Shapechange and Alternate Form (Su)

[Segev]

There is some argument over whether you retain form-related abilities when you stack Shapechanges. However, some creatures (notably certain dragons) have Alternate Form as a supernatural ability. So, in theory, you could Shapechange into a silver dragon and then use its alternate form and still have the dragon’s other supernatural abilities, right?

Most notably, cloudwalking. But also maybe the breath weapon.

Or into a gold for its water breathing while using the gold’s alternate form power to be yourself or another creature.

[ben-zayb]

Alternate Form
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks).

Emphasis added

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Fun fact: If you take Metamorphic Transfer or Assume Supernatural Ability (Phasm's Alternate Form) and use a transformative effect to turn into a phasm, you can use its Alternate Form ability to turn into ANY form of Large size or smaller, including extremely high-level epic forms. Which means if you use another daily charge of Metamorphic Transfer or take an Assume Supernatural Ability feat for another high level form, you can gain (Su) abilities from an epic creature. Are there any forms with (Su) spellcasting, by any chance?

Another fun fact: Metamorphosis is not capped by your HD, but instead by your ML, so you can gain access to phasm form much earlier than with polymorph (as the latter is capped by your HD). Just boost your ML a lot, and you can access epic forms as soon as you get access to metamorphosis. (Or alter self, if you're an elan StP erudite and/or have Reserves of Strength.)

[Rijan_Sai]

There is some argument over whether you retain form-related abilities when you stack Shapechanges. However, some creatures (notably certain dragons) have Alternate Form as a supernatural ability. So, in theory, you could Shapechange into a silver dragon and then use its alternate form and still have the dragon’s other supernatural abilities, right?

Most notably, cloudwalking. But also maybe the breath weapon.

Or into a gold for its water breathing while using the gold’s alternate form power to be yourself or another creature.
And ninja'd...
posting anyway because I already typed it out...


Pretty sure that would work, with the specific exception of the breath weapon*.

•The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.

*You would, however, have to be extremely persuasive to convince me that this clause would apply to a Dragonfire Adept, given that the breath weapon is class-based rather then "of its old form". I'm thinking specifically of the invocation Humanoid Shape, which after looking I realize is based on the Change Shape special ability, but that contains similar wording (•The creature retains all other special attacks and qualities of its original form, except for breath weapons and gaze attacks.) Again though, for a DFA the breath weapon is derived from class not form.

[Segev]

My bad on the breath weapons, sorry. But the (Ex) water breathing off the gold dragon, the (Su) cloudwalking of the silver...these should transfer. It's just kinda weird using the shapeshifting ability of a form you've shapeshifted into!

I agree on the DFA; you specifically retain class abilities as long as you have the requisite body parts.

I need to go look into handbooks on shapechange for some fun forms that would work for a wizard pretending to be a superhero whose power was shapeshifting. Artificially limiting himself, yes, but hey.

[Rijan_Sai]

My bad on the breath weapons, sorry. But the (Ex) water breathing off the gold dragon, the (Su) cloudwalking of the silver...these should transfer. It's just kinda weird using the shapeshifting ability of a form you've shapeshifted into!
It’s a little weird, but given the wording it’s hard to think it was not intended... you are a (near) Epic wizard, with (almost) god-like powers, so a little shenanigans is to be expected.


I agree on the DFA; you specifically retain class abilities as long as you have the requisite body parts.
Yay!

[Hish]

Fun fact: If you take Metamorphic Transfer or Assume Supernatural Ability (Phasm) and use a transformative effect to turn into a phasm, you can use its Alternate Form ability to turn into ANY form of Large size or smaller, including extremely high-level epic forms. Which means if you use another daily charge of Metamorphic Transfer or take an Assume Supernatural Ability feat for another high level form, you can gain (Su) abilities from an epic creature. Are there any forms with (Su) spellcasting, by any chance?

The phasm's ability is "as a polymorph spell, cast on itself (caster level 15)." Wouldn't this limit the phasm to 15 HD forms? Or am I forgetting something?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The phasm's ability is "as a polymorph spell, cast on itself (caster level 15)." Wouldn't this limit the phasm to 15 HD forms? Or am I forgetting something?It says nothing about polymorph.

The phasm's alternate form ability says:


Alternate Form (Su)
A phasm can assume any form of Large size or smaller as a standard action. A phasm can remain in its alternate form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.

And the alternate form special quality in the glossary doesn't mention polymorph at all, nor does it limit the user of the ability to lower HD forms.

[Hish]

It says nothing about polymorph.

The phasm's alternate form ability says:


The monster manual includes a reference to polymorph, but it was errata'd out. I didn't check the errata.

So that means WotC errata'd the phasm to make it completely broken

[ben-zayb]

The monster manual includes a reference to polymorph, but it was errata'd out. I didn't check the errata.

So that means WotC errata'd the phasm to make it completely broken
Yeah, it's Alternate Form is quite a powerful thing without the HD limit.