Dawn Caste Solars are misunderstood.

[lightningcat]

It occured to me that Dawn caste Solars are misunderstood by gamers. Not just the players, but by the designers too. They are presented as being the combat characters, in fact that is the only thing that they are presented as being.
But they are not just fighters and stratigists, they are problem solvers. They do not create solutions, they do not unravel the issues that created the problem. They simply find the problem and solve it, usually with violence because that usually works.
Hercules is a prime example of a Dawncaste Solar. Each of his 12 labors was solved in a brutally straight forward manner, violence was always considered as the first option, but was not always used. Swords don't work against a monster, strangle it and use its claws to skin it. Need to clean out stables, reroute a river through it. Need to undo a knot, just cut it (Ceaser, not Hercules).

What does everyone else think?

[Lord Raziere]

An interesting viewpoint. I'm glad I found it.

Dawn Castes do tend towards the "short term, immediate problem" end of the spectrum of Solars. none of their skills do anything of longer term value.

Eclipse and Twilight Castes on the other end are pretty much entirely about long term solutions and fixing the issues behind them, as well as creating solutions.

Night and Zenith are somewhere in between, though Zenith with their flashy social antics tends toward the short term and Nights with their subtlety, trickery and smarts tends towards longer term ones.

Such an interpretation would help with say, putting in something like Athletics as a Caste ability for Dawns as some of what you can do in those examples are feats of strength and speed, and I am disappointed that Dawns don't get Athletics as something they can Supernal, because such physical prowess seems exactly the kind of thing you'd want a divine warrior capable of doing as a general tool set rather than the specialized weapon stuff they do get.

so yeah, Dawn Castes being short term problem solvers makes sense.

[rel]

I think that real mistake is insisting that caste should constrain a character at all.
Any solar can become superhumanly good at any skill quite trivially, the true force shaping a character should be their goals and personality not the specific shape of their caste mark.

But I only ever played 2e , maybe things have changed.

[Lord Raziere]

nope castes are still in place in 3e, but it sounds like Casteless Lunars will be for you rel: they're the only Exalt so far that gets to reject castes all together and be the most flexible people they can be, and in 3e they don't have any of the 2e's horrible downsides of being casteless attached to it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

To be fair, it would be pretty easy to move away from Castes in 3e. If I remember correctly, the only major limit it puts on your character is that your Supernal skill has to be a Caste skill, not one of your other favored skills--strike that rule and you're golden.

[lightningcat]

I think that real mistake is insisting that caste should constrain a character at all.
Any solar can become superhumanly good at any skill quite trivially, the true force shaping a character should be their goals and personality not the specific shape of their caste mark.

But I only ever played 2e , maybe things have changed.

I am saying that Castes should be treated as part and parcel of the personality of the Solar. Dawns are blunt-force characters, in personality and in deed. Nights are working the angles of any problem, social, mental, or physical. Zeniths know themselves first and foremost, they do what they believe in. Twilights are thinkers. Eclises are communicaters.

For example: Captain America is a very combat heavy character, but I would say he would not be Dawn, but a Zenith. Because he follows his beliefs, and expects everyone else to follow him. Hawkeye (movie version) is stealth oriented and has lots of non-combat abilities, but he deals with the problem in front of him and doesn't overly worry about the next thing. He would be Dawn-caste.
Alternatively, you could build early Batman and Ironman using the same stats, but Batman is Night while Ironman is Twilight because of their personalities.

[Lord Raziere]

hm.

I would indeed put Captain America as a Zenith- a Zenith with Athletics or Resistance Supernal, but a Zenith nonetheless. a Shield isn't exactly an offensive weapon.

I would also say most shonen-aimed heroes like Naruto, Luffy or Deku are Zeniths. because often being the best fighter isn't their most outstanding trait, but their ability to inspire others and redeem their enemies to be better with their beliefs. except for Goku, he doesn't actually care about inspiring people he just likes fighting so he is a Dawn. similarly Superman isn't a Dawn caste despite his strength: his stories are all about he a paragon of goodness and how he needs to use his power wisely. I'd say most such heroes are Zeniths with Resistance Supernal.

there are some archetypes which can be two castes without any problem: a detective could be a Twilight if they're more scientific, a Night if they're more active and social. thats why they both get Investigation. both Zeniths and Twilights can be Lore-Supernal teachers, but Zeniths would lean more towards moral lessons while Twilights would lean more towards practical knowledge. a Occultist can either be a Twilight if they treat spirits as something to study or an Eclipse as people to understand.

Eclipses are one of the harder ones to think of- ironically Lex Luthor is probably a good example of an Eclipse Caste as his primary depictions these days is a guy in the political/economic sphere of influence adept at managing his reputation. but generally Eclipses are those that are less about their actual beliefs and more about making sure people communicate smoothly with one another so that things work efficiently. but they often have to use their wits so there is a lot of crossover with the Night Castes, and in the end the difference between Iron Man, Batman and Lex Luthor is a bit blurry at times- Doctor Doom as well, but he is clearly Twilight since he got a Craft charm to emulate his doombots.

its not an exact thing. you can argue for many heroes whether they Zenith or Dawn as well. for example Spiderman: is he an Athletics Supernal Zenith because he inspires people and jokes around while sticking to his principles no matter how many loved ones die, or an Athletics Supernal Night because he hides his identity and has to use his wits to beat his foes? his personality could go either way on that. I dunno some heroes are easier than others, especially as they get more complex: a long running character with a lot of history is harder to pin than a simpler character with a more limited story, as a longer runner could potentially play more than one role over time.

[Particle_Man]

So if Captain America is a Solar, then Bucky is a Lunar, right?

[Lord Raziere]

So if Captain America is a Solar, then Bucky is a Lunar, right?

some would say that.

but on the flip side, Lunars are not really the Solar Sidekick splat- they are their own thing. a Lunar is a better emulation of hero like Sun Wukong than a Solar, and in some respects a Lunar is more free and versatile than any Solar will ever be. shapeshifting is a part of that. thing is, you can argue that many heroes could also be Lunars from a certain perspective.

mostly because the Lunars about freedom and what you choose to define yourself by. Naruto could easily be a Lunar because of his outcast hero nature, his cloning powers, his fox associations and his will to fight for the people he loves- and from a certain perspective, SASUKE is his Solar Mate, since they are rivals that reincarnate across lifetimes to fight each other again and again and Sasuke is always the one with more talent and expertise, but its Naruto who is the protagonist.

from another perspective, Batman could be any type of Lunar since he solves problems with no one method he can be guile action or science hero with no problem, and tremendously versatile, with various lovers around him and a certain Joker who could count as an Abyssal.

or a Lunar could be someone like Martian Manhunter, his culture destroyed by the Realm but chosen by Luna to survive when others didn't and now he seeks to enact justice/revenge upon the Realm for being the jerks they are.

Spiderman could be a Full Moon Lunar whose Solar Mate girlfriend keeps dying and being reincarnated again while he keeps protecting the city with his spider totem powers, use to finding creative ways around his problems, that sort of thing.

and to flip it around even more- Captain America might not be a Solar at all. him and Bucky could both just be DB Dynasts who believe that the Realm could be a better place and work from the inside to make a better nation to live in despite it not being perfect. the entire Avengers could be seen as Dragon-Blooded since they've got the backing of the government and they work as a team in one of the most powerful nations in the world.

a lot of this is perspective. you can interpret things like this in more than one way to suit the character you want to play. which is probably for the best.

[Friv]

So if Captain America is a Solar, then Bucky is a Lunar, right?

Bucky's an Abyssal. He was Cap's heroic mortal sidekick who tagged along and benefited from various buffs and boosts to let him take part as long as he was part of Cap's team. Then he died. Then he was raised from the dead as a hostile killing machine by the enemies of the World. Then he realized that he had been a brainwashed assassin and turned good, but his abilities are still hyperfocused on killing people and he tends to bring suffering with him if he's not very careful.

[Morty]

I am saying that Castes should be treated as part and parcel of the personality of the Solar. Dawns are blunt-force characters, in personality and in deed. Nights are working the angles of any problem, social, mental, or physical. Zeniths know themselves first and foremost, they do what they believe in. Twilights are thinkers. Eclises are communicaters.

For example: Captain America is a very combat heavy character, but I would say he would not be Dawn, but a Zenith. Because he follows his beliefs, and expects everyone else to follow him. Hawkeye (movie version) is stealth oriented and has lots of non-combat abilities, but he deals with the problem in front of him and doesn't overly worry about the next thing. He would be Dawn-caste.
Alternatively, you could build early Batman and Ironman using the same stats, but Batman is Night while Ironman is Twilight because of their personalities.

That seems needlessly constraining for no good reason.

[lightningcat]

That seems needlessly constraining for no good reason.

Please explain how?
I see castes being based on core problem solving mentalities to be freeing, not restricting.

[Morty]

You're adding requirements where none are needed. Solar Castes describe an increased aptitude for some skills thanks to their Caste Abilities and Anima banner powers. They're not classes or even strictly speaking roles.

[Andreaz]

You're adding requirements where none are needed. Solar Castes describe an increased aptitude for some skills thanks to their Caste Abilities and Anima banner powers. They're not classes or even strictly speaking roles.

Castes do precisely three things: Dictate half of what you improve really fast, give you a couple useful powers and reward you for playing certain stereotypes.

Dawns gain more xp for being martial and bringing martial-related solutions. Sometimes this is breaking someone's face. Sometimes this is pulling a 7 samurai and training the village to defend itself against the bloodfog marauders.

[rel]

You're adding requirements where none are needed. Solar Castes describe an increased aptitude for some skills thanks to their Caste Abilities and Anima banner powers. They're not classes or even strictly speaking roles.


This is my thinking also.

Decide on the character you want to play. Pick the charms, skills, caste and so on to match the fluff you came up with. But don't use the mechanical decisions to inform your roleplay at the table.

I don't think you should ever be thinking 'my caste is X therefore my character should do Y'

[lightningcat]

This is my thinking also.

Decide on the character you want to play. Pick the charms, skills, caste and so on to match the fluff you came up with. But don't use the mechanical decisions to inform your roleplay at the table.

I don't think you should ever be thinking 'my caste is X therefore my character should do Y'

My entire arguement has been your choice of caste should be based on personality and how you want the character to solve problems.