5e Frenzy Fix

[KingdomCody]

I was reading a thread posted two years ago(nearly necromanced it without realizing it yikes) for Frenzy and ever since then nobody's talked about Frenzy and that it needs to be fixed, so I did Autisic levels of math for you to try and convince people that Frenzy needs a buff with the release of Xanathar's guide.

Frenzy
:At 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. When the rage ends you gain one level of exhaustion.

Who is this contender I found in the Barbarian Subclass? I bring to you the Way of the Zealot:

Divine Fury
:At 3rd level, while you're raging, the first creature you hit on each of your turns with a weapon attack takes extra damage equal to 1d6 + half your barbarian level. The extra damage is necrotic or radiant; you choose the type of damage when you gain this feature.

I got curious, so I did some math. I did this with a few different scenarios, no bonuses just class features and levels, with magical items, with Feats and magical items, and the results will shock you.

With nothing
Level 3: Rage damage is 2 per hit.
Berserker: 2d12(2,12,24)+4= 6,16,28
Zealot: 1d12(1,6,12)+1d6+1(2,4,7)+2=5,12,21
Level 4: Rage damage is 2 per hit
Berserker: 2d12(2,12,24)+4=6,16,28
Zealot: 1d12(1,6,12)+1d6+2(3,5,8)+2= 6,13,22
Level 5: Rage damage is 2 per hit, Extra attack (If you make the attack action, you attack twice)
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+6= 9,24,42
Zealot: 2d12(2,12,24)+2d6+4(6,10,18)+4=12,26,46
Level 8: Rage Damage is still 2 per hit
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+6= 9,24,42
Zealot: 2d12(2,12,24)+2d6+8(10,14,20)+4=16,30,48
Level 20: Rage damage is now 4 per hit
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+12=15,30,48
Zealot: 2d12(2,12,24)+2d6+20(22,26,32)+8=32,46,64

By level 5 the Zealot out damages the Berserker, but what about with some magical items... Like a belt of Storm Giant strength?
With Magical Items: Belt of Storm Giant Strength(sets Strength to 29(+9), +3 weapon.

Level 3: 2 rage, +9 str, +3 weapon.
Berserker: 2d12(2,12,24)+18+6+4= 30,40,52
Zealot: 1d12+9+3(13,18,24)+1d6+1(2,4,7)+2=17,24,33
Level 4:
Berserker: 2d12(2,12,24)+18+6+4= 30,40,52
Zealot: 1d12+9+3(13,18,24)+1d6+2(3,5,8)+2=18,25,34
Level 5:
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+27+9+6=45,57,69
Zealot: 2d12+18+6(26,36,48)+2d6+4(6,10,16)+4=36,50,68
Level 8:
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+27+9+6=45,57,69
Zealot: 2d12+18+6(26,36,48)+2d6+8(10,14,20)+4=40,54,72
Level 20:
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+27+9+12=51,66,84
Zealot: 2d12+18+6(26,36,48)+2d6+20(22,26,32)+8=56,70,88

By level 8 the damage changes back to be in the Zealot's favor, and at level 20 it's just a four point difference! Now let's throw feats into the equation

Level 3: No feat
Berserker: 2d12(2,12,24)+18(str)+6(axe)+4(rage)=30,40,52
Zealot: 1d12(1,6,12)+9(str)+3(axe)+1d6+1(2,4,7)+2(rage)=17 ,24,33
Level 4: Great Weapon Master
Berserker: 2d12(2,12,24)+18(str)+6(axe)+20(GWM)+4(rage)= 50,60,72
Zealot: 1d12(1,6,12)+9(Str)+3(axe)+10(GWM)+1d6+2(3,5,8)+2( rage)= 28,35,44
Level 5: Extra Attack+Great Weapon Master
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+6(rage)= 75,90,108
Zealot: 2d12(2,12,24)+18(str)+6(axe)+20(GWM)+2d6+4(6,10,16 )+4(rage)=56,70,88
Level 8: Great Weapon Master+Extra Attack+Polearm Master(bonus action attack at 1d4)
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+6(rage)= 75,90,108
Zealot: 2d10(2,10,20)+1d4(1,2,4)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+3d 6+12(15,21,30)+6= 84,99,126
Level 20: GMW, EA, PAM
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+12(rage)= 81,96,114
Zealot: 2d10(2,10,20)+1d4(1,2,4)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+3d 6+30(33,39,48)+12(rage)= 114,129,150

Because of PAM the Zealot massively overtakes the Berserker in damage, just the minimum does as much as the Berserker's max damage (If my math is off please let me know) Both sides can crit fish, and if the Berserker crits with all three attacks his base weapon damage jumps from 36 to 108(36+36+36) if you roll max damage, however this is crit fishing against a class that can also crit fish, and while it's lower than the Berserkers is, you probably aren't going to crit that often in ten turns in comparison to the times that the Zealot will crit by being a Zealot. I have a fix and did the math for it.
My Proposal is to let Extra attack proc off of the Frenzy attack and merge retaliation with Frenzy, and then make a separate level 14 ability for them to use, because Berserker doesn't have scaling, Zealot does... Here's the math of just one turn of Frenzy against Zealot with my proposed fix (at just level 20 as at this point it's getting obscene)

Level 20: (no bonuses)
Berserker: 4d12(4,24,48)+16=20,40,62
Zealot: 2d12(2,12,24)+2d6+20(22,26,32)+8=32,46,64
Level 20: (Belt of Storm Giant Strength, +3 weapon)
Berserker: 4d12(4,24,48)+36+12+16=68,88,112
Zealot: 2d12+18+6(26,36,48)+2d6+20(22,26,32)+8=56,70,88
Level 20: GMW, EA, PAM, Belt of Storm Giant Strength, +3 weapon.
Berserker: 4d12(4,24,48)+36(str)+12(axe)+40(GWM)+16(rage)=108 ,128,152
Zealot: 2d10(2,10,20)+1d4(1,2,4)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+3d 6+30(33,39,48)+12(rage)= 114,129,150

The max damage is 2 up from the Zealot's max, and everything else is lower still (but much closer) Granted this is at level 20 so I don't know where the change period is, but keep in mind that not everybody is going to get a Belt of Giant Strength, without it that +9 becomes a +7, which is a 6 point shift for both sides and we end up with similar numbers, unless it's my proposed fix then the Berserker loses out on 2 damage overall(losing 8 damage while the Zealot loses 6) putting the Berserker's max (with my fix) on par of the max damage of the Way of the Zealot Barbarian's max. And the Zealot barbarian doesn't get exhaustion when they use their feature because it's an onhit effect that scales with barbarian level. Again if the Berserker crits with any of these that number changes but I'm not counting crits as both can fish for them, the Zerker just has more attacks to fish with. So, is my fix considered to strong or to weak? or maybe it's just enough as it merges Retaliation with Frenzy, another way I can see working is to double rage damage while in frenzy and at 14 have it be tripled?

Edit: So it turns out that I was wrong in one massive way: I've been applying the Zealot's bonus damage to every attack instead of just one of them, I'll post the level 5 and 20 maths to see how close they actually are.

Level 5: Extra Attack+Great Weapon Master+Magical items (without my fix)
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+6(rage)= 75,90,108
Zealot: 2d12(2,12,24)+18(str)+6(axe)+20(GWM)+1d6+2(3,5,8)+ 4(rage)= 53,65,80
Level 20: GMW, EA, PAM, Magical items (without my fix)
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+12(rage)= 81,96,114
Zealot: 2d10(2,10,20)+1d4(1,2,4)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+1d 6+10(11,13,16)+12(rage)=80,103,128
End result, too close even then with midrange damage being higher than Berserker. I still think my fix would be good (some DM's allow Extra attack to proc off of the bonus action attack, but it's not explicitly said, and then sticking the retaliation on top of that would be good enough of a fix, as the only scaling the Berserker has is with magical items, GWM) but it wouldn't fix the exhaustion downside which makes this subclass unplayable past one frenzy a day, mainly because once you frenzy you can't roleplay effectively. What do I mean with that? You beat a boss and the guy you were protecting makes a suspicious remark and the barb is the only one to make the insight check with a nat 20... However since he has disadvantage he is forced to take the nat 1 instead of the 20. Now pair them up with a Klepto who knows that it's best to steal from the berserker after he frenzy'd because it'd be nearly impossible to get caught by said Zerker

[Man_Over_Game]

To make damage scaling a bit more equal between the two, as well as comparing the fact that the Zerker uses a Bonus Action each turn, I'd rewrite the Zealot to use Two Weapon Fighting. It'll also be a bit more gradual when considering Rage scaling, too.

For example:

Level 1:

Zerker: 2d12 + 4 = 17
Zealot: (1d6 +2)x2 + 1d6 = 14.5

Level 5:

Zerker: (1d12 + 2)x3 = 25.5
Zealot: (1d6 +2)x3 + 1d6 +2 = 22

Level 9:

Zerker: (1d12 + 3)x3 =28.5
Zealot: (1d6 +3)x3 + 1d6 + 4 = 27

[djreynolds]

This wonderful work.

I know at my table many players want to berserker because it gives you the Conan feel.

Totem is awesome as well, in most regards better.

Exhaustion is just such a huge penalty and the berserker hasn't even a save to make.

I like the idea of just placing the frenzy at 14th level and retaliation at 3rd, just flip them. This way a 14th level caster can just remedy exhaustion with greater restoration.

You can force march for 8 hours and pass your saves and not be exhausted.
But frenzy for 50 seconds and your spent.

Great stuff

[KingdomCody]

To make damage scaling a bit more equal between the two, as well as comparing the fact that the Zerker uses a Bonus Action each turn, I'd rewrite the Zealot to use Two Weapon Fighting. It'll also be a bit more gradual when considering Rage scaling, too.

For example:

Level 1:

Zerker: 2d12 + 4 = 17
Zealot: (1d6 +2)x2 + 1d6 = 14.5

Level 5:

Zerker: (1d12 + 2)x3 = 25.5
Zealot: (1d6 +2)x3 + 1d6 +2 = 22

Level 9:

Zerker: (1d12 + 3)x3 =28.5
Zealot: (1d6 +3)x3 + 1d6 + 4 = 27

I made an error, the 1d6+half barb level is only applied on one attack okay that's my bad, that cuts into the Zealot's damage by a lot and I'll have to recalculate it as I wrote it as that Divine Fury proc'd off of each attack (don't see why not, but it's what it says)


This wonderful work.

I know at my table many players want to berserker because it gives you the Conan feel.

Totem is awesome as well, in most regards better.

Exhaustion is just such a huge penalty and the berserker hasn't even a save to make.

I like the idea of just placing the frenzy at 14th level and retaliation at 3rd, just flip them. This way a 14th level caster can just remedy exhaustion with greater restoration.

You can force march for 8 hours and pass your saves and not be exhausted.
But frenzy for 50 seconds and your spent.

Great stuff

I didn't move Frenzy to 14 and Retaliation to 3, I merged the two abilities together and let Frenzy's bonus attack proc extra attack so instead of three attacks you get 4, I'll have to recalculate as I made an error myself
Edit: oh, you aren't saying that's what I did, that's what you did, that sounds fine, but the problem is that the Zerker doesn't scale past that extra attack, the Zealot scales with every other level as the damage does half of barb level on the first strike+1d6

[KingdomCody]

New math for Zealot damage:
Zealot: 2d10(2,10,20)+1d4(1,2,4)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+1d 6+10(11,14,20)+12(rage)= 80,104,122
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+12(rage)= 81,96,114
Minimum damage is higher, but everything else is still lower

[Man_Over_Game]

New math for Zealot damage:
Zealot: 2d10(2,10,20)+1d4(1,2,4)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+1d 6+10(11,14,20)+12(rage)= 80,104,122
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+12(rage)= 81,96,114
Minimum damage is higher, but everything else is still lower

To be fair, you're comparing the Zerker with 1 feat and the Zealot with 2 in that comparison, and you're also gauging only a level 20 comparison. I'd probably make your estimate around the level 6 range, as that's where most campaigns average out to, as well as when low-level and high-level builds start to level out.

[KingdomCody]

To be fair, you're comparing the Zerker with 1 feat and the Zealot with 2 in that comparison, and you're also gauging only a level 20 comparison. I'd probably make your estimate around the level 6 range, as that's where most campaigns average out to, as well as when low-level and high-level builds start to level out.

To be further fair, I am also using endgame equipment that definitely favors the Zerker, so let's tone it down a bit to level 6, 20STR, a +1 weapon, GWM. I expect it to be closer than the first estimates as ever point less of damage brings it lower to the Zealot's threshhold.

level 6
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+15(Str)+3(weapon)+6(rage)+30(GWM)=45 ,57,90
Zealot: 2d12(2,12,24)+1d6+3(4,6,9)+10(Str)+2(weapon)+4(rag e)+20(GWM)=42,54,69

That is a significant leap, that extra 1d6+3 I've was adding was doing a lot of work, this makes it a lot better, unsure if it's worth it as I was playing a Zerker myself and I only raged 4 times in the time he was alive, first was his introduction, second was because a party member woke him early by splashing water on him, a third because said party member lit him on fire in his sleep, and the fourth because i knew he was going to die. Across three sessions it was the third I realized that I couldn't keep frenzying even though it was part of his character.

[Man_Over_Game]

To be further fair, I am also using endgame equipment that definitely favors the Zerker, so let's tone it down a bit to level 6, 20STR, a +1 weapon, GWM. I expect it to be closer than the first estimates as ever point less of damage brings it lower to the Zealot's threshhold.

level 6
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+15(Str)+3(weapon)+6(rage)+30(GWM)=45 ,57,69
Zealot: 2d12(2,12,24)+1d6+3(4,6,9)+10(Str)+2(weapon)+4(rag e)+20(GWM)=42,54,69

The max damage ends up the same, holy wasn't expecting that.

The benefit of a powerful extra attack puts the damage in the Zerker's favor, similarly to how Two Weapon Fighting is strongest at early game compared to Two Handed Fighting. As the barbarian's grow in level, the Zealot will start to deal more damage, due to the fact that their bonus 1d6+ damage scales with half of their Barbarian level. At level 3, it's just a measly +1, but it becomes +10 by level 20, which is basically an extra attack.

[KingdomCody]

The benefit of a powerful extra attack puts the damage in the Zerker's favor, similarly to how Two Weapon Fighting is strongest at early game compared to Two Handed Fighting. As the barbarian's grow in level, the Zealot will start to deal more damage, due to the fact that their bonus 1d6+ damage scales with half of their Barbarian level. At level 3, it's just a measly +1, but it becomes +10 by level 20, which is basically an extra attack.

I agree, I redid the math and fixed the post as it turns out I was 29 below what it should have been, Zerker has more damage early but doesn't have scaling. I don't know if that's good game design or not as every subclass gets more powerful as the game goes on whereas the Zerker stagnates there and relies on his DM to make him stronger while naturally everyone else catches up and surpasses him. at level 8 I expect it to either be a full swing back towards the Zealot (as at 8 you get your second feat and it's going to be PAM) or close to it. With such a damage bump in the early levels it can be tempting, but if you're playing a level 20 campaign (which does happen) and you remember how strong the Zerker was at levels 3-8 as I doubt anyone can come close to 90 damage in one turn (max) but that's about it. Level 5 is the height of your scaling, until you hit 9 in which your rage damage goes up by one, and again at 16 when it becomes 4.

It comes down to how long the campaign is going to be and where you start I guess. I like starting at 3 as you can better set up your character with a subclass already, but results vary depending on what level you start and end on.

Levels 3-8 Zerker
Levels 9+ Zealot

My question then becomes, how do we make Frenzy scale so that it doesn't feel like the player is stagnating for over ten levels until they get Retaliation and suddenly they can do something else with their subclass (Not saying that Mindless Rage is bad, it's really good)

[Man_Over_Game]

I agree, I redid the math and fixed the post as it turns out I was 29 below what it should have been, Zerker has more damage early but doesn't have scaling. I don't know if that's good game design or not as every subclass gets more powerful as the game goes on whereas the Zerker stagnates there and relies on his DM to make him stronger while naturally everyone else catches up and surpasses him. at level 8 I expect it to either be a full swing back towards the Zealot (as at 8 you get your second feat and it's going to be PAM) or close to it. With such a damage bump in the early levels it can be tempting, but if you're playing a level 20 campaign (which does happen) and you remember how strong the Zerker was at levels 3-8 as I doubt anyone can come close to 90 damage in one turn (max) but that's about it. Level 5 is the height of your scaling, until you hit 9 in which your rage damage goes up by one, and again at 16 when it becomes 4.

It comes down to how long the campaign is going to be and where you start I guess. I like starting at 3 as you can better set up your character with a subclass already, but results vary depending on what level you start and end on.

Levels 3-8 Zerker
Levels 9+ Zealot

My question then becomes, how do we make Frenzy scale so that it doesn't feel like the player is stagnating for over ten levels until they get Retaliation and suddenly they can do something else with their subclass (Not saying that Mindless Rage is bad, it's really good)

Eh, my main concern has nothing to do with Frenzy's scaling. With GWM and Reckless Attack, you're looking about a +3xhit for Zerker, where Zealot gaining Polearm Master gets about +2xhit -1. Berserker has means of keeping up with these kinds of calculations.

The problem comes in when the Zealot can afford to use his feature in 3 fights a day at level 3, when the Zerker can only afford to use his feature in 1 fight per day.

Right off the bat, you're talking about the Zealot using his feature 3x more than the Zerker. Sure, the Berzerker can technically use his Frenzy feature more than that, but since he can only restore 1 Exhaustion per day, he'll quickly be unable to fight well (Exhaustion 3 imposes disadvantage on attacks and saving throws).

A simple fix could be to allow the Zerker to lose one stack of Exhaustion every time he Rages, which means that he'd be at Exhaustion 1 out of combat, which suits a Zerker. Other than that, I don't see too many reasons to buff the Zerker up more. At higher levels, the Zealot shines, but the Zerker doesn't fall too far behind.

[KingdomCody]

Eh, my main concern has nothing to do with Frenzy's scaling. With GWM and Reckless Attack, you're looking about a +3xhit for Zerker, where Zealot gaining Polearm Master gets about +2xhit -1. Berserker has means of keeping up with these kinds of calculations.

The problem comes in when the Zealot can afford to use his feature in 3 fights a day at level 3, when the Zerker can only afford to use his feature in 1 fight per day.

Right off the bat, you're talking about the Zealot using his feature 3x more than the Zerker. Sure, the Berzerker can technically use his Frenzy feature more than that, but since he can only restore 1 Exhaustion per day, he'll quickly be unable to fight well (Exhaustion 3 imposes disadvantage on attacks and saving throws).

A simple fix could be to allow the Zerker to lose one stack of Exhaustion every time he Rages, which means that he'd be at Exhaustion 1 out of combat, which suits a Zerker. Other than that, I don't see too many reasons to buff the Zerker up more. At higher levels, the Zealot shines, but the Zerker doesn't fall too far behind.

A fix I can see is allowing to burn hit die during short rest, roll a 1d4 and if you roll equal to or lower than your exhaustion lower it by one? only usable once per short rest
But your fix can work as well, but I think it can be abusable as you can rage the amount of times you have available before taking a rest to get it all back

[Man_Over_Game]

A fix I can see is allowing to burn hit die during short rest, roll a 1d4 and if you roll equal to or lower than your exhaustion lower it by one? only usable once per short rest
But your fix can work as well, but I think it can be abusable as you can rage the amount of times you have available before taking a rest to get it all back

Ah, valid point. Maybe tack it on to Frenzy itself? So that way, you only lose Exhaustion when you plan on getting it back.

As for a fix for the Berserker to feel more awesome altogether, I just thought of something:

"When you suffering from Exhaustion, your body is numb and feels less pain and causes you to have resistance to all non-magical damage."

Combined, this creates an interesting balance of suffering more damage while Raging, and causing the Barbarian to consider fighting outside of Rage in certain scenarios. His damage will be less when not raging, but this could be beneficial for some niche situations, like walking through fire, suffering fall damage, or many other situations. It sounds good, but it's no better than just Raging, and would cause players to feel rewarded for using such a risky mechanic like Exhaustion.

[KingdomCody]

Ah, valid point. Maybe tack it on to Frenzy itself? So that way, you only lose Exhaustion when you plan on getting it back.

That would defeat the purpose of the Frenzy debuff, if you frenzy you gain a level of exhaustion, but if you frenzy you also lose a stack of exhaustion? so do you just stay stuck at one level of exhaustion? Wouldn't be bad as it means you aren't good out of combat until you get a rest, but it also doesn't hamper your combat abilities... for the most part (athletics/acrobatics to navigate rough terrain and such)

[Blood of Gaea]

Another thing to consider, you can whiff your bonus action attack, but your Zealot damage is applied as long as any of your attacks land. It also deals a pretty useful damage type.

[Man_Over_Game]

That would defeat the purpose of the Frenzy debuff, if you frenzy you gain a level of exhaustion, but if you frenzy you also lose a stack of exhaustion? so do you just stay stuck at one level of exhaustion? Wouldn't be bad as it means you aren't good out of combat until you get a rest, but it also doesn't hamper your combat abilities... for the most part (athletics/acrobatics to navigate rough terrain and such)

Yup! That's exactly the plan.

Using the Zealot as a comparison, the Zealot does almost identical damage with no disadvantages, and also has an additional level 3 feature (of being resurrected for free). Being at a constant state of Exhaustion seems like a perfect solution, since it means the Berserker is more susceptible to Exhaustion from other means (as Exhaustion gets worse the more you get).

Additionally, the Zealot's damage difference is made up due to the fact that the Zealot deals "exotic" damage typing, with Necrotic or Radiant, which is rarely resistant or immune. Generally, a damage die of those types is worth +1-+2 more than other types of damage. 1d6 (3.5) Radiant Damage is worth about a 1d8 (4.5) or a 1d10 (5.5) in Slashing/Bludgeoning/Piercing.

This is actually a good thing in the Zerker's favor. The Zealot being better means that more benefits can be thrown at the Berserker.

Ask yourself, if you made those changes to the Berserker, would people stop picking Bear Totem or Zealot? If the answer is No, then it's still well within the balance threshold. For something to be "balanced', it just has to be worse than the best thing and better than the worst thing.

[Particle_Man]

Exhaustion is just such a huge penalty and the berserker hasn't even a save to make.

This is why someday I want to play a DMG NPC as PC undead skeleton berserker - they are immune to exhaustion of all types (poison too!). The vulnerability to bludgeoning damage is a downside, admittedly.

[intregus]

What about removing the exhaustion penalty at level 6, 10, or 14? Or do it gradually.

Option 1
level 6-you can make a con save at the end of the rage DC15? On a success no exhaustion

level 10 you don't gain exhaustion at all?

Option 2
Level 6-your exhaustion goes away on a short rest.

Level 10- you don't gain exhaustion at all?

[KingdomCody]

What about removing the exhaustion penalty at level 6, 10, or 14? Or do it gradually.

Option 1
level 6-you can make a con save at the end of the rage DC15? On a success no exhaustion

level 10 you don't gain exhaustion at all?

Option 2
Level 6-your exhaustion goes away on a short rest.

Level 10- you don't gain exhaustion at all?

There are other ways to accrue exhaustion that don't involve Frenzying, which means that adding a way for the Zerker to remove exhaustion means that he can force march for 8 hours, short rest and potentially remove the exhaustion and then force march again for eight hours and rinse and repeat.

With that in mind, why not make Frenzy have a daily charge? or have some other penalty that doesn't result in the Berserker's death/crippling? This really is a pickle to try and balance because Exhaustion removal isn't just a combat mechanic but also an RP mechanic. The more I think about it the more I like the DC, DC 5*amount of frenzies that day? or 10+5*Frenzies that day? Takes further advantage of the capstone the Barbarian gets at 20 (+4 to con)

[Shuruke]

My fix for a player was

All levels of exaughstion go away on a short or long rest.

He had a blast with it and it made a bit more sense.

[Eragon123]

I really like another viewpoint of the frenzy barbarian fix.

And I appreciate you doing all of the math to give a clear readout.

My approach to the frenzy barbarian was to give them additional path features that related to exhaustion. These could easily be rewritten in the 3rd level ability if you didn't mind making it longer.

Path of the Berserker
-Method to the Madness
You learn to push past the pain when you frenzy.*
Lv 4: While raging you do not feel the effects of exhaustion.
-Hardened Warrior
You are so used to pushing your body to the edge and recovering that you are
especially adept at doing so.*
Lv 5: When you spend a hit die on a short rest, it also recovers 1 level of exhaustion.

[KorvinStarmast]

Frenzy isn't the problem.
The exhaustion mechanic is the problem.
Allow one level reduced after a short rest
or
Allow one level reduced after casting Lesser Restoration.

[thereaper]

Berserker is okay if you're doing what most groups do and only having 1-2 encounters per day. Otherwise, just use Zealot.

[JackPhoenix]

Frenzy isn't the problem.
The exhaustion mechanic is the problem.
Allow one level reduced after a short rest
or
Allow one level reduced after casting Lesser Restoration.

Well, Frenzy is a problem in a game where other means of getting BA attacks (PAM, TWF) because you can get most of the benefit of Frenzy (well, you'll have smaller weapon damage die for the BA attack) and get whatever other benefit your subclass grants.

[thereaper]

It's also worth noting that Frenzy is not the primary feature of Berserker; Mindless Rage is. Some would argue Zealot's equivalent is better (it applies to all saves, not only some of them), but Mindless Rage is 100% reliable at what it does. That's why you play that subclass.

Or, if it's a featless game. Or if you're only doing a 3-4 level dip. Or if you're doing 1-2 encounters per day.

Really, though, we all know Totem Warrior is the best option simply because of its rituals (to say nothing of its main features). If you're considering anything other than that, then you've already thrown optimization out the window, so it no longer matters if Zealot is better than Berserker.

[LudicSavant]

Always good to see people doing some math. :smallsmile:

A couple additional factors:
- Zealot bonus damage gets applied if any of your attacks hit, while the extra damage for the Frenzy Barb only applies if that specific attack hits. This has an influence on the DPR math that isn't reflected in the OP (in the Zealot Barbarian's favor).
- The Zealot can apply their bonus damage on the turn they begin to rage, while a Frenzy Barbarian can't.

[Skylivedk]

To OP, I'd love a rewrite of your change in more concise language.

It's it supposed to mean:
When you use frenzy, you very the Extra Attack as if you had one more Extra Attack than you currently do?

Or you get both the bonus action attack and one more when you use the Attack action

Or

Your bonus action gives two attacks?

In any case, I suggest giving the Frenzy Barbarian a Con save DC 15 on each short rest to remove a an exhaustion level. The DC increases with 5 for each time you use it pr. day and resets to DC 15 after a long rest.

The fact that it gives out of combat utility to grizzled warriors is just icing on the cake IMO. It's very much in line with myths about Starkodder (who goes days without proper sleep) and Thor.

[VonKaiserstein]

There is an extreme, but totally effective workaround in the DMG, page 282.

Your race is skeleton. You are immune to exhaustion, and Frenzy all day long like a boss. With point buy, you're 15/17/15/4/8/4.

Sure, you're vulnerable to bludgeoning, but that will be counteracted by Rage most times.

You also have some built in storage. Who needs a backpack when you can keep most items in your chest?

In order not to scare the locals, you need only get a pair of whitish rocks, paint a black dot on them and pop them in your eye sockets- the looser the better. You now have googly eyes.

The final touch is a name... Bonan the Barbarian.

For when you absolutely love to frenzy, and don't care about anything else.

[Joe the Rat]

I'm rather partial to "Ignore Exhaustion while Raging." Your out-of-combat, and eventually in-combat effectiveness will suffer if you use your ace-in-the-hole too much, but when you do your thing, you still shine.

Plus this gets you to where you can be effective enough to Frenzy yourself to death - which feels somehow appropriate.

[clash]

Honestly if combats average 4 rounds in length, then the barbarian at level 3 is getting 9 bonus action attacks per day, war cleric at level 5 can have have of them and this is thought of as a weak ability. I would just remove the exhaustion and it is fine. Polarm master gives unlimited bonus actions as it is. If you think that is too strong then make it a d4 damage dice regardless of weapon type if you want and call it good but even that seems unnecessary.

Ie:
Frenzy
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. The weapon's damage die for this attack is a d4.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm rather partial to "Ignore Exhaustion while Raging." Your out-of-combat, and eventually in-combat effectiveness will suffer if you use your ace-in-the-hole too much, but when you do your thing, you still shine.

Plus this gets you to where you can be effective enough to Frenzy yourself to death - which feels somehow appropriate.

The issue there is that you're still allowed to use one Frenzy per day on average, since you only remove one Exhaustion stack per day. Yes, you can use Frenzy 3 times a day for 2 days straight, but then you can't adventure for the next week. This is before including any other sources of Exhaustion, which the Zealot wouldn't care about (because low levels of Exhaustion don't impact combat prowess much).

The Frenzy Barbarian does enough damage in a single fight, but the reason people don't take it is sustainability. You can only fully participate in an average of 1 fight per day, and ignoring Exhaustion doesn't fix that.

[KingdomCody]

To OP, I'd love a rewrite of your change in more concise language.

It's it supposed to mean:
When you use frenzy, you very the Extra Attack as if you had one more Extra Attack than you currently do?

Or you get both the bonus action attack and one more when you use the Attack action

Or

Your bonus action gives two attacks?

In any case, I suggest giving the Frenzy Barbarian a Con save DC 15 on each short rest to remove a an exhaustion level. The DC increases with 5 for each time you use it pr. day and resets to DC 15 after a long rest.

The fact that it gives out of combat utility to grizzled warriors is just icing on the cake IMO. It's very much in line with myths about Starkodder (who goes days without proper sleep) and Thor.

Merge Retaliation with Frenzy, then allow Extra attack to proc off of the Frenzy bonus attack action so at level 5 you get four attacks, that was my proposed fix, but now we've shifted from damage as I was actually wrong in how the Zealot worked, I thought the bonus damage proc's off of every attack, not just one so I'll edit the main post to include the new revelation

[N810]

My DM's fix was just to adjust exhaustion,
"Taking a long rest removes all levels of exhaustion."


Ps. did you add retaliation to the berserkers calculation the first post ?

Pps. you might consider that most are going to take sentinel as well, for an almost guaranteed 4th attack.

[Particle_Man]

This is why someday I want to play a DMG NPC as PC undead skeleton berserker - they are immune to exhaustion of all types (poison too!). The vulnerability to bludgeoning damage is a downside, admittedly.


There is an extreme, but totally effective workaround in the DMG, page 282.

Your race is skeleton. You are immune to exhaustion, and Frenzy all day long like a boss. With point buy, you're 15/17/15/4/8/4.

Sure, you're vulnerable to bludgeoning, but that will be counteracted by Rage most times.

You also have some built in storage. Who needs a backpack when you can keep most items in your chest?

In order not to scare the locals, you need only get a pair of whitish rocks, paint a black dot on them and pop them in your eye sockets- the looser the better. You now have googly eyes.

The final touch is a name... Bonan the Barbarian.

For when you absolutely love to frenzy, and don't care about anything else.

Skeleton Berserker Ninja! :smallbiggrin:

[alchahest]

ultimately I look at it like this:

PAM: BA attack but only D4, gain ability to opportunity attack when enemies enter reach. Cost: one ASI

Frenzy: BA attack, conceivably at D12 (if using greataxe). Cost: one level of exhaustion, even if you've don't get the opportunity to use the BA attack (first round you're BAing to rage - by the end of your second round the fight could be over, or any number of other reasons you don't get to use it)

it looks like the best way to be a frenzy barbarian is to be a totem zealot barb and use PAM. D4+str+rage + D6+half level, and without imposing a cost no other class has to deal with. it's not a perfect comparison, as the frenzy barb has an additional ASI they aren't spending on PAM, but, the cost of using the subclass ability is so much that you're only likely to see them use it once per long rest. which, again, might end up being a complete waste.

My fix would be: when you frenzy, gain a level of exhaustion OR spend a hit die. this still leaves them more vulnerable than tanky totem barbs and easy to resurrect zealots, but doesn't impose penalties on the entire rest of the play. (seriously if they frenzy they are worse at grappling for the rest of the day. And worse at things like history, intimidation, persuasion, initiative, perception, etc). and if they frenzy a second time, they drop to being the slowest member in any party. any more than that and you're using reckless attack just to not be fighting at disadvantage.

Exhaustion is a bad mechanic to tie to a class feature you want your players to be excited about.

[stoutstien]

ultimately I look at it like this:

PAM: BA attack but only D4, gain ability to opportunity attack when enemies enter reach. Cost: one ASI

Frenzy: BA attack, conceivably at D12 (if using greataxe). Cost: one level of exhaustion, even if you've don't get the opportunity to use the BA attack (first round you're BAing to rage - by the end of your second round the fight could be over, or any number of other reasons you don't get to use it)

it looks like the best way to be a frenzy barbarian is to be a totem zealot barb and use PAM. D4+str+rage + D6+half level, and without imposing a cost no other class has to deal with. it's not a perfect comparison, as the frenzy barb has an additional ASI they aren't spending on PAM, but, the cost of using the subclass ability is so much that you're only likely to see them use it once per long rest. which, again, might end up being a complete waste.

My fix would be: when you frenzy, gain a level of exhaustion OR spend a hit die. this still leaves them more vulnerable than tanky totem barbs and easy to resurrect zealots, but doesn't impose penalties on the entire rest of the play. (seriously if they frenzy they are worse at grappling for the rest of the day. And worse at things like history, intimidation, persuasion, initiative, perception, etc). and if they frenzy a second time, they drop to being the slowest member in any party. any more than that and you're using reckless attack just to not be fighting at disadvantage.

Exhaustion is a bad mechanic to tie to a class feature you want your players to be excited about.
I've used the hit die idea to counter the frenzy and it works well for a quick fix.
The problem I have is that frenzy shoe horns the player into using a 2hd weapon that isn't a pole arm which bugs me.
An idea

Frenzy- at third lv you can choose to go into a frenzy when you rage. For the duration of the rage you gain an additional action on each of your turns. This action can only be used to take the attack(one weapon attack only) or dash.
When your rage ends you must expend a barbarian hit die or suffer one level of exhaustion.

Mindless rage- same as phb

Intimidating presence- same as phb but can use str instead of Cha for modifier to fear.

Retaliation-same as phb

[KingdomCody]

I've used the hit die idea to counter the frenzy and it works well for a quick fix.
The problem I have is that frenzy shoe horns the player into using a 2hd weapon that isn't a pole arm which bugs me.
An idea

Frenzy- at third lv you can choose to go into a frenzy when you rage. For the duration of the rage you gain an additional action on each of your turns. This action can only be used to take the attack(one weapon attack only) or dash.
When your rage ends you must expend a barbarian hit die or suffer one level of exhaustion.

Mindless rage- same as phb

Intimidating presence- same as phb but can use str instead of Cha for modifier to fear.

Retaliation-same as phb

Hit Dice or exhaustion, I think that's a fair trade as one is short term regen or long term recovery, only issue is lategame when you have lots of hit dice, but maybe I'm underestimating how many you end up using when you take a short rest later on

[stoutstien]

Hit Dice or exhaustion, I think that's a fair trade as one is short term regen or long term recovery, only issue is lategame when you have lots of hit dice, but maybe I'm underestimating how many you end up using when you take a short rest later on
I think the exhaustion on the beserker it's such a glaring issue it covers up all the other issues in the subclass.
-PaM gives a weaker but free ba attack and a reaction attack that will be available at least once or twice a fight.
-barbarians are notoriously stat dependent and don't really have a lot of points to spare for a high charisma on top of everything else.
-Mindless rage is a pretty decent feature but it's same time it's completely possible that it never comes up an entire campaign. Fear resistance and immunities is common to aquire and charm isn't a condition at players run into a lot.

Retaliation flat out doesn't work with reach/ranged weapons. The five foot limit is a huge issue later on when most of the things you're fighting are large or larger and have reach. Same issue hunter rangers giant killer feature has.

Exhaustion is bad but if that was the only bad feature of the subclass it could still be a good subclass. the problem is there's really not a good future in the whole subclass.

[KingdomCody]

I think the exhaustion on the beserker it's such a glaring issue it covers up all the other issues in the subclass.
-PaM gives a weaker but free ba attack and a reaction attack that will be available at least once or twice a fight.
-barbarians are notoriously stat dependent and don't really have a lot of points to spare for a high charisma on top of everything else.
-Mindless rage is a pretty decent feature but it's same time it's completely possible that it never comes up an entire campaign. Fear resistance and immunities is common to aquire and charm isn't a condition at players run into a lot.

Retaliation flat out doesn't work with reach/ranged weapons. The five foot limit is a huge issue later on when most of the things you're fighting are large or larger and have reach. Same issue hunter rangers giant killer feature has.

Exhaustion is bad but if that was the only bad feature of the subclass it could still be a good subclass. the problem is there's really not a good future in the whole subclass.

Intimidating presence should be Strength based, you can already roll for intimidation mid combat (I've done so a few times) and it has the same effect, only difference is that it allows intimidation in combat mechanically, but most players let rolls mid combat so long as it's not to breaking, like a perception vs stealth, insight vs deception, etc. Intimidation already uses charisma, why should the Zerker have another intimidation ability when it's also charisma? I guess to guarantee the fear effect?

Retaliation is overrated, which is why I didn't include it in the calculations. People think that you can just have it proc every turn, which it can be true but what happens when they have reach just like what you said, or teleport and use spells? suddenly that lvl 14 feature becomes useless. I think it should just be a counter attack reaction with the weapon you have equipped and use it's range and properties. Does that mean it should proc off of a spell if you are using a long bow? why not? Off the top of my head I can't think of any subclass that lets you have a reaction attack upon getting hit. If it's still weak why not give it a dc 10 per attack (increase by 5 per attack) to be able to use retaliation again after each strike.

Heck why not have Frenzy follow the same logic? every attack you make while in frenzy you can make a roll of 5(or 10)+5 to dc per successful attack that turn to make another attack so long as the previous one hits instead of giving a simple bonus action attack, that can proc off of the bonus action attack, and if you make twice or more (at 14 it becomes triple) only then you get a stack of exhaustion, but rolling a nat one on any of these bonus rolls automatically gives you exhaustion?

Someone play with this and tell me how it feels, I'm genuinely curious. It puts a limit before you get your Exhaustion but always at the risk of getting exhaustion mid fight, but lets the Zerker go nova more readily with some risk vs reward

[TyGuy]

Problem: Exhaustion is prohibitively restrictive.
Proposed fix: I want to use a mechanic called "fatigue" which functions as temporary exhaustion. Each level works as the corresponding level of exhaustion but all levels of fatigue are removed upon a short or long rest. HOWEVER, upon reaching a level of exhaustion, all levels of fatigue are converted to levels of exhaustion so the player still has to be mindful of that.


Problem:There's no love for dual wield berserker barbarians.
Proposed fis: When a character is frenzied and dual wielding weapons it can use its bonus action to make two attacks instead of one.

[N810]

@KingdomCody

Intimidating presence should be Strength based,
(yep) or just replaced with something more useful.

Retaliation is overrated, which is why I didn't include it in the calculations. People think that you can just have it proc every turn, which it can be true but what happens when they have reach just like what you said, or teleport and use spells?
just calculate it working about 1/2 the time.

Heck why not have Frenzy follow the same logic? every attack you make while in frenzy you can make a roll of 5(or 10)+5 to dc per successful attack that turn to make another attack so long as the previous one hits instead of giving a simple bonus action attack, that can proc off of the bonus action attack, and if you make twice or more (at 14 it becomes triple) only then you get a stack of exhaustion, but rolling a nat one on any of these bonus rolls automatically gives you exhaustion?
interesting idea

Someone play with this and tell me how it feels, I'm genuinely curious. It puts a limit before you get your Exhaustion but always at the risk of getting exhaustion mid fight,
most of the zerkers abilities offset levels of exhaustion, (reckless attack offsets disadvantage, advantage on dex offsets disadvantage, ect..)

[Blood of Gaea]

Someone play with this and tell me how it feels, I'm genuinely curious. It puts a limit before you get your Exhaustion but always at the risk of getting exhaustion mid fight,
most of the zerkers abilities offset levels of exhaustion, (reckless attack offsets disadvantage, advantage on dex offsets disadvantage, ect..)
That's not really true. Any other Barbarian would be benefiting from those things, a berserker is merely mitigating some downsides, and only some of them.

[ruy343]

In building off of some suggestions already herein, would it truly break the game to have a frenzy barbarian be able to overcome non-rage exhaustion faster than an average person? After all, Constitution is one of the Barbarian's main stats, so you better believe that they're tougher than most.

Perhaps, as a level 3 feature, include the ability:

Bezerker's Recovery
As part of a short rest, you may remove one level of exhaustion. You may do this a number of times per long rest equal to half your constitution modifier (round down, minimum once per long rest).

Does this mean that a high-constitution Barbarian can forced march for multiple days on end? Yes. Does that fit the flavor of being a super-tough stack of muscular meat? Absolutely. Is it more broken than the ability to cast third-level spells? I'd argue no.

[N810]

True, just thought I'd point it out,
since it often gets over looked.

[Nidgit]

I definitely agree that the Exhaustion focus, while obnoxious, obscures the other problem that Frenzy just isn't that impressive. Berserker is essentially supposed to be something of a nova barbarian, but it can't nova hard enough to make things really worth it.

My suggestion would be to say that going into a Frenzy doubles your rage bonus to damage. That's only an additional 2 damage when you get it, but eventually scales up to potentially 12 extra damage per turn at high level.

I'd also make Frenzy a little more frequent at high levels too. My two thoughts are either adding one Exhaustion-free use per day at Level 10 or changing Frenzy to only inflict a level of Exhaustion every other Frenzy at Level 14.

[KingdomCody]

I definitely agree that the Exhaustion focus, while obnoxious, obscures the other problem that Frenzy just isn't that impressive. Berserker is essentially supposed to be something of a nova barbarian, but it can't nova hard enough to make things really worth it.

My suggestion would be to say that going into a Frenzy doubles your rage bonus to damage. That's only an additional 2 damage when you get it, but eventually scales up to potentially 12 extra damage per turn at high level.

I'd also make Frenzy a little more frequent at high levels too. My two thoughts are either adding one Exhaustion-free use per day at Level 10 or changing Frenzy to only inflict a level of Exhaustion every other Frenzy at Level 14.

It looks really good, but once you hit level 5 that's your damage cap, you don't get any better damage wise, Mindless rage keeps you from turning on your allies and Retaliation is a worse Tunnel Fighter (granted it's unearthed arcana, it allows for any reaction attack against things that move into your reach) Whereas everyone is progressing the Zerker keeps their stagnation, most feats don't work with what a Berserker wants to do, which is to hit all the things a lot of times, but there's only so much a single extra attack can do. A fighter gets extra attack 4 at level 20 in addition to a lot of other goodies (Fighter and Barbarian fulfill different roles, I just wanted to make the comparison) And as my corrected math shows, a level 20 Berserker with the same feats as a Zealot (being PAM and GWM) does equal damage with frenzy active to a zealot that's been doing the same consistently the everywhere else

[djreynolds]

If you put retaliation at 3rd level, its reaction attack if you get hit and take damage and a good power..... but not out of line with BM's riposte (which requires a miss), or sentinel's reaction.

Take frenzy and place it at 14th level, and now fixing exhaustion is easier

Seriously, flip them and it might work out better

[stoutstien]

If you put retaliation at 3rd level, its reaction attack if you get hit and take damage and a good power..... but not out of line with BM's riposte (which requires a miss), or sentinel's reaction.

Take frenzy and place it at 14th level, and now fixing exhaustion is easier

Seriously, flip them and it might work out better
The sad thing is yes the lv 14 subclass feature could be moved to lv 3 and it would be fine.
I think that may be a good place to start to unsuck this subclass

[El_Jairo]

ultimately I look at it like this:

PAM: BA attack but only D4, gain ability to opportunity attack when enemies enter reach. Cost: one ASI

Frenzy: BA attack, conceivably at D12 (if using greataxe). Cost: one level of exhaustion, even if you've don't get the opportunity to use the BA attack (first round you're BAing to rage - by the end of your second round the fight could be over, or any number of other reasons you don't get to use it)

it looks like the best way to be a frenzy barbarian is to be a totem zealot barb and use PAM. D4+str+rage + D6+half level, and without imposing a cost no other class has to deal with. it's not a perfect comparison, as the frenzy barb has an additional ASI they aren't spending on PAM, but, the cost of using the subclass ability is so much that you're only likely to see them use it once per long rest. which, again, might end up being a complete waste.

My fix would be: when you frenzy, gain a level of exhaustion OR spend a hit die. this still leaves them more vulnerable than tanky totem barbs and easy to resurrect zealots, but doesn't impose penalties on the entire rest of the play. (seriously if they frenzy they are worse at grappling for the rest of the day. And worse at things like history, intimidation, persuasion, initiative, perception, etc). and if they frenzy a second time, they drop to being the slowest member in any party. any more than that and you're using reckless attack just to not be fighting at disadvantage.

Exhaustion is a bad mechanic to tie to a class feature you want your players to be excited about.


I've used the hit die idea to counter the frenzy and it works well for a quick fix.
The problem I have is that frenzy shoe horns the player into using a 2hd weapon that isn't a pole arm which bugs me.
An idea

Frenzy- at third lv you can choose to go into a frenzy when you rage. For the duration of the rage you gain an additional action on each of your turns. This action can only be used to take the attack(one weapon attack only) or dash.
When your rage ends you must expend a barbarian hit die or suffer one level of exhaustion.

Mindless rage- same as phb

Intimidating presence- same as phb but can use str instead of Cha for modifier to fear.

Retaliation-same as phb


The sad thing is yes the lv 14 subclass feature could be moved to lv 3 and it would be fine.
I think that may be a good place to start to unsuck this subclass

These are some good points made here. Especially stoutstien's remark that you could switch around the Lvl 14 subclass feature with the lvl 3 one, seems unreal. Normally lvl 14 should be that good, that you are looking forward to it.

So here are my brief suggestions for fixing the deal:
Lvl3 Frenzy:
I would allow for a CON save DC 13 (+5 per successful save that day) to avoid gaining a level of fatigue.
At level 3 With CON Bonus +3 and +2 Proficiency, this has 60% on succes on the first Frenzy and 35% chance on the second Frenzy. So this would allow the number of times you can use Frenzy a day increase by chance.

If you are dual wielding, Frenzy allows to make an extra attack with your main weapon if you use your BA for second hand attack.

I would consider to allow 1,5x (round up) rage bonus damage during a Frenzy to give it a little more umpf, but only from level 10
Lvl 6 Mindless rage- same as PHB

Lvl 10 Intimidating Presence:
same as PHB but can use CON instead of CHA for modifier to fear DC and you need a long rest to reset after target has broken out of the fear.

I could totally see a additional feature here, which allows for extra Exhaustion reduction. Strong Build:
Once per short rest you can spend any number of Hit dice to try to remove one level of exhaustion. CON save (+4 per hit die spend after the first) vs DC 15.

Your presence is more CON based (IMHO) and it rewards maxing out CON more as you'll make your Frenzy saves more often.

Lvl 14 Retaliation
Allows to make any melee or thrown weapon attack as a reaction when you are hit and take damage.

So it allows you to throw a javelin or spear as a reaction or pick up a stone or improvised weapon to hurl at a wizard harassing you.

Drawing a bow as a reaction, seems not very barbarian like and far too calculated for a rage filled warrior.

[MadBear]

For the sake of keeping things simple, what if there was just a small tweek?

Frenzy: When you rage, you may use your bonus action to perform one additional attack when you take the attack action. Additionally, you may take a level of exhaustion to perform the bonus attack during the turn in which you rage.


Basically, a Frenzy barb is already losing a whole turn before they can even turn on the extra attack. So let them either use it turn 1, but they gain exhaustion, or they can use it turn 2 with 0 penalty.

[stoutstien]

For the sake of keeping things simple, what if there was just a small tweek?

Frenzy: When you rage, you may use your bonus action to perform one additional attack when you take the attack action. Additionally, you may take a level of exhaustion to perform the bonus attack during the turn in which you rage.


Basically, a Frenzy barb is already losing a whole turn before they can even turn on the extra attack. So let them either use it turn 1, but they gain exhaustion, or they can use it turn 2 with 0 penalty.
good a fix as any. Still shoe horns the subclass for weapon choice and so forth.
I think as they did with the phb ranger the new zelot path IS the fix for berserker.

[KingdomCody]

good a fix as any. Still shoe horns the subclass for weapon choice and so forth.
I think as they did with the phb ranger the new zelot path IS the fix for berserker.

I know what the Zealot bit is, but what about the Ranger that would make for a fix to Berserker?

[stoutstien]

I know what the Zealot bit is, but what about the Ranger that would make for a fix to Berserker?
Sorry for being unclear. the Xan ranger subclasses are kind of like a back door fix to the player handbook ranger. in the same way that zelot is kind of like a better berserker.

Expanded spell list the counter the fact that they're memorize spellcaster

Better subclass features to fix weaker parts in the base class

[KingdomCody]

Sorry for being unclear. the Xan ranger subclasses are kind of like a back door fix to the player handbook ranger. in the same way that zelot is kind of like a better berserker.

Expanded spell list the counter the fact that they're memorize spellcaster

Better subclass features to fix weaker parts in the base class

I don't think that the Barbarian class period should be a spellcaster class (deticated slots) if any subclass would have spells it would have been the zealot... I think