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View Full Version : The Prodigy: A Str. and Con. Based Spell Casting Class



Justdamohr
2007-09-27, 01:13 AM
All right here is a base spell casting class I devised. Its a lot more simple than the Spirit Warrior that I created earlier. It's somewhat drawn off the concept of the Spell Thief but more my perception of innate spell casters. If you have any suggestions, like always, I'd gladly like to hear them. Thank you for taking the time to read the Sages. Hope you enjoy. D. :smallbiggrin:

Prodigies

They are the exemplars of the divine and arcane arts, similarly to Mystic Theurges though Prodigies are in a class of their own for they possess a supernatural ability to observe, comprehend and emulate the casting arts without even studying a book or calling up a divine entity. Spell casters who encounter Prodigies quite often find themselves defeated by their own repertoire and warriors have discovered themselves victim to contradictory spells; at one moment they are encased within bars of force and the next struck dead by divine fire from the heavens. These variations have made Prodigies incomprehensible to not only the mere commoner but well studied scholars and those who have ever attempted to understand them have only suffered more pains than their worth. However what is known about Prodigies is that they are a most peculiar group and one to stay wary of, particularly for spell casters who seem to be the most prominent prey of this arising people.

Adventuring: Prodigies are by nature adventurers for the simple fact that their power is drawn from other people and therefore requires the necessity of encounters. In most cases, Prodigies tend to start fights, often with spell casters, ridiculing or badgering their opponents for the sake of having them strike them with power, only to then learn it and emulate it in response. They rarely ever keep to themselves, as doing so does not benefit them. They tend to enjoy working in parties especially those heavily endowed with both divine and arcane spell casters. The more variation, the more they learn, the more they learn the more powerful they become. When alone, Prodigies often seek out magical beasts for they possess gifts to which Prodigies can emulate as well; spell-like abilities. As rare stones and vast hordes of platinum are the valued prizes of rogues so to are spell-like abilities to Prodigies and there are very few who would sacrifice the chance in attaining one.

Alignment: Prodigies by nature are chaotic. They are a wild people who find the monotony of studying and books and the reliance on gods to be the mishaps and hindrances of spell casters. They value experiencing magic in the natural world, indulging in its freedom and in that state, mastering it. They believe magic is to be gained from others and by oral tradition, not from pages or from aloof entities. But for all their wildness, they do have some reservation as it is necessary for their survival. Since most of their power comes from others, they require a sense of moderation as to act irrationally on a constant basis would only result in their immediate demise. For the most part Sages are a selfish people, as they tend to act for their own reasons, sometimes with little regard to others. Naturally there are some who don’t intend this, and then others who do. The first tending to be chaotic good people and the latter, chaotic evil but for the most part, Sages are chaotic neutral, living for themselves and for the empowerment of their innate abilities.

Religion: Most Prodigies are followers of Fharlanghn for he is a neutral figure that embodies the universal ideals of adventuring and freedom, the passions of most Sages. Second to him is Obad-Hai, mainly because he is the embodiment of nature however Prodigies find his roots strictly in the divine arts rather limiting and therefore do not revere him as highly as Fharlanghn, although he is well respected amongst Prodigies and recognized equally. Although Olidammara would make most sense for Prodigies, he is in fact rarely followed because of his love for pointless gold and jewels; Prodigies prize magic and for this reason find him a trivial god, even though they understand his passion. There are some who follow Corellon, although their numbers are few as many Prodigies find him to be like most gods, an obnoxious representation of a race’s ideals, in this case the elves, and thus limiting; yet still he is good and chaotic in his own manner and therefore sometimes praised. For Prodigies who love to watch the world collapse, Erythnul is their god of choice; as the exemplar of brutality he perfectly represents the passions of Prodigies who only seek to learn from their opponents but brutally destroy them in the process as well.

Background and Races: The most common Prodigies tend to be Half-Orcs. Since they do not rely on intelligence nor on common sense, the ways of Prodigies matches perfectly with their natural abilities; combined with their physical strength and natural aggression, they are can be the most formidable of Prodigies, although Half-Elves match them equally as they are well known travelers and for the most part well liked by many and therefore have higher chances of being exposed to greater magic. Still the two of them are well matched. Second to them are in fact Halflings and Gnomes who are perfect exemplars of the Prodigies chaotic ways. They tend to be the most mischievous and cunning of Sages and quite often the most overlooked, which only makes their effectiveness all the more threatening. Elves have been known to be Prodigies although many cling so closely to their tomes and studies that few risk the venture beyond their arcane familiarity, still there are some who do so and find themselves equally content with their choice. Humans, despite their innate flexibility, tend not to be Prodigies because of the uncertainty of power; since Prodigies gain their abilities from others, their forced reliance deters humans who prefer having a steady source of power, either it be their own skill with a blade or on a god who they full heartedly believe in or in books and studies that have proven again and again to be effective.

Classes: The list is as follows, Druids and Sorcerers are the only two classes Prodigies fully enjoy being with because both rely on nature and their own inner power to unleash magic. They do not require the gods of Clerics or Paladins who are all to often boring with their religious missions, or confined to books as Wizards who are blind to the world around them, and they are not simple minded like Rogues who hunger solely for heavy objects or like Fighters who thirst for battle in hopes of proving something of themselves. Granted Prodigies fight similarly however it’s to gain power, not to show that they were able to handle ten goblins on their own. No Druids and Sorcerers are like Prodigies, powerful by their own means. Barbarians are their second favorite because they are chaotic kin; however Prodigies tend to stay away from them out of fear of their rage ability. Something about becoming a bloodthirsty monster doesn’t appeal to the general population of Prodigies. They also like Bards although they believe their reliance on singing to be their downfall. They usually find a quick punch to the throat to immobilize them and therefore make them useless. Monks are their least favorite for although they respect their power, Prodigies find them excruciatingly bland with their restrictive ways.

Game Rules:
Important Abilities
Strength: Attack Damage, DC of Spells and some class abilities.
Constitution: Hit Points and some class abilities.
Dexterity: AC
Intelligence: Skill points

Alignment: Any Non-Lawful
Hit Die: 1d6

Class Skills:
Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Hide (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Move Silently (Dex), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Spellcraft (Int)

Skill Points at 1st Level:(4 + Int. Mod.) X 4
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int. Modifier.

Weapons and Armor Proficiency:
All Prodigies are proficient with simple weapons and one martial weapon. They are proficient with no type of armor or shield as both prevents interferes with spell casting.


Prodigies
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+0|Innate Study|3|1|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+0|Tactical Strike|4|2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

3rd|
+1|
+3|
+1|
+1|Scholarly Bolster 1x/day|4|2|1|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

4th|
+2|
+4|
+1|
+1||4|3|2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

5th|
+2|
+4|
+1|
+1|Detect Magic|4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—|—|—

6th|
+3|
+5|
+2|
+2|Scholarly Bolster 2x/day|4|3|3|2|—|—|—|—|—|—

7th|
+3|
+5|
+2|
+2|Advanced Study|4|4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—|—

8th|
+4|
+6|
+2|
+2||4|4|3|3|2|—|—|—|—|—

9th|
+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|Scholarly Bolster 3x/day|4|4|4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—

10th|
+5|
+7|
+3|
+3| Learned Immunity, Hard Focus|4|4|4|3|3|2|—|—|—|—

11th|
+5|
+7|
+3|
+3| Savant Gift 5 |4|4|4|4|3|2|1|—|—|—

12th|
+6/+1|
+8|
+4|
+4|Scholarly Bolster 4x/day|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|—|—|—

13th|
+6/+1|
+8|
+4|
+4| |4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|—|—

14th|
+7/+2|
+9|
+4|
+4| Learned Immunity |4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|—|—

15th|
+7/+2|
+9|
+5|
+5|Scholarly Bolster 5x/day, Arcane Sight|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|—

16th|
+8/+3|
+10|
+5|
+5| |4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|—

17th|
+8/+3|
+10|
+5|
+5| Learned Immunity |4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

18th|
+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|Scholarly Bolster, Brain Overload|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

19th|
+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6||4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3

20th|
+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6| Savant’s Gift 10, Master Study|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4

[/table]

Spells Learned
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st|4|2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—
2nd|5|2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—
3rd|5|3|1|—|—|—|—|—|—|—
4th|6|3|2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—
5th|6|4|2|1|—|—|—|—|—|—
6th|7|4|3|2|—|—|—|—|—|—
7th|7|5|3|2|1|—|—|—|—|—
8th|8|5|4|3|2|—|—|—|—|—
9th|8|5|4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—
10th|9|6|5|4|3|2|—|—|—|—
11th|9|6|5|4|3|2|1|—|—|—
12th|10|7|6|5|4|3|2|—|—|—
13th|10|7|6|5|4|3|2|1|—|—
14th|10|8|7|6|5|4|3|2|—|—
15th|10|8|7|6|5|4|3|2|1|—
16th|10|9|8|7|6|5|4|3|2|—
17th|10|9|8|7|6|5|4|3|2|1
18th|10|9|8|7|6|5|4|3|2|1
19th|10|9|8|7|6|5|4|3|2|1
20th|10|9|8|7|6|5|4|3|2|1
[/table]

Spells: Prodigies cast spells like a sorcerer in that they do not prepare them and are limited to a list of spells known. However they cast spells per day similarly to that of a wizard although they cast both divine and arcane magic and therefore are not restricted to what types of spells they can learn. Their spells are fueled by their own body's physical power; their blood, bones, muscles, nerves and organs. It is by their physical body that they are able to manifest spells. For this reason, the DC of a Prodigy's spells are 10 + the Prodigy's Str. Bonus + the Spell’s Level. To cast a spell a Sage must have a Strength score equal to at least 10 + the spell’s level.

All Prodigies start off with four 0 level spells, one of which must be detect magic as it is the only reason why they attain more spells at this level, and two 1st level spells.
Innate Study: Prodigies learn spells through witnessing others casting them. They can attain spells one of two ways.

Observation: By readying a standard action, similar to counterspelling, a Sage may target a spell caster and wait till they cast a spell. When they do so, they must commit rounds equal to the amount it takes to cast the spell. They then must make a successful Spellcraft Check equal to the Spellcaster’s Level + the Spell’s Level + the Spellcaster's Mod. Should they succeed they gain that spell in their repertoire, although they cannot cast it until the following day. This method is the safer of the two.

Hand’s On: When a Prodigy uses Observation, they make take a -5 on the check. The player must announce this before making the spell craft check. Should they succeed, they gain that spell into their repertoire and can immediately use it without waiting to have it for the following day.

They can only gain spells equal to the highest spell they can learn. With this ability, Prodigies are also able to swap out spells for new ones at any time. For instance if they have learned their maximum amount of 4th level spells but encounter one they want, they can drop one spell they know for the new one.

As casting a spell should the character be attacked during either Observation or Hand's On, they must make a Concentration Check equal to 10 + the Damage taken successfully in order to maintain focus.

Spells that purchased from willing spell casters who cast spells for pay or granted by an ally automatically gives the Prodigy a + 2 circumstance bonus on their Spell Craft check.

Tactical Strike: At 2nd level Prodigies may use their physical strength to empower spells that do damage. Whenever a Prodigy uses an offensive spell that causes either lethal or sub dual damage they may add their Str. Bonus to the amount of damage caused. They can achieve this 3 + Con Bonus per day.

Scholarly Bolster: By 3rd level, a Prodigy may add their Spellcraft Skill Bonus to roll in overcoming Spell Resistance 1x/day. At 6th it becomes 2x.day, at 9th 3xday, at 12th 4x/day, at 15th, 5x/day and finally at 18th 6x/day.

Detect Magic: By 5th level Prodigies are gain the natural talent to detect magic at will.

Advanced Study: By 7th level, Prodigy's are no longer limited to learning mere spells but those altered by magical feats. Should a Prodigy successfully study and learn a spell affected by a metamagic feat, they can forgo learning the spell and instead, take the feat. The feat can then be applied to one learned spell without incurring the spell slot penalty for rounds equal to their Strength Bonus. They can only do this an amount of times per day equal to their Strength Bonus.

A Prodigy that attempts to learn the metamagically enhanced spell with Hand's On gains the feat for rounds equal to 2x their Strength bonus however should they fail, they suffer lethal damage equal to the Character's HD + the DC of the spell automatically and are stunned for 1d4 rounds.

Learned Immunity: At 10th level Prodigies gain immunity to one spell in their repertoire, however the spell must have possessed for no less than 5 levels. They gain additional immunities at 14th, 17th and 20th level.

Hard Focus: At 10th Level Prodigies can increase the power of their learned spells by spending rounds to gather energy. In doing so, they bolster the DC of their spells against their opponents by 1 point for each round they devote to focusing. Afterward the DC of all their spells is increased by this number for minutes equal to the amount of rounds they gathered their energies + their Con. Bonus. However afterward, they suffer from fatigue for hours equal to the amount of rounds they invested. This fatigue cannot be cured by magical means only by rest and relaxation.

Arcane Sight: By 15th level a Prodigy's sight becomes more keen. They gain Arcane sight at will. They cast it as a spell caster to Half their level. See page 201 of PHB.

Savants Gift: Because of their continued exposure to magic, by 11th level Prodigies gain Spell Resistance equal to their caster level + their Con. Bonus + 5. This increases again to + 10 at 20th level.

Brain Overload: Also at 18th level, Prodigy's focus becomes stronger. Instead of increasing the DC of all spells 1 point per round, it becomes 2 points for each round dedicated to focusing. Afterward the DC of all their spells is increased for rounds equal to the amount of rounds they focused + their Con. Bonus. However afterward they suffer from exhaustion for hours equal to the amount of rounds they invested. This exhaustion cannot be cured by magical means, only by rest and relaxation and unlike normal exhaustion; the Prodigy does not become fatigued after one hour but rather remains exhausted throughout the entire time.

Master Study: Finally at 20th level, Prodigies are so in tune with magic, they gain the ability to study and learn spell-like abilities. The spell-like ability must be an actual spell for this to work. If the Sage successfully observes it, they can add the spell-like ability to their repertoire and treat it as such although Prodigies must still pay XP for spells that require them. The amount of spell-like abilities a sage can retain is also equal to their strength bonus. Like with Innate Study, Prodigies may swap out spell-like abilities for new ones.

A Prodigy that attempts to learn the spell like ability with Hand's On and fails suffers 1d4 Temporary Con Damage for each 3 Spell Levels. So a spell with a spell level of 3 or lower causes 1d4 damage, a spell with a spell level of 6 or lower causes 2d4 Con damage and finally a spell that has a spell level of 9 or lower causes 3d4 Con damage.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-27, 02:32 AM
Fluff-wise, when I think of a sage I see an intelligent, brains-over-brawn adventurer, possibly an old one who knows-it-all. It strikes me as odd that a sage would (1) find attack damage important, (2) have good hit points, (3) be restricted to chaotic alignment, and (4) have a good fort save. I'd suggest dropping the "strength" line, moving to d6 hit points, no alignment restriction, and a good will save instead.

UMD should probably not be a class skill for a primary caster character. I find the skill list rather unfocused; it has stealth and perception [/i]and[/i] arcanist and social skills. I'd suggest dropping two of the four categories, and improving the other two.

The concept of absorbing and re-casting other spells (Blue Magic?) is interesting and solid. However, Tactical Strike doesn't really fit into this; the character is a caster, not a meleeist.

Advanced Study is way overpowered. It allows one to essentially use every metamagic without paying the level adjustment, which is even more cheesy than the Initiate of the Sevenfold Gouda. Likewise, Master Study should not automatically Still and Silent the relevant ability. The Spell Resistance is likewise overdone; it's a good concept but ending up at 35 is a little too much.

Finally, the character is a little too SAD, since every single thing he does depends on constitution. It needs to do more with its mental stats; a sorcerer needs Cha and Con because his hit points are abysmal otherwise, this character needs Con and more Con, and already has solid hit points. This class effectively upstages the Sorcerer in every single area, and since the sorc is already a top-tier class that's probably not such a stellar idea.

Justdamohr
2007-09-27, 02:49 PM
Fluff-wise, when I think of a sage I see an intelligent, brains-over-brawn adventurer, possibly an old one who knows-it-all. It strikes me as odd that a sage would (1) find attack damage important, (2) have good hit points, (3) be restricted to chaotic alignment, and (4) have a good fort save. I'd suggest dropping the "strength" line, moving to d6 hit points, no alignment restriction, and a good will save instead.

Firstly, thank you for reviewing the class at all, I appreciate your advice as I found much of it useful.

Now to answer the fluff-wise comment: you thought exactly what I wanted you to think. The whole intention of me naming them Sages plays into the fact that as I stated in the first paragraph, Sages are an anomaly....they are incomprehensible to not only the mere commoner but the studied scholar.

There are those who would interpret sages as you do, however they identify themselves as sages because as the Webster dictionary states Sage: a man venerated for his wisdom, judgment and experience.

The whole premise of Sages is that they gain power through experiencing it from others and observing the experience of others. Magical is a natural occurrence and therefore can only be attained through experience. I believe I stated that in the above paragraph as well. If that wasn't clear, I apologize.

I agree with dropping their hit die down to 1d6 points.


UMD should probably not be a class skill for a primary caster character. I find the skill list rather unfocused; it has stealth and perception [/i]and[/i] arcanist and social skills. I'd suggest dropping two of the four categories, and improving the other two.

I agree with your observations and hence changed the skill list to make more sense.


The concept of absorbing and re-casting other spells (Blue Magic?) is interesting and solid. However, Tactical Strike doesn't really fit into this; the character is a caster, not a meleeist.

Totally agree, totally agree. I put that in initially because I feared since they were heavily dependent on others for magic, I thought it wise to provide them something melee to counter balance their weakness in that regard. However, instead I made it apply to their magics which would make more sense anyway.


Advanced Study is way overpowered. It allows one to essentially use every metamagic without paying the level adjustment, which is even more cheesy than the Initiate of the Sevenfold Gouda.

I suppose the way you read the ability is in part due to my lack of clarification.

When a Sage absorbs a spell that has a metamagic feat on it, they absorb that spell with the metamagic feat as well. Having done so they can cast that SPECIFIC spell with that SPECIFIC feat without having to pay the slot penalty. Now I don't know if that's how you read it or maybe you understood it to be something else, either way, I agree it is way over powered because essentially at higher levels where spell casters are most likely going to cast metamagically enhanced spells all the time, Sages would be WAY too powerful if they absorbed every single one of those spells. To counter this I limited the amount of spells they could absorb with metamagic feats equal to their Con bonus.


Likewise, Master Study should not automatically Still and Silent the relevant ability.

Um...that's what spell-like abilities are though. They do not have verbal, material or somatic components. If you read page 316 of MM I 3.5 third paragraph down under Spell-Like Abilities it tells the reader automatically that "spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and have no verbal, somatic, materials, focus or XP components.)" That is why Sages prize them so much. However I do believe that this is also overpowered. So I have limited the amount they can absorb again to their Con Bonus and I believe I'm going to add a subdual damage effect that should they fail to absorb it they suffer the creatures level + the DC of the ability in subdual damage automatically.


The Spell Resistance is likewise overdone; it's a good concept but ending up at 35 is a little too much.

I agree because essentially what that means is that a spell caster would require at least a 15 or above on a die roll to affect them. So I'll fix that.


Finally, the character is a little too SAD, since every single thing he does depends on constitution. It needs to do more with its mental stats; a sorcerer needs Cha and Con because his hit points are abysmal otherwise, this character needs Con and more Con, and already has solid hit points. This class effectively upstages the Sorcerer in every single area, and since the sorc is already a top-tier class that's probably not such a stellar idea.

I agree about the SAD aspect of the Sages therefore changed it to give it a little more flexibility. When you say "It needs to do more with its mental stats;" I'm not quite sure what you mean but if you're implying the Sage needs more emphasis on Cha, Int or Wis, that would contradict everything the concept of Sages. As I said before their power is drawn from their body, not their mind, not their will, or, for those who this makes sense for, their personalities.

As for the Sorcerer class, I wasn't even considering them but I suppose for those who cling whole heartedly to it, I guess Sages may pose a threat although I can't see how anything can match a sorcerer being able to cast up to 54 spells per day by 20th level including those attained by their Cha Bonus.

Granted they are limited in what spells they can cast but so too are Sages, even more so because they know more spells but cast them fewer times per day plus they need to have a spell caster around to actually learn a spell.

And besides with sorcerers or wizards even, it only takes a few spells to dominate a field and any smart player with some form of tactic only needs a few spells. (As my friend would say, Greater Invisibility, Fly and Fireball...and if you want to push it, a maximized fireball.) So instead of casting fireball 42 times by 20th level, they cast it only 30 times and bam they can kill everyone on the field. So sure they are a top-tier class but that's because at higher levels, they're way broken.

Anyway thank you again for your review, I hope this finds you well. :smallbiggrin:

Ozymandias
2007-09-27, 06:25 PM
Now to answer the fluff-wise comment: you thought exactly what I wanted you to think. The whole intention of me naming them Sages plays into the fact that as I stated in the first paragraph, Sages are an anomaly....they are incomprehensible to not only the mere commoner but the studied scholar.

There are those who would interpret sages as you do, however they identify themselves as sages because as the Webster dictionary states Sage: a man venerated for his wisdom, judgment and experience.

The whole premise of Sages is that they gain power through experiencing it from others and observing the experience of others. Magical is a natural occurrence and therefore can only be attained through experience. I believe I stated that in the above paragraph as well. If that wasn't clear, I apologize.

I agree with dropping their hit die down to 1d6 points.


I don't see how you addressed his/her comment at all; none of the points he/she raised have anything to do with gaining magic power from experience. This is fine, and rather interesting. Tying on a fairly arbitrary alignment restriction, inconsistent emphasis (d8 and strength? huh?), et al (a "sage" class that does not use wisdom? 'Sagacity' is its synonym!) is less so, at least in my reckoning.

Edit: Ultimately, I really just think you should rename the class, as 'sage' is more or less synonymous with wisdom. I think I sort of missed the point in the first read-through. Regardless, I think the alignment thing is stupid (then again, I think pretty much all alignment restrictions are).

Justdamohr
2007-09-27, 06:41 PM
Edit: Ultimately, I really just think you should rename the class, as 'sage' is more or less synonymous with wisdom. I think I sort of missed the point in the first read-through. Regardless, I think the alignment thing is stupid (then again, I think pretty much all alignment restrictions are).

Well I'm glad you have an opinion, that's great. The one thing I will take from this comment however is your right, the alignment thing is stupid. I should have made it more flexible like the bard which says any non-lawful. Thank you for helping me realize that. It makes the class more accessible to more players and that's never a bad thing. Hope all is well. :smallbiggrin:

JackMage666
2007-09-27, 06:43 PM
Sage: a man venerated for his wisdom, judgment and experience.

I changed the emphasis. It needs some focus in Wisdom, like good Will Saves and Wis dependent casting... Sorry, but the idea of using brute strength and a healthy body to cast spells doesn't really make all that much sense... D&D is rather linear - Str is Bodily Power, Dex is Agility, Con is Health, Int is Brains, Wis is Perceptions, and Cha is that thing that makes you stand out.

Justdamohr
2007-09-27, 07:02 PM
I changed the emphasis. It needs some focus in Wisdom, like good Will Saves and Wis dependent casting... Sorry, but the idea of using brute strength and a healthy body to cast spells doesn't really make all that much sense... D&D is rather linear - Str is Bodily Power, Dex is Agility, Con is Health, Int is Brains, Wis is Perceptions, and Cha is that thing that makes you stand out.

Okay it does if you think of it this way. Sages produce their own magical power. Its a reserve you might say. By observing others and mimicking their gestures, they gain the ability to convert that power into spells. They are the source of their own energy; their flesh, their blood, their marrow, their nerves, their cells, everything in their body serves as the source of their power. Unlike the typical spell casters of D and D, they do not rely on will, or intelligence to cast their spells but rather on innate powers that are tied into their genetics if you want to become scientific about it. Their will and intelligence has nothing to do with it, it has to do all with their body and health of it.

I'm not sure if that's made clear but that's why Sages can cast spells. It makes sense then that the emphasis of their power lay in their Strength and Constitution since they both represent the source of their power. I mean personally, I'd rather have their DC's focus on Con but as the person rightly noted two posts above, it makes them a SAD class which I don't want. Understand? :smallsmile:

And if you want to get technical about it, how does "standing out," as you state, grant a Sorcerer the power to cast spells? How does one's personality produce magic?

And even if it could, don't personalities which are tied in with emotions shift? Shouldn't there be some kind of effect on a Sorcerer's spells when they're depressed or maybe angry, maybe negatives or pluses to DC's? Possibly, but there aren't and why because this is D and D. Anything goes and the suspension of disbelief is pulled to the maximum thus standing out in a crowd can allow you to cast magic, just as a person's physical strength and health can.

But thank you for your comment. :smallbiggrin:

Nu
2007-09-27, 07:14 PM
I still think Advanced Study is pretty overpowered. Hey, you see a wizard cast a Quickened True Strike once, and now suddenly you have as many "never-miss ray spells" as you have level 1 spell slots? And that's one of the lesser abuses of it...team up with a wizard or sorceror who has a few metamagic feats, burn a few "free" days learning metamagic'd spells, and you suddenly have an array of spells that are very much overpowered for their spell slots, pretty much limited only by your STR bonus, which you are going to pour into anyway since it's the core of your spellcasting. Just my 2cp.

Justdamohr
2007-09-27, 07:17 PM
I still think Advanced Study is pretty overpowered. Hey, you see a wizard cast a Quickened True Strike once, and now suddenly you have as many "never-miss ray spells" as you have level 1 spell slots? And that's one of the lesser abuses of it...team up with a wizard or sorceror who has a few metamagic feats, burn a few "free" days learning metamagic'd spells, and you suddenly have an array of spells that are very much overpowered for their spell slots, pretty much limited only by your STR bonus, which you are going to pour into anyway since it's the core of your spellcasting. Just my 2cp.

No those are wonderful 2 copper pieces. I thank you so much, I mean this is the kind of critique I need. What would you suggest then I could do to make it less overpowered? Should it be one spell they can do that with? Same as with the Spell-like abilities? I would love to hear your opinion on the matter. :smallbiggrin:

Jack_Simth
2007-09-27, 07:34 PM
In no particular order...

Balance:
Spell Access of the Wizard + Cleric + Druid + ... with spontaneous casting, and (if there is a friendly spellcaster in the party) the ability to swap out all spells known every day (potentially, anyway).
Plus he makes a decent skillmonkey (stealth, senses, and social skills? Tasty) with four+Int Mod skill points per level.
Attribute Dependancy:
Strength based-spellcasting, but the class only needs a little constitution (it powers relatively minor abilities). Likewise, they only need a little Dex, as they get light armor (which becomes medium with one non-core feat). Also needs some intelligence (to learn by observation). The class has one Prime stat, and three minor stats. Not too bad, not too good.

The class is a bit overpowered on the above - full spellcasting (with the ability to cherry-pick spells off any list ... if you can hire a demonstration), a good skill set and skill points, plus armor? A little over the top. Plus class features. At least one good aspect, preferably two, needs to go away.

Specific class features:
Talented Scholar:
If I'm playing this class, each instance of it is going to an extra "spell" known, as this class is just slightly short of spells known at high levels.

Tactical Strike:
Useful when he gets it (and damage is useful), not so useful five levels after that (when save or spells rule the field). Good second-level ability.

Detect Magic and Arcane Sight:
These are more useful than you might think. I would suggest moving both up about five levels or so.

Master Study:
How do you go about determining the spell level of a spell-like ability that doesn't have an exact cognate and doesn't specify a spell level?
DON'T, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, LET THIS GUY WATCH A CRITTER WITH AN OVERLY STRONG SPELL-LIKE ABILITY. There's a couple of things that get Wish... and spell-like abilities don't cost XP by default. This will break the game if you're not careful. I suggest amending this to close that particular loophole.

Hands-on learning:
Any skill check involved?
What about spells for which there is no save (e.g., Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, Dispel Magic, Enervation, and so on)?

Observation:
How do you go about learning spells with longer casting times?

Spell Resistance: Slightly clunky, but usable (SR is more often a bane than a boon for players anyway, due to the standard-action lowering to accept incoming healing). Negates the need for a save a lot of times, though, against things that he can learn hands-on; how does this impact hands-on learning?

Party Synergy
This guy likes friendly casters. A lot. Especially the prepared variety that get to know every spell there is.

Justdamohr
2007-09-27, 08:08 PM
In no particular order...

Balance:
Spell Access of the Wizard + Cleric + Druid + ... with spontaneous casting, and (if there is a friendly spellcaster in the party) the ability to swap out all spells known every day (potentially, anyway).
Plus he makes a decent skillmonkey (stealth, senses, and social skills? Tasty) with four+Int Mod skill points per level.
Attribute Dependancy:
Strength based-spellcasting, but the class only needs a little constitution (it powers relatively minor abilities). Likewise, they only need a little Dex, as they get light armor (which becomes medium with one non-core feat). Also needs some intelligence (to learn by observation). The class has one Prime stat, and three minor stats. Not too bad, not too good.

The class is a bit overpowered on the above - full spellcasting (with the ability to cherry-pick spells off any list ... if you can hire a demonstration), a good skill set and skill points, plus armor? A little over the top. Plus class features. At least one good aspect, preferably two, needs to go away.

Firstly WONDERFUL CRITIQUE....many of these things I didn't even think of. THANK YOU! This is really helpful.

Okay, I think what I'll do to help is lower the hit die down to 1d4, drop the armor.


Specific class features:
Talented Scholar:
If I'm playing this class, each instance of it is going to an extra "spell" known, as this class is just slightly short of spells known at high levels.

Drop the Talented Scholar because if anything those are feats they can gain on their own. If the character really wants to learn more spells or gain them, that should really be up to the player's choice.


Detect Magic and Arcane Sight:
These are more useful than you might think. I would suggest moving both up about five levels or so.

Will do. Totally makes sense, especially with Arcane Sight.They essentially can hunt down spellcasters for their spells with that ability.


Master Study:
How do you go about determining the spell level of a spell-like ability that doesn't have an exact cognate and doesn't specify a spell level?
DON'T, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, LET THIS GUY WATCH A CRITTER WITH AN OVERLY STRONG SPELL-LIKE ABILITY. There's a couple of things that get Wish... and spell-like abilities don't cost XP by default. This will break the game if you're not careful. I suggest amending this to close that particular loophole.

I can limit Sage's to attaining only spell-like abilities that are actual spells, i.e. a Drow's dancing lights or a gold dragon's polymorph. Since these are defined spells that should make it easier to determine spell level and it still has its perks of not requiring any verbal, somatic, material or focus components.

For spells that require XP, I will make it that they still require XP. Reason is, if the Sages draw from their own body, it would make sense that the use of potent spells such as wish would draw from their power and weaken them anyway. So XP will still apply.


Hands-on learning:
Any skill check involved?
What about spells for which there is no save (e.g., Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, Dispel Magic, Enervation, and so on)? [/spell]

Observation:
How do you go about learning spells with longer casting times?

This is how I will adjust it.

Sages must observe spellcasters equal to the amount of rounds its required to cast the spell. They must make a spellcraft check DC of the Spell Caster's Level + the Level of the Spell.

For Hands On
Rather than incurring a -4 on the save, they will incur a -4 on the Spellcraft Check.

Party Synergy
This guy likes friendly casters. A lot. Especially the prepared variety that get to know every spell there is.[/QUOTE]

Yeah he/she/it does. :smallbiggrin: BUT THANK YOU SOOOOOOOOOO MUCH. I will get right to the changes. Hope this post finds you well. :smallsmile:

Justdamohr
2007-09-27, 08:23 PM
I still think Advanced Study is pretty overpowered. Hey, you see a wizard cast a Quickened True Strike once, and now suddenly you have as many "never-miss ray spells" as you have level 1 spell slots? And that's one of the lesser abuses of it...team up with a wizard or sorceror who has a few metamagic feats, burn a few "free" days learning metamagic'd spells, and you suddenly have an array of spells that are very much overpowered for their spell slots, pretty much limited only by your STR bonus, which you are going to pour into anyway since it's the core of your spellcasting. Just my 2cp.

Edit: All right so this is what I did for Advanced Study.

Should a Sage successfully study and learn a spell affected by a metamagic feat, they can forgo learning the spell and instead, take the feat. By taking the feat they can apply it to one of their own spells without incurring the spell slot penalty. However Sage's can only possess an amount of metamagically enhanced spells equal to their Strength Bonus. Like with Innate Study, Sages may swap out metamagically enhanced spells for new ones.

So instead they gain a free feat without penalty and are limited to only the spells they know, so the likelihood of a Quickened True Strike is more so limited.

What do you think?

Eighth_Seraph
2007-09-27, 08:26 PM
I'm not even going into the crunch of this thing, since Jack_Smith and others seem to have that covered. Instead, I'll touch on the major issues that others have already mentioned in regards to flavor. The name does not, in any way, reflect the class. The word "sage" actually comes from a root meaning keenness of perception or soundness of judgement. This leaves you with three choices, Justdamohr.

1) Change the name to something that reflects strength and deeper uses of it. Lots of opportunities to show your poetic side here. (Recommended)
2) Alter the class to better reflect the wisdom and judgement that is the very essence of a sage. Probably not worth the effort, and you have good ideas here that would go down the drain here if you changed the mechanics to suit the name.
3) Continue to ignore calls for a change of name. You've been brushing off people who mention this to you, but it's important for you to realize that flavor and mechanics need to be strongly interwoven to make a class successful.

This is your class, do with it what you will; but roleplay will be very strongly inhibited by use of the name alone. The word sage is indeed synonymous with wisdom, even in today's vocabulary. I'm still having trouble not seeing a member of this class as a frail old man in white robes with a beard down to his waist. You listen well to critiques, Justdamohr, don't ruin it on such a small, crucial point.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-27, 08:27 PM
Going to have to chime in and agree that the class is overpowered.

Advanced Study needs to be nerfed. Free metamagic is gamebreaking. I'd suggest just making it that they can learn the metamagiced version of the spell, at the appropriate level and cast it without adding to the casting time of the spell (as a sorcerer has to without the PHB2 variant). Thus, they could learn a Quickened True Strike, but it would take up a 5th level slot and although they could cast it quickened they could not cast a normal true strike.

Hard focus and Brain Overload are also too powerful for the level they are awarded. These are AWESOME abilities. I'd suggest giving Hard Focus at 11th and Brain Overload at 19th.

Master Study is also insanely powerful. That should be the capstone ability of the class at 20th level. I'd also suggest, since it's unclear from the text, that SLA learned be learned as a spell and take up the space of the spell in it's appropriate slot and cost a spell slot to cast. That should fix problems with things like 'wish' since a full spell caster would have access to it at that stage anyway. There is still the xp issue, but I think a good balance for that, rather than having it cost xp and needing to limit it to spells only, would be instead to make using this ability dangerous.

Hence, make the hands on Con damage, rather than just regular damage and base it off ECL of the casting creature. So, if you try to hands on learn Blasphemy from a balor, and fail, chances are you will simply die.

Other notes, this is a casting class, albeit one that relies upon stregnth. As such, unlike combat focused partical casters (like duskblades) there really isn't much reason for it to wear armor. I'd strike that. Also, I don't see any reason given the class features for move silently, intimidate, hide and gather information to be on it's class list.

All and all, I think this concept might be better suited to two different classes. A base class that is more of a martial caster relying on stregnth and a Sorcerer PRC that has the swapping spells and learning spells from other casters ability.

Justdamohr
2007-09-27, 09:07 PM
I'm not even going into the crunch of this thing, since Jack_Smith and others seem to have that covered. Instead, I'll touch on the major issues that others have already mentioned in regards to flavor. The name does not, in any way, reflect the class. The word "sage" actually comes from a root meaning keenness of perception or soundness of judgement. This leaves you with three choices, Justdamohr.

1) Change the name to something that reflects strength and deeper uses of it. Lots of opportunities to show your poetic side here. (Recommended)
2) Alter the class to better reflect the wisdom and judgement that is the very essence of a sage. Probably not worth the effort, and you have good ideas here that would go down the drain here if you changed the mechanics to suit the name.
3) Continue to ignore calls for a change of name. You've been brushing off people who mention this to you, but it's important for you to realize that flavor and mechanics need to be strongly interwoven to make a class successful.

This is your class, do with it what you will; but roleplay will be very strongly inhibited by use of the name alone. The word sage is indeed synonymous with wisdom, even in today's vocabulary. I'm still having trouble not seeing a member of this class as a frail old man in white robes with a beard down to his waist. You listen well to critiques, Justdamohr, don't ruin it on such a small, crucial point.

And I suppose a young person can't exhibit keenness of perception or soundness of judgement? Its unfortunate that it appears there is a set visual interpretation of sage; I don't know where this old man came from considering in the definitions granted it says man but doesn't designate an age. I attempted to make it a general uni-sex class but I suppose the male dominant interpretation must win considering we must follow definitions to a T in a game where people can manifest objects without causing a nuclear explosion; considering creating objects out of thin air would require the separation and assimilation of atoms, if you want to get technical about it.

Sage in my definition, is yes in fact someone who is wise but not necessarily limited to age. Wisdom is not in part something a class can exhibit, it is something that must be role played. If you are a class that is dependent on others to gain power, you must be wise on how you play for the simple fact of one's own survival. Furthermore, this class would be more considered a sage because of their continued exposure to various forms of magic which they need to witness and experience in order to attain, something most likely other classes aren't.

But since wisdom has been pigeonholed into things such as Will Saves apparently, although how common sense can bolster my ability to resist an enchantment escapes me, I will have to change the name of the class for the simple desire to avoid having to deal with further arguments over something as so trivial as representation of a word in a class. Rather than making it a technical aspect of the class, I left it more to the players discretion to play the class as such. Anyway I will have to find a new name.

From now can all comments PLEASE stick to the mechanics of the class rather than my artistic choices. Thank you.

Justdamohr
2007-09-27, 09:19 PM
Going to have to chime in and agree that the class is overpowered.

Advanced Study needs to be nerfed. Free metamagic is gamebreaking. I'd suggest just making it that they can learn the metamagiced version of the spell, at the appropriate level and cast it without adding to the casting time of the spell (as a sorcerer has to without the PHB2 variant). Thus, they could learn a Quickened True Strike, but it would take up a 5th level slot and although they could cast it quickened they could not cast a normal true strike.

Rather than doing that, how about, they can forgo taking the spell and for the next rounds equal to their Con Bonus, they can use the feat on one designated spell of Choice. After which, the feat fades and their spells go back to normal. They can only do this an amount of times per day equal to their Con Bonus?


Hard focus and Brain Overload are also too powerful for the level they are awarded. These are AWESOME abilities. I'd suggest giving Hard Focus at 11th and Brain Overload at 19th.

I'll raise them, though to 11th and 19th, I'll debate, maybe something like 10th and 18th but I will change it certainly.


Master Study is also insanely powerful. That should be the capstone ability of the class at 20th level. I'd also suggest, since it's unclear from the text, that SLA learned be learned as a spell and take up the space of the spell in it's appropriate slot and cost a spell slot to cast. That should fix problems with things like 'wish' since a full spell caster would have access to it at that stage anyway. There is still the xp issue, but I think a good balance for that, rather than having it cost xp and needing to limit it to spells only, would be instead to make using this ability dangerous.

Hence, make the hands on Con damage, rather than just regular damage and base it off ECL of the casting creature. So, if you try to hands on learn Blasphemy from a balor, and fail, chances are you will simply die.

I agree with Master Study having to be placed at 20th, however about the ECL and Con damage....I think the Con damage is a good idea, at least temporary con damage. The ECL, this class is already limited in its ability to spell cast and gain spells. To now go ahead and kill it when it finally gains something that it finds beneficial I think would be very, very anti-climatic at 20th level. The Con Damage is a really good idea though.


Other notes, this is a casting class, albeit one that relies upon stregnth. As such, unlike combat focused partical casters (like duskblades) there really isn't much reason for it to wear armor. I'd strike that. Also, I don't see any reason given the class features for move silently, intimidate, hide and gather information to be on it's class list.

The armor is gone. As for the skills, hide and move silently are essential for studying since most likely they might not have spells like Invisibility, hide and move silently can be beneficial to them in regards to observing spell casters in secret. Intimidate makes very little sense it will go.

THANKS FOR ALL YOUR INPUT. :smallbiggrin: