Gushing about Wizard Schools.

[Snowbluff]

So I was working on making Dejavu Lightningdust, a Tabaxi rogue, and I was looking for more ways to be fast but also have haste and some magic, and I came across Transmuter wizard. You can make a rock that makes you faster!

So looking at the various schools, and they're all pretty neat.

Abjurers famously get that ward, basically giving them a d10 HD and some gnome builds can even refill it at will. That's cool! And they can counterspell better, which is also pretty neat.

Conjurers can teleport objects and their buddies. The first ability is mostly a ribbon, but rearranging the battlefield is a good trick.

Diviners, OMG, diviners. Portent is cool, but also being able to save slots when casting Divinations is super cool! Basically, the chore (or your favorite thing ever if you're a diviner) of doing divinations and scrying has a much smaller cost on your fighting ability. Oh, and they get special senses.

Enchanter gets smaller charm effects that I feel the game otherwise lacks, due to how tricky Friends can be. They're subtle and fit with the flavor. Also, getting extra targets on say a suggestion or domination is pretty great.

EVOCATION! Oh yeah! Now this doesn't sound like anything proper position wouldn't fix, but Sculpt Spell is really good and opens up some crazy strategies. Sometimes, you just have to bathe the room in Sickening Radiance and walk out fine afterwards. Plus, buffing cantrips and damaging spells in general is great. These abilities definitely compliment the blasting style, which I can appreciate given my Bladesinger has put out more fireballs than any other spells.

Illusion. Buffs Minor Illusion. I would stop there because of how awesome buffing what I think the most fun and most useful cantrip, but tweaking your other illusion spells and then going full on reality warper is so flavorful and cool!

Necromancy. Personally, I don't like doing too much minionmancy, but adding damage to your undead horde is pretty freaking sweet. Oh, then you can take over enemy undead, too. I remember a story about an oathbreaker I know snagged himself some powerful undead beholder, so I can tell this probably has a lot of cool story potential.

Transmutation. Transmute some minor things for fun and profit! Then you get the philosophers stone, which has a bunch of small effects that I feel are valuable for their flexibility, even if it's not the most powerful. Plus, you can bring back the dead and cure any ailment at higher levels! Not the strongest, but certainly super cool.

Now, I think these benefits are pretty good. Naturally, as a wizard your spells will be your bread and butter, but the schools will definitely compliment a bunch of different playstyles.

There's also bladesinger and War Wizard. Bladesinger is good, if you ask me, but doesn't give as many flavorful abilities IMO. Wzard Wizard is much the same way. I fell like other classes have some good options, but these ones are pretty interesting. What're your favorite subclasses for wizard? Which other class do you think has really good subclasses?

[hymer]

What're your favorite subclasses for wizard?
Bladesinger. It's not that powerful, but it feels great. With bladesong activated, and some source of disadvantage on enemy attack rolls, and shield prepared... Feels great.


Which other class do you think has really good subclasses?
I'd say offhand that cleric has the most meaningful changes via subclass. But it may make them a tad more frontloaded than I'd prefer, so they are perhaps a little too tempting for dips.

[Man_Over_Game]

My favorite Wizard subclasses have to be either the Bladesinger, the Diviner or the Abjurer. Wizards have the best out-of-combat utility options, and the Diviner and Abjurer have some interesting mechanics to make casting spells during your rests as a valid choice. Bladesinger has some extra tools to deal with martial classes, and is quite fun once you learn how to best use it.

[Chronos]

Bladesinger is fine, flavor-wise. You're a wizard who can use a blade effectively. It's maybe not the most interesting, but it works.

War Wizard, though, is neither interesting, thematic, nor particularly useful. You can do a slight bit of extra damage with your spells, powered by dispelling other spells? What is that? What, in particular, does it have to do with war? The beholder's suggestion of "a wizard who wears purple" would be more interesting than that.

As to my personal favorite, I've got to go with Conjurer, because there are just too many clever uses for that Minor Creation.

[Max_Killjoy]

War Wizard, though, is neither interesting, thematic, nor particularly useful. You can do a slight bit of extra damage with your spells, powered by dispelling other spells? What is that? What, in particular, does it have to do with war? The beholder's suggestion of "a wizard who wears purple" would be more interesting than that.


War Magic makes for an excellent 2-level Wizard dip.


Access to Cantrips and Ritual Casting and a Spellbook.
+ INT Mod to Initiative, no action or tradeoff required.
Bonus on Saves and AC for the low price of only casting Cantrips for a round.


And you can combine that +INT Mod to Initiative with the Revised Ranger's @ Level 1 and always-on Advantage on Initiative...

[Man_Over_Game]

War Wizard, though, is neither interesting, thematic, nor particularly useful. You can do a slight bit of extra damage with your spells, powered by dispelling other spells? What is that? What, in particular, does it have to do with war? The beholder's suggestion of "a wizard who wears purple" would be more interesting than that.

The War aspect comes from the fact that most wars are waged with armies, and with how Bounded Accuracy works, numbers is bigger than size.

What counters numbers? Casters.

What counters casters? A War Mage.

You put a War Mage in your army and now they can siege without risk of a Fireball or Call Lightning decimating them. In a way, they wage war against other mages. They are honed, specific, precise weapons, designed for one purpose.

This is also relevant to the +4 bonus to Saving Throws. The difference between that and the +2 to AC is pretty massive. Now ask yourself, where do Saving Throws come from? Mages.

War Mages wage war on other Mages. I could definitely see them being mercenaries. Need to siege a druid haven? Your enemy has a pesky Evoker? Hire a War Mage and put them in their place.

[ProsecutorGodot]

War Wizard, though, is neither interesting, thematic, nor particularly useful. You can do a slight bit of extra damage with your spells, powered by dispelling other spells? What is that? What, in particular, does it have to do with war? The beholder's suggestion of "a wizard who wears purple" would be more interesting than that.

I for one really enjoy the War Wizard.

Xanathar's Guide to Everything:
In great battles, a war mage often works with evokers, abjurers, and other types of wizards. Evokers, in particular, sometimes tease war mages for splitting their attention between offense and defense. A war mage’s typical response: “What good is being able to throw a mighty fireball if I die before I can cast it?”
And I find it's proven true for the one I play.

I'm usually first in initiative and if I do have a spell that I need to cast and maintain concentration on, the enemy has a damn hard time breaking that concentration. You become an aggressive and hard to kill target at level 2.

The 6th level feature is admittedly pretty poor, especially if you're taking a multiclass, but if you take the class up to 10th(+) level then it begins to shine again. You should be concentrating on a spell more often than not and having a static +2 to AC and Saves on top of your Arcane Deflection only makes you a more difficult target.

[MintyNinja]

I was thinking about this a while ago and I came up with an IC description of each of the schools:

Given an empty space, and a target composed of matter, each of the schools in their most basic essence do something different:

Abjuration: Defends
Conjuration: Relocates
Divination: Reveals
Enchantment: Coerces
Evocation: Reacts
Illusion: Masks
Necromancy: Diminishes
Transmutation: Changes

And yeah, this is the most basic building block of Spell Schools, but imagine a wizard trying to explain this to a barbarian or a dim witted fighter.

...It was amusing to me, at least.

[Snowbluff]

I always took evocation as magic that generates energy. I agree about transmutation and conjuration, however.



What counters numbers? Casters.

What counters casters?

Abjurers and Bards who know counterspell. Prof or half prof in their counter spells and dispels. Much more reliable in stopping a nuke. Furthermore Sorcerers can counterspell at double the distance.

I'd say that bladesingers stay alive and maintain concentration better than war wizards. They get their int to both, at much lower level, and a reaction that lowers damage.

[Man_Over_Game]

Furthermore Sorcerers can counterspell at double the distance.

Jury's out on that one: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/128511/can-you-effectively-apply-the-distant-spell-metamagic-option-to-a-counterspell

A bard lacks offensive options that are suitable in war (Shatter, I guess?). Abjuration does work well in the same way that a War Mage does. The War Mage has more offensive options, I feel. Have your opponent burn his Counterspell first by casting something like Phantasmal Force. You can Counterspell his Counterspell due to your higher initiative.

[Snowbluff]

Jury's out on that one: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/128511/can-you-effectively-apply-the-distant-spell-metamagic-option-to-a-counterspell

A bard lacks offensive options that are suitable in war (Shatter, I guess?). Abjuration does work well in the same way that a War Mage does. The War Mage has more offensive options, I feel. Have your opponent burn his Counterspell first by casting something like Phantasmal Force. You can Counterspell his Counterspell due to your higher initiative.

Hm... interesting.

The question was who is better against casters, war wizards are low on that listing. Bards also get hypnotic pattern at low levels, and can get basically anything else they would need in terms of spells due to magical secrets, as well as other talents depending on their type. You're less likely to succeed on an under leveled counter spell, and MORE IMPORTANTLY your strategy doesn't leverage any benefit of being a war wizard compared to another type.

I do know a guy who has made a war wizard for init, though. He's got like a +20 modifier, and says stuff "I've seen the future, you're already dead!" before controlling the field.

My preferred strat is to just hide, however. Goblin wizard, for the win!!!

[NaughtyTiger]

An evocation wiz at my table did that what you described. Dropped sickening radiance and walked out. completely wrecked my boss battle.


i play an enchantment wiz. the abilities are ribbon-y, but fun roleplay.

[Max_Killjoy]

As an aside, what do people mean by "ribbon" abilities?

[hymer]

As an aside, what do people mean by "ribbon" abilities?
That they are mostly for show, and the developers intended them to be that way. They help develop the feel of the race/class/subclass, without adding much to its sheer power.

[Sigreid]

My table has seen a transmute and evocation wizard. The consensus from the other players is that they liked the transmuter and love the evoker.

And yes, that sickening radiance trick can be a complete encounter wrecked. Especially since almost nothing is immune to exhaustion.

[Thrasher92]

I've always liked Divination wizards, to me they make a lot of roleplaying sense and in 5th they gain Portent, which makes them awesome.

I've often thought of it like this, the reason Wizards are so powerful is because when they know what they are going against, they can plan out which spells to prepare and become a serious threat to any combatant. Wizards are studious, they are seekers of knowledge, which school of magic is designed to let them know more information?

A quote that describes Diviners the best would be "To be forewarned is to be forearmed". They are the ones who, from the perspective of others, "Just know things", and I love that about them. It just feels more "wizardly" to me to know a little more information than the next guy.

[Man_Over_Game]

As an aside, what do people mean by "ribbon" abilities?


That they are mostly for show, and the developers intended them to be that way. They help develop the feel of the race/class/subclass, without adding much to its sheer power.

I wouldn't necessarily mean it as "for show". It's an ability that provides little-to-nothing for combat. For example, the Transmuter's ability to convert objects takes far too long to use in combat, but it's still incredibly powerful in its own right. People will still call that a ribbon, because it doesn't do anything for combat.

Unfortunately, out-of-combat usefulness isn't ever gauged, because players/DMs don't usually consider out-of-combat to have a specific goal or win condition. You can't "win" a narrative, so there's no point in trying to. However, combat DOES have a win condition that people can plan around, so they do. Players want to win, and narrative goals aren't nearly as obvious as "deal 100 damage to save the princess".

So if it doesn't provide anything for combat, it's useless and pretty. A "ribbon".

--------

People always say that Divination is great because of it's Portent ability (force 2 dice rolls a day, whoo), but nobody mentions the fact that you can cast Telepathic Bond (Level 5), Arcane Eye (Level 4) and Fireball (Level 3) with the same spell slot. Instead, they just mention how upcasting Mind Spike is "so strong". Kinda disappointing.

If I were a Diviner, I'd be spamming the hell out of Arcane Eye into Fireball. I'd do that for days.

I'd do it so much that the DM got tired of my shenanigans and would start just using fireproof enemies with Truesight.

[Max_Killjoy]

I wouldn't necessarily mean it as "for show". It's an ability that provides little-to-nothing for combat. For example, the Transmuter's ability to convert objects takes far too long to use in combat, but it's still incredibly powerful in its own right. People will still call that a ribbon, because it doesn't do anything for combat.

Unfortunately, out-of-combat usefulness isn't ever gauged, because players/DMs don't usually consider out-of-combat to have a specific goal or win condition. You can't "win" a narrative, so there's no point in trying to. However, combat DOES have a win condition that people can plan around, so they do. Players want to win, and narrative goals aren't nearly as obvious as "deal 100 damage to save the princess".

So if it doesn't provide anything for combat, it's useless and pretty. A "ribbon".

That's... really sad, to be honest.

[Chronos]

I dunno; I'd never call a powerful out-of-combat ability a ribbon. Power is power, and the game's not all combat. I'd say that a ribbon is just any ability that adds more flavor than power.

Which is not to say that ribbon abilities offer no power at all. Maybe you really will face a challenge where proficiency with brewer's tools, or your clothes always being clean, or whatever, really will be just exactly the thing you needed to solve the problem, and it's cool when that happens. But that's probably not why you took those abilities.

[Gtdead]

I consider Divination the best overall because it allows the wizard to strike true and end encounters without being affected by luck.
Wizard doesn't have many ways to impose disadvantage on saving throws like sorcerer, no class specific ability to increase spell dc or int maximum.

In case of max level, I consider Bladesinger the best in combat situations. I'm not going to talk about the non combat situations because a high level wizard can be good at pretty much anything.

[noob]

your clothes always being clean
I want a character of whichever class grants that!

[Chronos]

That would be any class that grants Prestidigitation.

[noob]

That would be any class that grants Prestidigitation.

Can I during a fight in a sandstorm use prestidigitation to keep my clothes clean without spending actions?

[Chronos]

Well, OK, not "clothes always clean", but "clothes clean as soon as you have a spare moment to worry about them". Which is usually just as good.

[noob]

Well, OK, not "clothes always clean", but "clothes clean as soon as you have a spare moment to worry about them". Which is usually just as good.

It is the difference between an action movie hero(clothes clean as soon as you have a spare moment to worry about them) and a spaghetti western hero(clothes always clean even while diving in the mud and punching a villain).

[MaxWilson]

The War aspect comes from the fact that most wars are waged with armies, and with how Bounded Accuracy works, numbers is bigger than size.

What counters numbers? Casters.

What counters casters? A War Mage.

You put a War Mage in your army and now they can siege without risk of a Fireball or Call Lightning decimating them. In a way, they wage war against other mages. They are honed, specific, precise weapons, designed for one purpose.

War Mages are actually pretty bad in the scenario you describe here, compared to Abjurors. Their abilities are single-attack defense (worse than Arcane Ward in a mass battle against dozens of arrows when you do get noticed) and small bit of extra offense after a Counterspell... but no boost to their chances of actually Counterspelling successfully, which is the one job that they have.

Therefore, logically, Abjurors are War Mages, and War Mages are... Special Operations Mages or something. They're really good at making saving throws and keeping concentration on crucial spells like Wall of Force, so they're better in combats against monsters than defending armies from Fireballs. If 5e had spells to buff armies, War Mages would be good at keeping concentration up on those, but such spells don't exist AFAIK--Conjure Fire Elemental is about as close as it gets. So maybe that's their niche in war: summoning and counterspelling.

[Sigreid]

I've always liked Divination wizards, to me they make a lot of roleplaying sense and in 5th they gain Portent, which makes them awesome.

I've often thought of it like this, the reason Wizards are so powerful is because when they know what they are going against, they can plan out which spells to prepare and become a serious threat to any combatant. Wizards are studious, they are seekers of knowledge, which school of magic is designed to let them know more information?

A quote that describes Diviners the best would be "To be forewarned is to be forearmed". They are the ones who, from the perspective of others, "Just know things", and I love that about them. It just feels more "wizardly" to me to know a little more information than the next guy.

I can totally understand this. When I made a transmuter the thought process was a he was interested in unraveling and understanding the very nature of reality.

When I made my Evoker, well, I used google translate to name him the Romanian words for "Hold my Beer".