage + 1d6 damage for every 5 levels past level 1."

--VS--

"Pick your dragon type. You can cast Dragon's Breath on yourself as a bonus action, using the element of your dragon type. Your spellcasting modifier is your Constitution. Rather than its normal damage, it deals 1d6 damage + 1d6 damage for every 3 of your levels."

[Magic Myrmidon]

I mean, is that any more complicated than:

"Pick your dragon type. You get an element, a type, and a saving throw based on the dragon type you chose based on a chart specific to your choice. The saving throw DC is equal to 8 + Con + Proficiency, and it deals 2d6 damage + 1d6 damage for every 5 levels past level 1."

--VS--

"Pick your dragon type. You can cast Dragon's Breath on yourself as a bonus action, using the element of your dragon type. Your spellcasting modifier is your Constitution. Rather than its normal damage, it deals 1d6 damage + 1d6 damage for every 3 of your levels."

Fair. I guess I mainly don't want to have to look up a spell to see the specifics of my dragon breath. Also, I think I'd like my dragon breath to be a special thing by being as close to a dragon as you can get, rather than just getting a spell that emulates it.

But it might just be a different way to implement something similar. Not saying it's a bad way to do it, at all.

[MaxWilson]

I mean, is that any more complicated than:

"Pick your dragon type. You get an element, a type, and a saving throw based on the dragon type you chose based on a chart specific to your choice. The saving throw DC is equal to 8 + Con + Proficiency, and it deals 2d6 damage + 1d6 damage for every 5 levels past level 1."

--VS--

"Pick your dragon type. You can cast Dragon's Breath on yourself as a bonus action, using the element of your dragon type. Your spellcasting modifier is your Constitution. Rather than its normal damage, it deals 1d6 damage + 1d6 damage for every 3 of your levels."

Yes, it is--the new version is significantly more complicated. You've added a reference to a spell in a different rulebook (Dragon's Breath) plus an exception ("as a bonus action", "rather than its normal damage"), and now the dragonborn player has to understand the rules for spellcasting and concentration.

[MagneticKitty]

I do like the idea of each color getting a different +1 (in place of charisma) that follows after their dragon heritage, just add it to the table. I'll have to dig out my homebrew fix proposed and additional dragon turtle dragonborn option

[TyGuy]

One could add other features but I like the idea of the breath weapon being the race's "thing" and just beefing that up. Here's how I would do so without over-complicating it and sticking true to the current theme.

Start out with it as written.
@ level 3 it becomes a bonus action.
@ level __ (not sure, likely 5-7) the character gets two charges per rest, and can choose to expend both charges at once to increase the area from 15' cone to 20' cone or 5'x30' line to 10'x30' line.

[Chronos]

The breath weapon is already the race's "thing". Literally all they get is +2/+1 to a couple of abilities (which is what most races get), resistance to their element, and their breath weapon. They don't even get darkvision. And they also have to put up with being constantly mistaken for monsters. Compare to drow, for instance, which get almost the same ability scores (combat stat and Cha), a skill proficiency, a cantrip, a first-level spell once per day, a second-level spell once per day, improved darkvision, advantage on some saves, trance, and a few weapon proficiencies. A first-level spell three times a day and a resistance really doesn't stack up to that.

[Wryte]

I feel like Dragon Breath's problem isn't that it's too weak, and more that it's their only racial feature (well, and the associated resistance, but that's really not very exciting on its own). There's no way that it can't feel either too weak to make up for the number of traits other races get all by itself, or way too strong for an individual trait. Dragon Breath doesn't need to be fixed, it needs to not have the race's entire mechanical identity squatting on its lonesome shoulders.

As far as simple fixes go, I give Dragonborn players at my table the Dragon Hide feat from Xanathar's (minus the ASI) as part of their standard racial trait package, and I've never had one complain about feeling underpowered next to any of the other races at the table.

[Misterwhisper]

The issue with Dragonborn is not the dragon breath, that is just kind of flavor.

The issue is their lack of anything else good.

Their stats are nothing special.
2 str which is very common, like very common.
1 charisma, a good stat but the issue is there are only a select few classes that care about str and cha.

Paladin is the first one that is easy to see but other races do it better.

Well that is about it honestly.

Breath weapon is cool but rather weak.
Resistance is great.

The issue is do you pick the most common damage element of fire to get the most of resistance but your breath is also resisted the most, or pick something almost never resisted but then your own resistance never comes up.

That is it. That’s all they get.

However look at half elf.

Instead of 2 str and 1 cha, you get 2 cha and 1 str if you want and another stat where ever.

Actually gets darkvision, Unlike a race of dragon people when all other draconian types get it.

2 skill training of your choice as opposed to Dragonborn who get nothing.

Elven immunities which are pretty nice.

Also to a lesser extent Tritons are superior.

Dragonborn are only good at like a small handful of specific builds but even at those builds other races are completely superior.

Don’t fix the breath weapon, fix the race by adding more abilities.

[stoutstien]

-allow them to use cone/line every time they use it.
-increase cone/line size by 5feet at 6, 11, and 14
Add a floating +1 stat to the race or maybe immunity to the heritage damage type vs resistance?

[thoroughlyS]

I've tackled this question a few times over the years. Taken as a whole, the race feels underdeveloped. Many other races have a long history with D&D and have various features which reflect a kind of assumed cultural identity (e.g. dwarves get a tool proficiency, forest gnomes can speak to animals). Dragonborn are really bare-bones, having only two traits, both of which are combat oriented. This doesn't tell us anything about their society or practices. But that isn't really the point of this thread.

The biggest issue with the breath weapon is that it is the the "main" trait of the race, so you would expect it to remain relevant over the entire course of a campaign. But it doesn't. Its effectiveness sharply drops after reaching Tier 2. The fix I've seen most often is to change it to a bonus action, but I agree with Man_Over_Game that it just incentivizes throwing it out whenever you can. I prefer to give it the same kind of wording as grappling or shoving—if you can make multiple attacks, this replaces one of them. True, this helps martial characters more, but that was already the direction the race leaned in the first place. And nothing is stopping you from making a dragonborn bard or warlock.

I've also toyed pretty heavily with the idea of dragonborn subracesaspects in another thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?572365-Dragonborn-Rework)

[Man_Over_Game]

Don’t fix the breath weapon, fix the race by adding more abilities.

One thing I like to do is to adjust the racial bonuses.

Make it +1 to Constitution, then +2 Charisma for a Metallic (Good) Dragon or +2 Strength for a Chromatic (Evil) Dragon, which adds more diversity. You're no longer a generic Dragonborn, but a Bronze Dragonborn of a noble and honorable lineage! It also makes the stats a bit easier to play around, since there are few classes that can utilize both Strength and Charisma.

[Kadesh]

If there has been plenty of discussion already on it, and you are offering nothing further, what is the point in remaking the thread?

[opaopajr]

One thing I like to do is to adjust the racial bonuses.

Make it +1 to Constitution, then +2 Charisma for a Metallic (Good) Dragon or +2 Strength for a Chromatic (Evil) Dragon, which adds more diversity. You're no longer a generic Dragonborn, but a Bronze Dragonborn of a noble and honorable lineage! It also makes the stats a bit easier to play around, since there are few classes that can utilize both Strength and Charisma.

That's a cleaner, more meaningful choice-filled solution. :smallsmile:

(I'd also tamp down on Elf & Half-Elf benefits because it looks like another "be generous to the elves" edition. But game companies now know what gets those type of "elves uber-alles!" players sitting at the table. :smallamused: (But am I joking? Am I? :smalltongue:) )

[Skylivedk]

One thing I like to do is to adjust the racial bonuses.

Make it +1 to Constitution, then +2 Charisma for a Metallic (Good) Dragon or +2 Strength for a Chromatic (Evil) Dragon, which adds more diversity. You're no longer a generic Dragonborn, but a Bronze Dragonborn of a noble and honorable lineage! It also makes the stats a bit easier to play around, since there are few classes that can utilize both Strength and Charisma.

I like this. We've run with bonus action and darkvision so far. Not broken. Dragonborn has been picked once across 4 or 5 campaigns (and probably 25+ characters). But that's only in our house ruled campaigns.

[DarkKnightJin]

I feel like Dragon Breath's problem isn't that it's too weak, and more that it's their only racial feature (well, and the associated resistance, but that's really not very exciting on its own). There's no way that it can't feel either too weak to make up for the number of traits other races get all by itself, or way too strong for an individual trait. Dragon Breath doesn't need to be fixed, it needs to not have the race's entire mechanical identity squatting on its lonesome shoulders.

As far as simple fixes go, I give Dragonborn players at my table the Dragon Hide feat from Xanathar's (minus the ASI) as part of their standard racial trait package, and I've never had one complain about feeling underpowered next to any of the other races at the table.

That's something that I'd roll into the baseline Dragonborn traits as well, to give them a more 'dragony' feel.
I might also give them the recharge of their Breath Weapon on a 6 of a d6, but that's if they want to actually use the breath instead of whatever else they can do on their turn.

[TripleD]

Alternatively, cut out damage altogether.

Instead model it on Prestidigitation. Allow it to create a small, harmless effect based on the type of Dragonborn. Reds/Golds can light a torch or start a small fire. Blacks can spit a glob of acid that can burn through cloth or a rope in a few minutes. Silvers can freeze a small bowl or extinguish a flame. And so on. These all take an action but can be used an unlimited number of times.

If someone wants a “combat breath” ability make it a feat. The other ideas here can apply to it then.

[Angelalex242]

How to make Dragonborn awesome?

Up damage dice to d12s.
Recharge on a 6 like a real dragon.
It's now a bonus action.
Resistance becomes immunity.

Have a nice day.

They still get no frills and no extras, but...

[MagneticKitty]

I do like the idea of picking stuff via subclass. Maybe...

base dragonborn
plus +1 con
Type resistance
firebolt reflavored (keyed to chosen element from draconic ancestry), action, but scales better.
(Or original but bonus action and recharges at initiative roll?)

subraces:

Feral: has a tail, hunched stature, lays eggs, reptilian (not a mammal), retractable claws, horns, back ridges, wild look, slitted (cat) eyes, noticeable fangs, digigrade (walks on toes), taller
+2 str
dragon hide feat (-stats)
darkvision

Regal: mammal, more upright, shorter blunt horns, plantigrade (flatfoot like a human), human height range, body fits normal clothing, humanoid eyes.
+2 cha
dragon fear feat (-stats) 1 per any rest
1 charisma prof

Winged: reptilian, half between feral and regal in looks characteristics from either, short (dwarf height), light frame.
Part urd (winged kobold)?
+2 dex
featherfall on self at will
Don't need to run for running jumps
Dragon wings feat @ lv 5

[CTurbo]

How to make Dragonborn awesome?

Up damage dice to d12s.
Recharge on a 6 like a real dragon.
It's now a bonus action.
Resistance becomes immunity.

Have a nice day.

They still get no frills and no extras, but...


Resistance becoming immunity is the only problem I have with this. The rest sounds good.

Instead of d12s, I'd keep it d6s and just add way more of them. Maybe you start with 1d6 at level 1, and every other level you gain another like sneak attack topping out at 10d6 at level 19. Done.

I'm all for making it far more powerful than it already is.

[Wryte]

Resistance becoming immunity is the only problem I have with this. The rest sounds good.

Instead of d12s, I'd keep it d6s and just add way more of them. Maybe you start with 1d6 at level 1, and every other level you gain another like sneak attack topping out at 10d6 at level 19. Done.

I'm all for making it far more powerful than it already is.

Then you've just gone and made it overpowered. Whether based on d12s or d6s, this approach just hands Dragonborn a significant chunk of free damage that can potentially be used multiple turns in a row with lucky recharge rolls.

I go back to my earlier point. It's not that Breath Weapon is underpowered, it's that it's alone. Breath Weapon is on par with other 1/rest racial traits, the problem is that all the races that have those other 1/rest traits also have other traits contributing to their character when they're not using that one. Breath Weapon doesn't need to be buffed, Dragonborn just plain need more racial traits.

Someone else mentioned that Breath Weapon and Resistance being universally applicable also has the effect of reducing Dragonborn to solely their ASIs during character creation, and I want to echo that here. One of the fun things about race choice is finding ways to make racial traits beyond the ASI work in conjunction with the class you're choosing. Yeah, that +2 Strength from a Mountain Dwarf isn't going to benefit a normal wizard, but with the bonus weapon and armor proficiencies, I can do something off-the-wall like a necromancer who wades into melee alongside her undead army. Yeah, that Stout Halfling doesn't have the precious Strength bonus for a barbarian, but Halfling Nimbleness combined with the Eagle Totem means I can just walk through hordes of orcs without taking a scratch.

Dragonborn don't have anything like that. Breath Weapon and Resistance don't have any especially interesting interactions with any class mechanics. They're fine traits for pretty much anyone, which means there's not many ways to apply them creatively. By focusing on buffing Breath Weapon to make a single trait feel equal to three or four traits by itself, not only are you making that trait overpowered, you're also keeping it boring.

[Angelalex242]

Overpowered is a relative term.

It's not overpowered until more people would take dragonborn than variant human or half elf.

[Chronos]

I like the idea of giving them the natural armor and claws of the Dragon Hide feat, plus darkvision. It's still not overpowered, but it feels appropriate, and can be made to work with class abilities.

[MThurston]

There's been plenty of discussion on the dragonborn's breath weapon over the years. A quick google search finds plenty of threads from 3 years ago talking about how it's underpowered, no it's not, how do we fix it, it doesn't need fixing, etc.

Now, personally, I've come to a personal conclusion that it is a bit underpowered (as is the dragonborn race in general).

My question is, has there been a sort of "internet consensus" on the best way to improve the breath weapon?

Ideas I've had or seen:

Make it a bonus action
Make it an "extra attack".
Make it recharge
Scale it like a cantrip
Any combination of the above.


Personally, I think I might favor making it a bonus action. But I'm curious to know if the internet hivemind has determined the best way to make it balanced.

(Also, if that isn't enough to chew on, what would people think about giving Dragonborn their choice of one of the Xanathar feats for free?)

It is far from underpowered. I still have no idea why people complain about this. It's a leveling racial ability and comes back after a short rest.

A racial ability should not be a main attack.

If you put 6 PC's with 11 HP's in the template you can drop them all with a roll of 12. That isn't underpowered.

Dragonborn should have Darkvision. I think it is silly that they do not.

[Kadesh]

It is far from underpowered. I still have no idea why people complain about this. It's a leveling racial ability and comes back after a short rest.

A racial ability should not be a main attack.

If you put 6 PC's with 11 HP's in the template you can drop them all with a roll of 12. That isn't underpowered.

Dragonborn should have Darkvision. I think it is silly that they do not.
I'm unsure if you're being serious or taking the mick here. I've seen you post before, which is why, if it were anyone else, I'd assume they were being sarcastic.

[MThurston]

I'm unsure if you're being serious or taking the mick here. I've seen you post before, which is why, if it were anyone else, I'd assume they were being sarcastic.

LOL. Far from sarcastic. Dragonborn are only missing Darkvision. Everything else is fine.

First level Dragonborn wizard.

Cast Burning hands. 3d6 damage.
Bonus Action Breath weapon the same group for 2d6 damage.

5d6 Damage in one turn at first level.

If you think this isn't overpowered then there is something wrong with you. Oh and lets look at save for half damage on those attacks. 17 damage on average and 8 on saving both effects. That pretty much ends the fight. Have a group of 5 Dragon born spell casters and you break the game.

[Aett_Thorn]

LOL. Far from sarcastic. Dragonborn are only missing Darkvision. Everything else is fine.

First level Dragonborn wizard.

Cast Burning hands. 3d6 damage.
Bonus Action Breath weapon the same group for 2d6 damage.

5d6 Damage in one turn at first level.

If you think this isn't overpowered then there is something wrong with you. Oh and lets look at save for half damage on those attacks. 17 damage on average and 8 on saving both effects. That pretty much ends the fight. Have a group of 5 Dragon born spell casters and you break the game.

It’s overpower at level 1, and then quickly drops off past that, becoming nearly useless past level 5. Also, you’re competing based on a hypothetical change, not how it is now. As it is now, you can do either the 3d6 burning hands, OR the 2d6 breath weapon. Sure the breath weapon comes back on a short rest, but on any given turn, it’s weaker than the spell. That is the problem. As an action, it’s almost always better to do anything else.

[Aett_Thorn]

Quite honestly, I son't think that the breath weapon is the problem, but that that is all you get, plus a resistance. I've often thought that they did a fairly shoddy job of making the various subraces different from each other. Here is how I would have done the Dragonborn.

Dragonborn:

Ability Score Increase: +1 to Str, +1 to Cha

Age/Alignment/Size/Speed: the same

Draconic Ancestry: You have draconic ancestry. Choose one type of dragon from the Draconic Ancestry table. Your additional ability score increase, breath weapon, damage resistance, and bonus proficiency are determined by the dragon type, as shown in the table. Breathe weapon and resistance stay the same, but you also get the following.

Black Dragon - +1 to Con, Prof in Stealth
Blue Dragon - +1 Con, Prof in Perception
Green Dragon: +1 to Int, Prof in Deception
Red Dragon: +1 to Str, Prof in Intimidation
White Dragon: +1 to Con, Prof in Survival
Gold Dragon: +1 to Cha, Prof in Persuasion
Silver Dragon: +1 to Wis, Prof in Arcana
Brass Dragon: +1 to Cha, Prof in History
Bronze Dragon: +1 to Int, Prof in Insight
Copper: +1 to Dex, Prof in Deception (or sleight of hand?)

In addition, you get to choose one feature from the following list:

Draconic Weapons: Your teethe and claws are longer than usual, allowing you to make natural weapon attacks dealing 1d6 + Str piercing damage

Dragon Scales: Your scales are harder than usual, giving you a natural armor class of 13 + Dex

Dragon Eyes: Your eyes are more perceptive than usual, giving you Darkvision out to a range of 60'

[Kadesh]

LOL. Far from sarcastic. Dragonborn are only missing Darkvision. Everything else is fine.

First level Dragonborn wizard.

Cast Burning hands. 3d6 damage.
Bonus Action Breath weapon the same group for 2d6 damage.

5d6 Damage in one turn at first level.

If you think this isn't overpowered then there is something wrong with you. Oh and lets look at save for half damage on those attacks. 17 damage on average and 8 on saving both effects. That pretty much ends the fight. Have a group of 5 Dragon born spell casters and you break the game.

This amuses me. Dragonborn, so +2 Str and +1 Cha, ye? Fantastic Wizard stats, wouldn't you agree? And using 2 actions to cast Burning Hands and Breath Weapon (Bonus Action, what?), on a group of individuals in a perfect 15ft cone formation. And the original, was under the assumption that you roll max on your damage dice to kill, and that they fail the save (the save whose DC isn't boosted by their stats, for example).

Can you please start being serious about the discussion at least?

[JNAProductions]

The Breath Weapon is good... At level 1, against groups of foes.

It starts falling off real quick.

Also, the odds of killing 6 PCs who all have a -1 to their Dex save against a DC of 12 (the max you can get), 11 HP, and are conveniently in perfect cone formation is...

Less than 1%. Exact odds are about .63%.

So, under absolutely PERFECT circumstances (none of them have resistance to the damage, such as from being a Tiefling, they all have a penalty to the save, they arranged themselves perfectly) your odds of dealing with them all is incredibly poor. Hell, you have a greater than 90% chance of not killing ANY of them, just by rolling a 10 or less on damage!

Edit: Just for fun, let's check the WORST possible odds, that still TECHNICALLY has a chance of working!

You're an 8 Con Dragonborn, giving you a save DC of 9.
You're breathing on six VHuman Rogues with 14 Con, 16 Dex, and the Tough feat, giving them +5 to Dex saves and 12 HP.

You have...

.000032% chance of killing them!

[MThurston]

It’s overpower at level 1, and then quickly drops off past that, becoming nearly useless past level 5. Also, you’re competing based on a hypothetical change, not how it is now. As it is now, you can do either the 3d6 burning hands, OR the 2d6 breath weapon. Sure the breath weapon comes back on a short rest, but on any given turn, it’s weaker than the spell. That is the problem. As an action, it’s almost always better to do anything else.

Thinking that a racial ability should be as good as a spell is over powered.

Humans get a +1 to stats. Should that go up as you level?

[MThurston]

This amuses me. Dragonborn, so +2 Str and +1 Cha, ye? Fantastic Wizard stats, wouldn't you agree? And using 2 actions to cast Burning Hands and Breath Weapon (Bonus Action, what?), on a group of individuals in a perfect 15ft cone formation. And the original, was under the assumption that you roll max on your damage dice to kill, and that they fail the save (the save whose DC isn't boosted by their stats, for example).

Can you please start being serious about the discussion at least?

SMH.

5d6 damage is 30 points.

Half of that is 15.

I'm 100% spot on.

[Kadesh]

SMH.

5d6 damage is 30 points.

Half of that is 15.

I'm 100% spot on.

Your original post said "if you roll 2d6 and deal 12 damage, you'll kill 6 people". That's rolling max. And your second post had you using 2 actions. That's a 1/36 chance of you roll that. Not to mention them all failing the Dex Save (with the DC set by a stat that isn't boosted by your race). Not to mention that they even roll up into a position where you can get 6 people into a 6 square template. If you think that's OP (to burn 1/3 of your daily resources) to kill 6 CR 1/2 creatures, then sure. I'd also say that that was about average. Have you played the game, or just posted on forums?


Thinking that a racial ability should be as good as a spell is over powered.

Humans get a +1 to stats. Should that go up as you level?
(nobody plays non vhumans anyway)

[Sigreid]

What could be done is have it be the actual dragon type breath weapon, like a full dragon and each level tier is an age category equivalent.

[MThurston]

Your original post said "if you roll 2d6 and deal 12 damage, you'll kill 6 people". That's rolling max. And your second post had you using 2 actions. That's a 1/36 chance of you roll that. Not to mention them all failing the Dex Save (with the DC set by a stat that isn't boosted by your race). Not to mention that they even roll up into a position where you can get 6 people into a 6 square template. If you think that's OP (to burn 1/3 of your daily resources) to kill 6 CR 1/2 creatures, then sure. I'd also say that that was about average. Have you played the game, or just posted on forums?


(nobody plays non vhumans anyway)

Yes, if you rolled 12. You have a 1/36 chance. It's not that bad of a chance.

I play one right now as a Hexblade and I just played another human as a fighter in another game. So yes, people still play them.

[Aett_Thorn]

Thinking that a racial ability should be as good as a spell is over powered.

Humans get a +1 to stats. Should that go up as you level?

Ummm...you know that other races get ACTUAL SPELLS as racial features, right? Some even get multiple. And they usually get other features on top of that, including resistances.

[JNAProductions]

MThurston, there's a difference between a stat boost (a wholly passive feature) and a breath weapon (an ACTIVE feature).

A passive feature, like a stat boost, or Darkvision, doesn't need to scale. You're not giving up anything else to use it in an encounter.

An active feature has to remain useful against other actions-for combat, that means it's gotta scale. Otherwise, it becomes useless relative to your other actions, or at least needlessly niche.

[Yunru]

Thinking that a racial ability should be as good as a spell is over powered.
Lolwhut. Considering several racial abilities are literally "you get spells", that's a very bold statement.

[stoutstien]

SMH.

5d6 damage is 30 points.

Half of that is 15.

I'm 100% spot on.
Good thing everybody only plays at level one when this works..

No one is saying it's not good at first. We are saying it's the only feature that dragonborn get and it scale worse than a cantrip which is an at-will ablity.
You are correct moving the breath to bonus action will make it better at low lvs but won't address the scaling issue but saying it's fine as written is faulty logic.
In fact even if the cantrip went off CON still it would out preform the breath from the get go.

[MThurston]

MThurston, there's a difference between a stat boost (a wholly passive feature) and a breath weapon (an ACTIVE feature).

A passive feature, like a stat boost, or Darkvision, doesn't need to scale. You're not giving up anything else to use it in an encounter.

An active feature has to remain useful against other actions-for combat, that means it's gotta scale. Otherwise, it becomes useless relative to your other actions, or at least needlessly niche.

Getting +3 to stats plus a breath weapon that levels does not equal +6 to stats.

If you make the breath weapon a bonus action use and more damage, then everyone will play Dragonborn.

[JNAProductions]

Getting +3 to stats plus a breath weapon that levels does not equal +6 to stats.

If you make the breath weapon a bonus action use and more damage, then everyone will play Dragonborn.

I highly doubt that.

And you're comparing them to Regular Humans-another race generally considered pretty bad.

[Yunru]

The only way to make it not useless is to make it at-will.
Sure, some say they shouldn't be able to use it over and over again, but why not? The High Elf can with their cantrip, the [insert race with natural weapons] can with their natural weapons, etc.

If it's not at-will, then it's not worth focusing on, because to bring it up to par is to not advance your attacks for every other round.

[MThurston]

Good thing everybody only plays at level one when this works..

No one is saying it's not good at first. We are saying it's the only feature that dragonborn get and it scale worse than a cantrip which is an at-will ablity.
You are correct moving the breath to bonus action will make it better at low lvs but won't address the scaling issue but saying it's fine as written is faulty logic.
In fact even if the cantrip went off CON still it would out preform the breath from the get go.

It's a racial ability, it shouldn't be better than a spell.

Yes hellish rebuke is a spell for a race and it scales. It's also a reaction which makes it really nice.

But complaining that one race gets something better doesn't mean that breath weapons need to be better.

Breath Weapon is good for a good amount of things and it refreshes after a short rest. Its a good ability. Way better than a stat bump.

Standard array is 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15. So humans start with 9, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16. That gives you really two stats that will give you a bonus +1.

With Dragonborn. One at +2 and a +1 can give you another +1 to two stats.

So anything extra for Dragonborn is gold (Resistance to Breath Weapon type.

So it's like this:

Human = +1 stat bump to two stats.
Dragonborn = +1 stat bump to two stats, Breath Weapon that scales, resistance to the type of breath weapon

And I really do not like the I can't be a spell caster as a dragon born. Str and Cha bonus help with Paladins, Bards and Warlocks.

Paladin 16 Str, 16 Cha
Bard 16 Cha, 10 Str, 14 Dex
Warlock 16 Cha, 10 Str, 14 Dex, Hexblade with a shield and you have a really good AC and +3 to attack and damage.

[MThurston]

The only way to make it not useless is to make it at-will.
Sure, some say they shouldn't be able to use it over and over again, but why not? The High Elf can with their cantrip, the [insert race with natural weapons] can with their natural weapons, etc.

If it's not at-will, then it's not worth focusing on, because to bring it up to par is to not advance your attacks for every other round.

At will would be way overpowered.

[Willie the Duck]

Furthermore, there's not necessarily anything wrong with simple mechanics. "Pick this race to breath fire pretty frequently" isn't a bad promise at all, and making it a bonus action means that it's no longer as much of a trap where you wound up hurting yourself by relying on your fire breath instead of e.g. your greataxe. Players who like lots of tactical breadth and rich complicated options will still avoid it in favor of e.g. Polearm Master humans, but that guy who isn't invested in numbers and just wants to smash things will have even more doing so while breathing fire.

Thematically, I think of Dragonborn as being good Paladins or EK/War Clerics (obviously not the best stat lineup for this one). Both of those are likely to have some uses for bonus actions, such that they might not pick a feat lineup that gives every-round bonus actions. Thus they would have free bonus actions where finding another thing to put in the option queue would be appreciated.


Your original post said "if you roll 2d6 and deal 12 damage, you'll kill 6 people". That's rolling max. And your second post had you using 2 actions. That's a 1/36 chance of you roll that. Not to mention them all failing the Dex Save (with the DC set by a stat that isn't boosted by your race). Not to mention that they even roll up into a position where you can get 6 people into a 6 square template. If you think that's OP (to burn 1/3 of your daily resources) to kill 6 CR 1/2 creatures, then sure. I'd also say that that was about average. Have you played the game, or just posted on forums?

I think you (and anyone else) who wants to engage with MThurston on this subject should familiarize themselves with this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?572749-how-would-you-fix-dragonborns-breath-weapon/page5&highlight=Dragonborn), and decide whether you believe in rewarding such behavior.

[Aett_Thorn]

I think you (and anyone else) who wants to engage with MThurston on this subject should familiarize themselves with this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?572749-how-would-you-fix-dragonborns-breath-weapon/page5&highlight=Dragonborn), ad decide whether you believe in rewarding such behavior.

Oh, I know. He’s arguing in bad faith because he believes that any improvement to Dragonborns is because that people want them to be OP and to really play as dragons, which isn’t the case that anyone is making. Dragonborn are the weakest core race. It doesn’t make them unplayable, just weak. Suggestions to make them better don’t automatically make them OP. They might, given the suggestion, but not automatically.

[stoutstien]

Getting +3 to stats plus a breath weapon that levels does not equal +6 to stats.

If you make the breath weapon a bonus action use and more damage, then everyone will play Dragonborn.
I don't want a project so I'm going to ask this very straightforward. Do the tables you play at have an irrational fear of players having any damage capabilities at low levels?
Your stance on things like the breath of a dragonborn or two weapon fighting is always, "it will make them better it'll make them too good and then everybody will want them." And your defense is always based around some arbitrary low-level character doing so much damage he breaks the game. Unlike a wizard casting sleep or so something else that can shut down an encounter in one action. Low-level and 5th editions are very swingy.
No one cares about the damage of a level 1 character. Sure the dragonborn could use its breath and wipe out four kolbolds. Next fight the same player is killed by four identical kobolds with just ok damage rolls in one round!!! Do We need to Nerf kolbolds because they can do too much damage? or if you look at the XP chart they pretty much want players to get to level 3 really quickly so they can actually start playing their class. almost every edition has some kind of heath bloat in 5th edition is no different. if you don't have a decent con it feels like if you trip and land on your face you can die from fall damage.

[stoutstien]

Thematically, I think of Dragonborn as being good Paladins or EK/War Clerics (obviously not the best stat lineup for this one). Both of those are likely to have some uses for bonus actions, such that they might not pick a feat lineup that gives every-round bonus actions. Thus they would have free bonus actions where finding another thing to put in the option queue would be appreciated.



I think you (and anyone else) who wants to engage with MThurston on this subject should familiarize themselves with this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?572749-how-would-you-fix-dragonborns-breath-weapon/page5&highlight=Dragonborn), and decide whether you believe in rewarding such behavior.
oh I forgot that he believes that dragons are omgbestthingeverftw and everything with the word dragon in it automatically gets bumped into the best pick section.
I wonder what happen if somebody rolled a dragonborn/ dragon sorcerer that picks TWO different colours at a table. oh they can actually dip chain warlock and get a pseudo-dragon as a familiar. And then they can twin the dragon breath spell and actually have a breath worthwhile.

[MThurston]

Oh, I know. He’s arguing in bad faith because he believes that any improvement to Dragonborns is because that people want them to be OP and to really play as dragons, which isn’t the case that anyone is making. Dragonborn are the weakest core race. It doesn’t make them unplayable, just weak. Suggestions to make them better don’t automatically make them OP. They might, given the suggestion, but not automatically.

Human, Human is the weakest race by far. I don't think it needs to be fixed but I do prefer the Variant.

If I have to roll stats and they end up being 11, 11, 13, 13, 15, 17; then I will play straight up human.

[JNAProductions]

Human, Human is the weakest race by far. I don't think it needs to be fixed but I do prefer the Variant.

If I have to roll stats and they end up being 11, 11, 13, 13, 15, 17; then I will play straight up human.

Would you like to address any other points that have been brought up?

[MThurston]

I don't want a project so I'm going to ask this very straightforward. Do the tables you play at have an irrational fear of players having any damage capabilities at low levels?
Your stance on things like the breath of a dragonborn or two weapon fighting is always, "it will make them better it'll make them too good and then everybody will want them." And your defense is always based around some arbitrary low-level character doing so much damage he breaks the game. Unlike a wizard casting sleep or so something else that can shut down an encounter in one action. Low-level and 5th editions are very swingy.
No one cares about the damage of a level 1 character. Sure the dragonborn could use its breath and wipe out four kolbolds. Next fight the same player is killed by four identical kobolds with just ok damage rolls in one round!!! Do We need to Nerf kolbolds because they can do too much damage? or if you look at the XP chart they pretty much want players to get to level 3 really quickly so they can actually start playing their class. almost every edition has some kind of heath bloat in 5th edition is no different. if you don't have a decent con it feels like if you trip and land on your face you can die from fall damage.

Until you play in one shots on Roll20 and the Dragonborn is sending it into player characters.

Humans, Dwarves, some Elves, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs and some other races do not have racial powers that scale. So I for one do not see a reason to even have scaling racial abilities.

I will ask a questions.

Is your dislike for the breath weapon the damage, the numbers hit, the frequency, the scaling or something else.

For me I have no issue with any of the above. I just don't understand why they do not have Darkvision.

[JNAProductions]

Until you play in one shots on Roll20 and the Dragonborn is sending it into player characters.

Humans, Dwarves, some Elves, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs and some other races do not have racial powers that scale. So I for one do not see a reason to even have scaling racial abilities.

I will ask a questions.

Is your dislike for the breath weapon the damage, the numbers hit, the frequency, the scaling or something else.

For me I have no issue with any of the above. I just don't understand why they do not have Darkvision.

Half Orcs have the ability to "Nope" dropping to 0 HP. That scales with your HP and the damage you take-it's way more valuable to take 50 points of damage while at 5 HP and say "Ha, still at 1!" than to take 4 points of damage while at 3 HP.

Dwarves have Poison Resistance, which halves all damage taken of that element, which does increase with higher level challenges.

Half Elves gain two skills, which scale with proficiency.

VHumans gain a skill, which scales with proficiency. In addition, their feat can scale-Tough gives more HP as you level, Magic Initiate or any other feat that grants cantrips scales, and Ritual Caster scales as you find more rituals.

In addition, passive features don't need to scale. There's no cost associated with using them. Active features do, if they compete with other scaling options.

[MThurston]

MThurston, there's a difference between a stat boost (a wholly passive feature) and a breath weapon (an ACTIVE feature).

A passive feature, like a stat boost, or Darkvision, doesn't need to scale. You're not giving up anything else to use it in an encounter.

An active feature has to remain useful against other actions-for combat, that means it's gotta scale. Otherwise, it becomes useless relative to your other actions, or at least needlessly niche.

Infernal Legacy. You know the Thaumaturgy cantrip.
When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the Hellish Rebuke spell as a 2nd-level spell once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a Long Rest.
When you reach 5th level, you can cast the Darkness spell once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a Long Rest.
Charisma is your Spellcasting ability for these Spells.

These are a racial ability. Do you think Hellish Rebuke should be cast at a higher level when you are level 10? Is it useless damage when you are 14 and can only cast it once as a 2nd level spell? What about Darkness? Should that scale also? Should these be changed to a short rest instead of a long rest.

So lets for example say you are 6th level.
Dragonborn can do a breath weapon for 3d6 damage. Average of 10 damage. Can be reset after a short rest. You can also hit more than 1 target. We will keep say on average 2 targets. So that is 20 damage on average if both targets fail.

Hellish Rebuke at 2nd level vs one target only and can not reset until a long rest. Average damage is 16 damage. More to a single target.

I would call these two equal at 6th level and give the edge to dragons breath because you can get more targets in it. 3 targets would give you 30 damage almost double of the Hellish Rebuke.

[JNAProductions]

Except you're completely ignoring the action economy.

A Tielfling does an extra 3d10 fire damage as a REACTION to taking damage.

A Dragonborn does 3d6 in a cone as an ACTION.

In other words, the Tiefling's spell is basically free damage, since it doesn't impinge upon their main action.
The Dragonborn's breath replaces their action, meaning it has to be better than their regular routine, or it's not worth it.

[MThurston]

Except you're completely ignoring the action economy.

A Tielfling does an extra 3d10 fire damage as a REACTION to taking damage.

A Dragonborn does 3d6 in a cone as an ACTION.

In other words, the Tiefling's spell is basically free damage, since it doesn't impinge upon their main action.
The Dragonborn's breath replaces their action, meaning it has to be better than their regular routine, or it's not worth it.

Because it's a reaction is the reason it is reset as a long rest and why Dragonbreath is reset at a short rest.

As a fighter for example I can get 4 attacks in a turn with action surge. Of course that is not going to equal a Dragonbreath.

But after you use that action surge you have two attacks. You have to make an attack roll so it's not a given damage. With Dragonbreath it's not a roll to hit but they do get a save. Doing 3d6 to 3 - 4 targets is better than two attacks.

It is situational but shouldn't racial abilities be situational and not the opening attack to every fight?

[Asmotherion]

i'm going for cantrip scaling and at-will.

Still an AoE so it's situationally good.

No need to change it into a Bonus Action. And i don't believe there's a need for a cooldown; it's damage output is going to be outdamaged by single target options and having enemies into possition in order not to cause friendly fire will probably be dificult to manage on it's own.

Arcane Casters interested in the "breath weapon trope" will have the far superion option of "dragon's breath" by level 3 that lasts for an entire encounter. An other option is to give access to the spell as a racial spell usable 1/short rest by level 3.

[Ganymede]

Except you're completely ignoring the action economy.

A Tielfling does an extra 3d10 fire damage as a REACTION to taking damage.

A Dragonborn does 3d6 in a cone as an ACTION.

In other words, the Tiefling's spell is basically free damage, since it doesn't impinge upon their main action.
The Dragonborn's breath replaces their action, meaning it has to be better than their regular routine, or it's not worth it.

I think this is an important note.

It is much like the lizardman's short rest based bite attack that is used as a bonus action and allows for some regeneration. It works because the damage it does is in addition to whatever you do as your action.

[JNAProductions]

Because it's a reaction is the reason it is reset as a long rest and why Dragonbreath is reset at a short rest.

As a fighter for example I can get 4 attacks in a turn with action surge. Of course that is not going to equal a Dragonbreath.

But after you use that action surge you have two attacks. You have to make an attack roll so it's not a given damage. With Dragonbreath it's not a roll to hit but they do get a save. Doing 3d6 to 3 - 4 targets is better than two attacks.

It is situational but shouldn't racial abilities be situational and not the opening attack to every fight?

Why? When your racial features consist of the usual stat bumps (and not even the best stat bumps, honestly), a single resistance, and the big feature... Why the hell SHOULDN'T the big feature be a great opening?

And, assuming you're a level 6 Fighter who's evenly bumped Constitution and Strength, you're looking at doing 2d6+4 damage (rerolling 1s and 2s) with +7 to-hit twice per turn, as opposed to 3d6 in a 15' cone (Dex save DC 14 for half).

Or, in other words, against a standard foe of, say, AC 16 (on the higher end) and Dex -1 (they're in chain, I guess) you do 14.8 damage per round with your greatsword or maul. Your breath does 8.925 damage to each of that target caught in there.

So yeah, it's marginally better against two foes (unless you can kill one with your weapon attack in one round, in which case, it's better to do that and blunt their offense than moderately damage but not kill both) but only slightly. Like, 20% better.

When my only other racial trait outside of mediocre stat bumps is a resistance, I want more than 20% better.

[stoutstien]

Why? When your racial features consist of the usual stat bumps (and not even the best stat bumps, honestly), a single resistance, and the big feature... Why the hell SHOULDN'T the big feature be a great opening?

And, assuming you're a level 6 Fighter who's evenly bumped Constitution and Strength, you're looking at doing 2d6+4 damage (rerolling 1s and 2s) with +7 to-hit twice per turn, as opposed to 3d6 in a 15' cone (Dex save DC 14 for half).

Or, in other words, against a standard foe of, say, AC 16 (on the higher end) and Dex -1 (they're in chain, I guess) you do 14.8 damage per round with your greatsword or maul. Your breath does 8.925 damage to each of that target caught in there.

So yeah, it's marginally better against two foes (unless you can kill one with your weapon attack in one round, in which case, it's better to do that and blunt their offense than moderately damage but not kill both) but only slightly. Like, 20% better.

When my only other racial trait outside of mediocre stat bumps is a resistance, I want more than 20% better.
If the breath keyed off Cha it could help it a lot. Add a floating +1 stat it it may be a solid race.

[JNAProductions]

If the breath keyed off Cha it could help it a lot. Add a floating +1 stat it it may be a solid race.

Would it, though?

It's great for Paladins, then.

But if I'm a Fighter or Barbarian... I need Charisma for nothing related to class, but damn do I need that Con score high!

[stoutstien]

Would it, though?

It's great for Paladins, then.

But if I'm a Fighter or Barbarian... I need Charisma for nothing related to class, but damn do I need that Con score high!
How often do you see a con higher than 14 on a character? Maybe a barbarian that wants to go unarmored but it still a secondary stat to raise behind str

[JNAProductions]

How often do you see a con higher than 14 on a character? Maybe a barbarian that wants to go unarmored but it still a secondary stat to raise behind str

Frequently. 16 is pretty common.

And even if the Barbarian never bothers with their Con above a 14, Cha is much, MUCH further behind.

[stoutstien]

Frequently. 16 is pretty common.

And even if the Barbarian never bothers with their Con above a 14, Cha is much, MUCH further behind.
Fine we'll make it a choice of charisma or Constitution. That way every class could at least potentially use it 🙄.
Honestly race choices are the only power Creep in 5e. lizardfolks are like a dragonborn but better.

[MThurston]

Fine we'll make it a choice of charisma or Constitution. That way every class could at least potentially use it 🙄.
Honestly race choices are the only power Creep in 5e. lizardfolks are like a dragonborn but better.

Lets just keep it the way it is and not mold it so someone can find a way to optimize it. To be honest it's already molded by what type of breath weapon you want.

[JNAProductions]

Lets just keep it the way it is and not mold it so someone can find a way to optimize it. To be honest it's already molded by what type of breath weapon you want.

What do you have against Dragonborn? You're in another thread asking for optimization advice, so you're clearly not against all optimization...

Did a dragonborn kill your first character?

[MThurston]

What do you have against Dragonborn? You're in another thread asking for optimization advice, so you're clearly not against all optimization...

Did a dragonborn kill your first character?

I think Dragonborn just need Darkvison.

[thoroughlyS]

Is your dislike for the breath weapon the damage, the numbers hit, the frequency, the scaling or something else.
I can't speak for everyone in the thread, but my issue is the poor action economy. In Tier 1, it is a niche trait to throw out against a handful of enemies. At 5th level, it becomes almost meaningless now that it's competing with the Attack action. That is why my proposal is to adjust the action at some point. A vocal part of the community advocate for bonus action use, but I think that would make the breath into the thing you are arguing against—free bonus damage. Given the race's martial theme, I opt to make the breath replace a single attack in the Attack action instead. That way, the classes which benefit most are the ones the dragonborn is themed around.




For me I have no issue with any of the above. I just don't understand why they do not have Darkvision.
This mirrors my problem with the race as a whole (and not just the breath weapon), they are lacking in any traits which give them an identity like dwarves getting free tools, or firbolgs talking to animals.

[MThurston]

I can't speak for everyone in the thread, but my issue is the poor action economy. In Tier 1, it is a niche trait to throw out against a handful of enemies. At 5th level, it becomes almost meaningless now that it's competing with the Attack action. That is why my proposal is to adjust the action at some point. A vocal part of the community advocate for bonus action use, but I think that would make the breath into the thing you are arguing against—free bonus damage. Given the race's martial theme, I opt to make the breath replace a single attack in the Attack action instead. That way, the classes which benefit most are the ones the dragonborn is themed around.




This mirrors my problem with the race as a whole (and not just the breath weapon), they are lacking in any traits which give them an identity like dwarves getting free tools, or firbolgs talking to animals.

Now we get some place.

I would have no issue with the following.

" Any class that allows another attack when taking the attack action can substitute their Breath Weapon as their second attack. "

I would have no issues with that.

[Yunru]

Here's the breath weapon variants my tables run:

Once per round, when you would make one or more weapon attacks, you can instead use the opportunity to exhale destructive energy. Your Draconic ancestry determines the size, shape, and damage type of the exhalation.

When you use your breath weapon, each creature in the area of the exhalation must make a saving throw, the type of which is determined by your Draconic ancestry. The DC for this saving throw equals 8 + your Constitution modifier + your Proficiency Bonus. A creature takes 1d6 damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one. The damage increases to 2d6 at 5th level, 3d6 at 11th level, and 4d6 at 17th level.
Things to note:
Cantrip sized damage.
Cantrip scaling.
Not a spell.
Replaces a single Attack action/Bonus action/Opportunity attack if you could already make a normal attack with it.


Once per round, when you would make a weapon attack, you can instead use the opportunity to exhale destructive energy. Your Draconic ancestry determines the size, shape, and damage type of the exhalation.

When you use your breath weapon, each creature in the area of the exhalation must make a saving throw, the type of which is determined by your Draconic ancestry. The DC for this saving throw equals 8 + your Constitution modifier + your Proficiency Bonus. A creature takes 1d6 damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one.
Things to note:
Cantrip sized damage.
No scaling.
Not a spell.
Can replace a single weapon attack each round.


We also give Dragonborn Darkvision.
(We've actually found both the above to be a little weak, and considered adding + Constitution modifier to the damage.)

[stoutstien]

I had an idea last night.
What if a lv 6 the breath got a rider on failed ST?
Poison - poison condition until end of next
Lighting- no reaction until end of next turn
Cold- prone
Acid- half movement speed or maybe blind
Fire- no idea!

If we made the damage a tag on instead of the focus it could open up some options

[MThurston]

Here's the breath weapon variants my tables run:

Things to note:
Cantrip sized damage.
Cantrip scaling.
Not a spell.
Replaces a single Attack action/Bonus action/Opportunity attack if you could already make a normal attack with it.


Things to note:
Cantrip sized damage.
No scaling.
Not a spell.
Can replace a single weapon attack each round.


We also give Dragonborn Darkvision.

A racial ability should not be an at will attack. Setting that up is not fair to all the other races.

[Yunru]

A racial ability should not be an at will attack. Setting that up is not fair to all the other races.

High Elf, who's racial ability partially consists of a free cantrip (and thus can be at-will attacks), says hello.

[MThurston]

High Elf, who's racial ability partially consists of a free cantrip (and thus can be at-will attacks), says hello.

Of all things flavor, a High Elf, favorite of the magic races, has a cantrip.

You are really comparing that to Dragon Breath.

The Breath Weapon should be a nice bonus that does decent damage. It does.

It also shouldn't be the EB as it is to Warlocks.

[Yunru]

Of all things flavor, a High Elf, favorite of the magic races, has a cantrip.

You are really comparing that to Dragon Breath.

The Breath Weapon should be a nice bonus that does decent damage. It does.

It also shouldn't be the EB as it is to Warlocks.

Well you're out of luck, because I think it should.
If "Breath Weapon" is what sets them apart from other races (other than cosmetics), then they should be able to use it regularly. Not just 1/6th of the time at best.

[stoutstien]

Well you're out of luck, because I think it should.
If "Breath Weapon" is what sets them apart from other races (other than cosmetics), then they should be able to use it regularly. Not just 1/6th of the time at best.
I'd just stop engaging MTurston on matters of balance or logic especially in regards to dragonborn. Don't play checkers with a chicken.

[MThurston]

Well you're out of luck, because I think it should.
If "Breath Weapon" is what sets them apart from other races (other than cosmetics), then they should be able to use it regularly. Not just 1/6th of the time at best.

I am not out of luck because the rules support me.

[MThurston]

I'd just stop engaging MTurston on matters of balance or logic especially in regards to dragonborn. Don't play checkers with a chicken.

And the Troll makes its entrance.

I believe my views on Dragon Breath is 100% spot on to the rules.

[Yunru]

I'd just stop engaging MTurston on matters of balance or logic especially in regards to dragonborn. Don't play checkers with a chicken.
It can't be that ba-


I am not out of luck because the rules support me.

I retract my previous statement.
Yeah, I'm not going to argue with someone who thinks "because rules" works against homebrew (especially since said homebrew is using the rules for creating a spell for balance).

[PeteNutButter]

Dragonborn are in the running for worst race in the PHB and the entire game. They are definitely turd tier.

Others have pointed out their lack of features overall contributes to the problem, as the race has no identity other than "dragon person." There is more fluff and dimension to basically every other race. Their entire fluff text in the PHB is basically "Dragonborn value competence." ...who doesn't?

As for the breath weapon. I'd say just increase the damage a little (maybe proficiency bonus[+1?]/d6), and increase the area each time it gains a new d6, 30 more feet for line, 15 more feet for cone. I think the area not changing is a big part of why it "feels weak."

My design change philosophy is to focus on why things feel weak. If you can address the feeling of features, without increasing power too much it usually works a lot better. In other words, if you can't easily balance a feature, see if you make it feel like its balanced. The goal isn't for the math to work out perfectly. It is for the dragonborn to feel satisfied that he or she did something cool, without the other players feeling like they are being overshadowed.

If it's 4 or 5d6 damage at level 9, it is passable damage, but still won't feel epic when you breathe a tiny 15 foot cone. Make it a 60 foot cone and suddenly your dragonborn can actually feel like a dragon, without all that much impact on gameplay balance. The dragonborn still is going to have trouble hitting large groups without catching allies in it etc. This will help the player feel like their character has a raging inferno (or whatever) built up in their lungs that they can unleash on a horde of lesser foes. It should be an exciting moment to use once per rest that the other players enjoy to see, much like the aasimar feature.

Even so the race probably needs more minor features, as well as more identity.

[Kadesh]

Now we get some place.

I would have no issue with the following.

" Any class that allows another attack when taking the attack action can substitute their Breath Weapon as their second attack. "

I would have no issues with that.

'Hey gucci gang, you know that time you could deal 2d6+Str+10, how about instead giving them save for half to take 4 damage instead?

Awesome.

[stoutstien]

'Hey gucci gang, you know that time you could deal 2d6+Str+10, how about instead giving them save for half to take 4 damage instead?

Awesome.
Maybe if they took poison they could be a bug/rodent exterminator?
"Yep you got dim termites. It looking like 2 breath, 3 breath max job. I can get my boys down here once they take a nap and will get this fixed right up.

[MThurston]

'Hey gucci gang, you know that time you could deal 2d6+Str+10, how about instead giving them save for half to take 4 damage instead?

Awesome.

Remember that time you had that enemy to 2 HPs and then dropped him with a breath weapon. Because that attack with your weapon isn't an auto hit!

Also comparing a racial ability to the best damaging weapon plus a feat isn't a good counter point.

[Kadesh]

Remember that time you had that enemy to 2 HPs and then dropped him with a breath weapon. Because that attack with your weapon isn't an auto hit!

Also comparing a racial ability to the best damaging weapon plus a feat isn't a good counter point.
No, but comparing action to action is.

I like how your opinion has now morphed to 'this ability is able to kill something on its last legs already, but also might fail unless you metagame and know its Hit Points'.

[MThurston]

No, but comparing action to action is.

I like how your opinion has now morphed to 'this ability is able to kill something on its last legs already, but also might fail unless you metagame and know its Hit Points'.

You would not have to play a class if your racial attack was better than weapons and spells.

So it needs to be good but not great.