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Pippin
2019-02-15, 04:43 AM
Hi there,

I was looking for different ways to qualify for Thrallherd before ECL5 and I browsed this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127103-Raising-ML). I am somewhat disappointed because to me, "Manifester level 5th" means your manifester level is greater than or equal to 5, as opposed to, your manifester level is treated as 5 or higher when manifesting X.

Are there actual ways to increase your manifester level? Thanks.

Thedez
2019-02-15, 04:48 AM
Well, not that I can think of, but I think we can possibly take this query in a different direction. Practiced Manifester would make it so your ECL 5 Thrallherd would work no matter what the other levels are, so is there anything in the build you have that could enter at a sooner ECL? You could technically go Ardent with Practiced Manifester to stuff two to three levels of something else in there, which would allow you to artificially reduce the number of base-class levels in your build.

Pippin
2019-02-15, 05:17 AM
Well, not that I can think of, but I think we can possibly take this query in a different direction. Practiced Manifester would make it so your ECL 5 Thrallherd would work no matter what the other levels are, so is there anything in the build you have that could enter at a sooner ECL? You could technically go Ardent with Practiced Manifester to stuff two to three levels of something else in there, which would allow you to artificially reduce the number of base-class levels in your build.
Well no, the only other PrC I'm interested in is Constructor, and the same condition is required.

I guess I'm looking for an item that would grant, for example, a +1 insight bonus to manifester level, buy 4 copies of it, then hire/charm/dominate an Artificer that would transform each insight bonus into an enhancement/luck/circumstance bonus. In the end I would be ECL1 with a manifester level of 1+4.

Victory. But I know of no such item.

Ruethgar
2019-02-15, 06:17 AM
Practiced Manifester on any of a number of Awakened Animals. They have their ECLs set directly instead of having a LA/RHD combo... at least until the DM throws a book at you. While this might be manageable with a toad, an advanced monkey gets pretty potent, and a Magebred Titanic Awakened Monkey is also only ECL 0 which gets downright broken.

Pippin
2019-02-15, 06:27 AM
Practiced Manifester on any of a number of Awakened Anomals. They have their ECLs set directly instead of having a LA/RHD combo... at least until the DM throws a book at you. While this might be manageable with a toad, an advanced monkey gets pretty potent, and a Magebred Titanic Awakened Monkey is also only ECL 0 which gets downright broken.
I'm sorry, I didn't understand how awakening a few animals would help me raise my ML to 5?

Let's all assume that the PC at hand is ECL1: Telepath 1. Practiced Manifester isn't really useful at this point.

Anthrowhale
2019-02-15, 08:07 AM
This probably doesn't work in your context, but the best way to raise manifester level is to raise caster level and then cast Mental Pinnacle.

Jack_Simth
2019-02-15, 08:19 AM
An Orange Prism Ioun stone, perhaps? Says it boosts caster level, but that... probably should also apply to manifester level under transparency.

Pippin
2019-02-15, 10:30 AM
An Orange Prism Ioun stone, perhaps? Says it boosts caster level, but that... probably should also apply to manifester level under transparency.
My fear is that, since the bonus is untyped, Item Alteration can't apply.

ben-zayb
2019-02-15, 11:40 AM
If an effect that would increase CL also increase ML, then here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444635-Raising-Caster-Level)'s a good place to find what you are looking for.

Ruethgar
2019-02-15, 11:43 AM
I'm sorry, I didn't understand how awakening a few animals would help me raise my ML to 5?

Let's all assume that the PC at hand is ECL1: Telepath 1. Practiced Manifester isn't really useful at this point.

The player is an Awakened Cat ECL 1 Telepath 1. He takes Practiced Manifester and his ML goes up to 4. A fully advanced Awakened Monkey Telepath 1 is also ECL 1, however with Practiced Manifester he has an ML of 5. However, because that was obviously not intended, any reasonable GM would update the 3.0 content allowing this and cause it to fail.

Also a Telepath 1/Bloodline 74 is also ECL 1 with an ML of 75, though requires you have 1k XP so you would become ECL 2 thereafter from leveling up. Also, most GMs, if they even allow bloodlines, will houserule that they actually cost something and typically that you can only have one.

There is of course the PunPun method to get whatever you want. Also, if you find a creature with a Natural ability to manifest at 5+ ML you can wish to be one and then wish back since you don’t lose Natural abilities with wish race changes.

Telepath 2/Bloodline 3 is significantly more reasonable if Bloodlines cost you the XP they require like a magic item, so minimum 4000xp to get ML 5 at ECL 2. Awakened Animal abuse is probably never reasonable unless you’re a lower op char in a TO group and even then it’s a bit fishy.

Kalkra
2019-02-15, 11:49 AM
You could save one level by going dipping three psionic classes and taking level in a major bloodline. That'll give you an ML of six in four levels, but it has the downside of losing you some progression.

MaxiDuRaritry
2019-02-15, 12:49 PM
Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) increases your manifester level to your HD (along with some very nice additional benefits) in a similar way to Practiced Manifester, though it affects all of your manifesting classes (as well as any racial "Psionics" you might have). You could take 5 levels of manifesting classes and have ML 5 in all of them (or more, if you have racial HD).

According to the MIC, you can use psionic prereqs of a similar nature to magic prereqs to create psionic versions of magic items, so even if a regular orange ioun stone doesn't work, you can still get your hands on a psionic version thereof.

Rijan_Sai
2019-02-15, 02:07 PM
You could save one level by going dipping three psionic classes and taking level in a major bloodline. That'll give you an ML of six in four levels, but it has the downside of losing you some progression.

Unfortunately, Manifester Levels do not stack in that manner, the same way the Caster Levels from (for example) Wizard, Cleric, and Bard would not stack.

That combo would get you ML 2 in three different classes, but not a combined ML 6.


Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) increases your manifester level to your HD (along with some very nice additional benefits) in a similar way to Practiced Manifester, though it affects all of your manifesting classes (as well as any racial "Psionics" you might have). You could take 5 levels of manifesting classes and have ML 5 in all of them (or more, if you have racial HD).
This, however, is somewhat dirty and might actually work.

Powerdork
2019-02-15, 02:44 PM
Unfortunately, Manifester Levels do not stack in that manner, the same way the Caster Levels from (for example) Wizard, Cleric, and Bard would not stack.

That combo would get you ML 2 in three different classes, but not a combined ML 6.

I think the idea is that (because you can take your bloodline levels at any time, and the bloodline benefits only stop coming if you haven't taken the levels by a certain point) you take all 3 bloodline levels at once, as well as those manifester classes.

MaxiDuRaritry
2019-02-15, 02:52 PM
This, however, is somewhat dirty and might actually work.It's a good way to get tons of pp in epic levels, where you typically can't get more without spending tons of feats or vastly increasing your manifesting ability scores (though those still work, the latter being WAY more efficient if you multiclass with Supernatural Transformation).

A psion 20/wilder 1/ardent 1/psychic warrior 1 has a vastly larger pp pool with S.T. than without it.

Also use with other ways to stack MLs and CLs of different classes, such as the psi version of spell(psi)thief + Master Spell(Psi)thief, or mind mage (or both).

Pippin
2019-02-15, 04:21 PM
Thank you all very much for your replies.

If I'm not mistaken from what I've read, the easiest solution for my predicament would be to start the PC (Telepath 1) with a major bloodline, pass all 3 levels before leveling up, get a (Psionic, DM-agreed) Orange Ioun Stone and be sure to have Practiced Manifester and Inquisitor as 1st level feats. The last problem is to figure out how to start with 8 ranks in Knowledge (Psionics) and not just 4. I don't remember how but I know there's a trick somewhere for that, so I'll be looking into that.

Thanks a lot!

MaxiDuRaritry
2019-02-15, 04:25 PM
Don't UA bloodline levels increase your skill cap?

tyckspoon
2019-02-15, 04:34 PM
Don't UA bloodline levels increase your skill cap?

It does, but it doesn't grant any skill points to actually increase your skill ranks with. You'd need to get yourself Psychic Reformation'd so you could repick your skills or find some other way to gain new skill points after acquiring the bloodline levels.

Ruethgar
2019-02-15, 06:41 PM
It does, but it doesn't grant any skill points to actually increase your skill ranks with. You'd need to get yourself Psychic Reformation'd so you could repick your skills or find some other way to gain new skill points after acquiring the bloodline levels.

Humans may be an exception to this, potentially granting their +1/level on bloodline levels as well. Also, while there is a limit on ranks in a skill, there isn't a limit on the points invested in it, which is probably one reason why PF eliminated them. So you could theoretically spend all of your 1st level points in one skill and just not benefit until your max ranks went up to match.

Pippin
2019-02-16, 05:53 AM
Since Bloodlines have been brought up, let's say my ECL1 character takes 1-3 bloodline level(s), then dies. Does he come back with one fewer bloodline level, or with a -2 CON penalty?

magic9mushroom
2019-02-16, 06:37 AM
An Orange Prism Ioun stone, perhaps? Says it boosts caster level, but that... probably should also apply to manifester level under transparency.
Transparency doesn't go that far. Caster level and manifester level are different things.

According to the MIC, you can use psionic prereqs of a similar nature to magic prereqs to create psionic versions of magic items, so even if a regular orange ioun stone doesn't work, you can still get your hands on a psionic version thereof.
You could, but it would still increase caster level because a "psionic version" of a magic item still does the same thing as the magic version. :P

Thank you all very much for your replies.

If I'm not mistaken from what I've read, the easiest solution for my predicament would be to start the PC (Telepath 1) with a major bloodline, pass all 3 levels before leveling up, get a (Psionic, DM-agreed) Orange Ioun Stone and be sure to have Practiced Manifester and Inquisitor as 1st level feats. The last problem is to figure out how to start with 8 ranks in Knowledge (Psionics) and not just 4. I don't remember how but I know there's a trick somewhere for that, so I'll be looking into that.

Thanks a lot!
I should note that Bloodlines, like everything out of UA, are variant rules and are not actually legal unless the DM specifically says they're using that variant.

Also, Bloodlines are badly written and unless you trick your DM or are in a TO-level game, they'll be either banned or ruled to work in a less favourable way than the TO interpretation.

Pippin
2019-02-16, 06:54 AM
You could, but it would still increase caster level because a "psionic version" of a magic item still does the same thing as the magic version. :P
That sounds way too narrow-minded/intransigent to be reasonable, don't you think.

magic9mushroom
2019-02-17, 10:56 PM
That sounds way too narrow-minded/intransigent to be reasonable, don't you think.

There's a saying in optimisation circles: "Live by the RAW, die by the RAW". We left "reasonable" far behind when we started talking about using Item Alteration to cheese early entry into Thrallherd.

It's also not particularly reasonable to rule that it's as easy to boost ML as CL, because ML is more important than CL. There's a reason Practiced Manifester is held up as an example of Complete Psionic being poorly-written.

Pippin
2019-02-18, 02:12 AM
There's a saying in optimisation circles: "Live by the RAW, die by the RAW". We left "reasonable" far behind when we started talking about using Item Alteration to cheese early entry into Thrallherd.
Oh okay, you have a point.

Segev
2019-02-18, 02:58 AM
Remember that Thrallherd level limits on your Thrall are still based on your character level, so even if you cheese in early, you’re probably not getting much impressive out of it. Hiring a skilled warrior hireling would be just as effective, especially if you abuse Psionic Charm to keep him loyal.

magic9mushroom
2019-02-18, 04:22 AM
Remember that Thrallherd level limits on your Thrall are still based on your character level, so even if you cheese in early, you’re probably not getting much impressive out of it. Hiring a skilled warrior hireling would be just as effective, especially if you abuse Psionic Charm to keep him loyal.

The advantage of cheesing in early is that you have less levels of base Psion and more of PrCs; Psion 1/Thrallherd 10/Anarchic Initiate 9 is better than Psion 5/Thrallherd 10/Anarchic Initiate 5 (assuming you can actually get the former to work).

Also, the big thing making Thrallherd +2 instead of +1 is precisely that you can abuse your thralls and believers and they'll auto-replenish in 24 hours anyway. A Thrallherd can BoVD-sacrifice her thralls and believers for dark craft XP and GP, which wouldn't work as well with Leadership or hirelings (Leadership score gets penalties for cruelty and for murdering your cohorts/followers, and they take 1d4 months to come back, while hirelings take effort and would get a Sense Motive roll). In a less cartoon-villain campaign, you can still use believers as disposable scouts and trap-finders.

(Getting Twofold Master earlier is also notable.)

Segev
2019-02-18, 10:37 AM
The advantage of cheesing in early is that you have less levels of base Psion and more of PrCs; Psion 1/Thrallherd 10/Anarchic Initiate 9 is better than Psion 5/Thrallherd 10/Anarchic Initiate 5 (assuming you can actually get the former to work).

Also, the big thing making Thrallherd +2 instead of +1 is precisely that you can abuse your thralls and believers and they'll auto-replenish in 24 hours anyway. A Thrallherd can BoVD-sacrifice her thralls and believers for dark craft XP and GP, which wouldn't work as well with Leadership or hirelings (Leadership score gets penalties for cruelty and for murdering your cohorts/followers, and they take 1d4 months to come back, while hirelings take effort and would get a Sense Motive roll). In a less cartoon-villain campaign, you can still use believers as disposable scouts and trap-finders.

(Getting Twofold Master earlier is also notable.)

My point about Psionic Charm was more that you shouldn't have a problem abusing your hirelings with it if you're going into Thrallherd. If you're planning to do multiple PrCs, perhaps you could get more mileage out of early entry into the one that isn't Thrallherd, if it has something other than ML 5 as a prereq. Sounds like that's not the case, though.

Thrallherd's skill requirement is also going to keep you from early entry; I know of no way to get 8 ranks in a skill before level 5.

If you want to juggle other base classes, a wizard with precocious apprentice and Practiced Spellcaster could get you...no, you're still not hitting PrCs until level 6 (because you need CL 5 for Mindbender, which is what I was going to suggest 1 level of for the at-will telepathy).

The most generic ML-boost I can think of is Overchannel, which at least says your ML increases, period, when you use it, but it is only for one manifestation at a time, not actually a permanent ML-increase. (For that matter, Wilders' Wild Surge does the same.)

With Precocious Apprentice, Ardent, and Practiced Manifester, you could get into Cerebremancer as your 4th level, and for 4th and 5th level advance both Wizard and Ardent (probably taking 2 levels of Wizard, 1 level of Ardent, then 2 levels of Cerebremancer, for effectively 4 levels of Wizard and 3 of Ardent with an ML of 5 on Ardent by level 5). Of course, you're behind a bit on powers known for Ardent, but you CAN know up to 3rd level powers. You're also abandoning Wizard at this point for Thrallherd, which makes one question the utility of it.

Pippin
2019-02-18, 03:19 PM
Thrallherd's skill requirement is also going to keep you from early entry; I know of no way to get 8 ranks in a skill before level 5.
I'm not going to deny and say that one should get early entry without any serious talk with the DM.

That being said, if a PC is Evil as Psychic Reformation is being manifested on him, it doesn't seem very coherent to let him reassign himself an Exalted feat 3 levels back. It sounds reasonable to say that the present situation must be considered as the feats & skills are being reassigned. This legitimates the fact that if the PC is under Inspire Greatness, then he should be able to fill N+3+2 ranks at any given class skill, rather than N+3, when his Nth level-up is being recalculated. I can't see anything solid the DM could use to argue against that. Have I overlooked anything?

The Psionic Orange Ioun Stone was the most unconvincing part I think. This evening it occurred to me that it's always possible to hire/charm/dominate a few bards that would use Inspire Greatness on the PC all day long, in turns. If the PC has Practiced Manifester as well as three bloodline levels, then his ML equals 1+3+2 all day long, which is enough to qualify.

Ruethgar
2019-02-18, 04:09 PM
Laborious Training from Ravenloft is in that weird semi-official zone like Dragonlance and Kalamar and lets you breach the skill cap by 2 for Int based skills only. Also of course Primary Contact puts you at 8 possible ranks in Know(Psionics) with just Telepath 1/Bloodline 3 and is significantly more official. And of course as mentioned before, Awakened Animal ECLs are set directly instead of having a set LA so you could be any of the ECL 0 ones and have enough max skill ranks to qualify at a much earlier ECL without having to rely on the slightly shaky ground of temporary boosts.

Pippin
2019-02-18, 06:00 PM
Laborious Training from Ravenloft is in that weird semi-official zone like Dragonlance and Kalamar and lets you breach the skill cap by 2 for Int based skills only. Also of course Primary Contact puts you at 8 possible ranks in Know(Psionics) with just Telepath 1/Bloodline 3 and is significantly more official. And of course as mentioned before, Awakened Animal ECLs are set directly instead of having a set LA so you could be any of the ECL 0 ones and have enough max skill ranks to qualify at a much earlier ECL without having to rely on the slightly shaky ground of temporary boosts.
Sorry I can't seem to get it, someone will have to break it down for me. How do you justify to your DM that you are an awaken animal? with a bloodline? Telepath 1? free to leave the spellcaster who awoke you?

Or if you prefer, you can throw me a link that brings every detail about this. Thank you!

Rebel7284
2019-02-18, 06:44 PM
Human Were-Fleshraker Telepath 1/Animal 4 qualifies for Thrallherd with Practiced Manifester. Make sure to cure Lycanthropy at some point after you self qualify.

Ruethgar
2019-02-18, 06:56 PM
Sorry I can't seem to get it, someone will have to break it down for me. How do you justify to your DM that you are an awaken animal? with a bloodline? Telepath 1? free to leave the spellcaster who awoke you?

Or if you prefer, you can throw me a link that brings every detail about this. Thank you!
Awakened Animals are playable races just like human and elf. Unless you are Commanded or Rebuked or otherwise charmed or coerced into staying with the one who awakened you, you are free to leave whenever you like. Awaken does not make slaves or minions, it just makes creatures friendly to the caster.

Simple explanations: Your awakener was murdered and you vow revenge. That eliminated the potentially very powerful NPC ally and gets you adventuring. Your awakener and yourself grew apart as friends do. He left your forest home a long time ago and you haven't seen him since. He was abusive, forcing you to obey with his magics so you ran away. You are an awakened migratory species and the awakener is stationary. You don't like how the awakener is conducting his business and don't want to be a part of it. Could just not even have an awakener and instead be fluffed as born from Hengeyokai or Tibbits as throwback to your animal roots or a born from a lycan where the animal dominated.

As the prodigy of a line of sorcerer familiars, it could easily be said that the magic of their bloodline(default dragon) mixed with yours. Also dragons, fey, and outsiders can and do breed with any and everything on occasion. Also, planes have been known to influence races over generations, maybe you're a cat from the Fey Wilds and are infused with a bit of their magic. Also Baleful Polymorph is a thing and can easily result in strange bloodlines.

As far as class, pick any background that allows you to be a telepath and say you watched from the sidelines learning in secret since no one bothered to notice the cat doing what cats do, stare at you for long periods of time. Or learned from Hengeyokai who would probably be completely accepting of awakened animals in their society since that's basically what they all are.

Pippin
2019-02-18, 11:45 PM
A smile took shape on my face as I was reading the post above :smallbiggrin:


An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence
There's still a chance that you might not be able to manifest Mindlink with this. Regardless, wouldn't that ruin the point of TO to start a Telepath 1 with an INT score of 9 or less? How do you make up for that?

I'm guessing there might be a way to be a maximised Awaken animal, but I wouldn't get away with it without any justification brought to the DM.

MaxiDuRaritry
2019-02-18, 11:59 PM
There's still a chance that you might not be able to manifest Mindlink with this. Regardless, wouldn't that ruin the point of TO to start a Telepath 1 with an INT score of 9 or less? How do you make up for that?Age, if you've got a native 8+. You could also start with a template that improves Int, or if you're starting with enough WBL, a headband of Int. Or how about horseshoes of flame, from Savage Species? Pay an extra 2/5 cost for at will or Permanent instead of 3/day. If needed, transfer from horseshoes to wolf booties and wear all of them. For even more fun, make all of your wolf booties gloves of man for prehensile paws on all four feet.


I'm guessing there might be a way to be a maximised Awaken animal, but I wouldn't get away with it without any justification brought to the DM.If you're starting out at a higher level, pay for NPC spellcasting services pricing for a casting of Maximized + Empowered awaken.

Pippin
2019-02-19, 03:11 AM
As a rule I try to avoid magic items as much as I can. Your PC becomes so much weaker when he loses some or all of his items, I'd rather he not have any at all and be operational without anything but his class abilities, feats and powers. I'd prefer to bargain with the DM and take VoP for example.

Back to Awaken, can you really start some random character, get a maximised, empowered casting out of him (be it with his own abilities or with his money), then tell the DM, okay, I'm going to play that monkey now. Not that I don't want to, the spell would grant 18 + 5 points to INT if I'm not mistaken, that's awesome. The CHA score is terrible though.

Also, how exactly would the two-HD bonus work, do I have a +2 level ajustement? Why or why not? Thanks.

Heliomance
2019-02-19, 10:14 AM
Transparency doesn't go that far. Caster level and manifester level are different things.

Unless you're an Ardent with the Magic mantle, as I recall

Ruethgar
2019-02-19, 11:20 AM
Also, how exactly would the two-HD bonus work, do I have a +2 level ajustement? Why or why not? Thanks.

Because the Dragon Magazine article granting Awakened Animals an ECL sets the ECL directly, you have a malleable LA - X where X is your RHD for Cat, Rat, Toad, Lizard, and Monkey. Because this doesn’t care about templates or advancement, it just automatically sets any listed animal’s ECL directly upon awakening, you could be for example a Titanic Dungeonbred, Magebred, Warbeast, Awakened Lizard and start with 28 HD at ECL 0. Throw on Dragontouched and (Improved)Dragon wings if you’re going that far and can dodge the DMGs to the face.

Because the material is late 3.0, GMs do have full license to update it and remove this ridiculousness, but the free HD is why I suggest them for TO builds since by default RAW they have it.

As to a maximized awaken, I just imagined an arrogant druid who wants a friend as cognitively capable as his own brilliant self... but he only has Int 9 or some such and can hardly follow the train of thought as the beastie speaks. Lol

Pippin
2019-02-19, 12:44 PM
Because the Dragon Magazine article granting Awakened Animals an ECL sets the ECL directly, you have a malleable LA - X where X is your RHD for Cat, Rat, Toad, Lizard, and Monkey
Oh... So we need Dragon Magazines to make it work...

I was starting to like it a lot and here you go :c

magic9mushroom
2019-02-24, 11:43 PM
Thrallherd's skill requirement is also going to keep you from early entry; I know of no way to get 8 ranks in a skill before level 5.
I was explaining why it would be good, not actually saying it was possible.

Also, there is a feat called Primary Contact from Cityscape, which gives a bonus rank to a skill even if it exceeds your maximum. It's one of the standard early-entry tricks, although there are serious limitations. First, it's basically setting two feats on fire since Primary Contact itself is garbage and its prereq Favored is only marginally useful. Second, Primary Contact can only be taken once, which means PrCs with two or more equal skill requirements as the limiting factor (e.g. Dweomerkeeper with Spellcraft 8/Know(arcana) 8) can't be cheesed this way.

MaxiDuRaritry
2019-02-25, 12:36 AM
I was explaining why it would be good, not actually saying it was possible.

Also, there is a feat called Primary Contact from Cityscape, which gives a bonus rank to a skill even if it exceeds your maximum. It's one of the standard early-entry tricks, although there are serious limitations. First, it's basically setting two feats on fire since Primary Contact itself is garbage and its prereq Favored is only marginally useful. Second, Primary Contact can only be taken once, which means PrCs with two or more equal skill requirements as the limiting factor (e.g. Dweomerkeeper with Spellcraft 8/Know(arcana) 8) can't be cheesed this way.Unless they're Perform skills and you also take Versatile Spellcaster. Then 1+Int Perform skills gain the benefits of Primary Contact.

There are a few 2nd and 3rd party feats that grant bonus ranks, but nothing else that's 1st party that I know of. Trained Basiran (Kalamar: Stealth and Style) grants a bonus rank in Perform (Dance), for instance.

Pippin
2019-03-01, 02:02 PM
So, all we've got so far is: bloodline levels, Overchannel (or Hyperconscious's Transcend Limits), and Practiced Manifester (with or without Awaken).

I suppose there's no way whatsoever to be under permanent Inspire Greatness, is it?

Segev
2019-03-01, 02:40 PM
So, all we've got so far is: bloodline levels, Overchannel (or Hyperconscious's Transcend Limits), and Practiced Manifester (with or without Awaken).

I suppose there's no way whatsoever to be under permanent Inspire Greatness, is it?

Inspire Greatness only adds hit dice; it won't increase ML without having Practiced Manifester (that is otherwise not saturated) in place, as well. That said, it is a valid option for temporary increases, at least.

And being "permanently" under its effects would be as easy and as hard as having a bard who never has to sleep who never stops using it. Bardic music lacks a duration limit other than how long the bard can keep performing, after all.

Lapak
2019-03-01, 03:21 PM
I generally don't like early-entry tricks at all, so I don't want to get too into the thread, but qualifying under Inspire Greatness strikes me as a similar problem to magic-item qualification but even worse. Magic items can get lost or stolen, sure, but bards can be killed, knocked out, held, whatever and suddenly you lose access to all your class powers? That would be ugly IN PARTICULAR for a Thrallherd, one would assume.

magic9mushroom
2019-03-01, 07:33 PM
I generally don't like early-entry tricks at all, so I don't want to get too into the thread, but qualifying under Inspire Greatness strikes me as a similar problem to magic-item qualification but even worse. Magic items can get lost or stolen, sure, but bards can be killed, knocked out, held, whatever and suddenly you lose access to all your class powers? That would be ugly IN PARTICULAR for a Thrallherd, one would assume.

In fairness, once you get a couple of levels in he can stop performing without issue (you can only enter 1 level early, and Thrallherd increases manifester level).

I know I'd require abilities to work when naked and disjoined for purposes of feat/PrC prereqs, though, just as they have to be to award skill points.

MaxiDuRaritry
2019-03-01, 09:59 PM
Bard/fiend of possession. A singing sword!

Pippin
2019-03-08, 10:23 AM
I just found out that it's possible to sing some special Inspire Greatness granting +4 bonus Hit Dice instead of +2.

Any bard with the Words of Creation feat can do that (see BED p32). So you just need your personal army of bards singing all day long to you (either shrink them to Tiny and keep them around you, or make them sing telepathically from a safe place) and you get a free +4 bonus to ML with Practiced Manifester. On the downside, if you take a PrC that doesn't provide full manifester progression, the bonus is impaired: a Telepath 19/Thrallherd 1 would have ML23 with this trick, whereas a Telepath 20 would have ML24.

Edit. A Verdant Lord 9 (MW p74) can grant up to +9 HDs to any tree he animates. Assume the form of a tree and let any Verdant Lord 9 (that you dominated previously) animate you, granting you +9 HDs for free. You then go back to your natural shape, and retain all of your HDs (per the RC). As long as the Verdant Lord is around you (180 feet), your (initially ECL20) Telepath 20 has 29 HDs. If his level progression includes 3 bloodline levels, and the Practiced Manifester feat, he has ML27. You can make it ML31 with Transcend Limits.

Pippin
2019-04-13, 04:49 AM
I apologise for the double post.

I've just come accross Psionic Death Knell (CPsi p82):

As death knell (PR 217), except as noted here.
(I think they meant PHB, not PR.) The +1 bonus to caster level is implicitly translated as a +1 bonus to manifester level without any mention in the description.

We know the bonus still happens because the Evil Mantle reads:

2 Death Knell, Psionic*: Kills dying creature; you gain 1d8 temporary hp, +2 to Str, and +1 level.
This might legitimate other translations, like a Spell-to-Power Erudite increasing his own ML through his Consumptive Field power.