LA +1 Acquirable Templates?

[RoboEmperor]

Trying to remove Savage Species from my build. I need to acquire a +1 template at level 17. Doesn't matter what kind as long as it doesn't take away all of my class features, intelligence, spellcasting, etc.

Lycanthropy is +2 which is why I'm looking for a +1. Having said that, if you know of a cool +2 acquired template I'm all ears as I hate the lycanthrope.

edit:I forgot to mention Dragon magazine is not allowed, and webcontent is highly, highly discouraged. My DM hates it with a passion because of Dweomerkeeper, StP Erudiate, that Kobold Draconic Rite thingy, and Guidance of the Avatar.

edit2: Current winner is Mineralize Warrior for the Mineral Warrior Template.

[Uncle Pine]

Mineral warrior (Underdark) is always an option for brutish types. You can also dip Ghost (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) and become a ghost lycanthrope: this gives you flight, etherealness, undeath, some minor skill boosts, and qualifies you for Lifesense (Libris Mortis). You can even grab a +1 ghost touch necklace of natural weapons to attack with your bite, claws, and so on.

[RoboEmperor]

Mineral warrior (Underdark) is always an option for brutish types. You can also dip Ghost (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) and become a ghost lycanthrope: this gives you flight, etherealness, undeath, some minor skill boosts, and qualifies you for Lifesense (Libris Mortis). You can even grab a +1 ghost touch necklace of natural weapons to attack with your bite, claws, and so on.

Mineral Warrior is setting specific (Underdark), doesn't explain how you acquire the template, and -2 to WIS, INT, and CHA. It hurts but this is acceptable. Thanks. Still gonna look for something better just in case XD

Ghost is webcontent, and has this little doohickey: "Like all ghosts, such an adventurer must have a strong reason for persisting in an undead form. Thus, a player wishing to play a ghost character should consult with the DM to develop a suitable reason for the ghost's existence and determine appropriate circumstances under which she can rest in peace." so i'm gonna have to reject this.

I forgot to mention Dragon magazine is not allowed, and webcontent is highly, highly discouraged. My DM hates it with a passion because of Dweomerkeeper, StP Erudiate, that Kobold Draconic Rite thingy, and Guidance of the Avatar.

[Rebel7284]

Mineralize Warrior is a spell and is a way of gaining the template in question. Still setting specific, but hey, not dragon or web content.

[RoboEmperor]

Mineralize Warrior is a spell and is a way of gaining the template in question. Still setting specific, but hey, not dragon or web content.

Awesome! Mineralize Warrior is my current choice at this time. Let's see if another template that doesn't give -2 to mental stats and isn't setting specific comes to light!

[OgresAreCute]

Lolth-touched from MM4 gives immunity to fear effects, +4 move silently and hide and +6 strength and constitution for +1 LA.

[RoboEmperor]

Lolth-touched from MM4 gives immunity to fear effects, +4 move silently and hide and +6 strength and constitution for +1 LA.

Better than mineral warrior for my purposes, but it seems the only way to get it is by devotion and worship to Lolth. So not RAW, granted only through DM's will, and you need to dedicate yourself to a (former) demon queen, so unless there's a spell like Mineralize Warrior that grants that template, it's sadly not an option despite being awesome.

[Crake]

Necropolitan isn't so much LA +1 but rather it just makes you lose a level, then you can grab an LA of evolved undead? Bonus points for adding on spell stitched as well (no listed LA adjustment, but costs XP and gp to add on). Even MORE bonus points if you get the magic in the blood feat to triple your spell stiched SLAs/day.

Edit: The voidmind template can also work, if you can enslave 3 mind flayers, make them do the ritual on you, then kill them before they can control you (probably with some sort of contingencies/protection from evil/hallow etc in place)

[Inevitability]

The 'Dark' template is +1 LA and gives a rather nice bunch of features. The description says that with DM permission, a character with a strong connection to the plane of shadow may simply acquire it at level-up instead of a class level.


Edit: The voidmind template can also work, if you can enslave 3 mind flayers, make them do the ritual on you, then kill them before they can control you (probably with some sort of contingencies/protection from evil/hallow etc in place)

Voidmind isn't +1 LA but +3 LA, though.

[Crake]

Voidmind isn't +1 LA but +3 LA, though.

Oh, I must have been looking at CR, my bad

[RoboEmperor]

Necropolitan isn't so much LA +1 but rather it just makes you lose a level, then you can grab an LA of evolved undead? Bonus points for adding on spell stitched as well (no listed LA adjustment, but costs XP and gp to add on). Even MORE bonus points if you get the magic in the blood feat to triple your spell stiched SLAs/day.

Edit: The voidmind template can also work, if you can enslave 3 mind flayers, make them do the ritual on you, then kill them before they can control you (probably with some sort of contingencies/protection from evil/hallow etc in place)

I'm specifically looking for LA to increase the XP required to level up so I can craft items with astronomical XP costs. 17,000xp to level up becomes a 35,000xp requirement to level up meaning I can create stuff that requires 35,000xp to craft instead of being limited to 17,000xp.


The 'Dark' template is +1 LA and gives a rather nice bunch of features. The description says that with DM permission, a character with a strong connection to the plane of shadow may simply acquire it at level-up instead of a class level.


You might allow a player character with a strong connection to the Plane of Shadow to acquire this template in lieu of a class level.

So close. On one hand I can grab the Shadow Domain and use that an excuse for this. On the other hand, pretty sure using this method I won't have a "pool" of 35,000xp for crafting, only 18,000xp.

edit:This will however be my choice of template should I decide to keep Savage Species on my Bibliography.

[Crake]

I'm like 99% sure there's a rule somewhere that states that you can delay your levelup to save your xp for crafting. I say that, because the +5 tomes cost 25,500xp in core, which would otherwise be uncraftable.

Ah, here it is, page 88 of the players handbook:


XP Cost: Power and energy that the spellcaster would normally have is expended when making a magic item. The XP cost equals 1/25 the cost of the item in gold pieces (see the Dungeon Master’s Guide for item costs). A character cannot spend so much XP on an item that he or she loses a level. However, upon gaining enough XP to attain a new level, he or she can immediately expend XP on creating an item rather than keeping the XP to advance a level.

[RoboEmperor]

I'm like 99% sure there's a rule somewhere that states that you can delay your levelup to save your xp for crafting. I say that, because the +5 tomes cost 25,500xp in core, which would otherwise be uncraftable.

Ah, here it is, page 88 of the players handbook:

Yeah, that's not reliable unless you're killing something that is CR25 at level 17. In order to craft that +5 Tome you need to hit 25,500xp the moment you pass 17,000xp so unless your latest kill gives 8,501xp+ it's not happening. Anyways I need 28,500xp for the shenanigan I'm trying to pull.

[Uncle Pine]

Even with the aforementioned stance in regards to web enhancements, I believe this one (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a) is worth mentioning.

[Jowgen]

The 'Dark' template is +1 LA and gives a rather nice bunch of features. The description says that with DM permission, a character with a strong connection to the plane of shadow may simply acquire it at level-up instead of a class level.

It can be acquired on purpose if you can visit the Failed Shadow Gate magical location, from Cormyr: the tearing of the weave (which also has the latest printing of the Dark Template). You gotta be a little tough to survive it, and it turns you evil I think, but at 5000 gp it is a steal.

[RoboEmperor]

Even with the aforementioned stance in regards to web enhancements, I believe this one (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a) is worth mentioning.

Funny you should mention that. The DM hates that too. In MiC it directly says the feat provider is the one that pays all the xp cost and that webcontent just eliminates that restriction.


It can be acquired on purpose if you can visit the Failed Shadow Gate magical location, from Cormyr: the tearing of the weave (which also has the latest printing of the Dark Template). You gotta be a little tough to survive it, and it turns you evil I think, but at 5000 gp it is a steal.

I'll give it a look but the Otyugh Hole gave magical locations a really bad name XD

[Crake]

Yeah, that's not reliable unless you're killing something that is CR25 at level 17. In order to craft that +5 Tome you need to hit 25,500xp the moment you pass 17,000xp so unless your latest kill gives 8,501xp+ it's not happening. Anyways I need 28,500xp for the shenanigan I'm trying to pull.

It says you can expend xp on creating an item, not that the crafting needs to necessarily begin right away, so essentially you can keep funneling xp into the item you want to craft until you have enough to begin crafting. Let's be honest, the designers had no intention of you needing to jump through all sorts of hoops just to be able to craft an XP intensive item.

[HouseRules]

You should be limited to 1000 gp and 200 xp per day when crafting. Thus, even if you funnel experience towards making an item, there is a minimal amount of time needed to complete the item.

The 200 xp per day is selected because of the gold experience ratio, but not RAW.

[RoboEmperor]

It says you can expend xp on creating an item, not that the crafting needs to necessarily begin right away, so essentially you can keep funneling xp into the item you want to craft until you have enough to begin crafting. Let's be honest, the designers had no intention of you needing to jump through all sorts of hoops just to be able to craft an XP intensive item.


You should be limited to 1000 gp and 200 xp per day when crafting. Thus, even if you funnel experience towards making an item, there is a minimal amount of time needed to complete the item.

The 200 xp per day is selected because of the gold experience ratio, but not RAW.

RAW directly says you have to pay the cost in full at the beginning of creation. I'd be a VERY happy man if you could prove me wrong. Like VERY happy. But the RAW just does not support your view.

edit:

she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself.

Anyways I'm trying to cast a super expensive Wish rather than craft myself to take advantage of Extract Demonic Essence. Unless Remove Curse uncurses a cursed scroll.

[Crake]

RAW directly says you have to pay the cost in full at the beginning of creation. I'd be a VERY happy man if you could prove me wrong. Like VERY happy. But the RAW just does not support your view.

Uhh, well, I mean, considering you can easily level up when not meeting the conditions necessary to crafting, how ELSE would you expend xp on creating an item rather than keeping the Xp to advance a level?

Since you must spend all the xp and gp on crafting an item at the start of the creation process, but since you will rarely, if ever meet the crafting requirements upon leveling up (unless your DM does some houserule where you can only level up while in a safe area or something), we have to assume that expending xp on creating an item simply means the xp is set aside for crafting and cannot be used for leveling up any longer.

It's either that, or the rule is self defeating and essentially pointless. I choose not to believe that pointless rules exist, so there's only one interpretation that fits.

[Troacctid]

Shadow-walker is good at high levels.

Is there something wrong with just taking another class level?

[RoboEmperor]

Uhh, well, I mean, considering you can easily level up when not meeting the conditions necessary to crafting, how ELSE would you expend xp on creating an item rather than keeping the Xp to advance a level?

Since you must spend all the xp and gp on crafting an item at the start of the creation process, but since you will rarely, if ever meet the crafting requirements upon leveling up (unless your DM does some houserule where you can only level up while in a safe area or something), we have to assume that expending xp on creating an item simply means the xp is set aside for crafting and cannot be used for leveling up any longer.

It's either that, or the rule is self defeating and essentially pointless. I choose not to believe that pointless rules exist, so there's only one interpretation that fits.

I'm pretty sure the rule is there so that you don't get screwed over when your adventure ends with you having 300xp left after level up. So gain enough xp to level up, pay enough to craft something (doesn't have to take out your entire XP pool), and that's it. I don't think the Rule is there for you to craft expensive items, I believe the rule is there so you don't get ****ed by level up mechanics when you want to craft a somewhat expensive item.


Is there something wrong with just taking another class level?

Trying to increase my XP pool for crafting from 17,000xp to 35,000xp instead of 18,000xp

[HouseRules]

Uhh, well, I mean, considering you can easily level up when not meeting the conditions necessary to crafting, how ELSE would you expend xp on creating an item rather than keeping the Xp to advance a level?

Since you must spend all the xp and gp on crafting an item at the start of the creation process, but since you will rarely, if ever meet the crafting requirements upon leveling up (unless your DM does some houserule where you can only level up while in a safe area or something), we have to assume that expending xp on creating an item simply means the xp is set aside for crafting and cannot be used for leveling up any longer.

It's either that, or the rule is self defeating and essentially pointless. I choose not to believe that pointless rules exist, so there's only one interpretation that fits.

Total XP rule prevents you from setting experience aside. Thus, total XP has to be what ever the ECL table says the boundaries are.
This just means, no crafting most of the time since characters just don't have the environment to craft.

[RoboEmperor]

Shadow-walker is good at high levels.

Less accessible than Mineral Warrior but superior by far. I just need to find a priest of Mask and boom, ritual of shadow. Great suggestion!

[Crake]

I'm pretty sure the rule is there so that you don't get screwed over when your adventure ends with you having 300xp left after level up. So gain enough xp to level up, pay enough to craft something (doesn't have to take out your entire XP pool), and that's it. I don't think the Rule is there for you to craft expensive items, I believe the rule is there so you don't get ****ed by level up mechanics when you want to craft a somewhat expensive item.



Trying to increase my XP pool for crafting from 17,000xp to 35,000xp instead of 18,000xp

Hey, if the rule works for 300xp, it should work for 30,000xp.


Total XP rule prevents you from setting experience aside. Thus, total XP has to be what ever the ECL table says the boundaries are.
This just means, no crafting most of the time since characters just don't have the environment to craft.

Setting aside I guess gave the wrong impression. The xp has been expended on item crafting, you've simply not yet determined what item you're going to craft, nor have you started the crafting process yet, thus the xp is expended, but not yet spent.

This is literally the only way i can see for the rule can work without being a dysfunctional rule, unless you can point out a different way for it to work? It also makes sense that they would allow this to enable people to craft xp-expensive items without pulling shenannigans like this, otherwise, as I said, crafting a +5 tome would be literally impossible in core, since you cap at level 20, which only costs 19,000xp to get to.

[RoboEmperor]

Hey, if the rule works for 300xp, it should work for 30,000xp.

Nowhere in any or all item creation rules does it say you can pay the xp in stages. It's all or nothing. Again I'd be happy if you proved me wrong but you did not provide anything that says you can pay the xp in stages.

The intention of the rule you quoted is so that I can craft, for example, a 10,000xp item without getting ****ed by a level up. Nothing about that rule supports paying in stages.

[Blackhawk748]

Nowhere in any or all item creation rules does it say you can pay the xp in stages. It's all or nothing. Again I'd be happy if you proved me wrong but you did not provide anything that says you can pay the xp in stages.

The intention of the rule you quoted is so that I can craft, for example, a 10,000xp item without getting ****ed by a level up. Nothing about that rule supports paying in stages.

The issue is, as Crake has said, unless you read it that way many items are literally impossible to craft without dropping a level, which IIRC, isn't allowed. So those items couldnt exist.

[Crake]

Nowhere in any or all item creation rules does it say you can pay the xp in stages. It's all or nothing. Again I'd be happy if you proved me wrong but you did not provide anything that says you can pay the xp in stages.

The intention of the rule you quoted is so that I can craft, for example, a 10,000xp item without getting ****ed by a level up. Nothing about that rule supports paying in stages.

But the thing is, you DO get screwed by levelup anyway if we follow that logic, because the same rule you refer to also says that the xp must be spent at the start of the crafting process, so the process goes:

1 Gain enough xp to level up
2 Choose to spend xp on item crafting
3 Do not meet the environmental requirements for crafting (and likely don't have the materials on hand)
4 Cannot craft, thus xp is not spent
5 Xp is not spent, thus level up

Thus we have to assume that "Expending xp to craft an item" and "spending xp at the start of the item crafting process" is not the same thing.

Note that I'm not saying you can spend the xp in batches AFTER starting crafting, but if what you say is correct, the rule is literally functionless. It must provide the capability of expending xp on crafting an item BEFORE actually beginning the crafting process. If this is accurate, then what's stopping you from expending the xp in batches before the crafting, accumulating it until enough is present to actually BEGIN crafting?

I honestly will read the rule in the way that results in the least convoluted method of crafting, because lets be honest, either I'm correct, and crafting xp intensive items is as simple as accumulating the xp required and then spending it when you begin crafting, or not only did they write a dysfunctional rule, they also made crafing those items stupidly convoluted.

9/10 if a rule seems dysfunctional, you're just interpreting it wrong, and since this rule is open to multiple interpretations, I'll pick the non-dysfunctional, non-convoluted one every time.

[HouseRules]

If you have enough xp to level up, you must level up.
Remaining xp may be used for crafting.

This is called LEVEL APPROPRIATE ITEM. If you never have a chance to have enough xp to craft, then the item is not level appropriate for you. Level up some more.

[Troacctid]

Trying to increase my XP pool for crafting from 17,000xp to 35,000xp instead of 18,000xp
How does LA help that? The xp between 17 and 18 for a +1 LA character is the same as the xp between 18 and 19 for a +0 LA character. So if you can't spend xp that would drop you a level, the limit for both should be the same, yeah? Am I missing something?

[RoboEmperor]

The issue is, as Crake has said, unless you read it that way many items are literally impossible to craft without dropping a level, which IIRC, isn't allowed. So those items couldnt exist.

A lot of stuff in d&d 3.5 is like that. Undead that can't be created via Create Undead, how the hell do they exist? They just do.

But I think it might make a decent argument? Hmm... So you're saying the only way you can craft that +5 tome is if you pay it in stages therefore you should be able to pay in stages especially since Epic wasn't a thing when core first came out.

But I need something more concrete than this. Like an official example, an official FAQ thing, or something, not just speculation without RAW quotes.


But the thing is, you DO get screwed by levelup anyway if we follow that logic, because the same rule you refer to also says that the xp must be spent at the start of the crafting process, so the process goes:

1 Gain enough xp to level up
2 Choose to spend xp on item crafting
3 Do not meet the environmental requirements for crafting (and likely don't have the materials on hand)
4 Cannot craft, thus xp is not spent
5 Xp is not spent, thus level up

Thus we have to assume that "Expending xp to craft an item" and "spending xp at the start of the item crafting process" is not the same thing.

Note that I'm not saying you can spend the xp in batches AFTER starting crafting, but if what you say is correct, the rule is literally functionless. It must provide the capability of expending xp on crafting an item BEFORE actually beginning the crafting process. If this is accurate, then what's stopping you from expending the xp in batches before the crafting, accumulating it until enough is present to actually BEGIN crafting?

One rule is a special exception and the other rule is a general rule.

Normally you pay at the beginning when crafting, but that special exception rule says you can pay when you level up and then craft whenever you have the time to. You can't use a special exception rule to say a general rule doesn't work.

[Crake]

If you have enough xp to level up, you must level up.
Remaining xp may be used for crafting.

This is called LEVEL APPROPRIATE ITEM. If you never have a chance to have enough xp to craft, then the item is not level appropriate for you. Level up some more.

So are you saying that a +5 tome isn't a level appropriate item until level 26? Also, nice work on blatantly ignoring the rule I posted which explicitly talks about expending xp when you gain enough xp to level up to prevent level up.


A lot of stuff in d&d 3.5 is like that. Undead that can't be created via Create Undead, how the hell do they exist? They just do.

But I think it might make a decent argument? Hmm... So you're saying the only way you can craft that +5 tome is if you pay it in stages therefore you should be able to pay in stages especially since Epic wasn't a thing when core first came out.

But I need something more concrete than this. Like an official example, and official FAQ thing, or something, not just speculation without RAW quotes.



One rule is a special exception and the other rule is a general rule.

Normally you pay at the beginning when crafting, but that special exception rule says you can pay when you level up and then craft whenever you have the time to. You can't use a special exception rule to say a general rule doesn't work.

Why not just ask your DM if he thinks the only way tomes can exist is if people pull shenannigans like you're trying to do, see if he thinks that's stupid or not. If this is a DM agnostic thing you're trying to do, then you can use your own interpretation of RAW, nobody's gonna care. But honestly, ask yourself "is the method I'm going about achieving this actually just so retarded that there's no way this is the actual rules?"

[RoboEmperor]

How does LA help that? The xp between 17 and 18 for a +1 LA character is the same as the xp between 18 and 19 for a +0 LA character. So if you can't spend xp that would drop you a level, the limit for both should be the same, yeah? Am I missing something?


The newly created half-fiend also gains a +4 level adjustment, raising the XP required for it to achieve its next character level. For example, a 5th-level sorcerer who becomes a half-fiend by means of this spell becomes a 9th-level character who needs 45,000 XP to gain his sixth class level.

There are ways to make you instantly gain a template without spending xp, which delays your next level up quite a bit. In the above example the Half Fiend needs 45,000xp to level up so if he spends 25,000xp to craft something when he has 30,000xp, he's not spending so much xp that he loses a level.

[HouseRules]

So are you saying that a +5 tome isn't a level appropriate item until level 26? Also, nice work on blatantly ignoring the rule I posted which explicitly talks about expending xp when you gain enough xp to level up to prevent level up.

Some items do have a very high level requirement. That is a balance factor.

You cannot prevent level up. It is not an option in RAW.

[Troacctid]

So are you saying that a +5 tome isn't a level appropriate item until level 26?
According to MIC, it isn't an appropriate item until level 22.

Tomes and manuals can be crafted in stages no problem, though. You create a +1 tome, then upgrade it to +2, then +3, then +4, then +5. NBD.


There are ways to make you instantly gain a template without spending xp, which delays your next level up quite a bit. In the above example the Half Fiend needs 45,000xp to level up so if he spends 25,000xp to craft something when he has 30,000xp, he's not spending so much xp that he loses a level.
Delaying your next level doesn't change the threshold for the previous level. You shouldn't be able to spend xp that would drop you below that threshold.

[Crake]

Some items do have a very high level requirement. That is a balance factor.

You cannot prevent level up. It is not an option in RAW.

Except....


However, upon gaining enough XP
to attain a new level, he or she can immediately expend XP on
creating an item rather than keeping the XP to advance a level.


According to MIC, it isn't an appropriate item until level 22.

Actually, by the MIC, you can get it quite easily at level 18. You can use 2 level 18 items to gain a level 22 item, and for their alternate WBL system, you gain 2 items of each level starting from your own level down to 1st level.

As for random treasure, items up to level 25 appear on the level 20 loot table, with a 17% chance of getting 22 or above. Seems like it's pretty easily appropriate long before 26, and definitely before 22.

Note that item level in the MIC doesn't correspond to "expected player level before it becomes available", it's literally just a simple system used to determine the rough value of the item, 22nd level being items of value 120,001gp - 140,000gp

[HouseRules]

Except....

That depends upon the Leveling Up Rules the DM uses.

Part A:

XP Award after battle (new school)
XP Award after game session (default 3E)
XP Award after an adventure (old school, watch out, an adventure could take over a year to complete)

Part B:

Immediate Level Up
Requires Training to Level Up


In an Immediate Level Up and XP Award after battle, your character already leveled up. No possible argument about it at all! There's no chance to delay with crafting under this circumstance.

You cannot set xp aside. What you are saying is setting it aside until you decide what to craft. That's not possible. If you do not know what you want to craft, you cannot set xp aside.

Level Appropriate and Minimum Level to Craft are two different things. At times, the Level Appropriate < Level to Craft because you can buy those magic items.

[RoboEmperor]

Delaying your next level doesn't change the threshold for the previous level. You shouldn't be able to spend xp that would drop you below that threshold.

If we follow your logic that character cannot craft any item or use a spell with and xp cost until she accrues 36,000xp.

No, this character does not gain or lose levels until she accrues 45,000xp. She was ECL 9 at 10,000xp and she will be ECL 9 through out 10,000-44,999xp and she will not lose a level when she drops from 40,000xp to 20,000xp because at both times she is still ECL 9.

[HouseRules]

If we follow your logic that character cannot craft any item or use a spell with and xp cost until she accrues 36,000xp.

No, this character does not gain or lose levels until she accrues 45,000xp. She was ECL 9 at 10,000xp and she will be ECL 9 through out 10,000-44,999xp and she will not lose a level when she drops from 40,000xp to 20,000xp because at both times she is still ECL 9.

You cannot accrue more than 9000 XP (beyond to minimum for ECL 9) at ECL 9 unless it comes in a single battle. Otherwise, you have to level up (unless your DM have more requirements than just XP for leveling up). Leveling up will screw you over.

[RoboEmperor]

You cannot accrue more than 9000 XP (beyond to minimum for ECL 9) at ECL 9 unless it comes in a single battle. Otherwise, you have to level up (unless your DM have more requirements than just XP for leveling up). Leveling up will screw you over.

I think you should read the thread before replying because this is the 2nd time your reply is missing very important aspects of the discussion at hand.

[Crake]

Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and paste this little gem written by the good ol' author of the PHB skipperooni williams:


According to the rules, you can never spend so much experience that you lose a level -- though you can delay gaining a level and instead keep your experience points available for item creation (or spellcasting). If you do so, you always can change your mind. That is, you can gain a new level anytime you have enough experience to do so, even after delaying awhile.

From this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041207a).

[HouseRules]

From this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041207a).
delay a level gain, but never two level gains.

[RoboEmperor]

Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and paste this little gem written by the good ol' author of the PHB skipperooni williams:



From this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041207a).

That... is... A... FREAKING... GEM!!!!!

OMG!!!!

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3

NOT ONLY FOR ITEM CRAFTING, BUT FOR FEATS. LIKE INFERNAL BARGAINER. Delay level, Persist Lesser Holy Transformation, then grab it! No predicting when you are gonna level up and wasting turn attempts on a pre-emptive lesser holy transformation!

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3

I'm a dissect that article and... just... wow!

[Troacctid]

If we follow your logic that character cannot craft any item or use a spell with and xp cost until she accrues 36,000xp.

No, this character does not gain or lose levels until she accrues 45,000xp. She was ECL 9 at 10,000xp and she will be ECL 9 through out 10,000-44,999xp and she will not lose a level when she drops from 40,000xp to 20,000xp because at both times she is still ECL 9.
I think before she accrues 36,000 xp, she should still be able to spend xp because it does not bring her over the threshold of a new level. After that, dropping below 36,000 xp again should cause her to go down a level and would not work.

[RoboEmperor]

BTW Crake, despite my hearts, you're still wrong about paying xp in stages. That article still says you pay in one go.


I think before she accrues 36,000 xp, she should still be able to spend xp because it does not bring her over the threshold of a new level. After that, dropping below 36,000 xp again should cause her to go down a level and would not work.

That's a decent argument, but now it's moot!!!

[Crake]

delay a level gain, but never two level gains.

You're right, you can never go up 2 levels, if ever you level up and you have enough xp to go to the next level immediately, you're instead put to 1 xp below the next level. That isn't to say you can't accumulate enough xp to level up twice, you just simply can't level up twice immediately. So if you're level 9, you can can 9000xp to level up to 10, but choose not to, then you could accumulate another 10,000xp, which would let you level up to 11 in theory, but should you ever actually level up to 10 with more than 10,000 reserve xp, it would instantly drop to 9,999xp. But you COULD in theory save up 20,000xp to craft something very expensive, nothing is stopping you from doing that, but if you ever change your mind and want to level up, you're gonna waste a WHOOLLLE bunch of xp.


BTW Crake, despite my hearts, you're still wrong about paying xp in stages. That article still says you pay in one go.

With the ability to save up xp indefinitely, the need to pay in stages is completely irrelevant.

[Troacctid]

You can technically pay in stages for items that can be "partially" crafted and then upgraded, like the aforementioned tome.

Also, the FAQ kinda says you cannot delay.

[HouseRules]

Sooo... now you're changing your tune? Before you were saying you can't delay level gain at all? But that's irrelevant anyway, you can never go up 2 levels, if ever you level up and you have enough xp to go to the next level immediately, you're instead put to 1 xp below the next level. That isn't to say you can't accumulate enough xp to level up twice, you just simply can't level up twice immediately. So if you're level 9, you can can 9000xp to level up to 10, but choose not to, then you could accumulate another 10,000xp, which would let you level up to 11 in theory, but should you ever actually level up to 10 with more than 10,000 reserve xp, it would instantly drop to 9,999xp. But you COULD in theory save up 20,000xp to craft something very expensive, nothing is stopping you from doing that, but if you ever change your mind and want to level up, you're gonna waste a WHOOLLLE bunch of xp.



With the ability to save up xp indefinitely, the need to pay in stages is completely irrelevant.

One could pretend to craft, and delay so they gain xp multipliers. Large multipliers. Say 4x for being four levels lower than the party. Yep. Spell Casters gain xp faster by pretending to craft or save xp for casting spells.

[Crake]

One could pretend to craft, and delay so they gain xp multipliers. Large multipliers. Say 4x for being four levels lower than the party. Yep. Spell Casters gain xp faster by pretending to craft or save xp for casting spells.

You can at best keep yourself perpetually 1 level behind by doing this, because as I said, if you ever level up with enough xp to go up twice, the extra xp is wasted. And since you're gaining xp faster, you're going to be passing that threshold faster than you'll be able to hold yourself back, meaning you're going to just end up wasting xp, and thus the whole thing is pointless unless you actually ARE spending the xp on crafting or spells.

[HouseRules]

You can at best keep yourself perpetually 1 level behind by doing this, because as I said, if you ever level up with enough xp to go up twice, the extra xp is wasted. And since you're gaining xp faster, you're going to be passing that threshold faster than you'll be able to hold yourself back, meaning you're going to just end up wasting xp, and thus the whole thing is pointless unless you actually ARE spending the xp on crafting or spells.

On one hand you say the extra xp is wasted, on the other hand, you say the extra xp is not wasted. You need to be consistent.

[RoboEmperor]

You can technically pay in stages for items that can be "partially" crafted and then upgraded, like the aforementioned tome.

Also, the FAQ kinda says you cannot delay.

Could you point me to the exact entry? All I could find was that you can't delay feats and class features.

Skip Williams and other stuff like Ghostwalk book (says you can delay leveling up until you rested for 8 hours) says delaying level ups are a thing so I need that FAQ entry to go to war with it XD

Anyways about your earlier threshold argument, the problem is easily rectified by going a LA+2 template like lycanthrope.

[Crake]

You can technically pay in stages for items that can be "partially" crafted and then upgraded, like the aforementioned tome.

Also, the FAQ kinda says you cannot delay.

I just went through the FAQ, and the only mention of delaying was delaying feat and skill choices post levelup, nothing about being unable to delay the levelup itself.


On one hand you say the extra xp is wasted, on the other hand, you say the extra xp is not wasted. You need to be consistent.

If you read what I said, the extra xp is wasted if you level up with an excess of xp.

[HouseRules]

Could you point me to the exact entry? All I could find was that you can't delay feats and class features.

Skip Williams and other stuff like Ghostwalk book (says you can delay leveling up until you rested for 8 hours) says delaying level ups are a thing so I need that FAQ entry to go to war with it XD

Anyways about your earlier threshold argument, the problem is easily rectified by going a LA+2 template like lycanthrope.

Partially Craft is Like This:
Craft a +1.
Then Craft a +2.
Then Craft a +3.
Then Craft a +4.
Then Craft a +5.

Not all items have "partial stages" that could be craft.

[Troacctid]

I just went through the FAQ, and the only mention of delaying was delaying feat and skill choices post levelup, nothing about being unable to delay the levelup itself.
I did say kinda.


Skip Williams and other stuff like Ghostwalk book (says you can delay leveling up until you rested for 8 hours) says delaying level ups are a thing so I need that FAQ entry to go to war with it XD
I mean it's a thing in the DMG if you want to get technical. The DM can call for downtime spent training in order to gain the benefits of leveling up.

It also says the default is that training is assumed to be going on all the time in the background, BTW, so you shouldn't be able to cheat requirements by only meeting them during the exact 2-minute period where you level up.


Anyways about your earlier threshold argument, the problem is easily rectified by going a LA+2 template like lycanthrope.
Correct.

[RoboEmperor]

It also says the default is that training is assumed to be going on all the time in the background, BTW, so you shouldn't be able to cheat requirements by only meeting them during the exact 2-minute period where you level up.

I won't but a munchkin might argue that. But I won't because I too view that as BS. My requirement is 8 hours or 24 hours.

[Crake]

It also says the default is that training is assumed to be going on all the time in the background, BTW, so you shouldn't be able to cheat requirements by only meeting them during the exact 2-minute period where you level up.

While initially I would agree with you, the rules are also quite clear in that you lose the benefits of feats when you no longer meet the pre-requisites, and I remember reading somewhere that temporary benefits allow you to qualify for feats, the example being a druid taking multiattack. If it works for a druid wildshaping, it works for a cleric divine powering IMO. Of course, if you want to get a bunch of feats that only function while you're using a very specific, and very short duration spell, sure, be my guest, and if you want to spend resources persisting it, go right ahead, though you may be a sad puppy when you get dispelled.

Prestige classes on the other hand...

[Troacctid]

Prestige classes are more than issue, yeah. Wasn't there an Iron Chef round where one entry claimed it could qualify for the secret ingredient early by hiring a bard to inspire greatness and then casting divine power immediately before leveling up to cheat the BAB prerequisite, or something like that?

[RoboEmperor]

Prestige classes are more than issue, yeah. Wasn't there an Iron Chef round where one entry claimed it could qualify for the secret ingredient early by hiring a bard to inspire greatness and then casting divine power immediately before leveling up to cheat the BAB prerequisite, or something like that?

I think the bigger issue is people saying Prestige Classes are "first step" and therefore you can ditch the prerequisites and they quote Dragon Disciple as their argument.

But if you look at PHBII's retraining rules which directly says if you no longer meet the prerequisite of a PrC you lose all benefits of it (not just the ones in complete warrior), you know they're wrong and DD is a special exception to the rule.

[HouseRules]

I think the bigger issue is people saying Prestige Classes are "first step" and therefore you can ditch the prerequisites and they quote Dragon Disciple as their argument.

But if you look at PHBII's retraining rules which directly says if you no longer meet the prerequisite of a PrC you lose all benefits of it (not just the ones in complete warrior), you know they're wrong and DD is a special exception to the rule.

It's also in the 3.0 DMG, but 3.5 DMG omit that part.

[Crake]

I think the bigger issue is people saying Prestige Classes are "first step" and therefore you can ditch the prerequisites and they quote Dragon Disciple as their argument.

But if you look at PHBII's retraining rules which directly says if you no longer meet the prerequisite of a PrC you lose all benefits of it (not just the ones in complete warrior), you know they're wrong and DD is a special exception to the rule.

Yeah, but if you did it 1 level early, and the PRC in question was full bab, you would become self fulfilling after level up. I think determining prestige class qualification and all that is a bridge individual DMs need to decide how they want to run when the time comes.

Personally, I'm not a fan of say, a black guard losing all his abilities just because he had his strength reduced to below 13, which means he loses power attack, which means he no longer qualifies for black guard, but at the same time, I'm perfectly satisfied with a black guard losing all his abilities if he qualified for black guard by using the heroics spell.

[Quertus]

RAW directly says you have to pay the cost in full at the beginning of creation. I'd be a VERY happy man if you could prove me wrong. Like VERY happy. But the RAW just does not support your view.

So, you can still improve items, right? That wasn't just a 3.0 thing, was it? So, to make a +1 Flaming Sword, you could still make a +1 Sword, and later add the Flaming enchantment, right?

[RoboEmperor]

So, you can still improve items, right? That wasn't just a 3.0 thing, was it? So, to make a +1 Flaming Sword, you could still make a +1 Sword, and later add the Flaming enchantment, right?

Yup. MiC directly says you can improve and combine magic items with virtually no restrictions. You can combine 10 pearls of power into one super pearl of power that you can use 10 times in a day. You can merge all of the metamagic rods into one rod (though you can only use 1 metamagic effect from a rod at a time). You can merge every single glove item in the game into one super glove. etc.

[Rebel7284]

Shroud of Undeath + Vile Death also work for spells granting a template

[RoboEmperor]

Shroud of Undeath + Vile Death also work for spells granting a template

I rather go Necropolitan + Vile Death, but it is much more preferable than lycanthrope for a +2 template so thanks!

[Jowgen]

I rather go Necropolitan + Vile Death, but it is much more preferable than lycanthrope for a +2 template so thanks!

Note that its very debatable whether Vile Death actually imposes a LA. The spell is permanent, as opposed to instantaneous, making it not only dispellable (and suppressable with AMFs), but its actually dismissable as well. It's basically just a longer duration Demonic Blood Infusion, i.e. a buff spell as opposed to an actual inherent change to the creature.

Compare to Nar Fiendbond, which straight up grants Half-Fiend instantaneous, and actually spells out that you are subject to the LA. Vile Death doesn't have that.

Making temporary templates impose an LA also opens up a can of worms when it comes to other modular template appliers, like the greater collar of umbral metamorphosis (ToM).

[RoboEmperor]

Note that its very debatable whether Vile Death actually imposes a LA. The spell is permanent, as opposed to instantaneous, making it not only dispellable (and suppressable with AMFs), but its actually dismissable as well. It's basically just a longer duration Demonic Blood Infusion, i.e. a buff spell as opposed to an actual inherent change to the creature.

Compare to Nar Fiendbond, which straight up grants Half-Fiend instantaneous, and actually spells out that you are subject to the LA. Vile Death doesn't have that.

Making temporary templates impose an LA also opens up a can of worms when it comes to other modular template appliers, like the greater collar of umbral metamorphosis (ToM).

I missed that Permanent duration part of the spell. Assumed it was instantaneous. My bad.

[AmeVulpes]

So, you can still improve items, right? That wasn't just a 3.0 thing, was it? So, to make a +1 Flaming Sword, you could still make a +1 Sword, and later add the Flaming enchantment, right?

I just got ninja'd on this in another thread. Correct not just by MIC. DMG gives huge breadth.

A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do so is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 sword.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Lolth-touched from MM4 gives immunity to fear effects, +4 move silently and hide and +6 strength and constitution for +1 LA.
It says a lot about Lolth that even the munchkins around here don't mention it much :smallamused:

[Troacctid]

It says a lot about Lolth that even the munchkins around here don't mention it much :smallamused:
See, that's why you gotta use the Eberron version based on Vulkoor or the Fury. Both much more reasonable.