I think Shadow Blade is little bit too strong. Especially on Sorcadins.

[Benny89]

I am thinking about making a houserule for Shadow Blade. Before anyone will jump on me and say "it's only a minute, requires concentration and cost slot"- I know that.

However it doesn't change the fact that it deals ridiculous damage in hands of Gish builds, especially Sorcadins, EK/Casters, Blade Dancers etc.

One of the players I play with is Sorcadin. In a fight where he doesn't really need to go for Smite mode he can just casts a Shadow Blade and go to fight. Not only it gives advantage in dim light or darkness, but it deals from level 3rd slot a 3d8 damage. With Extra attack and Twinned Booming Blade [EDIT: FOR TWO SEPERATE TARGETS! Normally if he attacks one target he can't Twin BB so he goes normal 2 attacks, just wanted to clear it). it deals a great amount of damage. But at the cost of one spell slot- he can only stick to that in whole fight, because of how much DPR boost over course of entire encounter it is.

The problem i have is that there is really no weapon, even among Legendaries, that can match Shadow Blade. Sure you won't get +1/2/3 to Shadow Blade but system was designed for not needing to have magic weapons in first place so I think anyone would change a 1d8 +2 sword for 5k8 sword. You won't use SS in every fight of course- but where you need to use it (usually you know if find will be hard or not) it just stupid how much damage it does.

Now, that spell casted from level 7th slot is 5d8 for 10 turns. Ok, it costs 7th level slot. However- notmally that slot would be reserved for Smite in case of Sorcadin or for spell.

But with 5d8 damage, each of your attacks has basicelly attached a free 4k8 Smite to it or IDS + 2nd Level Smite. And you can still attach smites to it. A 3 attacks (Quicken + 2 extra attacks) with attached Smites can result in 3 x (5k8 + 7 + 5k8) + 3k8 damage. With 3 attacks he dealt extra 15k8 damage attached to his Longsword as opposed when that slot would be used for Smite. Even when critting it's 20k8 burst in ONE attack. I mean, you can also apply Smites to it and Quicken Cantrips. Its bonkers.

EK/Caster with extra attacks is also super strong with, basicelly getting 1-handed GWM weapon with superior crits.

I am not saying it's not good that gishes got some good magic weapon options. I think it's cool. And spell is cool.

But I think this SS should be limited to max 3k8 damage. To compensate that I would make it last 10 min instead of one 1 min. It's also pure Physic and Magical damage + advantage, which makes it even stronger.

I just think some builds really didn't need yet another super burst. Especially since it's only 2nd level spell.

Sorcadin already had Quicken Hold Person -> 2 Attacks Smites combo for Non-Legendary Resistance targets. However now vs Legendary Resistance Targets they can go all out with 5k8 magical weapon with physic damage with Smites on top of them and possible auto-advantage for free. I think it's just too good a little bit.

[HoodedHero007]

Alternatively, modify encounters to increase the chance of the caster's concentration being broken, if it's such a problem. Personally, I'd say you shouldn't do so, as synergy shouldn't really be punished. Additionally, there's how it relates to other spells of similar level to take into account.

[thoroughlyS]

What about adjusting the scaling to match flame blade? 3d8 for a 4th-level slot, 4d8 for 6th, and 5d8 for 8th. That small change makes the spell much less cost effective.

[Tanarii]

Your problem isn't shadow blade. Its Booming Blade. If you allow SCAG cantrips in your game the resulting broken is on you.

It doesnt help youre allowing him to stack Extra Attack with twinning Booming Blade, which is decidedly not RAW.

[Skylivedk]

Your problem isn't shadow blade. Its Booming Blade. If you allow SCAG cantrips in your game the resulting broken is on you.

It doesnt help youre allowing him to stack Extra Attack with twinning Booming Blade, which is decidedly not RAW.

- well it's on the designers of SCAG, no?

[Spiritchaser]

If you’re playing PHB +1 (I know, who would do such a thing!) then you won’t have the problem of quickened booming blade + shadow blade followed by 2 shadow blade attacks.

If you are allowing this then it’s that synergy, and not shadow blade itself that’s largely causing this. Shadow blade on its own is formidable but not absurd.

As for that sorcadin? For pure madness bite the bullet go ful Dex sorcadin starting either DS or dragon sorc at 1, then skip warcaster at first (you’ll still want it later) in favour of Elven accuracy for your first ASI (Dex sorcadins almost have to be half elves so all good there) Take oath of vengence and either control flames or thaumaturgy (if you went DS sorc) or both.

With this, and vow of enmity you’ll be rolling 3 dice most of the time, and almost any time you really need to.

Quickened green flame blade (with extra fire damage if you went dragon) and 9 rolls a round for crits? Sounds great, and it is playable, up from level 1

But

Even with that contrived build, your patience in the early levels when others get toys first, and the stat compromise...

Even with all of that you’re still not actually outperforming the really crazy high DPR builds

[samcifer]

Well, I looked it over and had considered using it, but tbh, I get much more damage out of a glaive with GWM + PM with Sacred weapon from my oath of devotion feature. If all three attacks hit, I'm doing an average of 57 dmg per turn and that's before adding in smite dmg. or extra dmg granted by a magical weapon.

[Corran]

It's fine IMO. Requiring concentration is what keeps it in check.

[Tanarii]

- well it's on the designers of SCAG, no?
Only if you're running AL. Otherwise its on the DM.

[Xetheral]

Only if you're running AL. Otherwise its on the DM.

Are you saying that balance issues outside of the core books are the DM's fault?

[Tanarii]

Are you saying that balance issues outside of the core books are the DM's fault?
The DM is the one that chooses to allow splat, which is notoriously unbalanced, in their game.

So yes, its the DMs fault.

Edit: note this applies to Shadow Blade as well. If you think it is unbalanced, dont allow it. Or houserule it.

Heck, that even applies to core books. The oberoni fallacacy is a fallacy.

[Zanthy1]

Your problem isn't shadow blade. Its Booming Blade. If you allow SCAG cantrips in your game the resulting broken is on you.

It doesnt help youre allowing him to stack Extra Attack with twinning Booming Blade, which is decidedly not RAW.

Agree that SCAG cantrips are silly. And reinforcing your statement about extra attack with twinning Booming Blade not working as well, in case there was any doubt.

[Benny89]

Well, I looked it over and had considered using it, but tbh, I get much more damage out of a glaive with GWM + PM with Sacred weapon from my oath of devotion feature. If all three attacks hit, I'm doing an average of 57 dmg per turn and that's before adding in smite dmg. or extra dmg granted by a magical weapon.

Um, no you don't do much more damage. In fact if you don't smite you do on average much less damage than 7th slot Shadow Blade with Dueling and not smites, just quicken BB as third attack:

2 x(5k8 + 7) + (5k8 + 7 + 3k8) = 45 + 14 + 22,5 + 7 + 13,5 = 102 damage average per turn. Even if he misses one- he will still outdo your 57 damage but long shot.

That is 102 damage with just Shadow Blade without Smites.

Do you want me to attach 5k8 smite to each of those attacks?


Your problem isn't shadow blade. Its Booming Blade. If you allow SCAG cantrips in your game the resulting broken is on you.

It doesnt help youre allowing him to stack Extra Attack with twinning Booming Blade, which is decidedly not RAW.

You can Twinned BB per RAW as you as you hit sperate targets with each one. I don't allow to hit the same but by RAW you can hit two targets. And if two targets get hit by 5d8 + 7 + 3d8 = this is really good multi target attack. Even without Smites.

It doesn't give extra attack (he has two from paladin 5) but allow you to apply BB to two separate targets.


As for SCAGs:

I allow all official content as I don't think SCAGs are the problem. I think Shadow Blade is just too good. Extra 3d8 from BB on normal Longsword or even Flaming Tongue is strong but not broken.

Extra 3d8 on top of 5d8 is on the other hand- broken. But that's not SCAG fault imo, but Shadow Blade.

[Xihirli]

By the time you get 7th level spell slots, and begin expending your most limited resources? Yeah that sounds about right.

[samcifer]

Um, no you don't do much more damage. In fact if you don't smite you do on average much less damage than 7th slot Shadow Blade with Dueling and not smites, just quicken BB as third attack:

2 x(5k8 + 7) + (5k8 + 7 + 3k8) = 45 + 14 + 22,5 + 7 + 13,5 = 102 damage average per turn. Even if he misses one- he will still outdo your 57 damage but long shot.

That is 102 damage with just Shadow Blade without Smites.

Do you want me to attach 5k8 smite to each of those attacks?

Sure, go nuts.

[Benny89]

Sure, go nuts.

That was rhetorical question, sorry. My point is: Shadow Blade even from 5th level slot (4d8) is out damaging even GWM while not suffering -5 to hit, being magical, being physic, giving advantage etc. All for level 2 spell.

[Benny89]

By the time you get 7th level spell slots, and begin expending your most limited resources? Yeah that sounds about right.

7th level slot is extreme, you can cast it from 5th level slot which is 4d8 damage and it will still out damage everything else, including Legendary weapons, GWM etc.

[samcifer]

That was rhetorical question, sorry. My point is: Shadow Blade even from 5th level slot (4d8) is out damaging even GWM while not suffering -5 to hit, being magical, being physic, giving advantage etc. All for level 2 spell.

But with Shadow Blade attacks, if I attacked using Strength and I have 20 Strength, would I still add the +5 damage from my STR modifier to that attack? I've never been clear on that.

[Misterwhisper]

But with Shadow Blade attacks, if I attacked using Strength and I have 20 Strength, would I still add the +5 damage from my STR modifier to that attack? I've never been clear on that.

Yes. It is still a normal damage roll.

[Garfunion]

My understanding is that when you twin Booming Blade you do NOT twin the melee attack. The melee attack is part of casting the spell not the effects of the spell.

[Rukelnikov]

Using your same build, going with GWM + Haste returns more damage:

5d8(SB) + 5(Str) + 3d8(BB) + 5d8(Smite) = 13d8+5
Twinned BB + Quicken BB = 26d8+10 (Target A) + 13d8+5 (Target B)

Total = 127(Target A) + 63.5(Target B) = 190.5

2d6(Gsword) + 5(Str) + 3d8(BB) + 5d8(Smite) = 8d8 + 2d6 + 5
2d6(Gsword) + 5(Str) + 5d8(Smite) = 5d8 + 2d6 + 5 (Haste attack)

Twinned BB + Quicken BB + Haste Attack = 21d8+6d6+15(Target A) + 8d8+2d6+5(Target B)

Total = 130.5(Target A) + 48(Target B) = 178.5

So you spend a 7th lvl slot instead of a 3rd lvl one(that can be twinned to haste another party memeber) to do 12 more damage. If you consider the Gsword can be magical, and that GWM puts your damage 28 above, Haste is still better.

[Willie the Duck]

That was rhetorical question, sorry. My point is: Shadow Blade even from 5th level slot (4d8) is out damaging even GWM while not suffering -5 to hit, being magical, being physic, giving advantage etc. All for level 2 spell.

It's not a level two spell, it is a level 2 spell cast with a 5th level slot. Add to that all the other things you have described (which all add up to the most min-max focused player people would ever allow in their group along with the most laissez faire DM anyone has ever experienced.

Look, you are not wrong, overall. Multiclass characters having extreme utility in the 4-14 levels where most people play most of the time in general, and sorcadins specifically are an annoying confluence of the 5e rules. Likewise, a number of different avenues towards making a successful 'gish' exist (Shadow Blade, SCAG Cantrips, and relatively easy and well-rewarded MC between full caster classes and classes with multiple attacks), many of which only explicitly do not synergize if you enforce Core+1 (and some of them even if you do).

However, the example you've laid out is so over the top that it ends up sounding roughly equivalent to "My DM has handed us the game on the silver platter, but for some reason I am blaming the game and the fact that the rules don't specifically disallow him or her from doing so." If you had done a simpler analysis of (ex.) a wizard/EK with merely Shadow Blade and multiattack, pointing out that (ex.) a EK6/Wiz7 has access to 5th level slots, and thus 2x4d8 blades, or a EK12/Wiz1 with 3x3d8 blades, the argument would have actually been more clean.

[Felyndiira]

The progression of Shadow Blade over a rapier is:



Spell Slot
Damage over Rapier


Level 2
+1d8 (+4.5)


Level 3
+2d8 (+9)


Level 5
+3d8 (+13.5)


Level 7
+4d8 (+18)



A sorcadin without Extra Attack (a 2/18 build) can get this added to attack twice - normal and quickened SCAG cantrip. A sorcadin with Extra Attack (a 6/14 build) can attack three times - Extra Attack and quickened SCAG cantrip - but needs to wait until level 9* to get this spell. He also only gets level 5 slots at 12; level 7 slots at level 16, when a 2/18 build can access much more powerful level 5 spells like Animate Object earlier.

Level 16 is past the level of Simulacrum. A level 7 spell that adds some damage for a minute can't compare to other spell options at this point; and it would be a waste for a paladin to smite away a 7th level spell when smite is damage capped at 4th (+5d8).

Let's look at a few similar spells at comparable upcast levels and magic items that are concentration and thus mutually exclusive with this spell:

Spirit Guardians: Available on Divine Soul sorcerers. Deals 3d8 (+13.5) damage on a third level slot. Does not scale with extra attack, but scales with extra enemies and imposes difficult terrain. This is very comparable to +2d8 (+9) damage per attack.
Conjure Animals: Variable if GM selects creatures summoned, but adds anywhere from 20-50 damage with the 1/4 CR creatures option.
Holy Weapon: Available on Divine Soul sorcerers. Deals +2d8 (+9) damage on a fifth level slot. This is lower than Shadow Blade's +3d8 (+13.5) from the same slot, but stacks with magic weapons and lasts an hour instead of 1 minute.
Animate Objects: Does 10x 6.5 damage, or +65 damage, for a level 5 slot. Requires an action, but more than out-damages Shadow Blade at this slot. Accuracy is a bit low, but sheer quantity makes up for it.
Flametongue: Simply adds 2d6 (+7) fire damage on a rare magic item.

Compared to a lot of these, Shadow Blade is merely a good spell, not overpowered by any means. The damage would get ridiculous if you allow things like Extra Attack Twinned Booming Blade (which isn't actually legal - Twinned Booming Blade is okay, but doesn't stack with extra attack), but even in the hands of Eldritch Knights (who get 4-5 attacks) it's merely just good.

[Gtdead]

Ill do this quick, although combat tends to be more complicated than this.

Some calculations of Lvl 11 characters vs 17 AC (calculating crit chance too for attacks, but not for smites)
I'm assuming both classes as vanilla as possible in terms of feats, class feats, spells etc, 20 attacking stat and prof bonus (+4)

I won't calculate BB's rider. These classes don't have a reliable way to force the enemy in a position to use it.


Paladin 11, Glaive, PAM: 2x 1d10+5, 1x 1d4+5, 3x 1d8 (IDM) = 43.35,
Against 17 AC: 28.2
With Advantage: 39.2

Paladin 11, Glaive, PAM + GWM: 2x 1d10+15, 1x1d4+15, 3x 1d8 (IDM) = 73.35
Against 17 AC: 29.3
With Advantage: 47.8

Paladin 5/Sorc 6, casts 3d8 SB, 2x 3d8+5 = 38.35
Against 17 AC: 24.9
With Advantage: 34.8

Paladin 5/Sorc 6, SB + quickened BB, 3x 3d8+5, 2d8 = 66.98
Against 17 AC: 43.5
With Advantage: 60.8

Assuming 7 encounters, 5 rounds, no special circumstances.

Using highest levels for SB, subtracting sorcery points used for quicken and using the rest spellslots for smite.

Paladin 11: 29.3 * 5 * 7, 1026.9
Total Smites (CL6): 4 * 2d8, 3 * 3d8, 3 * 4d8 = 29d8, 130.5
Sum:1157.4

Paladin 5/Sorc 6 (CL 9):

Spells for SB: All slots lvl 3 and higher.
Sorcery points available: 6 (sorc lvl) + 2* 4 (lvl 1 spells) + 3* 3(lvl 2 spells) = 23 / 2 = 11 quickens

Main Damage: 6* 5* 24.9 + 5* 31.1 = 747 + 155.5
Quickens : 11 * 18.6 = 204.6
Total Smites: 0
Sum: 1107.1

So as far as single target dmg is concerned, Paladin 11 is better (and he will get even more attacks due to PAM reaction and he can smite on crits, while concentrating on bless) but Paladin 5/Sorc 6 is close and can wear a shield.

Of course, there may be a more efficient way to use resources and calculations for different levels will yield different results.

My conclusion is while I think SB is good, I'd rather keep that amazing AC of Paladin 2/Sorc X, and be a spell caster with some melee capability.

[Skylivedk]

The DM is the one that chooses to allow splat, which is notoriously unbalanced, in their game.

So yes, its the DMs fault.

Edit: note this applies to Shadow Blade as well. If you think it is unbalanced, dont allow it. Or houserule it.

Heck, that even applies to core books. The oberoni fallacacy is a fallacy.

Does it say that on the book? Both DMs I have as a player would never know this until they see it explode. I honestly don't understand why you defend the designers in this case. They're the ones you pay to deliver a product that ought to work with your previous product; it being a supplement and all.

From my POV, DMs should not have to run simulations on spell combinations to see what works and what doesn't. That should have happened before the spells went into print. If SCAGtrips are the issue, they could have written Shadowblade to not work with SCAGtrips.

That said, I'm not sure about the other two premises either; namely SCAGtrips being OP (but I can definitely see an argument for it) not Shadowblade

[CantigThimble]

So, they can spend a 3rd level spell slot to deal an extra 2d8 damage (over a mundane longsword, assuming that's their next best option) for one minute. If they hit every round with 2 attacks then that adds avg 18 damage per round that the combat lasts, max 180. That assumes that they hit every round and never break concentration.

How about we compare that to fireball: avg 28 damage per target you can catch in it. So if there are 4 enemies then you get 112 damage and it takes shadow blade (112/18) = ~6 rounds to catch up.

Now, there are all kinds of other factors you could worry about such as:
-Single target damage is better than AOE damage (favors SB)
-Burst damage is better than damage over time (favors FB)
-Requiring concentration vs not (favors FB)
-Psychic vs Fire damage (IDK, lots of things resist fire, lots of things are immune to psychic)
-Attack rolls vs Saves (Depends on the target)
-Coming online at level 5 vs level 8 (favors FB)
-AOE scales based on number of enemies (Depends on target(s))
-Magic weapons make SB less advantageous to use

Based on this, it doesn't seem to me that SB is obviously broken. However, it does sound like this character has basically stacked a crapton of abilities which all allow him to deal more damage when he swings his sword and this has made him stronger than the other party members. (Who are playing what exactly? What's his competition here?)

[Nhorianscum]

7th level slot is extreme, you can cast it from 5th level slot which is 4d8 damage and it will still out damage everything else, including Legendary weapons, GWM etc.

2d6+10+5 = 22

4d8+5 = 23

So at +1 GWM hits for more raw damage, +3 we blow friggin 5th level Sblade away. Worth noting that just poking things with a tier 3 booming blade + Animate Objects or 2nd attack + Animate does the same damage with a real weapon.

+3 is exobitant but fireswords, coldswords, and lightsabers do way more than our basic +whatever weapons so it seems like a decent comparison.

[Shuruke]

Only nerf it if its doing the following

-making the game less fun for other players

- being complained about by other players

-taking away from the story of the campaign


From the sound of it this player
Would need 5 pally for extra attack and at the very least 3 sorc

At level 8 it has taken all of his levels to have multi attack and shadow blade

Doing smite and twinned booming blade he can have it as early as 2 pally 3 sorc. However this is taking a lot of his resources
A. Both his metamagic options are being used for very specefic metamagic quicken and twin

B. He is using a slot for shadow blade and burning between 1-2 sorc points a turn

C. At this point he is only a 4th level caster putting him behind the 5th level caster spike. Also doesnt have access to the extra attack feature.

D. In the end going 5 pally 15 sorc would miss out on 9th level spells at very high levels.


If the player wants to tunnel around this one thing and they are having fun with it just go with it. Especially if everyone at the table is having fun.

In the end he is giving up other things to have this

He has limited skills

His character who is mainly melee has given up hp per level average of 2 for each level of sorc compared to a d10 class.

His character has 3 stats to focus on or alternatively needs to take warcaster/ put first level in sorc to have either advantage or proficiency in con saves for concentration.

His character is also going to have only 4 asi doing 5 pally 15 sorc. Which if one is used on warcaster leaves 3.
Using standard array even with a dex race would only start with 17 dex and would need an asi to get that to 18 and the other to either go 20 or to increase its casting stat or constitution.


In the end
5 pally
15 sorc
Would have 90hp+(20xcon)
Con is probably only +2.
For 130 hp at level 20.


Sure it has pros of dealing damage and being really bursty. Access to spells and could potentially wear light armor etc


Cons
Squushier and less survivable than other melee options

Gives up early power of getting 3rd level slots in order to smite with shadow blade

Is focused primarily on combat, sure they can take persuasion etc since they have decent cha but they will be prioritizing dex so they wont be as good a face as a pure sorc let alone bard or rogue.

Extremely resource hungry and in a normal adventuring day would have to wisely choose between do I wanna save twin and quicken etc for when I use shadow blade or use it with rapier etc.

Can feel like a one trick pony. Throughout the campaign everyone is getting new toys and bigger spells and this guy is primarily hyper focusing on same trick he got at level 5.



**If the players are having fun don't worry about it. Male sure theirs enemies for everyone to be able to participate in battle**

[RSP]

I think the DM in question needs to also consider what the adventuring day looks like.

Further, the OP needs to compare the MC character to similar characters of the same character level.

A Sorcadin with 7th level slots (13th level caster) and Extra Attack (5th level Paladin) is at least character level 16 (5 Paladin/11 Sorcrer or 6/10). That character has 7th level slots but only 5th or 6th level spells. And though that character can cast SB with EA at 8th level, you’re not really doing the damage you propose until much later in the gam.

So for that 1x/day super SB, you’re giving up 8th level spells on a full caster. That SB let’s you do a lot of damage, but you’re giving up a lot of power just to do great damage for 1 minute/day.

If you’re adventuring day consists of one big boss fight, yeah, certain builds will seem over powered and allow this specific build to throw an entire day’s worth of resources into one fight.

But the real problem here, in my opinion, isn’t SB, BB, Smites or Metamagic, it’s having characters that only have to deal with 1 encounter/day: the DM needs to use multiple encounters to wear out those spell slot resources.

Compare that straight damage dealing to one encounter where the 16th level Wizard gets to cast an 8th, 7th, and 6th level spell in the first 3 rounds.

Note: Legendary Resistance may also be a factor in whether the straight damage dealing Sorcadin is “overpowered” compared to the full caster. In this case, it may be worthwhile to allow a LR to be used to nullify an attack, same as it can nullify a failed save.

Note: in addition to Concentration saves, Anti-Magic Zones and Dispel Magic can nullify a SB.

[Misterwhisper]

The issue is your dm must be using a one battle per adventuring day or this would never be an issue.

To do this massive nova tale one round to even set up, being 18th level or so, breaking the rules on extra attack, and spending all the characters 5th level slots probably their only 7th level slot.

On top of it it is only going to work once per day.

Get a better dm.

[Willie the Duck]

A Sorcadin with 7th level slots (13th level caster) and Extra Attack (5th level Paladin) is at least character level 16 (5 Paladin/11 Sorcrer or 6/10). That character has 7th level slots but only 5th or 6th level spells. And though that character can cast SB with EA at 8th level, you’re not really doing the damage you propose until much later in the gam[e].
...
Compare that straight damage dealing to one encounter where the 16th level Wizard gets to cast an 8th, 7th, and 6th level spell in the first 3 rounds.

16th level really is when the sorcadins and sorlocks and MC builds in general really start faltering.

[ad_hoc]

I'm going to go ahead and guess that the real problem is having 1 encounter/long rest.

[Boci]

The DM is the one that chooses to allow splat, which is notoriously unbalanced, in their game.

So yes, its the DMs fault.

Edit: note this applies to Shadow Blade as well. If you think it is unbalanced, dont allow it. Or houserule it.

Heck, that even applies to core books. The oberoni fallacacy is a fallacy.

No, its a valid fallacy. Like here for example. Your argument is "WotC is blameless for printing and selling OP splat material". At best best the blame is shared between them and the DM for allowing it, but that assumes all DMs are capable of judging balance better than official, paid designer apparently, which is an unfair assumption. New DMs should be able to reasonable expect splat cantrip to not be OP.

[Captain Panda]

I think you're totally wrong. Compare it to similar spells at 5th that also require concentration...

Animate Objects: 65ish damage.

Conjure Animals (upcast): An obscene amount. 16 giant poisonous snakes do 1d4+4 piercing and 3d6 (potentially) of poison damage. So 48d6 poison and 16d4+64 piercing. Granted, they won't all hit (also true of shadow blade) and lots of stuff will make many of the poison saves or be outright immune, but shadow blade is not overpowered in comparison to even half of this damage.

Spirit Guardians (upcast): 5d8 of friendly damage against.. well, lots of stuff. Also you can still use your action and bonus action once it's up.

Shadow Blade is on the low end of okay, it's not broken. You must have a group of players who just politely nerf themselves and never take the good stuff if you think that Shadow Blade is broken. :wink:

[Benny89]

2d6+10+5 = 22

4d8+5 = 23

So at +1 GWM hits for more raw damage, +3 we blow friggin 5th level Sblade away. Worth noting that just poking things with a tier 3 booming blade + Animate Objects or 2nd attack + Animate does the same damage with a real weapon.

+3 is exobitant but fireswords, coldswords, and lightsabers do way more than our basic +whatever weapons so it seems like a decent comparison.

You don't count having +2 AC from Shield and Duelist so it's 4d8 + 7. Also no -5 to attack roll which on AC 19+ makes huge difference. It's important to be precise.


snip

Keep in mind that even with all extra attacks he has -5 to hit. Calculate that for AC 19+ and Shadow Blade comes on top. Also please note that one crit from PAM is:

2k10 + 15 + 12k8 = 54 damage.

While one crit with Shadow Blade is:

10k8 + 7 + 10k8= 97 damage. Almost double damage.

In short: PAM have more chance to crit, but less chance to hit the higher AC goes and it's crits is almost 2x weaker than Shadow Blade.

It's important to note that:

1. PAM Paladin required heavy investment into it's build: PAM + GWM is two ASI. Casting Haste takes his first full action so while our PAM Paladin can get more attacks starting from second turn, Sorcadin can with Shadow Blade start first turn wih already two attacks. It's all nitpicks as there are a lot of circumstances in combat but it's at least worth to note.

2. PAM Paladin will have (Assuming Vuman) on level 16: PAM, GWM, RES (CON), +2 STR, +2 STR. Sorcadin will have on level 16: +2 STR, +2 STR, War Caster, RES(CON). Also PAM Paladin will have lower hit chance on lower levels as -5 and not 20 in stat. He will also have harder time keeping haste than Sorcadin keeping Shadow Blade. Assuming Plate PAM Paladin have max of 20 AC (18 + Haste), while Socradin can maintain 20 AC with option of Shield spell for 25 AC. Up to the time where he gets 20 STR he will miss a TONs of attacks with GWM.

3. PAM Paladin won't have PAM, GWM and 20 STR up to maybe 12 (if he skips RES (SON) which will make using Haste no option) or 16 level. While Sorcadin will be able to use Shadow Blade in big fight where it matters from slot level 2 or 3 with 20 in Stat on levels 9 and 11 and having War Caster. Sorcadin also will have easier time to maintain Shadow Blade due to War Caster + Res (CON) and losing it means just to recast it next turn, while PAM Paladin will have still huge success chance on Haste but if he loses it- he is toasted. Like totally.

[Benny89]

I think you're totally wrong. Compare it to similar spells at 5th that also require concentration...

Animate Objects: 65ish damage.

Conjure Animals (upcast): An obscene amount. 16 giant poisonous snakes do 1d4+4 piercing and 3d6 (potentially) of poison damage. So 48d6 poison and 16d4+64 piercing. Granted, they won't all hit (also true of shadow blade) and lots of stuff will make many of the poison saves or be outright immune, but shadow blade is not overpowered in comparison to even half of this damage.

Spirit Guardians (upcast): 5d8 of friendly damage against.. well, lots of stuff. Also you can still use your action and bonus action once it's up.

Shadow Blade is on the low end of okay, it's not broken. You must have a group of players who just politely nerf themselves and never take the good stuff if you think that Shadow Blade is broken. :wink:

What you have mentioned is just a fuel for Sorcadin. Same Sorcadin that has Shadow Blade can do that. But you are missing a point:

Shadow Blade is being used for BBEG. You won't use it vs hordes if you can just use Spirit Guardians or Quicken Fireball etc. Also Animate objects takes action to cast. It's 65 damage in one turn.

Also your 16 poison giant snakes has poor + to hit so please calulate me how many will hit target of AC 18+. Please also compare number of monsters immune and resistant to poison vs enemies resistant and immune to Physic damage.

While Shadow Blade with 3 attacks with 5k8 Smites and Quicken BB will do: 165 damage in one turn.

One crit from Shadow Blade + Smite can do 97 damage.

My point is: Socradins are already Nova kings with Quicken Hold Person, Meta Magic + number of high level slots for Smites. Nobody ever said that Sorcadin lacks Nova dmg vs bosses.

However, now add to that Shadow Blade.



I know what Spirit Guardians can do to horde of mooks, same as other AOE spells. Sorcadin won't use Shadow Blade vs hordes or mooks, he has tons of other options for that. What I am talking about is absurd nova burst for Sorcadins which got buffed with Shadow Blade.

This is my grip. Even 3d8 Shadow Blade on Sorcadin is riddiculous Nova damage. And that is without having to waste 2 ASI for GWM and PAM or using 2-handed weapon.

[CantigThimble]

What you have mentioned is just a fuel for Sorcadin. Same Sorcadin that has Shadow Blade can do that. But you are missing a point:

Shadow Blade is being used for BBEG. You won't use it vs hordes if you can just use Spirit Guardians or Quicken Fireball etc. Also Animate objects takes action to cast. It's 65 damage in one turn.

Also your 16 poison giant snakes has poor +5 hit so please calulate me how many will hit target of AC 18+. Please also compare number of monsters immune and resistant to poison vs enemies resistant and immune to Physic damage.

While Shadow Blade with 3 attacks with 5k8 Smites and Quicken BB will do: 165 damage in one turn.

One crit from Shadow Blade + Smite can do 97 damage.

My point is: Socradins are already Nova kings with Quicken Hold Person, Meta Magic + number of high level slots for Smites. Nobody ever said that Sorcadin lacks Nova dmg vs bosses.

However, now add to that Shadow Blade.



I know what Spirit Guardians can do to horde of mooks, same as other spells. What I am talking about is absurd nova burst for Sorcadins which got buffed with Shadow Blade.

This is my grip. Even 3d8 Shadow Blade on Sorcadin is riddiculous Nova damage. And that is without having to waste 2 ASI for GWM and PAM or using 2-handed weapon.

This is the point I was making at the end. Shadow blade isn't a special broken thing. It is one thing in a long list of things that can be used to increase melee damage. Someone has 5-6 of those stacked on top of eachother leading to busted single target damage, but you're saying THIS ONE is broken, implying the rest are fine. Why?

[Benny89]

This is the point I was making at the end. Shadow blade isn't a special broken thing. It is one thing in a long list of things that can be used to increase melee damage. Someone has 5-6 of those stacked on top of eachother leading to busted single target damage, but you're saying THIS ONE is broken, implying the rest are fine. Why?

I understand what you are trying to say- melee cantrips, correct? However, no matter how strong they are- I think they had their niche (meta magic or single attacks). However Shadow Blade is much easier to exploit with a lot of other builds/classes. It's worth to mention that I don't think Shadow Blade should have been added in such form. It's cool idea, but way overtuned. Physic damage, advantage, super high damage die, adding stat, finesse, bonus action to cast, able to use Extra Attacks, adding smites to them. I would at least make it 1 action to cast and tuned that extra features a little. I am supprised it does not cast fireballs on hit too....

I never said that I think Sorcadins are not broken already. I just said that I don't know what was the point of adding yet another spell/thing that can be easy exploited with some min-max builds (not only Sorcadin).

I am fully for new stuff in future books, but honestly someone should properly test stuff like that first.

So instead of me trying to say "this one is broken", I am asking "why adding yet ANOTHER broken thing?".

For example- I have enough of Elven Accuracy sheningans, now I will have Elven Accuracy Shadow Blade sheningans.

[Rukelnikov]

1. PAM Paladin required heavy investment into it's build: PAM + GWM is two ASI. Casting Haste takes his first full action so while our PAM Paladin can get more attacks starting from second turn, Sorcadin can with Shadow Blade start first turn wih already two attacks. It's all nitpicks as there are a lot of circumstances in combat but it's at least worth to note.

Why are you comparing straight Paladin to Sorcadin? Compare two same level Sorcadins, same everything, one uses SB, the other uses a LS and haste.

Haste first round: Quickened Haste, move up to 60 ft., 2 attacks against single enemy, haste attack against same enemy.

SB first round: Shadow Blade, move up to 30 ft, cast BB (twinned if there are two adjacent enemies)

Haste pros: Better chance to get to the desired enemy on the first round, ~50% more damage to single enemy (3 * 6d8 + 7 = 3 * 34 = 102)

SB pros: More total damage if there are 2 adjacent enemies within 30 ft. (2 * 13d8 + 7 = 2 * 65.5)


2. PAM Paladin will have (Assuming Vuman) on level 16: PAM, GWM, RES (CON), +2 STR, +2 STR. Sorcadin will have on level 16: +2 STR, +2 STR, War Caster, RES(CON). Also PAM Paladin will have lower hit chance on lower levels as -5 and not 20 in stat. He will also have harder time keeping haste than Sorcadin keeping Shadow Blade. Assuming Plate PAM Paladin have max of 20 AC (18 + Haste), while Socradin can maintain 20 AC with option of Shield spell for 25 AC. Up to the time where he gets 20 STR he will miss a TONs of attacks with GWM.

No need for any of that, try same build.

3. PAM Paladin won't have PAM, GWM and 20 STR up to maybe 12 (if he skips RES (SON) which will make using Haste no option) or 16 level. While Sorcadin will be able to use Shadow Blade in big fight where it matters from slot level 2 or 3 with 20 in Stat on levels 9 and 11 and having War Caster. Sorcadin also will have easier time to maintain Shadow Blade due to War Caster + Res (CON) and losing it means just to recast it next turn, while PAM Paladin will have still huge success chance on Haste but if he loses it- he is toasted. Like totally.[/QUOTE]

same as above.

[Felyndiira]

Keep in mind that even with all extra attacks he has -5 to hit. [...] PAM have more chance to crit, but less chance to hit the higher AC goes and it's crits is almost 2x weaker than Shadow Blade.

It's important to note that:

1. PAM Paladin required heavy investment into it's build: PAM + GWM is two ASI. Casting Haste takes his first full action so while our PAM Paladin can get more attacks starting from second turn, Sorcadin can with Shadow Blade start first turn wih already two attacks. It's all nitpicks as there are a lot of circumstances in combat but it's at least worth to note.

2. PAM Paladin will have (Assuming Vuman) on level 16: PAM, GWM, RES (CON), +2 STR, +2 STR. Sorcadin will have on level 16: +2 STR, +2 STR, War Caster, RES(CON). Also PAM Paladin will have lower hit chance on lower levels as -5 and not 20 in stat. He will also have harder time keeping haste than Sorcadin keeping Shadow Blade. Assuming Plate PAM Paladin have max of 20 AC (18 + Haste), while Socradin can maintain 20 AC with option of Shield spell for 25 AC. Up to the time where he gets 20 STR he will miss a TONs of attacks with GWM.

3. PAM Paladin won't have PAM, GWM and 20 STR up to maybe 12 (if he skips RES (SON) which will make using Haste no option) or 16 level. While Sorcadin will be able to use Shadow Blade in big fight where it matters from slot level 2 or 3 with 20 in Stat on levels 9 and 11 and having War Caster. Sorcadin also will have easier time to maintain Shadow Blade due to War Caster + Res (CON) and losing it means just to recast it next turn, while PAM Paladin will have still huge success chance on Haste but if he loses it- he is toasted. Like totally.

Gtdead is using true average damage calculations, which factor in hit chances and crit against a target AC (17 in his argument). He didn't actually use the concentration slots in his calculations, either, so here's an excel sheet that adds where the paladin 11 uses his concentration for Bless instead of on nothing:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H5IanXXePoPTHc-NuvudIPzqkB83lsg9xhyyS79WBME/edit?usp=sharing

You'll note that the GWM Paladin 11 that simply casts Bless is very close in DPR to the Shadow Blade Sorcadin, with no smites or resource calculations. Bless also benefits two party members, whose increased hit rates will almost certainly outpace the SB Sorcadin with extra attack. Once you hand said paladin a +2 weapon (rare), he easily outstrips the SB sorcadin in damage. Moreso if both can get advantage (for instance, with paladin oaths).

As for your additional concerns:

1) No haste is involved in any of these calculations. With Haste, GWM + PAM really outdamages the Shadow Blade sorcadin. I added bless to my calcs just to have the paladin concentrate on something, though bless also benefits other people the first round. If you do use Haste, you actually get two attacks on round 1 from Haste Bonus Action + PAM.

2+3) Sorcadins definitely have advantages over pure paladin, especially defensively (shield is a strong spell). The exercise is to show that Shadow Blade is not overpowered by comparing it to a normal paladin's damage, however - not that Sorcadin is actually weaker.

[Benny89]

Why are you comparing straight Paladin to Sorcadin?

My answer was to user who did comparsion to pure Paladin in first place, I just followed up on it.


Gtdead is using true average damage calculations, which factor in hit chances and crit against a target AC (17 in his argument). He didn't actually use the concentration slots in his calculations, either, so here's an excel sheet that adds where the paladin 11 uses his concentration for Bless instead of on nothing:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H5IanXXePoPTHc-NuvudIPzqkB83lsg9xhyyS79WBME/edit?usp=sharing

You'll note that the GWM Paladin 11 that simply casts Bless is very close in DPR to the Shadow Blade Sorcadin, with no smites or resource calculations. Bless also benefits two party members, whose increased hit rates will almost certainly outpace the SB Sorcadin with extra attack. Once you hand said paladin a +2 weapon (rare), he easily outstrips the SB sorcadin in damage. Moreso if both can get advantage (for instance, with paladin oaths).

As for your additional concerns:

1) No haste is involved in any of these calculations. With Haste, GWM + PAM really outdamages the Shadow Blade sorcadin. I added bless to my calcs just to have the paladin concentrate on something, though bless also benefits other people the first round. If you do use Haste, you actually get two attacks on round 1 from Haste Bonus Action + PAM.

2+3) Sorcadins definitely have advantages over pure paladin, especially defensively (shield is a strong spell). The exercise is to show that Shadow Blade is not overpowered by comparing it to a normal paladin's damage, however - not that Sorcadin is actually weaker.

Please note that with Haste you won't use Bless which again will get us back to -5 to hit again. Not to mentioned you used 3d8 SB. Please use GWM + PAM and Haste vs 5d8 SB. Also since you include +10 from GWM, please also include +2 from Dueling on Shadow Blade. It's important to be precise. DIfference in DPR won't be that big.

And also you calculations (thank you for them btw.) confirmed my point.

Damage in you calculation (with Bless on GWM) without advantage are (GWM vs SB): 38,51 vs 43,53.

Also you used 3d8 Shadow Blade in calculation.

Please note that GWM PAM Paladin caps it's damage at 1d10 + 15 + Smite here. While Shadow Blade will increase do 5d8 later. You calculations will go up with 5d8 SB.

Also you said that with Bless GWM will get in more damage from your blessed allies. It's good point, but little irrelevant, as we could also say that party cleric will cast Bless on Both, or party wizard will cast hate etc. Those are factors outside of 1v1 comparsion. But still- a point worth mentioning of course.

[Felyndiira]

What you have mentioned is just a fuel for Sorcadin. Same Sorcadin that has Shadow Blade can do that. But you are missing a point:

Shadow Blade is being used for BBEG. You won't use it vs hordes if you can just use Spirit Guardians or Quicken Fireball etc. Also Animate objects takes action to cast. It's 65 damage in one turn.

Also your 16 poison giant snakes has poor + to hit so please calulate me how many will hit target of AC 18+. Please also compare number of monsters immune and resistant to poison vs enemies resistant and immune to Physic damage.

While Shadow Blade with 3 attacks with 5k8 Smites and Quicken BB will do: 165 damage in one turn.

One crit from Shadow Blade + Smite can do 97 damage.

My point is: Socradins are already Nova kings with Quicken Hold Person, Meta Magic + number of high level slots for Smites. Nobody ever said that Sorcadin lacks Nova dmg vs bosses.

However, now add to that Shadow Blade.



I know what Spirit Guardians can do to horde of mooks, same as other AOE spells. Sorcadin won't use Shadow Blade vs hordes or mooks, he has tons of other options for that. What I am talking about is absurd nova burst for Sorcadins which got buffed with Shadow Blade.

This is my grip. Even 3d8 Shadow Blade on Sorcadin is riddiculous Nova damage. And that is without having to waste 2 ASI for GWM and PAM or using 2-handed weapon.

This is interesting, so allow me to do more calcs with each of these scenarios. Since we're using level 5 upcasted shadow blades, let's compare them versus AC 17 like in Gtdead's example, assuming a paladin with Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 6. We'll assume that the paladin by default has +4 Proficiency and +5 STR for a total of +9 to attacks. For saves, we'll assume that monsters have a 60% chance to fail as well:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nw_uP3WHGblBb3UCc9HsnXlEjzxmkZ1pcPCfkENcCYo/edit?usp=sharing

From these calculations, we get that:


Sorcadins can cast standard action spells as bonus actions with Quicken, just as you do with BB.
Conjure Animals upcast to 5, is the king. 4 Brown Bears outdamage the damage advantage from Shadow Blade by a very wide margin. This is more for comparison since Sorcadin doesn't get CA.
Quickened Animate Object beats the heck out of upcast Shadow Blade in single target damage.
Quickened Upcast Spirit Guardians (Divine Soul) lags behind Shadow Blade by just a bit, while providing utility and a way to deal with a boss's minions.
Normal Holy Weapon (which lasts an hour - much longer than Shadow Blade) does less than Shadow Blade normally.
However, as soon as you get a +1 weapon, Holy Weapon is equal to Shadow Blade. At +2 (or if you have a flametongue), Holy Weapon far surpasses it, while still lasting for an hour.


While I understand your thoughts about "why add another broken spell to the mix?", a damage-only spell that doesn't match up to other spell options isn't typically worth consideration. Shadow Blade doesn't really get crazy until upcast, and even so is less powerful than a lot of its contemporaries - on a Sorcadin, who is the one of the few that can really take advantage of it:

EKs can't upcast it much and need too much investment to get it.
Sorcerers don't get extra attacks natively and do poorly in melee.
Wizards and Warlocks get only one extra attack (on certain archetypes) and not quicken.

And once you get a +1 weapon, Holy Weapon - a similar spell - quickly outpaces it while lasting multiple encounters.


My answer was to user who did comparsion to pure Paladin in first place, I just followed up on it.



Please note that with Haste you won't use Bless which again will get us back to -5 to hit again. Not to mentioned you used 3d8 SB. Please use GWM + PAM and Haste vs 5d8 SB. Also since you include +10 from GWM, please also include +2 from Dueling on Shadow Blade. It's important to be precise. DIfference in DPR won't be that big.

And also you calculations (thank you for them btw.) confirmed my point.

Damage in you calculation (with Bless on GWM) without advantage are (GWM vs SB): 38,51 vs 43,53.

Also you used 3d8 Shadow Blade in calculation.

Please note that GWM PAM Paladin caps it's damage at 1d10 + 15 + Smite here. While Shadow Blade will increase do 5d8 later. You calculations will go up with 5d8 SB.

Also you said that with Bless GWM will get in more damage from your blessed allies. It's good point, but little irrelevant, as we could also say that party cleric will cast Bless on Both, or party wizard will cast hate etc. Those are factors outside of 1v1 comparsion. But still- a point worth mentioning of course.

Sure. Give me a moment to run things. However, keep in mind that a 5d8 Shadow Blade would push our level way up, so I'll be doing calculations at ~level 20 instead of at 11 here, with the full scale of Paladin abilities.

I'll assume that the party cleric casts bless on both, too, so a different concentration spell will be used instead. Pure Paladins get haste with some , so I'll run with that one instead.

[Benny89]

Compare two same level Sorcadins, same everything, one uses SB, the other uses a LS and haste.

Very well.

1st turn: Haste + 2 attacks

1d8 + 7 + 5d8
1d8 + 7 + 5d8 + 3d8 (BB)

2nd turn: 3 attacks + BB

1d8 + 7 + 5d8
1d8 + 7 + 5d8
1d8 + 7 + 5d8
1d8 + 7 + 8d8 (BB)

Total of: 27 + 42 + 162 = 231

1st turn: Shadow Blade + 2 attacks

5d8 + 7 + 5d8
5d8 + 7 + 5d8

2nd turn: 3 attacks

5d8 + 7 + 5d8
5d8 + 7 + 5d8
5d8 + 7 + 8d8 (BB)

Total of 238,5 + 35 = 273,5 damage.

42

However, if our first Sorcadin would use Flame Tongue with 2d6, giving additional 12d6 damage (42) it would be 273.

So to match Shadow Blade on 7th level we would need:
1. Haste spell
2. Flame Tongue

At the same time it's worth to mention that Flame Tongue may never comes and that 5d8 physic damage in many instances will rule over Slashing + Fire damage which are often common resistances.

Crits:

A single crit from Flame Tongue would be: 2d8 + 7 + 4d6 + 10d8 = 16 + 14 + 45 = 75 damage.

A single crit from SB is 97 damage. 20k8 + 7.

[Rukelnikov]

EDIT: misread

For some reason, you only gave 2 attacks to the hasted character the first turn, it should have 3, 2 from action, 1 from haste.

SB gets +4d8 to every attack over standard LS, Haste grants an extra attack, which for the first rounds adds 6d8+7 damage. So in 3 attacks per turn, SB gets 12d8(54), haste gets 6d8+7(34), 20 points in favor of SB over nonmagical LS. This is at least a 16 lvl build since it has Paladin 5 and 7th lvl slots. A +2 LS would be expected (what tier do they become available in AL, for instance?) Meaning the difference is cut from 20 to 12, while also having a +2 to attack, I'd say those are comparably good. A +3 LS makes haste better.

Though, tbf, haste build is going thru spell slots faster, and once they are out, it can't compete.

[Benny89]

And once you get a +1 weapon, Holy Weapon - a similar spell - quickly outpaces it while lasting multiple encounters.

Keep in mind that I try to fucs on buff to Sorcadin Nova damage. Holy Weapon will of course be better option for multiple encounters. However Divine Soul Sorcadin will have access to both spells. Holy Weapon with Weapon +1 won't outdo 7th level Shadow Blade in scenario where it's summoned: a Nova.

Hell, you can even see in my above fast damage calc that Flame Tongue + Haste can match it, but Shadow Blade is guarantee, while Flame Tongue is purely DM depend.

I fully understand how much utility and other options Sorcadins have with a lot of different spells and that we can already get. Hell the sole Fact that you can be Divine Soul sorcadin is broken already...

I just don't think it was needed to add Shadow Blade spell. I think game already had enough exploits and while one builds outclass others- I don't think there is any class that could not play game on comfortable level and face all challanges. I just think that Shadow Blade opens yet another way for exploiting and I just don't like it.

Take it as my personal grip. As I found 5e quite balanced at first (I know I can chose what I run at table) but each new book seems to shift more back into 3.5 imo.

Sorry for long posting.

[Benny89]

EDIT: misread, back to original.

So SB is better when there are 2 adjacent enemies and worse the rest of the time. That's actually good design, cause it means each style is better in different scenarios.

You can't twin BB vs same target. So only one quicken BB on bonus action vs same target.

Twin BB only works vs two targets, though many people here argue that you can't even do that (which I respect).

[Rukelnikov]

Yeah, I completely misread your post, I thought you were accounting for twin BB as standard and Quicken BB as BA.

[samcifer]

My answer was to user who did comparsion to pure Paladin in first place, I just followed up on it.



Please note that with Haste you won't use Bless which again will get us back to -5 to hit again. Not to mentioned you used 3d8 SB. Please use GWM + PAM and Haste vs 5d8 SB. Also since you include +10 from GWM, please also include +2 from Dueling on Shadow Blade. It's important to be precise. DIfference in DPR won't be that big.

And also you calculations (thank you for them btw.) confirmed my point.

Damage in you calculation (with Bless on GWM) without advantage are (GWM vs SB): 38,51 vs 43,53.

Also you used 3d8 Shadow Blade in calculation.

Please note that GWM PAM Paladin caps it's damage at 1d10 + 15 + Smite here. While Shadow Blade will increase do 5d8 later. You calculations will go up with 5d8 SB.

Also you said that with Bless GWM will get in more damage from your blessed allies. It's good point, but little irrelevant, as we could also say that party cleric will cast Bless on Both, or party wizard will cast hate etc. Those are factors outside of 1v1 comparsion. But still- a point worth mentioning of course.

there's a problem, however, in that SB and Haste are both concentration spells, so someone else would need to be the one to caste and maintain Haste for you.

[Mitsu]

I wan to add that in most games DMs don't just focus on weapons mentioned in DMG. You can find quite a lot of magic swords that DMs make on their own. As you said a single Longsword with added 2d6 damage (or 2d8 from anything else) with Haste will match DPR of SB.

I think this build is far more broken: Paladin 6/Hexblade 1/Sorcerer 13. Being SAD CHA by level 12 with War Caster. If you could find at least ONE good damage bonus 1h weapon you would be way stronger than SB focus Sorcadin as you could grab a lot of extra feats (especially as Vuman). You still have free ASI on 16 and 20 for some really strong or thematic feats. Imo it's overall much stronger than SB focused Sorcadin as you have to invest STR or DEX.

You have maxed DC, Attack Stat, 7th level spells and 8th level slot.

But I agree that SB is big buff to already broken class and I also don't like adding yet another easy exploitable feature.

Imo melee cantrips are broken enough.

[Benny89]

there's a problem, however, in that SB and Haste are both concentration spells, so someone else would need to be the one to caste and maintain Haste for you.

But I never mentioned using Haste + SB. I just added that there is no point in starting to argue about "party value" of things like Bless etc. because it's big unknown as you can have Cleric in your Party + Wizard and then we have Shadow Blade 5d8 + Holy Weapon + Haste. It's irrelevant because that is a factor that can't be counted.

I mentioned Haste only as to be used with PAM and GWM vs 5d8 Shadow Blade.

[Felyndiira]

Keep in mind that I try to fucs on buff to Sorcadin Nova damage. Holy Weapon will of course be better option for multiple encounters. However Divine Soul Sorcadin will have access to both spells. Holy Weapon with Weapon +1 won't outdo 7th level Shadow Blade in scenario where it's summoned: a Nova.

Hell, you can even see in my above fast damage calc that Flame Tongue + Haste can match it, but Shadow Blade is guarantee, while Flame Tongue is purely DM depend.

I fully understand how much utility and other options Sorcadins have with a lot of different spells and that we can already get. Hell the sole Fact that you can be Divine Soul sorcadin is broken already...

I just don't think it was needed to add Shadow Blade spell. I think game already had enough exploits and while one builds outclass others- I don't think there is any class that could not play game on comfortable level and face all challanges. I just think that Shadow Blade opens yet another way for exploiting and I just don't like it.

Take it as my personal grip. As I found 5e quite balanced at first (I know I can chose what I run at table) but each new book seems to shift more back into 3.5 imo.

Sorry for long posting.

No worries.

My thoughts on spells are - if it's broken at level 16, that's not a big problem. Core Rulebook has so many of those it doesn't matter if there's one more - nothing really compares to Simulacrum with a 7th level slot, after all, and that's pure CRB. Shadowblade itself is comparable to Holy Weapon - it does more damage and has more nova potential at higher levels, but lasts much shorter. Holy Weapon can be used for multiple battles with a single fifth level spell for the damage it does, and is compatible with all sorts of weapon bonuses (including Flametongue), while Shadowblade has to replace any magic weapons you have entirely. That makes it a worthwhile spell for inclusion - it's good sometimes, but is worse than other options at other times.

I never really found 5e to be that balanced, personally, since the core rulebook. Moon Druids were in the CRB, and that's broken for the low levels where games typically happen. Simulacrum is also in the CRB and is very strong at higher levels. Conjure Animals is also in the CRB, and deals so much damage that CRB options generally can't make up for it, twinned Polymorph takes levels 8-10 and make them a joke, etc. Shadow Blade is actually pretty balanced at lower levels (2d8 or 3d8 weapons is not better than other options at 5-11), and on most of the classes it's on; it only gets really strong for a specific multiclass (sorcadin), and only at very high levels with powerful resource expenditure. If you compare it with spells that wipe encounters by themselves as soon as you get them, it's actually pretty tame.

BTW, Holy Weapon with a +2 magic weapon (or Flametongue) does approximately equal Level 7 Shadow Blade with a full nova once you factor in accuracy (or pure bonus damage in Flametongue's case), and is still only a level 5 slot. Holy Weapon also has the advantage that it can be twinned for even more party DPS, while Shadow Blade cannot.

I'm still working on the level 20 comparisons, also. Give me some time on that one.

---------------------------

EDIT: Here's a comparison between two characters at level 20.

The Paladin 20 has PAM and GWM, wielding a polearm. He has Great Weapon Fighting Style, and pre-buffs Holy Weapon before the battle starts, and uses Vow of Enmity on the primary target as soon as the combat begins to gain advantage. We assume the paladin has a +2 weapon and 20 STR. Bless is cast by an ally cleric for a +2.5 to hit.

The enemy has an AC of 20. Since you only need to meet the AC to hit, we subtract 19 from this hit

Paladin 20, GWM+PAM, Pre-Buff Holy Weapon, Vow of Enmity
His hit rate with GWM penalty is 57.5%. With advantage this is ~82%.
His damage is 1d10 (weapon) + 1d8 (IDS) + 2d8 (HolyWpn) + 5d8 (Smite) + 5 (STR) + 10 (GWM) + 2 (enhancement) + 0.5 (Fighting Style) = 59

On the first round, he does two hits for 100.1 DPR.
On the second round, he does 3 hits at 50.04+50.04+47.46=147.6 DPR

Sorcadin 6/14, Shadow Blade, Vow of Enmity
Both Shadow Blade and the Vow are short term bonus actions, but we'll assume that the paladin managed to do one before combat starts for simplicity (unlike Holy Weapon which can last an entire dungeon).

His hit rate is 73.5%. With advantage this is ~93%.
His damage is 5d8 (Shadow Blade) + 5d8 (Smite) + 5 (STR) + 2 (Fighting Style) = 52

On the first round, he does two hits for 100.6 DPR.
On the second round, he does 3 hits with quickened BB at 50.29+50.29+59.06=159.64 DPR

There's an advantage to Shadow Blade, but only because BB does more damage than PAM and we gave him an extra bonus action. If he couldn't do both vow of enmity and Shadow Blade first round, his DPR for round 2 drops significantly. If we discount Vow of enmity altogether, the Holy Weapon paladin can pre-buff ahead of time and enter the battle with his bonus attack, while the SB sorcadin can't on round 1.

If we use a different paladin vow - say, the one that gives 3 attacks on an attack action as its capstone - this becomes no contest.

From this, I think a Shadow Blade Sorcadin nova is very comparable to a GWM paladin nova at those high levels.

[samcifer]

But I never mentioned using Haste + SB. I just added that there is no point in starting to argue about "party value" of things like Bless etc. because it's big unknown as you can have Cleric in your Party + Wizard and then we have Shadow Blade 5d8 + Holy Weapon + Haste. It's irrelevant because that is a factor that can't be counted.

I mentioned Haste only as to be used with PAM and GWM vs 5d8 Shadow Blade.

Ah, okay. Yeah, I looked at Haste on my GWM + PM paladin and it would only add an average of +3 damage per turn. Not enough to be worth the effort.

[Mitsu]

BTW, Holy Weapon with a +2 magic weapon (or Flametongue) does approximately equal Level 7 Shadow Blade with a full nova once you factor in accuracy (or pure bonus damage in Flametongue's case), and is still only a level 5 slot. Holy Weapon also has the advantage that it can be twinned for even more party DPS, while Shadow Blade cannot

This. And if you get Holy Avenger- in fight against undead of fiends you can do way more damage with Holy Weapon or Haste on it.

That is why I still think Pala 6/Hex 1/Sorc 13 is way more broken than that. It's pure cheese in cheese sauce.

Shadow Blade is strong, but imo it's not most broken thing you can pull off with Sorcadins.

[Shuruke]

I fully understand how much utility and other options Sorcadins have with a lot of different spells and that we can already get. Hell the sole Fact that you can be Divine Soul sorcadin is broken already...

I just don't think it was needed to add Shadow Blade spell. I think game already had enough exploits and while one builds outclass others- I don't think there is any class that could not play game on comfortable level and face all challanges. I just think that Shadow Blade opens yet another way for exploiting and I just don't like it.

Take it as my personal grip. As I found 5e quite balanced at first (I know I can chose what I run at table) but each new book seems to shift more back into 3.5 imo.

Sorry for long posting.

I'd like to point out that 5e isnt intended to be an extremely balanced game with no exploits.

It is catered toward getting new people into dnd (as far as I can tell)
Adding in a spell like shadow blade is something that gives fun options to people who want to be able to fit that aesthetic without being a gish multiclass build.

Most of my players (if you want exact number I counted 16/21 combined total players of multiple campaigns)
Dont multiclass and some of them dont plan out a level path other than "huh that's a cool spell I eventually want that"

In the end I feel shadow blade was a cool addition for e.k and for arcane trickster.

If you feel it is an issue nerf it the books are only a guideline. No matter how much number crunching is done or what is said I dont think your view is gonna change. Therefore just have it use same scaling as flame blade and call it good.

[ad_hoc]

I noticed something since I started to play in 5E. I am myself quite experienced DM (though quite new to DnD). Been DMing various of RPG systems in last 15 years. Also people I play with (my players and other DMs where I play as player) are also quite experienced.

The one thing you can always notice when playing with "older" RPG people is that there is always more roleplay and story and less dices than when you play with new people or when you started with RPGs. Story and roleplay comes first, dialogues, diplomacy etc. Combat is still important and essential but it's not anymore a main focus, more likely it just serves the story and it's meant to be an "epic" piece of it.

Now the default 5E settings says that you should have (if I recall correctly) 6-8 encounters per day. I will be honest- never seen anyone doing that. Due to fact of how many dices are being rolled in DnD, how many attacks, advantages, crits etc. can happen - encounters can be very long. 6-8 bascielly kills all story telling and roleplay in typical 5-7 hour session (which is quite normal for people now with jobs and families).

So because you want to put more effort into story and roleplay- what I usually see is on average 3 encounters per session. Sometimes 2, rarely 4. Never more.

Now considering balance of classes- this shifts balance a lot towards long rest classes vs short rest classes. Of course there this rule of "Long rest = one week" but nobody sane would play with that- it would make on the other hand long rest classes totally unplayable imo.

And I don't think it's blame of DMs or players. I think it's the fault of system which somehow belives that most people play battle-simulator more than story-driven adventures when playing DnD 5E.

I am not looking for solutions or balance propositions as I myself and my friends don't really care about that. I just wanted to talk about that very clear flaw in the system and I wonder how it went through testings like that? People really just combat 90% of their sessions in RPGs?


You're not looking for balance propositions?

You make a thread about how you don't have many encounters per long rest.

Then you make another thread complaining that long rest classes are too powerful and want to find a way to balance them.

If you only have 3 encounters per session then the solution is to have a long rest after 2 sessions (on average). Then you won't run into these problems.

[Mitsu]

You're not looking for balance propositions?

You make a thread about how you don't have many encounters per long rest.

Then you make another thread complaining that long rest classes are too powerful and want to find a way to balance them.

If you only have 3 encounters per session then the solution is to have a long rest after 2 sessions (on average). Then you won't run into these problems.

With all due respect, but bringing up another thread is kind of pety in my opinion. I am not talking about long rests, only about Shadow Blade as boost to Sorcadin + few other builds.

Even DMs making 5-6 encounters per day will still tell you that Sorcadins are broken. Number of encounters can balance a lot of stuff- however it does not change the fact of something being unbalanced. Which I think Shadow Blade kind of is.

That is is not the point of this thread really. I just wanted to share my conerns about very powerful spell which is little too good in my opinion. That is all. Rest of my threads are irrelevant.

As for balance propositions- I could use some. I wanted to make it cap at 3d8, but as someone told me: I could also shift 5d8 into 8th slot instead of 7th making it little more expensive to use for Nova.

[Misterwhisper]

With all due respect, but bringing up another thread is kind of pety in my opinion. I am not talking about long rests, only about Shadow Blade as boost to Sorcadin + few other builds.

Even DMs making 5-6 encounters per day will still tell you that Sorcadins are broken. Number of encounters can balance a lot of stuff- however it does not change the fact of something being unbalanced. Which I think Shadow Blade kind of is.

That is is not the point of this thread really. I just wanted to share my conerns about very powerful spell which is little too good in my opinion. That is all. Rest of my threads are irrelevant.

As for balance propositions- I could use some. I wanted to make it cap at 3d8, but as someone told me: I could also shift 5d8 into 8th slot instead of 7th making it little more expensive to use for Nova.

The balance solution is to learn to dm better not to change abilities in the game.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The balance solution is to learn to dm better not to change abilities in the game.

Amen to that. If you insist on doing things "wrong" (by the manifest assumptions of the game engine), you'll have many more problems than if you do it "right" (by those same assumptions). If, then, problems still persist, then change might be necessary.

I'd say that at least a strong plurality of "balance problems" on this board stem from this same overall issue, honestly.

[Captain Panda]

I know what Spirit Guardians can do to horde of mooks, same as other AOE spells. Sorcadin won't use Shadow Blade vs hordes or mooks, he has tons of other options for that. What I am talking about is absurd nova burst for Sorcadins which got buffed with Shadow Blade.

This is my grip. Even 3d8 Shadow Blade on Sorcadin is riddiculous Nova damage. And that is without having to waste 2 ASI for GWM and PAM or using 2-handed weapon.

But it's still not as good as animate objects, even comparing 1:1, direct nova vs. direct nova. The boost shadow blade gives is going to be, assuming a 5th level slot, 2d8 extra on three or so attacks, after it is cast. So assuming all hits, 6d8. So about 27 extra damage per round over the course of a minute, assuming you quicken a booming blade every single round for a third attack. That's not overpowered for a fifth level spell, and still doesn't compare to the 65 damage per turn provided by animated objects. It has the bonus of being a more reliable damage type, but it's a tradeoff. Far from overpowered. If you think your bosses are getting dropped too fast, give them more hit points. The spell is not at all overpowered when compared to spells that fill a similar role.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread locked for review.