What if Languages was a proficiency?

[ImproperJustice]

I find languages to be one of the more frustrating aspects of D&D.
Therr are just so many.
You can build a great negotiator, but unless you have some kind of magical aid, 75% of encounters you won’t be able interact with anything unless you have the right language proficiency.

In Savage Worlds they have the option of a language skill which reflects a general familiarity with foreign cultures and speech.
At the entry level, yiu can find the bathroom in a foreign land and order food and lodging in single word sentences.
At it’s highest level, you can recite significant cultural works such as poetry or ballads in their native tongue with the appropriate inflections.

Some of this can be adjudicated of course by the GM for especially remote or alien cultures.


So what if in D&D, languages were a single intelligence based proficiency that reflects the multicultural nature of your PC.
Obviously not being proficient simply includes the ability to converse in your native tongue, no check required.

But outaide of common speech, proficiency checks are called for to understand foreign speech with the DC based upon the complexity of the subject matter?

For example: Meeting Goblins and convincing them you mean no harm may be an average check, while trying to understand a Drow Religous ceremony could be much, much higher?

I think what I am aiming for is that Pulp world traveler or star wars feel where the PCs have more options for broad based i teractions with a variety of cultures.

What are your thoughts and opinions?

[solidork]

Talk with your GM and see if you can use proficiency in History to represent the fact that you have a broad familiarity with different cultures.

[LtPowers]

75% of encounters you won’t be able interact with anything unless you have the right language proficiency.

75%? Don't most NPCs with language speak Common? Or at least one in a group?


Powers &8^]

[LibraryOgre]

Sounds fairly reasonable. I think you might also say, if you went with this, that you were fluent in languages equal to your Proficiency bonus; it wouldn't even step on Linguist overmuch, as the feat would give you 3 beyond your proficiency, a bonus to intelligence, and the ability to create ciphers.

[guachi]

I'm a linguist by trade. The US government has various levels of skill from 0 to 5 to rate one's proficiency. You might be able to use this to determine how someone can communicate without needing a die roll (passive language skill). Almost no one I work with is above a level 3 in their target language and even native speakers will struggle to get a 5 (especially in speaking) as the topics become too complex.

0 - oral production limited to occasional, isolated words
- may be able to ask questions or make statements with reasonable accuracy only with memorized utterances or formulae
- unable to read connected prose but may be able to read numbers, isolated words and phrases, personal and place names, street signs, office and shop designations
- understanding limited to occasional isolated words or memorized utterances in areas of immediate needs.
- may be able to produce symbols in an alphabetic or syllabic writing system or 50 of the most common characters

1 - can fulfill traveling needs and conduct themselves in a polite manner
- able to use questions and answers for simple topics within a limited level of experience; the native speaker must strain and leverage contextual knowledge to understand what is said
- Able to understand basic questions and speech, which allows for guides, such as slower speech or repetition, to aid understanding
- has a vocabulary only large enough to communicate the most basic of needs
- writes in simple sentences or sentence fragments with continual spelling and grammar errors

2 - able to satisfy routine social demands and limited work requirements
- can handle with confidence most basic social situations including introductions and casual conversations about current events, work, family, and autobiographical information
- can handle limited work requirements, needing help in handling any complications or difficulties; can get the gist of most conversations on non-technical subjects (i.e. topics which require no specialized knowledge), and has a speaking vocabulary sufficient to respond simply with some circumlocutions
- has an accent which, though often quite faulty, is intelligible
- can usually handle elementary constructions quite accurately but does not have thorough or confident control of the grammar

3 - able to speak the language with sufficient structural accuracy and vocabulary to participate effectively in most conversations on practical, social, and professional topics
- can discuss particular interests and special fields of competence with reasonable ease
- has comprehension which is quite complete for a normal rate of speech
- has a general vocabulary which is broad enough that he or she rarely has to search for a word
- has an accent which may be obviously foreign; has a good control of grammar; and whose errors virtually never interfere with understanding and rarely disturb the native speaker

4 -able to use the language fluently and accurately on all levels and as normally pertinent to professional needs
- can understand and participate in any conversations within the range of own personal and professional experience with a high degree of fluency and precision of vocabulary
- would rarely be taken for a native speaker, but can respond appropriately even in unfamiliar grounds or situations
- makes only quite rare and minor errors of pronunciation and grammar
- can handle informal interpreting of the language

5 -has a speaking proficiency equivalent to that of an educated native speaker
- has complete fluency in the language, such that speech on all levels is fully accepted by educated native speakers in all of its features, including breadth of vocabulary and idiom, colloquialisms, and pertinent cultural references


As an example: I'm an Arabic linguist and my scores are Listening 2+ and Reading 3. The 2+ means I'm about midway between a 2 and a 3. I struggle with the level 3 things when I listen but I'm a strong level 3 when I read. My speaking, however, is atrocious. I'm about at a 1 level as I do it rarely.


My language class was 63 weeks long and at the upper (and rare) end someone would come out with a 3/3. I'd estimate that for a language quite foreign to someone (like a human learning dwarvish or an English speaker learning Arabic) that it would take 8 weeks of heavy study (we studied 7 hours a day) to achieve level 0 and then double for each level above that. So 16 weeks for level 1, 32 weeks for level 2 and 64 weeks for level 3.

I hope this helps.

[Joe the Rat]

And here I make talking to other humans a challenge.

I find a little world-building, or a query about the world-building helps. You don't need every language, just what the commonly used ones are. Do the nonhumans speak a lot of Goblin? Is Draconic like old Latin?

If I were to make a short list of semi-exclusive languages for default FR...
Common
Undercommon
Draconic
Giant
Sylvan
Goblin/Orc
and maybe an Outsider (Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Primordial)

History for recognizing language is a fair substitution if you don't want to add Linguistics.

[Jerrykhor]

That's why i rank Comprehend Languages highly. Those power gamers like to take all the combat spells, but they don't know that knowledge is the true power. Coming across messages or riddles in a foreign language is a common trope in fantasy, and no matter how many languages you know, if you dont know the one that is required, its all for naught.

You're not the only one who feels this way. Plenty of settings with alien races have all the races speak English, only in different accents. Sci-fi like to use the 'everyone has a translator implant' or something like that.

[Rukelnikov]

I'm a linguist by trade. The US government has various levels of skill from 0 to 5 to rate one's proficiency. You might be able to use this to determine how someone can communicate without needing a die roll (passive language skill). Almost no one I work with is above a level 3 in their target language and even native speakers will struggle to get a 5 (especially in speaking) as the topics become too complex.

Do you know which level Cambridge's CPE would entail more or less?

[KorvinStarmast]

That's why i rank Comprehend Languages highly. Those power gamers like to take all the combat spells, but they don't know that knowledge is the true power.
Yeah. Each wizard I've played with ended up taking it as soon as they could. (they also like that it is a ritual spell). I've noticed that bards take it a lot as well.

[ImproperJustice]

I am leaning more towards a hybrid method then.

Keep languages known as languges you are fluent in, but also have a proficiency for being able to cover general conversations and meaning in unknown languages. With high dcs for advanced concepts, etc...

[Hecuba]

Do you know which level Cambridge's CPE would entail more or less?

CPE targets level C2 (and has actually been renamed C2 proficiency) the CEFR scale, which is a common European scale for language proficiency. C2 is generally considered equivalent to a 4 or 4+ on the ILR scale.

[Finback]

I just allow improvement over time. My players have been exploring Chult for several weeks now, one of them stayed in Port Nyanzaru for a few weeks (for out of game reasons) and on re-arrival, I allow them some of them who had been the "faces" of the party to gain a new language slot to represent their immersion into a new culture. That being said, there's limitations - a group of goblins in the middle of the jungle is completely different to chatting with people on the street in Nyanzaru. It won't grant you Tortle, it won't grant you the ability to decode ancient hieroglyphs from a thousand years ago. But it will allow you enough skills to swap goods with a bunch of traders in a jungle camp, or to haggle for a ship ride back to civilisation.

[Rukelnikov]

CPE targets level C2 (and has actually been renamed C2 proficiency) the CEFR scale, which is a common European scale for language proficiency. C2 is generally considered equivalent to a 4 or 4+ on the ILR scale.

Thx! guess I'm doing pretty good then!

[Skylivedk]

I can't help but feel this is a reflection of the designers being American. Even the older versions gave me that impression. My older brothers speak and continually improve 8 languages. I'm at seven (with three being super rusty).

I do not write this to deride Americans on anyone else coming from big nations with a commonly spoken language (English, Spanish, Chinese, Russian, French, etc), but DnD and the settings written so far does a poor job of understanding how small states got by back in the day: the Dutch, the Swiss and the Danes had at least 3, probably 4 or more, commonly spoken languages and a heavily militarised population (important for trade and the occasional mercenary duty), nor is there much in terms of different justice systems (again; feels like a reflection of the American designers).

I think certain backgrounds should give way more languages and that they shouldn't come at the cost of tools. I'm not sure about a general language proficiency... Maybe; I mean I could read Portuguese basically with no issue because I picked up French years ago, but when I learned Arabic it was pretty much from scratch: completely different sounds, letters, grammar and almost no borrowed words

[Laserlight]

Background: I used to sell localization services.

I wouldn't make "knows all languages" anywhere near that easy. Learning French and Spanish will make it easier for you to function in Italian, but hardly fluent, and doesn't do much for your Korean, Arabic, Igbo, Navajo and Thai. Even the differences between national forms of English can trip you; I have an Australian friend who gave a lecture at Cambridge and discovered that she needed a translator for the audience to understand her.

Then account for the level of technology. You don't have internet or video. You might have an elf or dwarf community nearby but how often do you interact with them--bearing in mind if Elftown is ten miles away, that's a six hour walk to get there and back. Unless you're in a major city, if you have elves next door then you most likely don't also have a dwarf enclave and giant settlers nearby. And your opportunity to chat in Abyssal are probably going to be limited.

I actually think communication is too easy to be realistic. "Common" should be a pidgin, sufficient for you to buy general goods but not a language for discussing art or arcana or holding political negotiations. You may speak Orcish, but not well enough to fool any orc.

But we don't do it that way because we're not playing Linguistics & Localization, and being realistic about it would be a drag on your dungeon time. I've had a couple of games where languages were an issue, and made things more fun. The massive barbarian (native Igbo and some English) became famous drinking buddies with the tiny swashbuckler (her only languages were Dockside French and Profanity). The nobleman's valet had to translate between the noble's high speech and the druid's forest dialect, which made discussing their love life hilarious. But usually it's just "everyone everywhere is totally fluent in Common".

[Cybren]

To be honest, I find the proliferation of Common to be what undermines the concept of playing the Languages Person. Sure, Drow don’t speak common. but they speak elven for some reason, despite multiple millennia of geographic isolation

[Unoriginal]

Learning new languages using the Xanathar's rules isn't that hard. Not exactly what you want, but it's an option.



To be honest, I find the proliferation of Common to be what undermines the concept of playing the Languages Person. Sure, Drow don’t speak common. but they speak elven for some reason, despite multiple millennia of geographic isolation

A language changes slowly when the average speaker has centuries of lifetime and that there are immortal gods speaking it. If it changed at the same rate as, say, English, an adult elf would literally be unable to understand their grandparent's language.

Also it's more cultural isolation than geographic, for the Drow.

[Chronos]

My first 5e character had Ritual Caster, and took Comprehend Languages as one of his first two rituals... and then it almost never came up, because having a two-language background put him at enough languages that he could almost always get by with nonmagical language knowledge. I still don't regret taking it, because it fit his personality, and those one or two times when his knowledge wasn't enough, it was very useful, but I think that the OP has a solution in search of a problem.

[Jophiel]

You may speak Orcish, but not well enough to fool any orc.
Then consider things like Gnoll. The average person isn't physically capable of making the sorts of barks, growls, yips and howls they would incorporate into their language. You might even lack the range of hearing to understand a good part of it as well. Once you get into languages like that, I have them marked as "(Rough) Gnoll" meaning that you know enough to make limited requests and conversation but aren't near fluent.

[Laserlight]

HERO System had languages grouped by family, and different levels of proficiency, so if you were Fluent in, say, Spanish, you might also get Introductory in Portuguese or Italian, or a reduced point cost to buy higher levels in related languages. If you were starting an entirely unrelated language, you'd pay full price. You could buy Linguist, which wouldn't give you extra languages for free but did make it quicker and cheaper for you to buy additional languages.

I think it would be reasonable to have more tiers of skills, something like:
0 you don't get proficiency and you get disadvantage, but you can make the roll
1 proficiency, disad
etc, up to the top tier, where you have Expertise and get Advantage if you're spending a normal amount of time and have tools -- for instance, if you're doing Alchemy in a lab and spending an hour.

And the same thing with languages. Level 0 would get you a few words in a bad accent, the top level means you are indistinguishable from an educated native in accent, vocabulary, and speech patterns.