Loki's bet timeline

[Ildirin]

I had a curious thought today. Do we have any indication when the bet between Hel and Thor was made in this world, especially to when the Dark One ascended? Also did Loki have any hand in warning the dwarves or was that all Thor? I ask because it raises interesting possible motivations for me.

[Gift Jeraff]

According to Hel, the bet was made when they were making the current world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html), so the Dark One wouldn't have been born yet. In that same strip she also says it was Thor who warned the dwarves.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I had a curious thought today. Do we have any indication when the bet between Hel and Thor was made in this world, especially to when the Dark One ascended? Also did Loki have any hand in warning the dwarves or was that all Thor? I ask because it raises interesting possible motivations for me.

It is impossible to tell for sure, but I would imagine that the mechanics of implementing the bet would require it to have been done prior to creating the world. Given that previous worlds might not even had had dwarves - think the animated food world that preceded this one [it might not have been the immediate prior one] - it is doubtful that it has been in place for many different worlds.

At any rate, it was definitely before the rise of the Dark One, which definitely happened during this world's lifetime.

As to who warned the dwarves, that sounds like something Thor would do rather than Loki, but I have no basis on which to speculate one way or the other.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

It is impossible to tell for sure, but I would imagine that the mechanics of implementing the bet would require it to have been done prior to creating the world.

That seems consistent with Hel's account of events.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html



As to who warned the dwarves, that sounds like something Thor would do rather than Loki, but I have no basis on which to speculate one way or the other.

Hel, at least, blames Thor.

[Fyraltari]

The timeline kind of gives additionnal justification for Thor getting drunk near Loki. The two may have gotten together to mourn their dead worshippers (or least THor may have thought so

[Ildirin]

Thanks all for the information, I wanted to be sure I wasn't misremembering or if there was any information in trhe books I didn't have.

So the reason I bring this up is that Hel's current plot really could have been foreseen as a fairly likely eventuality by Loki. They've seen countless worlds fall and I don't think there was any indication that this one would be any different at it's creation. So the thought comes to me, why did Loki do it?

I realize that the simplest and likeliest explanation is that Loki just failed to consider the long-term impact the bet would have. This isn't meant to be a complaint, the God's may be powerful, but they clearly make mistakes and I'm just fine with that being the explanation.

Curiosity leads me to think though, what if it is part of a longer plan, what would make sense in that context?

Did Loki plan to elevate Hel, but is now showing regret due to her vengeful attitude? Did he have some reason to think that this world was going to be short-lived and only give a small boost to Hel? Or did he have some reason to think that this world was going to be eternal?

Sorry for the rambling, just random musings

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So the reason I bring this up is that Hel's current plot really could have been foreseen as a fairly likely eventuality by Loki.

This is not something I'd assume. Unintended Consequences of one's actions are plentiful and common.


So the thought comes to me, why did Loki do it?

I suspect to give her a lesson on why it's important to have a strong church even if you are Evil and get plenty of worship from people not dying, as well as balance all belief sources - i.e. the godly equivalent of getting your daughter to eat something other than sweets.

Grey Wolf

[Aveline]

I figure Loki wanted Thor and Hel both to become weak from malnutrition. Surely a huge proportion of dwarves do end up with Hel, leaving Thor with less souls. I know Thor's attendants don't consist solely of dwarves, but they are one of the major races of the North - probably why Loki picked them for the bet.

Edit: It's also possible that Hel overestimates the value of her soul windfall and the proper winnings of the bet. I suspect we'll never find out.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I figure Loki wanted Thor and Hel both to become weak from malnutrition. Surely a huge proportion of dwarves do end up with Hel, leaving Thor with less souls. I know Thor's attendants don't consist solely of dwarves, but they are one of the major races of the North - probably why Loki picked them for the bet.

I suspect that the issue that weakens Thor is that he now has to spend so much time babysitting dwarves and getting them out of the clutches of Hel that he is too distracted to watch as Loki gains power elsewhere - say, becoming the dominant deity for certain human cities. Loki forcded Thor to have to become a major dwarven god, which leaves Loki free to become a major human god, if you will.


Edit: It's also possible that Hel overestimates the value of her soul windfall and the proper winnings of the bet. I suspect we'll never find out.

Given both IC god's reactions to it and OOC Rich's comment on the matter, I'd be very surprised if Hel is wrong in the matter. Not that we're likely to ever know.

Grey Wolf

[Ildirin]

This is not something I'd assume. Unintended Consequences of one's actions are plentiful and common.

Grey Wolf
That's a good point. Thinking about it again, I realize that Loki couldn't have known that there would eventually be enough dwarves to give Hel a large power boost upon the world's destruction, though it does make me wonder what the world demographics were like after it's creation.

I wonder if/how long he tried to hide the particulars of the bet from Thor so Thor couldn't tell anyone. If the point was a lesson to Hel, I would assume he wanted her to be hungry and not starving.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I wonder if/how long he tried to hide the particulars of the bet from Thor so Thor couldn't tell anyone. If the point was a lesson to Hel, I would assume he wanted her to be hungry and not starving.

I don't think he kept it from Thor at all. It's my headcanon that Thor is Chaotic Good, and Loki was purposely screwing with him by putting him in a position to have to turn dwarves into the most Lawful species that ever specied. You can tell how much rules irk Thor, and yet, here he is, forced to swallow his hatred of the rules and carefully teach dwarves to stick to them, because they end up in Hel if not.

Yes, that means that I do think the purpose of Loki's bet was to screw Thor while at the same time teaching Hel a lesson. But no, I don't think he considered what that'd mean next time they had to blow up the world to collect all souls.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Edit: It's also possible that Hel overestimates the value of her soul windfall and the proper winnings of the bet. I suspect we'll never find out.Given both IC god's reactions to it and OOC Rich's comment on the matter, I'd be very surprised if Hel is wrong in the matter. Not that we're likely to ever know.Yeah, the Giant was pretty direct here:

It works because I say it works, and the rest of the story will be written as if it works. I, the author of the comic, am telling you that the math works out in Hel's favor no matter how you try to calculate it.

[Fyraltari]

Loki might have planned to delay the Gods when the rift inevitably appeared so that the Snarl would gobble the dwarves and dent Hel that boost. Then the Dark One showed up and Loki forgot about that.

It’s also possible that Loki never intended for Hel to starve and was just as surprised by Thor telling the Dwarves as she was.

[RatElemental]

I don't think he kept it from Thor at all. It's my headcanon that Thor is Chaotic Good, and Loki was purposely screwing with him by putting him in a position to have to turn dwarves into the most Lawful species that ever specied. You can tell how much rules irk Thor, and yet, here he is, forced to swallow his hatred of the rules and carefully teach dwarves to stick to them, because they end up in Hel if not.

Yes, that means that I do think the purpose of Loki's bet was to screw Thor while at the same time teaching Hel a lesson. But no, I don't think he considered what that'd mean next time they had to blow up the world to collect all souls.

Grey Wolf

If we're talking headcanons, mine is that Loki is intentionally trying to let the snarl devour the world (and thus all the souls Hel would get) and the whole dark one thing is an opportunity he saw that came up and would prefer if it panned out but is hedging his bets if it doesn't. Voting not to destroy the world yet just so happens to be how one accomplishes either one of those goals.

[KorvinStarmast]

If we're talking headcanons, mine is that Loki is intentionally trying to let the snarl devour the world (and thus all the souls Hel would get) and the whole dark one thing is an opportunity he saw that came up and would prefer if it panned out but is hedging his bets if it doesn't. Voting not to destroy the world yet just so happens to be how one accomplishes either one of those goals. Loki knows that worlds come and go, so the first half of you idea fits into what we now know after Thor's exposition to Durkon.
Loki, being a trickster god, has for millions of worlds, and thus millions(+) of years, been pulling shennanigans because he is the embodiment of The Trickster. (I am drawing a little bit on Joseph Campbell's works here). It's almost as though he can't not pull shennanigans. If he is playing tricks on other gods as a habit, he'll tend to play the long game: he'll think two or three moves ahead.
If he somehow fits the fourth quidity into the larger picture of gods in OoTS verse, being the one who managed to make it all work gets him an ally in The Dark One, and may even gain him status among his peers. Loki would dig higher status: Vote Loki 2016. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html)

I think your idea fits very well with what we know now.