How do tiny creatures intimidate?

[RoboEmperor]

Big guy smashing a table and yelling at his target is obvious. But what about a tiny scrawny guy?

You have a tiny creature with an insane Intimidate score trying to intimidate a Huge creature. Doing the math, this tiny creature has a 100% chance of intimidating the creature. Mechanically, the tiny creature expends no resource like spells to intimidate.

So how does this happen? What can the tiny creature do to intimidate a Huge strong guy who probably can kill the Tiny creature in a fight?

I thought about "I will suck your soul out and eat it" but that's a lie so that's a bluff not intimidate. (I know that there are ways to extract souls from a creature but for this scenario this tiny creature has no way of extracting souls)

[Silva Stormrage]

Death by a thousand cuts. A tiny pixie with a small knife could just threaten to do precise cuts on painful parts of the body or threaten to stab the eye or anything else. Eye scream is a very popular trope for little guy fighting giant monster.

And thats not even getting into if the tiny creature is a spellcaster, in which case anyone remotely sane throws size out the window in gauging threats. Just because they don't CAST anything doesn't mean the enemy doesn't know they can cast anything.

The other thing is you can also be fairly intimidating just by acting confident. If this big hulking bruiser is threatening a small childlike figure and the child just stares back utterly unimpressed and walks slowly towards the bruiser... Well I could see the Bruiser start to get concerned if it's a fantasy world where shapechangers or other such fantasy monsters live.

[RoboEmperor]

Death by a thousand cuts. A tiny pixie with a small knife could just threaten to do precise cuts on painful parts of the body or threaten to stab the eye or anything else. Eye scream is a very popular trope for little guy fighting giant monster.

And thats not even getting into if the tiny creature is a spellcaster, in which case anyone remotely sane throws size out the window in gauging threats. Just because they don't CAST anything doesn't mean the enemy doesn't know they can cast anything.

The other thing is you can also be fairly intimidating just by acting confident. If this big hulking bruiser is threatening a small childlike figure and the child just stares back utterly unimpressed and walks slowly towards the bruiser... Well I could see the Bruiser start to get concerned if it's a fantasy world where shapechangers or other such fantasy monsters live.

Awesome suggestions!

[GloatingSwine]

So how does this happen? What can the tiny creature do to intimidate a Huge strong guy who probably can kill the Tiny creature in a fight?

Run up a trouser leg.

Cuius Testiculos Habes, Habeas Cardia Et Cerebellum - "When you have their full attention in your grip, their hearts and minds will follow".

[Crake]

I thought about "I will suck your soul out and eat it" but that's a lie so that's a bluff not intimidate. (I know that there are ways to extract souls from a creature but for this scenario this tiny creature has no way of extracting souls)

That would be both bluff and intimidate, so still counts.

[AmeVulpes]

Threaten to fly up its nose and gut it from the inside. With that huge of a size difference, might be believable.

I certainly wouldn't want that.

[RoboEmperor]

That would be both bluff and intimidate, so still counts.

If anything that will be a successful bluff check giving a circumstance bonus to intimidate so it doesn't count. I'm talking pure intimidate.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Since 3.5 doesn't do a good job of supporting flying up giants' urethras, are any of the above methods of intimidating much larger creatures actually more valid than claiming magical powers you don't have? Intimidate is just a thing you kinda have to accept, people cower in fear when a posh swashbuckler stabs and fails to kill a mook because a mechanic says so, while the only react to a demon mowing them down by the dozen when the DM declares they should.

If Intimidate functioning this way breaks the verisimilitude of the world, then as DM (or if you're not DM you can request that the DM) not allow PC's or NPC's to invest in intimidate if they can't reasonably picture the character being intimidating.

[AmeVulpes]

Since 3.5 doesn't do a good job of supporting flying up giants' urethras, are any of the above methods of intimidating much larger creatures actually more valid than claiming magical powers you don't have? Intimidate is just a thing you kinda have to accept, people cower in fear when a posh swashbuckler stabs and fails to kill a mook because a mechanic says so, while the only react to a demon mowing them down by the dozen when the DM declares they should.

The books repeatedly call out that creatures aren't aware of the rules by which they play (admittedly, most often in reference to the idea of level or hit dice). The rules need not support something for it to be believable to a person in the world.

Your character may fully believe he is going to fly up a giant's urethra, for gods-know-what reason. No Bluff check required.

[Zaq]

Worth mentioning is the fact that the Intimidate rules do penalize for size. You get a +4 on Intimidate for each size category larger you are than your target, and you get a –4 penalty for each size category smaller you are.

Sure, 3.5 being what it is, it’s possible to juice up your mod enough that you’ll overcome that penalty and still succeed, but the rules DO acknowledge that the scenario you’re describing is significantly more difficult than picking on someone your own size (or smaller).

[RoboEmperor]

Worth mentioning is the fact that the Intimidate rules do penalize for size. You get a +4 on Intimidate for each size category larger you are than your target, and you get a –4 penalty for each size category smaller you are.

Sure, 3.5 being what it is, it’s possible to juice up your mod enough that you’ll overcome that penalty and still succeed, but the rules DO acknowledge that the scenario you’re describing is significantly more difficult than picking on someone your own size (or smaller).

I understand this, but I'm just trying to understand the FLUFF not Crunch.

I can't just say
"I intimidate"
roll
The end.

I gotta say
"I give off the presence of a harbinger of death"
roll

or something like that.

[AmeVulpes]

I gotta say
"I give off the presence of a harbinger of death"
roll

or something like that.

That's not going very far into fluff. If that's all you're going for, just make a scary face or somesuch. I don't really see a difference between saying "I give off the presence of a harbinger of death" and "I intimidate."

Intimidate to me is either making specific threats, or being physically or visually imposing. RP-wise, I think you're at a disadvantage on the latter.

Another way to take it is to be existential, you could ask where your foe sees his soul in five minutes.

[RoboEmperor]

I don't really see a difference between saying "I give off the presence of a harbinger of death" and "I intimidate."

Which is why i'm searching for alternatives.

[Deophaun]

Why are many humans afraid of spiders?

Also, your example is only a Bluff if the character no intention of ever sucking out his soul and eating it. Remember, UMD is a thing, and spite can make someone go through a lot of effort to fulfill a threat.

The books repeatedly call out that creatures aren't aware of the rules by which they play
Yeah, but then they write something like

"My armor? +1 adamantine light fortification full plate. I wouldn't leave home without it."

[RoboEmperor]

Why are many humans afraid of spiders?

Also, your example is only a Bluff if the character no intention of ever sucking out his soul and eating it. Remember, UMD is a thing, and spite can make someone go through a lot of effort to fulfill a threat.

That is good reasoning! Awesome!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The books repeatedly call out that creatures aren't aware of the rules by which they play (admittedly, most often in reference to the idea of level or hit dice).And yet the rules only function if the characters do have awareness of the rules. It's entirely possible to use skill checks, magic, observation, and the scientific method to determine these things in a very concrete manner.

[AmeVulpes]

Yeah, but then they write something like

This is true, but I feel that's different from knowing that a Grig can't enter your lungs through your nose like a Belker's claw, just because no written rule says it can.

It's a dangerous can of worms to have people be aware of the rules by which they play. Quantifying magic items for the purpose of a consistent market price, I feel is less so.

[Uncle Pine]

"Your brain and ears may be far up in the air, but I bet you've heard of the stunts of the Arseplomancer at least once in your life. No? Here, let me show you..."

"Listen to me, or I'll bite your toenail off!"

If the Tiny creature managed to invest so much into Intimidate to pull off a check like this, it'll probably have several levels and special abilities. An actual demonstration (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IntimidationDemonstration) of any of them can accompany the intimidation attempt, even without expending spells or resources:
- a Barbarian could brag about the sharpness of his minuscule greataxe and offer a terminal demonstration;
- a Bard could reminiscence confidently about some dread foe she bended with voice alone;
- a Cleric or a Paladin could remind an opponent that gods strike their enemies regardless of size;
- a Druid or Ranger could idly stroke the fur of her giant pet;
- a Fighter could comment about how sloppy the opponent's fighting stance looks, even from down there;
- a Monk could disintegrate a chair by wielding it as an improvised weapon and rolling a natural 1;
- a Rogue could threaten to teach an enemy the meaning of death by a thousand cuts;
- a Sorcerer or Wizard could draw a parallel between himself and fireballs: one lacks patience, the other a fuse.

Also, courtesy of the Ancestor:
"Prodigious size alone does not dissuade the sharpened blade."

"Monstrous size has no intrinsic merit, unless inordinate exsanguination be considered a virtue."

"The bigger the beast, the greater the glory."

[RoboEmperor]

- a Cleric or a Paladin could remind an opponent that gods strike their enemies regardless of size;

I really like this one.

Also considering that 5 ranks in bluff gives a +2 to intimidate, I guess you're allowed to lie in an intimidate check.

[XionUnborn01]

Depending on the scenario, a threat of torture or violence is totally a likely use of intimidate.

If you think about classic depictions of the torturer type, they're not usually the big hulking bruisers. Usually it's a smaller, skinny guy with a collection of knives or something.

Say you're talking to some guy in a bar trying to get info. Hea trying to blow you off so you lean in and tell him about the knives, blades, weapons, or magic items you have available. You then explain how they can be used to induce all kinds of pain and damage to a body. You explain that being small makes it easier to get into the right spots to cause the most pain. Basically you're showing your extreme confidence and using that to intimidate him.

[Menzath]

Well any creature beyond small size is likely not a humanoid, so I would say part of it is their inhuman nature would seem much more prominent.

Especially with fey type creatures, they are well known for being tricksters. Some of which are down right malicious.

"Better watch your step, wouldnt want you getting stuck in a pixie circle... For 5 years."

So I guess it wouldn't be the immediate threat of violence sometimes, but rather the threat of messing with them hard for a horribly extended period of time.

[Lapak]

If the Tiny creature managed to invest so much into Intimidate to pull off a check like this, it'll probably have several levels and special abilities. An actual demonstration (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IntimidationDemonstration) of any of them can accompany the intimidation attempt, even without expending spells or resources:
...
- a Rogue could threaten to teach an enemy the meaning of death by a thousand cuts;

Small, not Tiny, but this did remind of something. A sufficient display of weaponry and willingness to use it can give anyone pause, even if you're pinned under a chunk of metal at the time (http://rustyandco.com/comic/level-7-91/).

[Feantar]

So how does this happen? What can the tiny creature do to intimidate a Huge strong guy who probably can kill the Tiny creature in a fight?

I thought about "I will suck your soul out and eat it" but that's a lie so that's a bluff not intimidate. (I know that there are ways to extract souls from a creature but for this scenario this tiny creature has no way of extracting souls)

The tiny Pixie flies up to the dragon's left eye and stares into it, unblinking. The dragon smirks. She flicks a gnomish quick-razor. First, I'll start with your cornea.


Run up a trouser leg.

Cuius Testiculos Habes, Habeas Cardia Et Cerebellum - "When you have their full attention in your grip, their hearts and minds will follow".

Please have an internet for the Terry Pratchett quote. De Chelonian Mobile.

[King of Nowhere]

threatening physical violence is only one of many forms of intimidation, and the only one where a size modifier makes sense (i also let one use str modifier for it, since this intimidation depends a lot on how strong one looks).

other forms of intimidation include

- I am a powerful spellcasters and I can fry you to a cinder
- I am friend with the city authorities, and I will get you in trouble
- I am weak, but my dad is a black belt at karate. You hurt me, I tell him
- I am smaller than you, but I am still bigger than your children, who go every morning at 8 AM to the school in 17th street, would be a shame if something happened to them
- I am a mobster, I will send my mooks to deal with you
- I will report you to authority figures, who will give you trouble
- I will steal/damage your valuable property. Scratch your car, throw stones at your window, that kind of stuff
- I will talk ill about you
- I will reveal dirty secrets about you

All of the above have absolutely nothing to do with physical size, and all of the above, except the first, also apply to the real world.

In fact, I'm thinking to make a rework of the intimidate skill, taking into account different modifiers depending on what you threaten and how believable the threat is.

[Troacctid]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/467192850862571522/546838852153901058/Faerie-Duelist-Ravnica-Allegiance-Art.png

[zlefin]

I'm sure if I thought about cartoons for a bit, and did some youtube diving; I could point to a number of instances of it happening with clips.
ofc some of those are cuz the tiny creature is in fact very VERY tough.

[unseenmage]

How was the doll in the Chuckie movies ever intimidating?
Basically that.

There are just so many hiding places in the average home of the tall folk... especially the sleeping chambers.

[RoboEmperor]

How would you guys intimidate a Huge Elemental? No anatomy for eye screams and such.

[Deophaun]

Honestly, all elementals are highly vulnerable to long-duration enslavement via planar binding. I could threaten to turn a huge water elemental into a wash tub for a goblin tribe.

[RoboEmperor]

Honestly, all elementals are highly vulnerable to long-duration enslavement via planar binding. I could threaten to turn a huge water elemental into a wash tub for a goblin tribe.

They don't know that. They have 6 int and 0 spellcraft. Not a chance in hell they'd know what the hell you're talking about.

[Deophaun]

Just because they don't know how they get enslaved doesn't mean they don't know that they are frequently bound to service. After all, if you're finding an elemental on the prime material, chances are it got there by a mage calling it to perform a task. They definitely know mortals possess the capability.

[JNAProductions]

Also, if we're working on pure RAW, no Commoner knows anything about animals. Any of them.

They all have more than 0 HD, and the Knowledge check for knowing about a creature is DC 10+HD. Can't hit an 11 without being trained, and Knowledge skills are cross class!

[RoboEmperor]

Also, if we're working on pure RAW, no Commoner knows anything about animals. Any of them.

They all have more than 0 HD, and the Knowledge check for knowing about a creature is DC 10+HD. Can't hit an 11 without being trained, and Knowledge skills are cross class!

To be fair, they wouldn't know of any animal unless they came into contact with it. What kind of commoner would know about a riding dog if they never seen one before?

About the Elemental, I'm trying to scare it so it's more amenable to servitude. XD. So can't threaten them with slavery when I'm trying to turn him into a slave!

So from what I gathered from the thread, my options are
1. Threaten them with my power as a divine spellcaster (Cleric). Something about gods striking anyone who opposes me.
2. Threat of Death via Spells
3. Unnervingly stare at them and let their imagination run wild and fear me for a reason they made up.
4. Say I am gonna eat their soul if they displease me in any way

I think I can use a combination of all 4 as a single intimidate check.

[Deophaun]

About the Elemental, I'm trying to scare it so it's more amenable to servitude. XD. So can't threaten them with slavery when I'm trying to turn him into a slave!
Sure you can. While all slavery is bad, there are some forms that are worse than others. Even the suggestion that, without your protection, the elemental will be vulnerable to other spellcasters that aren't as nice as you is a threat.

[RoboEmperor]

Sure you can. While all slavery is bad, there are some forms that are worse than others. Even the suggestion that, without your protection, the elemental will be vulnerable to other spellcasters that aren't as nice as you is a threat.

So this is the order of events.

1. Call Elemental
2. Scare the beejezus out of it.
3. Once it's cowering in fear and friendly towards me, I then talk about servitude at which point it will say yes to it and agree to harsh unfriendly terms out of fear of me.

So no talking about slavery until it's completely scared!

[Jay R]

"Do you know what happened to the last big guy who thought I was too small to win?"
"No."
"Neither does anyone else."

[AmeVulpes]

So this is the order of events.

1. Call Elemental
2. Scare the beejezus out of it.
3. Once it's cowering in fear and friendly towards me, I then talk about servitude at which point it will say yes to it and agree to harsh unfriendly terms out of fear of me.

So no talking about slavery until it's completely scared!

Many DMs will agree that any terms under coercion are unreasonable, and,

Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to.
The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards.
Even Devils won't coerce one into signing a contract, because they know it's not valid.

I'm not sure how to make it work within those terms, but if those terms aren't in play and you already have it, say, helpless, threaten to coupe-de-grace it and keep calling elemental after elemental, slaughtering all of his friends until one of them has the sense to agree.

[RoboEmperor]

Many DMs will agree that any terms under coercion are unreasonable, and,

Even Devils won't coerce one into signing a contract, because they know it's not valid.

I'm not sure how to make it work within those terms, but if those terms aren't in play and you already have it, say, helpless, threaten to coupe-de-grace it and keep calling elemental after elemental, slaughtering all of his friends until one of them has the sense to agree.

I'm not gonna go into this debate in this thread :)

If you want to see my arguments, click the link in my signature.

[AmeVulpes]

I'm not gonna go into this debate in this thread :)

If you want to see my arguments, click the link in my signature.
Ah, I forgot that was you. All the same, I agree, no debates here. Just thought I'd bring up that DMs will debate you on it or shut it down, houserule or not. Nice thread, by the way.

[HouseRules]

Lawful Evil are known to twist things into their favor, which means coercion works.

Of course, we are in a modern world that views differently about slavery, but the censored censored censored. We cannot really discus them in the forum.

Fictional Religion in Fantasy that allowed slavery may exist in games.

[Geddy2112]

The old adage- "it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it is the size of the fight in the dog."

Being big and burly can help with threats of imminent physical violence, but intimidation covers this and more. Using Game of Thrones as an example, The Mountain is very physically intimating, but more people are arguably afraid of Cerci Lannister, the thin woman with no real martial abilities.