How early can you become a Prismatic Great Wyrm?

[Pippin]

This is heavy TO territory.

How early can you become a Prismatic Great Wyrm? Or at least, utterly and permanently acquire the INT/WIS/CHA scores of a Prismatic Great Wyrm, whichever is faster.

I was going to end this post here, but I figured people might ask for settings, so here's a few:


3.5e books and web articles are allowed, plus 3.0e stuff that has not been revised. Anything else (such as Dragon magazines) should be ignored.
Ability scores: Point-Buy, 32 points.
Pun-Pun is off the table.
Psionics is not a legal choice for Supernatural Transformation.
The line "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item" in Wish's description is removed. Same with Reality Revision.
Feats granted by Vow of Poverty can be chaos shuffled.

That should be enough.

[Anthrowhale]

How early can you become a Prismatic Great Wyrm? Or at least, utterly and permanently acquire the INT/WIS/CHA scores of a Prismatic Great Wyrm, whichever is faster.

True Mind Switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm) has this effect although "you" (the identity) go with your Int/Wis/Cha into the PGW body while the PGW shifts with it's excellent Int/Wis/Cha into your old body.

Achieving a sufficient manifester level is mostly easily done by a spellcaster who uses tricks to increase caster level sufficiently high then translates that into manifester level via Mental Pinnacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm).

After that, you need to get True Mind Switch to be a power known for which there are some tricks. The simplest here is via Psychic Chirurgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Buy a scroll of gate with a high enough CL to get a wyrmling prismatic dragon and retain control of it. (23 HD, and gate can control CL x 2 HD at a time, so minimum CL.) Also get eleven scrolls of bestow curse and one of polymorph.

Get a power stone each of fusion and astral seed.

Use UMD to cast from the gate scroll. You now have a baby prismatic dragon. Command it to accede to having spells and powers used on it, lowering its SR/PR and willingly failing any saves. Cast polymorph on yourself to become Huge sized. Manifest fusion on the dragon. Cast bestow curse on yourself, boosting your age category by one each, according to the additional curses available in the BoVD. You are now under the effects of fusion with a great wyrm prismatic dragon, with all of the mental scores thereof (since they are likely higher than yours). Ensure you remain in control of the body at all times. Now manifest astral seed.

Wait a few days until you recreate your dragon body.

Voila.

And it's doable pretty early, so long as you have enough money, UMD, and UPD to fuel it, the latter two as early as level 1 with some optimization.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Psionic artificer, craft an item of fusion and one of astral seed, ECL 13. Ensure type and size compatibility with metamorphosis, expansion, and compression (on the wyrm).

If you allow Leadership, an 8th-level human psychic warrior with Psicrystal Affinity and 7x Improved Psicrystal can have a 15 HD psicrystal with Leadership, which can have a 13th-level psionic artificer as a cohort.

Note that the wyrm must be willing, so you need to negotiate with it, mind control it, or knock it unconscious.


Edit: @Maxi: I don't think bestow curse can stack age category increases. Same effect from the same source, and all that. However, a CL 39 scroll of gate will still do the job.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you allow Leadership, an 8th-level human psychic warrior with Psicrystal Affinity and 7x Improved Psicrystal can have a 15 HD psicrystal with Leadership, which can have a 13th-level psionic artificer as a cohort.How does Improved Psicrystal increase psicrystal HD? They are not psicrystal granted abilities...not that Improved Psicrystal works to improve those anyway, given the wording.


Edit: @Maxi: I don't think bestow curse can stack age category increases. Same effect from the same source, and all that. However, a CL 39 scroll of gate will still do the job.Fair enough.

[Rynjin]

The simplest answer would be to be born as a wyrmling prismatic dragon and survive for a very long time.

Perhaps not the fastest option, but the one that requires the least rules finagling and chance of failure.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How does Improved Psicrystal increase psicrystal HD? They are not psicrystal granted abilities...not that Improved Psicrystal works to improve those anyway, given the wording.
Hmm, good point. I just remembered the trick from the compilation thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook) ("Shards of Leadership"). Which apparently shows that it's possible at ECL 2, using nested Leadership feats. In fact, a human erudite 1 can have five feats (one base, two flaws, one race, one class) plus Psicrystal Affinity (class), so if the trick works, it works at ECL 1.

But anyway, the wording probably doesn't allow the trick to work...

Psicrystal abilities are based on the owner’s levels in psionic classes. Levels from other classes do not count toward the owner’s level for purposes of psicrystal abilities.

From now on, when determining the abilities of your psicrystal, treat your manifester level as one higher than your normal manifester level.

Hit Dice: As master’s HD

As written, Improved Psicrystal does nothing to psicrystal abilities (whatever those are), because manifester level doesn't affect those. This is a common WotC error; the editor forgot that ML is a derived stat, which might change when people multi-class or use ML boosts. The author probably meant "level in a manifesting class" (at least, I hope they didn't mean to write a useless clause into a feat :smalltongue:).

In either case, psicrystal HD don't appear to scale with class level, but rather with HD (unless HD are considered abilities, which would be unusual). That does have the upside that a 20th-level character will always have a 20-HD psicrystal (with seven feats), even if they only have one level in psion, but it does mean the above trick won't work.

Interestingly, both mistakes are from a too-quick analogy: the editor assumed that "scaling with manifester level" was the same as "scaling with level in a manifesting class", and I assumed that psicrystal HD were like animal companion/special mount bonus HD (i.e. scale with effective druid/paladin level respectively).

[unseenmage]

Reading your restrictions on Wish I assume the race changing ritual in Savage Species which uses Wish isnt going to cut it?

[Caudex Capite]

A 3rd level Wizard can maybe do it with a couple of arguable rules interpretations and massive cheese. You'll need the Versatile Domain Generalist trick (Questionable trick #1) for 9ths at level 1, using the Animal Domain (because you'll need 2 casts of Shapechange). The first one will be used for CL setup, the second to actually turn into the Prismatic Great Wyrm. 3rd level is necessary for the WBL to afford the Shapechange spell focus.

Cast Shapechange, turn into a Zodar, and use the Wish Su ability (Questionable Trick #2) to duplicate Consumptive Field and Greater Consumptive Field, maxing and then recasting them to get to arbitrarily high CL (this will take some time and a lot of low level critters killed for it, but you do have Wishes to help). Unfortunately, since you aren't casting them, you have to respect their CL caps, but if you cast one, max it, cast the other, max it, then recast the first one, you can keep increasing the CL bonus without bound (Questionable trick #3). Once your CL is at least 75 from this process, (you get one per cast, because of your poor base, so you'll have killed a couple thousand creatures to reach this point) you can cast your second Shapechange with Reserves of Strength for +3 more caster level and breaking CL caps (Questionable Trick #4), giving you a CL 78 Shapechange that lets you turn into a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon.

That said, this does not give you the mental ability scores of such a dragon, and isn't permanent. But you are a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon at level 3, so that's something. If you can break WBL at level 1, you can do it then, actually, but I'm trying not to break that.

[Pippin]

Reading your restrictions on Wish I assume the race changing ritual in Savage Species which uses Wish isnt going to cut it?
I don't know about that. My intent was to prevent "I wish for a Ring of Three Wishes" kind of loops, but if you have a reasonable use for this line, that should be ok.

That said, this does not give you the mental ability scores of such a dragon, and isn't permanent. But you are a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon at level 3, so that's something. If you can break WBL at level 1, you can do it then, actually, but I'm trying not to break that.
Indeed that's something! How much would you like to break WBL?

[RoboEmperor]

True Mind Switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm) has this effect although "you" (the identity) go with your Int/Wis/Cha into the PGW body while the PGW shifts with it's excellent Int/Wis/Cha into your old body.

Never recommend True Mind Switch. Ever. Never ever. Never ever ever.

Recommend Astral Seed + Mind Switch. Doesn't cost 10,000xp. Doesn't result in a level loss.

[Anthrowhale]

Never recommend True Mind Switch. Ever. Never ever. Never ever ever.

Recommend Astral Seed + Mind Switch. Doesn't cost 10,000xp. Doesn't result in a level loss.

:-) I'm aware of Mind Switch + Astral Seed, but I'm also aware that not every DM allows that to work.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

:-) I'm aware of Mind Switch + Astral Seed, but I'm also aware that not every DM allows that to work.The regular mind switch gives a way to make it permanent in its own text. It just says it's "evil." Though using mind switch on something without a mind and killing it wouldn't really have any parts to it that are "evil" in any way, shape, or form.

Not that there's apparently anything wrong with "evil," since it's apparently an acceptable worldview by the powers that be. After all, 1/3 of everything and everyone is Evil-aligned, if not vastly, vastly more. Infinite demons, anyone?

Though in the modern day we call that "sociopathy," but whatever.

[Caudex Capite]

I don't know about that. My intent was to prevent "I wish for a Ring of Three Wishes" kind of loops, but if you have a reasonable use for this line, that should be ok.

Indeed that's something! How much would you like to break WBL?

The major limiting factor on this is actually the 1500 gp Shapechange focus. If you can afford that at level 1, the rest of the loop works fine, though you might have to toss in another CL booster spell from Wish for the loop to start (it needs CL2 minimum), and maybe some DCFS to get Reserves of Strength up (I think you end up needing 5 feats total).

That said, if your intention was to prevent infinite wish loops, I was getting infinite Su wishes with Shapechange. There are definitely other ways to get the CL up, though.

[Deophaun]

That does have the upside that a 20th-level character will always have a 20-HD psicrystal (with seven feats), even if they only have one level in psion..
Nope.

A psicrystal’s characteristics depend on its master. Its Hit Dice are equal to its master’s Hit Dice (counting only levels in psion or wilder), its hit points are equal to half its master’s, and its saving throw bonuses are the same as its master’s.
Text > Table.

Obviously, most groups amend "psion or wilder" to include any psionic class that can qualify for psicrystal affinity, but RAW, a psion 1 warblade 19 only has a 1 HD psicrystal.

[Jack_Simth]

Never recommend True Mind Switch. Ever. Never ever. Never ever ever.

Recommend Astral Seed + Mind Switch. Doesn't cost 10,000xp. Doesn't result in a level loss.
There is a circumstance under which you should recommend True Mind Switch:

In 3.0, there was no True Mind Switch, there was only Mind Switch. It became forever if you killed your prior body while it was active. The text about the specific combo could be viewed as an editing error (specifically a holdover artifact). If your DM views it that way and "corrects it accordingly": the combo fails to work, and you just committed suicide if you try it (hopefully your DM tells you before you do, though).

In that circumstance, True Mind Switch is the version you'll need to do the job of getting a different body.

[RoboEmperor]

There is a circumstance under which you should recommend True Mind Switch:

In 3.0, there was no True Mind Switch, there was only Mind Switch. It became forever if you killed your prior body while it was active. The text about the specific combo could be viewed as an editing error (specifically a holdover artifact). If your DM views it that way and "corrects it accordingly": the combo fails to work, and you just committed suicide if you try it (hopefully your DM tells you before you do, though).

In that circumstance, True Mind Switch is the version you'll need to do the job of getting a different body.

No matter the reasoning, that's a house rule :P


:-) I'm aware of Mind Switch + Astral Seed, but I'm also aware that not every DM allows that to work.

It's RAW... and it's not even Rule Lawyering too...

[Pippin]

Okay, I was mistaken. I thought the line in Wish that I removed would have enabled anyone to craft rings of wishes for free, but I realise now that this is not the case. If a magic item has an XP cost, the caster has to pay it in addition to the first 5,000 XP, so that's okay for me.

I found this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240522-Turning-Psion-into-the-Second-most-broken-thing-in-the-game) that goes much beyond what I'm asking. I took inspiration from it to write down a solution in the spoiler.

Class: Telepath (knowing Mindlink).
Ability Scores: 16 points to INT, middle age: XX/XX/XX/19/XX/XX.
Race: whatever.
Bloodline: Major (whatever).
1st-level Feat: Inquisitor.
Feats granted from Flaws: Favored [Psionics Guild], Primary Contact [Knowledge (Psionics)].
Skills: 2 ranks to Use Psionic Device.

0. Take at least 1 bloodline level.
1. Buy:
one Orange Psionic Ioun Stone (30,000 gp.)
two scrolls of Guidance of the Avatar (CL 3, 2x3x25 = 150 gp. each)
two scrolls of Divine Insight (CL 10, 2x10x25 = 500 gp. each)
one power stone of Greater Metamorphosis (ML 17, 9x17x25 + 5x200 = 4,825 gp.)
one power stone of Fusion (ML 15, 8x15x25 + 5x50 = 3,250 gp.)
one power stone of Astral Seed (ML 15, 8x15x25 = 3,000 gp.)
one power stone of Psychic Reformation for one level (ML 7, 4x7x25 + 5x50 = 950 gp.)
one power stone of Psychic Reformation for two levels (ML 7, 4x7x25 + 5x100 = 1,200 gp.)
2. Ask a cleric to cast Divine Insight on you (CL 10, 10x20 = 200 gp.), effective for at least 10 hours.
3. Ask a cleric to cast Guidance of the Avatar on you (CL 3, 3x20 = 60 gp.), effective for 1 minute.
4. Activate your power stone of Greater Metamorphosis with Use Psionic Device. Minimal modifier: 2+15+20-1 = +36.
5. Your throw is equal to or greater than 37, and your INT score is 19, so you manifest the power successfully. The power remains active for at least 17 minutes.
6. Transform into a Zodar and use its supernatural ability to wish for a scroll of Ice Assassin: Great Prismatic Wyrm.
7. Transform into a Lilitu and use its supernatural ability to successfully cast Ice Assassin as a standard action. (This goes against Rules Compendium apparently.)
8. You now have a Great Prismatic Wyrm under your absolute command. Command it to shapechange into a Lilitu.
9. Again use Lilitu's supernatural ability on your scrolls and cast Divine Insight on yourself, effective for at least 10 hours, then Guidance of the Avatar, effective for 1 minute.
10. Activate your power stone of Fusion with Use Psionic Device (your throw is greater than 35) and merge with the Dragon.
11. Repeat 9.
12. Transform into a Beguiler (the cute pet from Shining South) and ask your Dragon to do the same.
13. Activate your power stone of Astral Seed with Use Psionic Device (your throw is greater than 35).
14. Kill yourself and resuscitate as an Beguiler Telepath 1, with ability scores: 06/17/11/64/65/64, ECL1. The permanent True Seeing (Su) is bonus.
15. Take all 3 bloodline levels.
16. Activate your power stone of Psychic Reformation (1 level back) with Use Psionic Device. Minimal modifier: 2+27 = 29.
17. Your throw is greater than 27, so you manifest the power successfully. Your rearrange your skill ranks so that you spend 7+1 ranks in Knowledge (Psionics) and 4 ranks in Diplomacy.
18. Gain enough XP to level up. Since your 3 bloodline levels coupled with your Orange Psionic Ioun Stone make your ML equal to 5, and everything else is achieved, you are allowed to take a level in Thrallherd.
19. Activate your power stone of Psychic Reformation (2 levels back) with Use Psionic Device. Spend 8 ranks in Knowledge (Psionics), 4 ranks in Diplomacy and rearrange the rest however you want.
20. Swap Favored and Primary Contact for more useful feats, such as Practiced Manifester and Overchannel.
21. Congratulations, you are now a Telepath 1/Thrallherd 1 with permanent True Seeing and your ability scores are 06/17/11/64/65/64.

As you might have guessed, being a Dragon didn't really interest me, I was only after its mental stat block. I'm not aware of any creature with a better one.