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MaxMahem
2007-09-26, 08:44 PM
What do you guys think about the merits of sticking with Barbarian for 20 levels vs taking Barbarian 10/Frenzied Berserker?

I'm playing a half-orc barbarian in a coming campaign and I'm wondering which rout to go. As a non-human I can't even qualify for Frenzied Berzerker until level 9 (needs 4 feats) at which point I will tantalizingly close to some of the better Barbarian abilities, especially DR 2/- and Greater rage at level 11. Of course is I stay in Barbarian for that I can never hit Frenzied Berserker 10 which has the awesome Supreme Power attack (1:4 trade off w/ THW), and tireless frenzy.

Of course since I can't get tireless rage tireless frenzy isn't that great for me. And if I was to simply stick with barbarian I would get that AND mighty rage as well as more DR and skill points.

I think my eventual plan is Barbarian 12/Frenzied Berserker 8 which gets my most of the good stuff of both. But what do you guys think?

Dhavaer
2007-09-26, 08:48 PM
Unless you're playing a solo campaign (and quite likely not even then) you don't want to be taking Frenzied Berserker. Supreme Power Attack isn't worth killing your party for.

Kyeudo
2007-09-26, 08:49 PM
Frenzied Berserkers are like atomic bombs. When they go off everything gets leveled.

Barbarians are like guided missiles. When they go off, only the enemy gets leveled.

Its all a matter of how much collateral damage you want to cause.

Frenzied Berserkers are easy enough to control. They can't balance while frenzied, so Grease is a no save you stay put effect.

Sucrose
2007-09-26, 09:19 PM
However, it demands that the party accomodate your build, and design tactics specifically to deal with your character. Frenzied Berserker is probably stronger than straight Barb, but talk with your party before entering it.

It has to be okay with everyone, and they'd need ironclad reasons to fight alongside a lunatic who would kill them almost as soon as the enemy.

Edit: As numerous people have pointed out, the method formerly here does not work. I've removed it for the sake of any who might have a short enough attention span to read the corrections.

Person_Man
2007-09-26, 10:47 PM
Barb 10/FB 10 is superior to Barb 20 in most cases, but only because a strait Barb is pretty weak. But a Barb 4/Fighter 2/PrC X/PrC Y (not including the FB) is a pretty solid build. There are a ton of different options out there.


Ending the Frenzy isn't a huge deal. There are a bunch of ways to deal with it - Contingency Calm Emotions, Iron Heart Surge, sky high Will Save.

The real problem is that your Frenzy activates by itself when you take damage unless you pass a Will Save = the total damage you've taken that round, and you must Save every time you take damage. So you tend to burn through your Frenzy uses when you don't need them, which wastes many (though not all) of the helpful abilities of the class.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-09-26, 10:48 PM
My previous D&D groups killed Frenzied Berserker PCs on sight. It was the only PrC the players themselves banned. You better get your group's permission, and come up with a few airtight ways to control him if he goes nuts. If you can't, just go barbarian, unless you like being beaten by hardcovers after dropping that little surprise at the gaming table.

Honestly, uber-damage with a chance of team-killing? It's like Wizards wanted barbarian players to antagonize the rest of their party.

OverdrivePrime
2007-09-26, 11:04 PM
A frenzied berserker isn't that hard to control as long as you've got a bard or a cleric in the party. Even if the frenzied berserker has high enough will saves to shrug off your rage-nullifying spells, at that point they often have enough self control to pull out of a frenzy.


The problem with the Frenzied berserker is that you need a cleric ready with a heal spell (or two... or three sometimes) to bring you up above negative ten hit points by the time your frenzy runs out. And since you're not a full barbarian, your frenzies/rages don't last as long as a full barbarian's rage. If you didn't manage to keep your cleric alive while frenzying, you're most likely going to die from those -200 hit points you've reached during the course of destroying an army of 500 giants in just 9 rounds.

Personally, I favor a falchion with a Frenzied berserker. Crit early, crit often, with less overdamage when you do.

Hecore
2007-09-26, 11:13 PM
8 ranks of knowledge(geography) and the endurance feat will allow you to become a Horizon Walker (http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm). Take one level of that and pick up Desert Terrain Mastery to become immune to fatigue -- thereby getting a better version of tireless frenzy/fury. It's a d8 class, but it's full BAB and you'd get +2 to your fortitude saves, so the one level dip is a great idea.

Solo
2007-09-26, 11:23 PM
8 ranks of knowledge(geography) and the endurance feat will allow you to become a Horizon Walker (http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm). Take one level of that and pick up Desert Terrain Mastery to become immune to fatigue -- thereby getting a better version of tireless frenzy/fury. It's a d8 class, but it's full BAB and you'd get +2 to your fortitude saves, so the one level dip is a great idea.

How would you get 8 ranks in K. Geo. if it isn't a class skill? Multiclass into ranger?

Renegade Paladin
2007-09-26, 11:35 PM
Avoid frenzied berserker at all costs. In my gaming group (and every one I've been in since the introduction of the class) taking levels in the class is a capital offense for any character.

Straight barbarian isn't too bad. It's not the most powerful thing you can do, but it isn't exactly weak. Actually, the only barbarian PrC I've ever taken is runescarred berserker; that one's all kinds of fun.

leperkhaun
2007-09-26, 11:36 PM
Last time my party had a FB, the BBEG payed petty thieves and assassins to try to kill him. They werent expected to live, just set him off. Eventually the king sent his personal guards out to kill the FB.

I highly recommend against it, they are just too easy to set off.

Edea
2007-09-27, 12:04 AM
The Friendly Berserker (mercury529) (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=861812)

Iron Heart Surge will be useless against ending a Frenzy; initiating a maneuver to remove a condition from yourself does not equal "attacking the nearest enemy to the best of your ability."

You could just, y'know, remove Frenzy entirely and rename it "Mighty Berserker." Maybe give it one of the rage abilities a character would normally miss because of not taking enough Barbarian levels. Or not.

Most people take the class for the Power Attack options afaik.

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-27, 12:06 AM
Reasons not to play a Frenzied Berserker:

1) Suspension of Disbelief
Think about it: What sane party would actually put up with a party member that flips out and kills them every so often?

2) Resource Management
You have no control over how you spend your frenzies per day. If you get hit in a fight, or by a trap, you frenzy, thus spending both your frenzy and at least a 2nd level spell for the party to bring you out of frenzy.

3) Lethality
If a sniper pegs you from far away, or a trap goes off and hits you, you KILL a party member, unless the right PC beats you on initiative to drop you out of frenzy with a calm emotions.


Aside- Can you use Iron Heart Surge in a frenzy? I might be wrong, but doesn't frenzy require that you attack. IHS isn't an attack.

TheOOB
2007-09-27, 12:10 AM
I played a frenzied berserker once, I killed five team-mates during my career, but they got better. I also killed the BBEG single handedly....and died at -500 something hp after my deathless frenzy ran out. My party didn't bother raising me that time.

If you can convince your DM to get you a magic item that restrains you on a command word, FB is totally worth it, otherwise it's not worth the risk.

Rad
2007-09-27, 01:58 AM
the Righteous Wrath feat (BoED) could be a walkaround if your DM allows it. Main drawbacks are that it is an Exalted feat, with heavy RP requirements, and that most DMs will disallow it because it pretty much defeats the drawback of the FB.
Plus, it does not explicitly mention frenzy.

Dhavaer
2007-09-27, 02:15 AM
And since you're not a full barbarian, your frenzies/rages don't last as long as a full barbarian's rage.

Rage duration is based on Consitutition, not Barbarian levels.

Zincorium
2007-09-27, 02:21 AM
Merciful weapons are a good deal when fighting things other than undead or constructs.

While the party may get knocked the heck out, there won't be casualties, and as a side benefit you can take enemies prisoner if it comes to it.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-27, 04:40 AM
You have no control over how you spend your frenzies per day.

Yes you do.^3

It's not his best save, but he can avoid spending a Frenzy with a Will save. People talk like having a stone in his shoe will set the guy off.


Rage duration is based on Consitutition, not Barbarian levels.

Barbarian 20 gets +8/+8 on his Rage. Frenzied Barbarian gets +14/+4(or +12/+6, or some similar combination). Always at least 1 round less than the straight Barbarian, without Extend Rage.

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-27, 04:45 AM
It's not his best save, but he can avoid spending a Frenzy with a Will save.

Emphasis mine. Barbarian into Frenzied Berserker doesn't exactly give you a spectacular save. I'm talking from experience here. I had a FB in a game I ran, and he rarely had any frenzies left by the time he got to the "Boss Fight".

EDIT- this may have had something to do with the villain being highly intelligent. hit and run tactics excel against frenzied berserkers.

Spiryt
2007-09-27, 05:15 AM
8 ranks of knowledge(geography) and the endurance feat will allow you to become a Horizon Walker (http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm). Take one level of that and pick up Desert Terrain Mastery to become immune to fatigue -- thereby getting a better version of tireless frenzy/fury. It's a d8 class, but it's full BAB and you'd get +2 to your fortitude saves, so the one level dip is a great idea.

Well, I always though that something like Barbarian1/Ranger 8 (or so) Fren.B could be quite nice.
You get skills, utility spells and things like track. Also you can max Wisdom (maybe in exchange of strenght even? You will anyway have sick amounts of strenght as Frenzied) for better Will save, and also for more Rangers spells (Also really nice spot/listen ec!)

And combo Frenzy + Rage + Leap attack + Rhino's Rush (ranger spell, double charge damage).
Also indeed you can exchage some Ranger levels for Horizon Walker nice stuff.

And, since I don't like to speak mechanically so much - the most important thing is that you will be Ranger/Frenzied Berserker - The Warrior of the Wilderness! :smallbiggrin:

Saph
2007-09-27, 05:29 AM
Reasons not to play a Frenzied Berserker:

1) Suspension of Disbelief
Think about it: What sane party would actually put up with a party member that flips out and kills them every so often?

This is really the big one. I mean, seriously, would YOU stay friends with a person who tried to kill you every time he bumped his head?


Aside- Can you use Iron Heart Surge in a frenzy? I might be wrong, but doesn't frenzy require that you attack. IHS isn't an attack.

There's no RAW answer to this, because IHS came out well after the Frenzied Berserker. It comes down to interpretation - a generous DM will allow it, a strict one won't. Personally I wouldn't, for the reason you list - when you're in a frenzy your priority is supposed to be killing everything in sight.

- Saph

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-27, 05:31 AM
Emphasis mine. Barbarian into Frenzied Berserker doesn't exactly give you a spectacular save. I'm talking from experience here. I had a FB in a game I ran, and he rarely had any frenzies left by the time he got to the "Boss Fight".

EDIT- this may have had something to do with the villain being highly intelligent. hit and run tactics excel against frenzied berserkers.

Barbarian 10 may not be the most optimal method, but it grants you DR 2/-. That alone is equal to an extra 4 Wisdom/2 1st levels in a strong Will Save class per attack. I'm pretty sure there's other methods as well. Natural Armour is so-so to acquire, doesn't interfere with his Fast Movement, and every point is another 5% less potential damage that you're taking. It does in fact trouble me that people see only the problems(failing to avoid Frenzying) and don't seem to be able to suggest solutions(reducing the incoming damage, blocking it altogether, etc.).

RoboticSheeple
2007-09-27, 08:40 AM
this isn't a question you ask a bunch of people on the internet. This is a question you ask your party.
Personally, whenever someone has said to me as a GM that they've wanted to play a FB I've told them that in the even they do frenzy they become an NPC under my control for the duration of the frenzy. That normally stops things, who wants to be a massive tank that never gets to fire the gun themselves?

OverdrivePrime
2007-09-27, 09:32 AM
Rage duration is based on Consitutition, not Barbarian levels.

Well, of course. However, a full barbarian gains a greater raging constitution boost over 20 levels than a barbarian 10 / frenzied berserker 10 does.

20th level barbarian in a rage: Strength +8, Constitution +8
10th level barbarian / 10th level frenzied berzerker in a rage & frenzy: Str +14, Constitution +4

A full barbarian gets another two rounds of rage. Not that this compensates for the damage differential, but still.

Cogwheel
2007-09-27, 09:39 AM
That, and FBs get an extra attack per round.

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-27, 09:40 AM
It does in fact trouble me that people see only the problems(failing to avoid Frenzying) and don't seem to be able to suggest solutions(reducing the incoming damage, blocking it altogether, etc.).

We aren't offering suggestions for playing Frenzied Berserkers for two reasons:

1) Frenzied Berserker optimization threads have already been linked to in this thread that do that very thing.

2) We don't think people should play Frenzied Berserkers. Just play a barbarian, or enter some other barbarian PrC. FB is made of cheese, and not particulary party or game friendly cheese either.

lord_khaine
2007-09-27, 09:51 AM
yeah its the sort of stinky cheese that has to be kept under a glas jar away from the other cheese.

Dausuul
2007-09-27, 09:55 AM
Edit: If your DM allows it, you have access to Tome of Battle, and you can hold off on entering Frenzied Berserker until level 10, at level 9 you could take a Warblade level and acquire Iron Heart Surge, which you could use to end frenzy prematurely as necessary.

You cannot use Iron Heart Surge to end frenzy. IHS is generally an ineffective counter to anything which controls your actions, because you must take a standard action to use it. Frenzy dictates that you must attack; you can't stop to fool around with Iron Heart Surge, otherwise you could just delay and delay with pointless actions until your frenzy wore off.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-09-27, 10:22 AM
2) We don't think people should play Frenzied Berserkers. Just play a barbarian, or enter some other barbarian PrC. FB is made of cheese, and not particulary party or game friendly cheese either.


And yet people will go suggesting Batman wizards and Clericzillas whenever it seems proper.:smallwink:

I personally find nothing wrong with Frenzied Berserker. Sure, it's cheese. But it's dangerous cheese. If you don't watch it closely then it'll stink up the game, but you can do it without killing your party, that village by the river, and an entire forest's worth of friendly woodland critters if you play carefully and smart.

That, and I know my IRL group wouldn't read everything about frenzy so when they'd say falling out of frenzy since all the enemies were dead it'd be priceless to tell them they have to turn on their party members...or that they might do it before getting to the enemy.*

*And even thats not a big deal since my group members sometimes enjoy beating the stuffing out of each other, just to get all the bad karma and what not out of the air.

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-27, 10:30 AM
And yet people will go suggesting Batman wizards and Clericzillas whenever it seems proper.

We can't help suggesting "write cleric or wizard on your character sheet and don't be stupid"

They are base classes after all. Heck, wizard has batman written all over it. Something about being an intelligence-based class kinda screams "USE EFFECTIVE SPELLS!!"

The problem doesn't lie with wizard or cleric anyway. It lies with the spells that they have access to.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-09-27, 10:34 AM
We can't help suggesting "write cleric or wizard on your character sheet and don't be stupid"

They are base classes after all. Heck, wizard has batman written all over it. Something about being an intelligence-based class kinda screams "USE EFFECTIVE SPELLS!!"

The problem doesn't lie with wizard or cleric anyway. It lies with the spells that they have access to.

And of course the problem doesn't lie with FB either. It lies with the frenzy they have access too. :smallwink:

In either case this little discussion probably doesn't help out the OP. All I'll say is FB is more effective then the regular barbarian but you need to be more careful about being reckless then ever before. If not, then it'll get out of hand. That, and you need to remember you can end a frenzy as a free action by making a DC 20 will save.

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-27, 10:42 AM
It doesn't matter if you are reckless or not, FB still kill party members. Unless through very careful and deliberate palnning that your party BARBARIAN is putting together you can prevent him from taking damage when no enemies are in range. Such as from traps, ranged attackers at extreme range or with Greater Invisibility.

Not to mention that barbarians are supposed to be reckless, not deliberate planners. If you play a FB that isn't reckless, you're pretty much meta-gaming. What part of barbarian/frenzied berserker evokes images of careful forethought and well-thought out plans to you?


Aside- Frenzy is a class feature that is built into the class. Spells are options, frenzy is hard-wired. If a DM says "no frenzy for your frenzied berserker', he is really saying 'no frenzied berserkers'. A DM that says 'no celerity, no timestop, no polymorph, and no contigency', on the other hand, is not saying 'no wizards'. Likewise, a DM that says 'no DMM/Persistent Spell/Nightstick cheese' is not saying 'no clerics'.

ColdBrew
2007-09-27, 10:47 AM
If you can't, just go barbarian, unless you like being beaten by hardcovers after dropping that little surprise at the gaming table.
You physically beat people for creating a character that might, one day, be the death of some other fictional character? Perhaps D&D is not the game for you. Might I suggest Animal Crossing, or perhaps Harvest Moon?


It doesn't matter if you are reckless or not, FB still kill party members. Unless through very careful and deliberate palnning that your party BARBARIAN is putting together you can prevent him from taking damage when no enemies are in range. Such as from traps, ranged attackers at extreme range or with Greater Invisibility.
You didn't even glance at the Friendly Berserker, did you? Be honest now.

Rad
2007-09-27, 10:48 AM
And yet people will go suggesting Batman wizards and Clericzillas whenever it seems proper.:smallwink:


Batman wizards are actually party friendly since the debuffing and battlefield control often rely on your party warrior or rogue. Grease is so much better because allows your rogue to sneak attack at a distance.
ClericZilla... is not party-friendly as it steals tha fighter's job. Yet it is hard to ban the PHB. You hear a lot of anti divine metamagic arguments though and, like polymorph, players sometimes come to a "just don't do it" agreement.

Spiryt
2007-09-27, 10:49 AM
Well, Frenzied may be powerful but for reasonable cost, definetly, and is one of few cool prestiges.

Look at other's from Complete Warrior...

Bear Warrior and Nature W, Warshaper - no comments, is there any hope of fighting without polymorphing in this game :smallyuk:

Cavalier, Kensai, Knight of the Chalice, Justicar - too many lawful prestiges, and many of them looks exactly friging same, or like variation of Paladin. Plus I'm Kensai is probably even more overpowered.

Halfling Outrider - I'm fighting on tha powerful riding dog. Also no comments this time.

Drunken Master- looks like a joke for me... Not bad one but still.

Et cetera...

ColdBrew
2007-09-27, 10:51 AM
Halfling Outrider - I'm fighting on tha powerful riding dog. Also no comments this time.
Enjoy the dog. I'll be rampaging through the countryside on my dinosaur, thanks.

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-27, 10:57 AM
You didn't even glance at the Friendly Berserker, did you? Be honest now.

Actually, I am quite familiar with Friendly Berserker. The problem I have with it is that it isn't a Frenzied Berserker. It just has 10 levels in Frenzied Berserker.

Also, I already mentioned this:


1) Frenzied Berserker optimization threads have already been linked to in this thread that do that very thing.

If you don't want to play a Frenzied Berserker, but want 10 levels in Frenzied Berserker, go right ahead and do that. But at that point you aren't playing a frenzied berserker anymore. You're playing a guy that hits things really hard and sometimes gets confused and knocks out your party members.

Friendly Berserker doesn't fix the resource management problem though. You are a lucky Berserker if you have frenzies left by the time you get through to the BBEG. Unless the DM is being nice to you. And given the horrendous brokenness of FB builds, your DM is more likely vindictive by the time the campaign comes to an end and you are going after the BBEG.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-27, 11:04 AM
There's also the simple matter of 1 level in Zulkir Champion for the FB, and Red Wizard for the party Arcanist. Instant failure of saves. Y'know, unless your DM is crazy enough to set up lots of Red Wizards sniping you with Scorching Ray or something.:smallyuk:

ColdBrew
2007-09-27, 11:05 AM
Actually, I am quite familiar with Friendly Berserker. The problem I have with it is that it isn't a Frenzied Berserker. It just has 10 levels in Frenzied Berserker.
Yeah, I'm just gonna let this one stand...


You're playing a guy that hits things really hard and sometimes gets confused and knocks out your party members.
Or you're playing a guy who lives on the edge of a nearly uncontrollable rage, suppressing it through force of will until he needs to unleash it in battle. I don't recall seeing an RP requirement that you must be mindless and lack all common sense to develop the ability to fly into a frenzy.


Friendly Berserker doesn't fix the resource management problem though. You are a lucky Berserker if you have frenzies left by the time you get through to the BBEG.
Or you save them for when you really need them, since the point of the Friendly Berserker is to retain control of when and if you enter a frenzy.


Unless the DM is being nice to you. And given the horrendous brokenness of FB builds,
Because we all know melee power wins D&D, amirite?


your DM is more likely vindictive by the time the campaign comes to an end and you are going after the BBEG.
Sounds like piss-poor DMing to me. Why is he vindictive that you kill things? Did he raise those orcs himself? Did they crawl, greasy and squirming, from his hideous birth canal? A DM who believes the PCs are his adversaries should not be a DM at all.

Tweekinator
2007-09-27, 11:05 AM
Yeah, Frenzied Berserker is totally the worst class evar. I mean, who as a Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker would have a Will save capable of meeting those DC 20s, or DC 10 + damage taken? If only there was some way to get a will save capable of making these astronomical checks. Perhaps a way to get Constitution instead of Wisdom to the save? Or perhaps a class feature that provides a bonus to the save? Sadly, it seems these, and any other methods will not be available anytime soon.

Oh, and quick nitpick to Callos_DeTerran: The Frenzied Berserker kills enemies before the non-enemies. At those who he considers enemies first.

Spiryt
2007-09-27, 11:11 AM
Well, there is a reason to have really high wisdom as a meele character. Quite appealing, at least for me.

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-27, 11:14 AM
Sounds like piss-poor DMing to me. Why is he vindictive that you kill things? Did he raise those orcs himself? Did they crawl, greasy and squirming, from his hideous birth canal? A DM who believes the PCs are his adversaries should not be a DM at all.

No, he's vindictive because you one shot encounters twice your CR with your Shock Trooper, pouncing FB 1000 dmg charge cheese. level 20 FB's routinely 1-shot Balors. Which are supposed to be a 20-25% party resource expending encounter at level 20. At least batman wizards have to expend 3-5 spell slots.

Not to mention that it doesn't take a vindictive DM to mess up your FB's resource management. All it takes is a well-played intelligent villain. The vindictiveness is the part where the DM enjoys taking your powergaming hide down a few notches.

ColdBrew
2007-09-27, 11:24 AM
No, he's vindictive because you one shot encounters twice your CR with your Shock Trooper, pouncing FB 1000 dmg charge cheese. level 20 FB's routinely 1-shot Balors.
Balors who don't fly or use any of their special abilities. Balors who allow a FB to get within charging distance and have a clear line of attack. Balors, in short, who act like target dummies.


Which are supposed to be a 20-25% party resource expending encounter at level 20. At least batman wizards have to expend 3-5 spell slots.
Because 3-5 spell slots is 20-25% of the party's resources.


The vindictiveness is the part where the DM enjoys taking your powergaming hide down a few notches.
The same DM who allowed the character into the campaign, then set up the encounters he blew through? He's a one trick pony, and you put him in situations where he gets to use his one trick to best advantage. I can see why you'd blame the PC there. :annoyed:

Rex Blunder
2007-09-27, 11:24 AM
While people sometimes say, "I'd like to try FB", they rarely say, "I'd like my friend who's playing a barbarian to try FB". So that might be a good test - imagine someone else in the party playing a FB, doing all the damage, and occasionally killing you, and your role being to avoid getting friendly-fired or restraining the FB via will-save spells. If that doesn't sound fun, then abandon the idea of playing a FB at once.

Tweekinator
2007-09-27, 11:25 AM
No, he's vindictive because you one shot encounters twice your CR with your Shock Trooper, pouncing FB 1000 dmg charge cheese. level 20 FB's routinely 1-shot Balors. Which are supposed to be a 20-25% party resource expending encounter at level 20. At least batman wizards have to expend 3-5 spell slots.

Not to mention that it doesn't take a vindictive DM to mess up your FB's resource management. All it takes is a well-played intelligent villain. The vindictiveness is the part where the DM enjoys taking your powergaming hide down a few notches.

Why do you play the balor as a big demon that hits things instead of the genius(24 Int) that can fly, entangle, has awesome spell-like abilities and once per day, summon another balor? A properly played balor should stand a good chance of wiping the floor with practically any party.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-27, 11:32 AM
While people sometimes say, "I'd like to try FB", they rarely say, "I'd like my friend who's playing a barbarian to try FB". So that might be a good test - imagine someone else in the party playing a FB, doing all the damage, and occasionally killing you, and your role being to avoid getting friendly-fired or restraining the FB via will-save spells. If that doesn't sound fun, then abandon the idea of playing a FB at once.

Hell yeah, I wanna play the guy with the force of nature at the end of his leash. "Go, destroy them all!"
"Yessum! GARRRAGHGRHAGH!!:smallannoyed: :smallmad: :smallfurious: "
"Now, HEEL!"
"Yessum.":smallsigh:

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-27, 11:37 AM
Actually, I don't cater to my party. The FB in my party was the source of more than one near-TPK. Largely because I really like ranger antagonists, and arrow from the woods, followed by ranger with HIPS really messed up the party on more than one occasion.

FB is broken, as is wizard, druid, cleric, etc. Wizard makes the whole party more bad-ass, as opposed to the FB, which keeps its brokenness to itself.


Probably also worth noting that the OP's question was Barb 20 vs. Barb 10 FB 10. All my critics on FB are 100% valid for Barb 10 FB 10. Less so for your Cleric/Fighter/FB/Ordained Champion, Lion Barbarian charging monstrosity.

Lion Barbarian . . . who thought that was a good idea?!

Spiryt
2007-09-27, 11:41 AM
Slighty OT guys, but how do we should calculate for example FB imroved power attack + leap attack? Always confuses me.

cupkeyk
2007-09-27, 11:45 AM
Has anyone mentioned that FB totally wastes two feat slots? Intimidating Rage and Destructive Rage are both lousy feats. Meanwhile, I would point out that he is a half-orc. He could dump his damage reduction and deal 2x his str bonus to weapon damage with two handed weapons(substitution level from RoD). Add leap attack and Lion Totem and a Barb twenty ain't bad; not good, but not bad.

PhallicWarrior
2007-09-27, 11:50 AM
This is really the big one. I mean, seriously, would YOU stay friends with a person who tried to kill you every time he bumped his head?


Why does Kane work with Lynch?

ColdBrew
2007-09-27, 11:51 AM
Actually, I don't cater to my party. The FB in my party was the source of more than one near-TPK. Largely because I really like ranger antagonists, and arrow from the woods, followed by ranger with HIPS really messed up the party on more than one occasion.
There are easier ways to kill the party than by allowing in a ticking time bomb and lighting the fuse yourself. I prefer "Rocks fall, everybody dies." At least it's honest about your intentions.


Probably also worth noting that the OP's question was Barb 20 vs. Barb 10 FB 10. All my critics on FB are 100% valid for Barb 10 FB 10.
Most of your criticisms of the FB seem to rest on other shoulders. However, choosing between those two sets of levels, it's still not cut and dry. It's ultimately up to the rest of the party to decide if they're willing to accept the increased risk of having a FB around (which the player can take steps to mitigate) in exchange for the increased power. They're both playable, and a FB is not the guaranteed TPK that people are getting hysterical about.


Less so for your Cleric/Fighter/FB/Ordained Champion, Lion Barbarian charging monstrosity.
Not my build, but thanks for the compliment. It is a well-crafted and technically admirable arrangement.


Lion Barbarian . . . who thought that was a good idea?!
Evidently, writers, editors, and R&D at WotC.


Slighty OT guys, but how do we should calculate for example FB imroved power attack + leap attack? Always confuses me.
Complete Adventurer errata changed Leap Attack to simply +100% Power Attack return.

RTGoodman
2007-09-27, 12:02 PM
He could dump his damage reduction and deal 2x his str bonus to weapon damage with two handed weapons(substitution level from RoD). Add leap attack and Lion Totem and a Barb twenty ain't bad; not good, but not bad.

I'm not sure what version of Races of Destiny you're using, but mine says that if a character takes the 7th level half-orc barbarian racial substitution level, he "gains a +2 bonus on damage rolls with any two-handed melee weapon."

That's nothing close to dealing 2x damage. And for a FB, that damage reduction could mean the difference between wasting a frenzy because of some silly little trap or whatnot.

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-27, 12:04 PM
There are easier ways to kill the party than by allowing in a ticking time bomb and lighting the fuse yourself. I prefer "Rocks fall, everybody dies." At least it's honest about your intentions.

You seem to be implying that I desired to kill my party. I like rangers. I like stealth-based encounters. I let someone play an FB. These are all seperate facts. In my defense, this was my first experience with a FB PC. And an intelligent villain ought to try and exploit the weaknesses of the party.

Fortunately, he wasn't a leap attack/lion barb/etc. crazy FB, just a Fighter/Barb/FB with Power attack.

The end result was several near TPKs.

ColdBrew
2007-09-27, 12:10 PM
The end result was several near TPKs.
It doesn't have to be that way. A FB can be a net gain for the party.

The_Werebear
2007-09-27, 12:41 PM
A merciful weapon completely neutralizes any FB danger. Sure you are out for 8 hours, but the sleep was probably needed anyway.

Another slightly more cheesy way. Declare that you FB hates trees, grass, and walls. Whenever the enemies go away, he sees those as better targets than the party. After all...they could be quite dangerous (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0150.html)

ColdBrew
2007-09-27, 01:00 PM
I think you'd have a hard time arguing that one.

Ralfarius
2007-09-27, 01:00 PM
I'm gonna have to go with ColdBrew on this one. From a pure numbers standpoint, a Frenzied Berzerker has a greater chance of turning on the party than say, a wizard/CoDzilla. However, there's plenty of ways to optimize and/or play a FB to not be this friend-killing, brainless death machine.

Beyond that, there's also plenty of ways for intelligent foes to counter the FB's uber-death, mainly through preventing themselves from entering melee combat. I mean, would the BBEG who sees that the party has some half-crazy, greatsword-swinging, chunky-salsa-machine reason that perhaps it would be in his best interests to confront the party when he'll be well out of the FB's reach? Certainly, the party could counter that with spells and what have you, to bring him down into the Freaking Blender's range, but then everyone is putting forth effort anyhow.

Also, concerning the whole "why would the party keep a nutjob around?" question:
That all depends on the role playing aspect of the game. If Bob the Barbarian has been a solid member of the team for so many adventures, would the party not have a strong connection and concern for his welfare? Sure, they're going to be surprised, the first time Bob flies off the handle and beats one of them senseless, but they've all saved each other's lives so many times, would they really end it all over one incident?

Perhaps Bob is slipping further and further into his Freaking Blender ways. It certainly puts a good deal of strain on his relationship with the rest of the party. Now, it's one thing to say they'd simply cut and run, leave Bob to his own devices. However, if they really care about Bob, wouldn't they be doing their best to try and help him keep it together? Maybe even make a point of keeping an eye on him so he doesn't flip out and tear apart some unsuspecting hamlet? Sure, he has a tendency to froth at the mouth more often and sweat the little things, but damn it he's still Bob! Bob, the guy who kept Jim the wizard from being eaten by that ghoul, or who took the brunt of that Hydra's attacks when Steve the rogue was hurt!

Besides, get Bob pointed in the right direction, and he'll really help the party succeed at whatever they're trying to accomplish (re: kill).

I think the FB has plenty of opportunity for fun gaming. one just has to remember that the entire group has to agree to something quite so cheesy. If they're not feeling like it would be fun for everyone, then avoid it like the plague. It doesn't matter how fun you think it would be, it's about everyone at the table enjoying their time.

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-27, 10:44 PM
It doesn't have to be that way. A FB can be a net gain for the party.

Can be, yes. Likely to be, no (it takes extra work). Wound up being in that specific instance, no.

You also have to put extra work into not flying off the handle in small encounters, thus wasting frenzies that should have been saved for bigger encounters. How many frenzies/day does an FB get, anyway?

MaxMahem
2007-09-27, 11:39 PM
I appreciate everyones input on this, though I think some of you are a little hard on the uncontrollable nature of the Frenzied Berserker. As I calculate it by the time I'm ready to hit my first FB level (at level 12) my will save should be at least +6 (+3 base, +3 Greater Rage, +1 cloak of resistance, -1 wis) which gives me about a 30% chance of breaking out of the frenzy on my own. When I take steadfast determination at level 15 it should be at least +15 (+4 base, +3 greater rage, +1 cloak, +6 con) and I would break out nearly 75% of the time. This is assuming I do not come across any other magical items that might further boost my stats.

Also thanks for my parties feelings into consideration. They are all cool with it. It is important to note that this character is starting at level 3, so there will be at least 6 levels of adventuring together before he starts to go down the FB path. There is plenty of precedent for people teaming with a "berserker" in fantasy, for example Orson in "Records of the Lodoss War" (which is itself a re-telling of a D&D campaign).

---

Perhapses more to the point I was more curious as to which was superior, Barb 10/FB 10 or Barb 12/FB 8. Barb 12 give me more DR and Greater rage, while FB 10 gives me supream power attack. Which would you guys perfer, more Str/Con and DR or +4/1 power attack trade off?

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-28, 01:50 AM
Which would you guys perfer, more Str/Con and DR or +4/1 power attack trade off?

I would say wait until you have to make that choice. If you find that you aren't dealing enough damage to drop enemies with a couple full attacks, then take the FB all the way to 10. Otherwise, go for the better DR.

From a purely flavor standpoint, I hate going into PrCs unless I plan on finishing them. But that's just me.

lord_khaine
2007-09-28, 02:31 AM
unfortunately 30% is a very big chance when it means you will then follow up with a flying charge into the face of whatever friend you got thats closest.

Rad
2007-09-28, 04:22 AM
Perhapses more to the point I was more curious as to which was superior, Barb 10/FB 10 or Barb 12/FB 8. Barb 12 give me more DR and Greater rage, while FB 10 gives me supream power attack. Which would you guys perfer, more Str/Con and DR or +4/1 power attack trade off?

I'd rather get something at level 12 than at level 20.
Obviously that way you are delaying all the FB class features so the previous sentence is an oversimplification. However consider how much time you will enjoy your abilities as well as IF you are getting there. No campaign goes on forever and some end well before level 20.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-09-28, 10:11 AM
Oh, and quick nitpick to Callos_DeTerran: The Frenzied Berserker kills enemies before the non-enemies. At those who he considers enemies first.

So my Complete Warrior informs me...well I guess I just save my evil smile for once all the enemies drop. (Depending on who's the FB, that save might never be made)


Also another helpful point of information. Ring of Regeneration if you go the FB route. As far as I can tell (And I'm sure someone will correct me in a moment) non-lethal damage doesn't set off a frenzy before your ready to.

Starbuck_II
2007-09-28, 11:57 AM
Complete Adventurer errata changed Leap Attack to simply +100% Power Attack return.

Nope, the errata errated the 1 handed version.
You still do triple the 2 for 1 that 2 handed deals: so 1 to 6 for 2 handed.

squishycube
2007-09-28, 04:26 PM
As always when barbarian prestige classes come up, I will mention the Giant Fury (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11404) prestige class. It was created by me, and as much as I hate to plug my own work, I still do (and I don't really hate it either).

As mentioned the class is homebrew and needs a little polishing, but it does focus on rage like the FB but in a slightly different way.

MaxMahem
2007-09-29, 03:18 PM
Also another helpful point of information. Ring of Regeneration if you go the FB route. As far as I can tell (And I'm sure someone will correct me in a moment) non-lethal damage doesn't set off a frenzy before your ready to.

Well a Ring of Regeneration doesn't grant you the regeneration ability like Trolls or the Tarasque have. It just means you heal damage at a faster rate (1 HP per hour). All damage you take is still normal lethal damage.

Not sure how my DM would rule on this, but even if it did work that way I would argue that it would still probably trigger the FB Frenzy, even if it was non-lethal damage. Getting a spear or something shoved through you still hurts, even if it isn't technically lethal.