Ability Score Improvement - custom changes

[jmorr]

Currently, my DM is running a custom Ability Score Improvement system in D&d 5E.
I'm just wondering what you guys think about this and if it would impact the game significantly:
Current setup is that for class level 4, 8, 12, 16 & 19 you get +2 ability score points and a feat, but ignore the ability score increases on all feats.

The problem arose when I wanted to multiclass from a Ranger 3 to a Fighter.
DM said I wouldn't be allowed the same Ability Score Improvements at lvl 6 & 14. That I would just get standard rules for those levels. :eek:

Does this significantly impact the power of the Fighter and multiclassed Fighter builds?
Feels a little unfair to me since it's a core Fighter feature to have more Improvements, but now my Extra Improvements are worth a lot less.

Hope to hear your opinions! :smile:

*edit* Yes, this is 5th Edition D&D.

[KillianHawkeye]

Is this 5th Edition? :smallconfused:

Either way, you should tell your DM to base ability score improvements off of total character level rather than particular class levels. Otherwise, the system becomes stupidly useless and unfair to multiclass characters.

[jmorr]

Is this 5th Edition? :smallconfused:

Either way, you should tell your DM to base ability score improvements off of total character level rather than particular class levels. Otherwise, the system becomes stupidly useless and unfair to multiclass characters.

Yes, this is D&D 5e.
I can understand missing out on a singular feat/+2 to an ability score to multiclass. But it definitely feels skewed towards single class characters when only those class levels are buffed

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Moved.

[Chronos]

In 5e, ability score improvements are a class feature and treated as such. And fighters (and to a lesser extent rogues) get more of them than usual, which is also a class feature. I'm not sure what the impetus is for changing that.

If this change is just for multiclassed characters, then what happens when a 6th level fighter (who already has an extra ASI) multiclasses to some other class?

[jmorr]

If this change is just for multiclassed characters, then what happens when a 6th level fighter (who already has an extra ASI) multiclasses to some other class?

The DM told me that Fighters just don't get both a feat & +2 at lvl 6 and 14. So a lvl 6 Fighter would have in total a +2, a feat (lvl4), then one of his choice at lvl 6. Once the Fighter reaches lvl 4 in a new class or lvl 8 in the Fighter class they'd get the double benefit again.

[Mellack]

Sounds like it gimps fighters some (not good), rogues some (but less), and makes a bunch of feats basically worthless. Why would anyone take a half-feat that is supposed to include a stat boost instead of a full feat? That stat boost is included in balancing.

[Rukelnikov]

I think the biggest change is making half feats less appealing. But I would still take some of them under this rules, Resilient would be on every character sooner or later for instance.

Fighters still get 2 ASIs more than the rest, which in this system it would be comparable to be only 1 improved ASI ahead.

So is it a nerf for fighters? Well no, it's a strict buff, keep everything you had and get something extra.

Is the fighter getting less of a buff than the other classes? No, they all get 5 improved ASIs.

You can say that the relevance of the fighters extra ASIs is diminished since now everyone has 10 effective ASIs instead of 5, so the fighter is 20% ahead instead of 40%.

However, the weight of it should be measured. If the DM gave everyone free combat style that would be far worse, because getting that requires multiclassing in a narrow group of classes, in which the fighter has the benefit of requiring only 1 lvl instead of the two most other FS classes require.

What Im aiming for is, does this change make dipping or maining fighter less tempting? I don't think so. Extra 2 extra ASIs over 14 lvls are not what defines the fighter.

[jmorr]

Thanks for the replies.

I definitely agree that all classes are still relevant. It certainly doesn't push Fighter out of being a viable class to play.

Would giving the Fighter the double benefit for their 2x extra ASI at lvl 6 and 14 be considered too strong in this system?

[Unoriginal]

The DM told me that Fighters just don't get both a feat & +2 at lvl 6 and 14. So a lvl 6 Fighter would have in total a +2, a feat (lvl4), then one of his choice at lvl 6. Once the Fighter reaches lvl 4 in a new class or lvl 8 in the Fighter class they'd get the double benefit again.

In 5e, NO ONE get both a feat and a +2 to the stats. It's always either or.

[PeteNutButter]

So, your DM houseruled that all ASIs give a feat and the stat boost, but said that the extra ones fighter and rogue get only five either a feat or stat boost?

Meh seems reasonable. If it gave extra to fighters it affects class balance. At its current state he buffed all classes evenly. If it bothers you, just ditch fighter after 5th level.

[jmorr]

In 5e, NO ONE get both a feat and a +2 to the stats. It's always either or.
This is a custom ASI system where 4, 8, 12, 16, 19 give +2 ability score and a feat (ignoring the feat's ability score increases

So, your DM houseruled that all ASIs give a feat and the stat boost, but said that the extra ones fighter and rogue get only five either a feat or stat boost?

Meh seems reasonable. If it gave extra to fighters it affects class balance. At its current state he buffed all classes evenly. If it bothers you, just ditch fighter after 5th level.

That's exactly right. Either way it affects balance. I can't actually catch up in ASI as a Ranger 3 w/ Fighter multiclassed any more. Whereas in the regular system, I could. Class lvl 4, 8, 12, 16, 19 are extra buffed, so it hurts multiclassing characters a lot more. Not to mention access to feats early is how the Fighter is customised and is his little niche. So it devalues it.

[Jakinbandw]

I'd say go paladin or something instead of fighter. The draw of fighter is getting extra feats to round out your character. With 5 extra feats that bonus isnt really important. Since the benifits of fighter no longer really exist you might as well ask to rebuild as a class that gets some benifits.

Look at it like this, if you were told as a spell caster that all classes would get full spellcasting as a sorcerer using a spell book of their choice would you still play a wizard even if you got a few more spells then the fighter?

[Rukelnikov]

I'd say go paladin or something instead of fighter. The draw of fighter is getting extra feats to round out your character. With 5 extra feats that bonus isnt really important. Since the benifits of fighter no longer really exist you might as well ask to rebuild as a class that gets some benifits.

Look at it like this, if you were told as a spell caster that all classes would get full spellcasting as a sorcerer using a spell book of their choice would you still play a wizard even if you got a few more spells then the fighter?

IMO the draw of fighter is the 3rd attack at 11 and Action Surge, but to each his own. And that's not even going into subclasses.

[jmorr]

IMO the draw of fighter is the 3rd attack at 11 and Action Surge, but to each his own. And that's not even going into subclasses.

My thoughts exactly.

Do you think getting a +2 ability score increase as well as a feat at Fighter levels 6 & 14 ASI would be too strong or throw the game out of balance?

[Rukelnikov]

My thoughts exactly.

Do you think getting a +2 ability score increase as well as a feat at Fighter levels 6 & 14 ASI would be too strong or throw the game out of balance?

Yeah, tbh I do see it as too strong.

[jmorr]

Yeah, tbh I do see it as too strong.

Fair enough. Thanks for the replies.

[Rukelnikov]

Fair enough. Thanks for the replies.

No prob, welcome to the playground :)

[Chronos]

Ah, OK, I misunderstood. In that case, the biggest issue is that all characters are going to run out of both good feats and good ability scores. With a straight single-classed non-fighter, by level 19, you're boosting your third-most-important ability score, and picking up your fifth-most-valuable feat. That's already pretty underwhelming. With a fighter, it'd instead be your seventh-most-valuable feat. What are you even taking at that point? You've got your combat feats, maybe something like Polearm Master and Heavy Weapon Master. You tossed in Sentinel, because you can. You've picked up Magic Initiate and/or Ritual Caster, to add a little utility. Maybe you took Inspiring Leader even if your Cha is poor, just for the +1/level (except with these rules, someone else in your party with good Cha probably already took it). You grabbed Lucky, because that's useful for anyone. What else are you going to take, that's going to make level 19 feel good?

[MilkmanDanimal]

My thoughts exactly.

Do you think getting a +2 ability score increase as well as a feat at Fighter levels 6 & 14 ASI would be too strong or throw the game out of balance?

Yes. There are a lot of advantages to multiclassing, which is why it's frequently done. Extra abilities, spells, all the great things you typically get at level 3 and grab your subclass. Missing an ASI is a solid tradeoff for that; if I'm a level 3 Paladin about to level up, that ASI vs. a multiclass into Warlock or Sorcerer is a real choice with significant impacts. Why just do the ASI? If a Fighter is level 2 and multiclass into Rogue, should they still get Action Surge, the level 3 feature? You could restructure the entire game that, as you progress, you always get your first class' level benefit, but, in that case, everybody would multiclass constantly.

Sounds like the reason here is you just don't like the tradeoff, but that's really an intended feature as far as I can tell.

[Rukelnikov]

Ah, OK, I misunderstood. In that case, the biggest issue is that all characters are going to run out of both good feats and good ability scores. With a straight single-classed non-fighter, by level 19, you're boosting your third-most-important ability score, and picking up your fifth-most-valuable feat. That's already pretty underwhelming. With a fighter, it'd instead be your seventh-most-valuable feat. What are you even taking at that point? You've got your combat feats, maybe something like Polearm Master and Heavy Weapon Master. You tossed in Sentinel, because you can. You've picked up Magic Initiate and/or Ritual Caster, to add a little utility. Maybe you took Inspiring Leader even if your Cha is poor, just for the +1/level (except with these rules, someone else in your party with good Cha probably already took it). You grabbed Lucky, because that's useful for anyone. What else are you going to take, that's going to make level 19 feel good?

On the other hand, this allows "suboptimal" choices to work, you can be an Elf Paladin and max Str and Cha, while not losing out on PAM, GWM, Sentinel

[AvvyR]

In that case, the biggest issue is that all characters are going to run out of both good feats and good ability scores.

This notion is completely bizarre to me. Most characters already have to spend 4 of their 5 ASI's to max their main stats, and non-minmaxed characters might have to spend all 5. I also don't think there's really a such thing as too many stat increases. Might someone have to play a fighter with not abysmal Int and Cha?

As for feats, I understand the Playground forgets this often, but there are feats outside of PAM, GWM, SS, Crossbow Expert, and Sentinel. I can't think of a character I've played that wouldn't have appreciated taking Keen Mind, Linguist, or Skilled. There are a ton of feats with fun abilities and awesome characterization that normally get ignored due to the harsh choice between ASI and feat and not being the standout most powerful choice.

[Chronos]

But the point is, no matter what your character, no matter what your motivations, no matter what your priorities, there are going to be some ability scores that you value more than others, and some feats that you value more than others, and some you don't really care about. When you pick up your favorite feat (whatever it is), or boost your favorite ability score, that's exciting. When you pick up your second-favorite feat, well, that's still nice. When you pick up your fifth-favorite feat, though, that's probably a lot less exciting than your most favorite.