3.x - Should GHE Make Arms and Legs?

[unseenmage]

The spell Greater Humanoid Essence from Races of Eberron (IIRC) changes a Construct into a Humanoid.

At our table this makes the Construct living and grants it a magically generated soul analogue because GHE doesnt give it immunity to spells that affect living or ensouled things.

Thing is, what happens when you use the spell on a Construct that does not have humanoid physical features?
Does the spell shape the tiger effigy into a humanoid physical shape? The animated object rowboat? The intelligent magic item sword?

Is having a humanoid physical shape a feature of the Humanoid creature type?
Barring the above should the GHE spell reshape its subject into a humanoid physical form?

[Ashtagon]

I'd say that if the target construct lacks a humanoid shape, the spell would either fail or function only as the lesser version of rthe spell.

I'd allow players to research or find a version of the spell that does a similar job for animal-shaped (or possibly even other creature types shifts, such as golem to plant) constructs.

[Telonius]

Yeah, that's really beyond the bounds of what the spell is supposed to do. More like a "temporary Awaken Construct," than, "The party Cleric can now heal our Shield Guardian." Either way, temporarily creating (and by extension, destroying when the duration runs out) a soul sounds like something that would attract some sort of attention from powerful interested beings.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Nothing about the humanoid type depends on having humanoid form (helped by the fact that "humanoid" comes with virtually no abilities that could depend on anything), so I'd ignore body shape when adjudicating the results of the spell.

[unseenmage]

Nothing about the humanoid type depends on having humanoid form (helped by the fact that "humanoid" comes with virtually no abilities that could depend on anything), so I'd ignore body shape when adjudicating the results of the spell.

The first and last sentences of the humanoid type description imply otherwise. The first sentence includes the word 'usually' while the last sentence is not so ambiguous.


A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head.

Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.

[Telonius]

Yeah, the "usually" gives some wiggle room. I'd mentioned "Awaken Construct," which specifies a humanoid-shaped construct as the target. So no Awakening an animated shoe or something (though you could probably have a decent argument for a grandfather clock). Humanoid Essence doesn't have that qualifier.

I'd say that in this instance it would be a case of "specific trumps general" - Humanoid Essence's specific effect overrides the general rule of Humanoids being a particular shape.

[ShurikVch]

Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.Well, incorporeal Humanoid wouldn't breathe or eat, but otherwise - still a Humanoid...

[unseenmage]

I'd say that if the target construct lacks a humanoid shape, the spell would either fail or function only as the lesser version of rthe spell.

I'd allow players to research or find a version of the spell that does a similar job for animal-shaped (or possibly even other creature types shifts, such as golem to plant) constructs.

I meant to address this post earlier but I missed it.

As a 7th level spell is reshaping a creature beyond the scope of the spell though?

Is it really worth an extra spell level to make a new spell that gives an animated boulder hands, feet, and a face?

How does that stack up to the average 7th level spell?

[Particle_Man]

Well if you cast it on a human that lost their arms and legs would they regain their arms and legs? Or would the construct be like a human that had lost (or never been born with) arms and legs?

[noob]

A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head.

Now is the spell called greater usual humanoid essence?

[Bronk]

I meant to address this post earlier but I missed it.

As a 7th level spell is reshaping a creature beyond the scope of the spell though?

Is it really worth an extra spell level to make a new spell that gives an animated boulder hands, feet, and a face?

How does that stack up to the average 7th level spell?

Looking at these spells, it seems as if the Lesser version is a buff (allows healing), but for some reason the Greater version switches to a save or suck.

So, if you are in battle and want to let your allies use all their abilities on a construct, this is what you'd hit it with. If you wanted to change the construct's form, you'd use the 8th level Polymorph Any Object instead - or even a 4th level regular Polymorph if the target was a living construct ally.

[Ashtagon]

I meant to address this post earlier but I missed it.

As a 7th level spell is reshaping a creature beyond the scope of the spell though?

Misdirection. This isn't asking about any 7th level spell, but this 7th level spell in particular. There certainly are spells at this level of power that can restore limbs. But that's not what the magical energy is being channelled towards in this spell.

Arguing this case is similar to arguing that slow spells should be able to inflict fire damage, because fireball is of the same level.

[noob]

Misdirection. This isn't asking about any 7th level spell, but this 7th level spell in particular. There certainly are spells at this level of power that can restore limbs. But that's not what the magical energy is being channelled towards in this spell.

Arguing this case is similar to arguing that slow spells should be able to inflict fire damage, because fireball is of the same level.

Maybe a level 3 sword should be able to inflict slow and fire damage and allow to fly.