High CR creatures as Gods in E6

[Blackhawk748]

In one of the recent E6 threads (I can't recall which one off hand) one poster mentioned that they had the idea of just using creatures from the Monster Manual as their gods. So for instance, there is only one Pit Fiend, one Solar etc and they are the Gods of Good and Evil. A Kraken could be good of the Sea, a powerful Ent God of nature. You get the idea.

My question is this, what would this fundamentally change about a setting. I mean, you could go actually meet certain Gods and talk to them. See them with your own eyes, no magic required.

*Assume that they have low end Divine Ranks, like 5 and down so they can grant Domains

[thorr-kan]

Originally discussed part way through:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579113-The-Benefits-of-DM-ing-E6-My-Experience-So-Far

I think it would have a very Greek pantheon feel. Divine beings are here and involved in your life. Any tree, river, or mount could have a spirit inhabiting it.

But would this really be any different from an avatar-heavy setting like Forgotten Realms or any Lloth-worshipping drow setting?

[Hackulator]

Originally discussed part way through:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579113-The-Benefits-of-DM-ing-E6-My-Experience-So-Far

I think it would have a very Greek pantheon feel. Divine beings are here and involved in your life. Any tree, river, or mount could have a spirit inhabiting it.

But would this really be any different from an avatar-heavy setting like Forgotten Realms or any Lloth-worshipping drow setting?

I think the main difference might be that these gods can actually, theoretically be killed, whereas when you have avatars running about killing it makes little difference. The fact that it was the ACTUAL GOD as opposed to just a splinter or agent of it also adds a lot to the feeling of awe.

It might be a cool way to end a campain if you had a group of E6 characters have to figure out a way to defeat a CR 20 "God" and when they do they take its divine spark and are able to ascend beyond level 6 themselves, thus making them NPCs and retiring them. You could then run another session later where these characters are the gods the new characters worship.

[King of Nowhere]

it would, in principle, be a similar thing as an epic campaign to kill the gods and take their place, only with lower stats all around

[emulord]

Tarrasque as a being of destruction worshipped by cultists is classic.

Other good worship candidates -
Titan
Dragons
Lich
Elementals
Nightshade
Roc
Colossi (shadow of the colossus)
Phoenix

You could even throw on templates to lower (CR 4-15) creatures to bump them up to as scary as a god should be.
Aranea -> Lolth

I like this idea, it gives Gods a better reason to meddle, but also to just go live on mount Olympus so the mortals don't bother them constantly.

[Blackhawk748]

it would, in principle, be a similar thing as an epic campaign to kill the gods and take their place, only with lower stats all around

Would it though? The gods would have extremely limited Salient Divine abilities and only whats in their statblock, so unless they get racial casting, they will just be really, really big beatsticks with some neat extras.

I mean, clearly you wouldnt generally pick something to be a god unless it had some sort of magical abilities but the Kraken can only mess with the weather and winds. Yes thats huge in E6, but its not rocking Miracle or Shapechange like the Solar could. Really I have a feeling that it would look very different fight wise than a high epic game.

[Mr Adventurer]

Hi, this was me.

The principle is not that the existing divinity rules get added onto standard monsters.

The point is, in an E6 world, 9th level Sorcerer spellcasting or a suite of medium-to-high-level SLAs or whatever is as far beyond most mortals as the current divinity rules are beyond high-level mortals.

So, Solar, the one above all, has spellcasting as a 17th-level Cleric as well as a bunch of SLAs and stats that no 6th level character can dream of. He has Gate, he has Miracle, he has Genesis. He's also ageless. Within the scale of an E6 world, where the most powerful mortal magic-workers ever to live can just about fling a 6d6 fireball, or with research and a ritual remove the negative-energy curse of the touch of a Wraith, or whatever - these powers are godly.

So yes, it was about sliding that scale and reimagining divinity as 'high level magic' within the boundaries of the D&D system.

Absolutely it meant lesser gods could be killed. Many live in the world, too, rather than in an outer plane.

For some reason I also always thought about the Couatl. What's it's CR? 9? Yet they also cast as Sorcerers of the same HD. That is easily enough to appear - and to all intents and purposes within the context - to be godly. Which is great, because IIRC the Couatl is taken from a real-world god-creature.

You can pray to a god, but unless you're in their temple while you are there, they won't hear you unless they're otherwise making the effort within the scope of their powers.

It also means, of course, that many of the powerful beings abide by a set of rules of noninterference because only they can challenge each other. But of course they still mess around, within the limits of their personal and delegated powers. But it's the reason the Pit Fiend doesn't just Wish himself to the world and burn it all: Solar would come and kill him.

Balor, the god of cruelty, trickery, and murder, is really bad news.

[Mr Adventurer]

Oh - I was thinking the Tarrasque isn't a god as such but is the legitimate world-ender, the slumbering leviathan at the centre of the earth, the bringer of the End Times.

[HouseRules]

In Epic 6, Level 6 is Heroic Tier, and by Greek Mythology, that means Heroic Deity = Divine Rank 0.

[Blackhawk748]

Hi, this was me.

A-ha! He arrives.


The principle is not that the existing divinity rules get added onto standard monsters.

The point is, in an E6 world, 9th level Sorcerer spellcasting or a suite of medium-to-high-level SLAs or whatever is as far beyond most mortals as the current divinity rules are beyond high-level mortals.

Oh, ya, that one is my idea so that they can grant Domains as per DnDs rules. of course you can just handwave that, but I don't mind using the Divine Ranks system as its meant to be an addon to an existing thing. Plus it lets them actually know about the things they are supposed to be governing. I mean, how else is an Ent supposed to properly rule as the God of Forests?

But ya, its supposed to patch the holes not make them a god whole cloth.


For some reason I also always thought about the Couatl. What's it's CR? 9? Yet they also cast as Sorcerers of the same HD. That is easily enough to appear - and to all intents and purposes within the context - to be godly. Which is great, because IIRC the Couatl is taken from a real-world god-creature.

The Couatl can also cast Cleric spells if it picked them for its Spells known, which is insane. It also has Plane Shift as an At Will SLA, so it can even do what Quetzecoatl was supposed to do, though by bouncing up to the Celestial planes and asking for a favor to mess with the weatehr as it can't do it alone.



It also means, of course, that many of the powerful beings abide by a set of rules of noninterference because only they can challenge each other. But of course they still mess around, within the limits of their personal and delegated powers. But it's the reason the Pit Fiend doesn't just Wish himself to the world and burn it all: Solar would come and kill him.

Balor, the god of cruelty, trickery, and murder, is really bad news.

The upside to them being CR'd creatures is that they don't even need a formal compact, the fact that the Solar can kick the crap out of the Balor and the Pit Fiend is enough to stop them from going on the Prime Material Plane, and the Solar can't go to the Abyss or the Nine Hells as it would get stomped by them in turn.

Makes far more sense than what we actually get in normal DnD, cuz why would Erythnul agree to this rule? Besides, he's flipping insane!

[Bavarian itP]

But where to draw the line?

Is the trully horrid umber hulk (HD 20, CR 14) unique? Is he some sort of umber hulk god-king or just a particular large and strong umber hulk? How about the eleven-headed pyro-hydra? Elder black pudding? Colossal animated object? :smalltongue:

And is the line between "divine" and "mortal" identical to the line between "unique" and "generic"? Or are those two different lines?

[Bronk]

The upside to them being CR'd creatures is that they don't even need a formal compact, the fact that the Solar can kick the crap out of the Balor and the Pit Fiend is enough to stop them from going on the Prime Material Plane, and the Solar can't go to the Abyss or the Nine Hells as it would get stomped by them in turn.

I like this... it would be just like a DnD version of the Disney Hercules movie, where Hades forces a minion to go get a 'river god' to join their team, or life during the Age of Dragons in Faerun.

With potentially limited reach and information, I'd think there would have to be a relatively small number of these monsters though. Otherwise, it would just be a monsterfest all day every day.

[Hackulator]

But where to draw the line?

Is the trully horrid umber hulk (HD 20, CR 14) unique? Is he some sort of umber hulk god-king or just a particular large and strong umber hulk? How about the eleven-headed pyro-hydra? Elder black pudding? Colossal animated object? :smalltongue:

And is the line between "divine" and "mortal" identical to the line between "unique" and "generic"? Or are those two different lines?

I mean, the line is drawn wherever the DM of a particular game decides to draw it. Is the Truly Horrid Umber Hulk in your game? Well then, decide what he is. If it isn't in your game, who cares?

[Blackhawk748]

But where to draw the line?

Is the trully horrid umber hulk (HD 20, CR 14) unique? Is he some sort of umber hulk god-king or just a particular large and strong umber hulk? How about the eleven-headed pyro-hydra? Elder black pudding? Colossal animated object? :smalltongue:

And is the line between "divine" and "mortal" identical to the line between "unique" and "generic"? Or are those two different lines?

That's a choice you make. Do all large forests have an Ent God? Is a Half Fiend War Troll a stupidly powerful mortal or a Demon Lord? Are Dragons Gods?

These are your choices and will affect your setting. Personally I would try to keep the number of Gods down and try and make them more unique

[Bavarian itP]

I mean, the line is drawn wherever the DM of a particular game decides to draw it.

Yes, obviously. That is true of every single thing discussed in this forums.

But shouldn't we talk about where a reasonable DM should draw the line, or by what criteria?

[Lapak]

I like this idea a lot, just to get that out there.


Yes, obviously. That is true of every single thing discussed in this forums.

But shouldn't we talk about where a reasonable DM should draw the line, or by what criteria?

Hmm. I think it should be a mix. Minor/local deities should be... not common, but not hard to find. I'd scatter a bunch of CR 10-12 beings across the landscape as local deities.
Elder Elementals, a CR12 Hydra, that kind of thing. Then keep it to a handful for the CR20ish crowd of unique beings.

Two 'pantheons,' maybe.

One has one of each of the standard metallic and chromatic dragons.

One has, let's see, five gods that balance the world, each of whom could individually wreak havoc if unchecked by the others.
A Solar for the forces of Good.
A Balor for the forces of Evil.
An Elder Treant for the forces of Nature.
An (intelligent) Adamantine Golem for the forces of Civilization and Industry.
The Tarrasque as a force of balance, called forth whenever one of the others sways things too far to tear down their works.

[Blackhawk748]

Yes, obviously. That is true of every single thing discussed in this forums.

But shouldn't we talk about where a reasonable DM should draw the line, or by what criteria?

The problem with that is, is what kind of setting do they want? Do want a ton of minor gods? Then choose a bunch of CR 9-12s and have them be gods for you a few big ones. Want your gods to feel super powerful? Only have a few and make them unique.

I mean, we can talk about what's "reasonable" for a given context, but this topic doesn't really have one way to run it.

[johnbragg]

If I could ask a practical question:

The defining feature of D&D gods is that they grant spells to their clerics. That's, fundamentally, why Iuz is a god and the Tarrasque isn't.

So, if you kill one of the gods--what happens to their clerics? Can they still cast spells? If so, how?

Cool thought--what if one of the marks of divinity in the setting is the ability to borrow or drain HP (or maybe even levels?) from your clerics and worshippers across the world?

[Blackhawk748]

If I could ask a practical question:

The defining feature of D&D gods is that they grant spells to their clerics. That's, fundamentally, why Iuz is a god and the Tarrasque isn't.

So, if you kill one of the gods--what happens to their clerics? Can they still cast spells? If so, how?

Cool thought--what if one of the marks of divinity in the setting is the ability to borrow or drain HP (or maybe even levels?) from your clerics and worshippers across the world?

I would presume that the killer gets their Divine Spark (or whatever you want to call it) andthe Followers can choose to follow the userper or become Clerics of an Ideal. It would obviously be a mess.

That would certainly be interesting. You're trying to kill one of the weaker gods and they just suck 1 HP from each follower to keep healing themsleves. That would be a long fight.

[johnbragg]

I would presume that the killer gets their Divine Spark (or whatever you want to call it) andthe Followers can choose to follow the userper or become Clerics of an Ideal. It would obviously be a mess.

Fairly often the usurper system doesn't work--if Shinysword the PAladin of Goodygoodness gets in the killing blow on Lolth, Queen of the Demonweb Pits (update her 1E stats to 3E), the drow aren't likely to start sacrificing slaves to their new Tyrant Queen Shinysword of Unbearably Painful Light and Goodness.


That would certainly be interesting. You're trying to kill one of the weaker gods and they just suck 1 HP from each follower to keep healing themsleves. That would be a long fight.

Tactically, you'd have to drop them in one round (in the 20-count between their initiative in this round where they heal up and their initiative in the next round.) I'd also figure the drain isn't super-efficient, so the followers (total) are losing a lot more HP than the god is recovering, even though the individual followers are losing 1 hp per use of the ability. (Or maybe it's JUST the clerics, who lose (1dX), or 1 hp per level per use of the ability.)

E6 could *really* use a subsystem like this, where the power of a congregation or community or a faction can be harnessed for higher-level effects that daily 3rd level spells don't cover.

In a magical world, in a scene like Spider-Man straining to hold the two subway cars together, the psychic power of a couple of hundred people rooting for you SHOULD have some crunch effect.

EDIT: Following that rabbit hole, maybe I need to find and buy a PDF of the old Marvel Super Heroes RPG (the FASERIP system) and read the rules for Karma.

[Lapak]

EDIT: Following that rabbit hole, maybe I need to find and buy a PDF of the old Marvel Super Heroes RPG (the FASERIP system) and read the rules for Karma.
IIRC, that's not how it worked. It was used for both character development and heroic feats, but it was earned more like experience points - I don't remember a mechanic for awarding it in the moment.

So the train car thing might earn you Karma after the fact, but to stop it in the first place you'd already need to have some banked.

(It's possible I'm remembering this incorrectly; it has been 20+ years since I've read the books.)

EDIT: To stop it via greater-than-normal superheroics, that is.

[Bronk]

If I could ask a practical question:

The defining feature of D&D gods is that they grant spells to their clerics. That's, fundamentally, why Iuz is a god and the Tarrasque isn't.

Demon Lords and Archdevils also grant spells...



So, if you kill one of the gods--what happens to their clerics? Can they still cast spells? If so, how?

Either there are no clerics, or clerics are actually granted spells by ideals and they've been duped into believing the monsters are their spell's source. Monsters taking credit for spells has come up at least once in novels.



Cool thought--what if one of the marks of divinity in the setting is the ability to borrow or drain HP (or maybe even levels?) from your clerics and worshippers across the world?

That would fit in with demon or devil cult's always ending up making sacrifices.

[johnbragg]

Demon Lords and Archdevils also grant spells...



Either there are no clerics, or clerics are actually granted spells by ideals and they've been duped into believing the monsters are their spell's source. Monsters taking credit for spells has come up at least once in novels.



That would fit in with demon or devil cult's always ending up making sacrifices.


If I could ask a practical question:

The defining feature of D&D gods is that they grant spells to their clerics. That's, fundamentally, why Iuz is a god and the Tarrasque isn't.
Demon Lords and Archdevils also grant spells...

That's why I went with the Tarrasque. The distinction between "deity" and "monster" in D&D is pretty much the fact that deities have clerics who can cast spells. (Yes, by this definition, demon lords, ideals and philosophies etc are Deities. The lack of stats, persona and divine rank is, as an Aristotelian would say, accidental.)


So, if you kill one of the gods--what happens to their clerics? Can they still cast spells? If so, how?
Either there are no clerics, or clerics are actually granted spells by ideals and they've been duped into believing the monsters are their spell's source. Monsters taking credit for spells has come up at least once in novels

Well, at some point, one of the gods IS going to get killed, and the magic isn't going to stop working. Which is going to tip some people with high Knowledge: Arcana and /or Knowledge: Religion that the "gods" aren't what they seem.

If you're a good cleric of the Twelve Gods of the OOTSVerse, and a billion zillion goblins show up, sack the city, invade the temple and slaughter the pantheon--and your spells don't stop working, that's gonna be a big clue that things are Not As They Seem.

EDIT: Long ago, in college, I wrote a setting heavily based on the fall of the Roman Empire, and put way too much thought into the history and evolution of the cultures. One of the major features was that belief-powered gods COULD be killed, but part of the formula was the decimation of their priesthood, sacking of their temple, and building a portal to their homeworld. (WEaken them by cutting off their power supply, humiliating them and THEN it's still a major endeavor, basically requiring the resources of an organized state.

The Great Empire got sick of the (Isreal/Judea/Hebrews expy's) rebellions and insubordination, mounted the campaign, checked all the boxes, destroyed the (Second Temple)--but the communities were still able to access priest magic without a god or a main temple. That scared the bejeezus out of everybody else, and led to research megaprojects which, in a universe powered by belief, became self-fulfilling prophecies and helped bring about the end of the Empire and the destruction of the core Father-Mother dyad of the pantheon that had absorbed most of the other gods.