Convincing or conditioning players to use comsumables (and a bit of a rant)

[AmeVulpes]

I've been with the same three players (not that I can get them all in the same room) for about five years. We've done a few runs in 5e, and tried some other more obscure systems, but more than 90% of our time together has been in 3.5e.

In all of this time, I've never been able to convince them to keep consumables on hand.

A potion of invisibility? Gets sold immediately.

A flask of Alchemist's fire? Probably gone, unless they're expecting to fight a troll or white wyrmling etc soon.

A potion of cure moderate wounds? Absolutely always sold immediately.

Same story with poisons, wands, scrolls, and non-replenishing charge items.

And trying to get them to buy consumables? I've even tried having 25% off sales in shops and whatnot, no bites. They'd rather put the money toward permanently enhanced items, at their own cost in the interim, and be rid of the inventory weight sooner than later. They even use Survival checks and travel slower rather than buy food.

Yes, it does bite them. They would rather recover health with natural healing than hire a town cleric to cast a CMW, buy a pot, or what have you. Even in the wilderness. They'll be health-down for days with all the problems that implies, and be upset that their only way out is to buy short-term benefit consumable items.

So, this thread is for you to share your tactics and stories related to getting your players to actually purchase, or at the very least not sell off, useful consumables. Oh, and actually using them.

[Eldariel]

If you really want to teach the value of consumables to the PCs, have NPCs, both hostile and friendly, use them and eventually just have them drill in, in character, how much more effective they are at doing any given job (and how many jobs they can do) in spite of being dirt poor compared to the PCs. I had a bunch of level 4 Doom Fist Monks in RHoD give a level 8 party serious trouble simply thanks to Potions of Enlarge Person, Invisible Fist, cramped quarters and Improved Trip. Alchemist's Fires are a scary weapon in the hand of Rogues but also otherwise poorly armed characters such as Wizards and Druids. And that's without thinking about all the lateral solutions. A door the party just can't open? Acid penetrates hardness and can corrode the hinges or the lock. You can include them as parts of puzzle, perhaps with some overt tips such as a previous door (in an abandoned alchemists' laboratory or something) being somewhat corroded over time and being thus easy to force open while the next one is still standing, but lo, a box of Acid bottles is nearby. Perhaps they'd take the hint, particularly if they have a helpful NPC around who, next time they run into a door/wall/box/whatever they can't open, helpfully points out how easy it was with Acid in that lab.

Enemy riders with Acid Flasks are a good way to teach the PCs how efficient they are, particularly a bit higher up where the Touch Attack-part is huge. Hard to force riders into melee and the splash damage and touch attack make Flasks very effective. Also, as said, Wizards who run out of spells can do surprisingly much with the 2d6+AOE per round. A level 2 Sorcerer with Mage Armor and Scroll of Alter Self can be nigh' untouchable to mundane tactics; or anyone with a couple of Potions (Potion of Invisibility, buff up, come at the PCs).


Show them the hunter with Drow Poison on every arrow, how enemies might not be taking a lot of damage but end up just falling over regardless. Something like Goblin Archers are almost completely harmless normally (1d4 damage) but give them few doses of poison (that they've presumably crafted themselves to make it affordable) and they are quite scary; a bunch of Fort-saves each round frightens anyone.

[AmeVulpes]

Enemy riders with Acid Flasks are a good way to teach the PCs how efficient they are, particularly a bit higher up where the Touch Attack-part is huge. Hard to force riders into melee and the splash damage and touch attack make Flasks very effective. Also, as said, Wizards who run out of spells can do surprisingly much with the 2d6+AOE per round. A level 2 Sorcerer with Mage Armor and Scroll of Alter Self can be nigh' untouchable to mundane tactics; or anyone with a couple of Potions (Potion of Invisibility, buff up, come at the PCs).


Show them the hunter with Drow Poison on every arrow, how enemies might not be taking a lot of damage but end up just falling over regardless. Something like Goblin Archers are almost completely harmless normally (1d4 damage) but give them few doses of poison (that they've presumably crafted themselves to make it affordable) and they are quite scary; a bunch of Fort-saves each round frightens anyone.

You bring up some interesting ways to go about this. I've typically never really given NPCs many useful one-off items, aside from the occasional potion of CSW on a higher-level class-leveled NPC. I think I will do some showing in the near future. I also somewhat like the idea of sending in some pathetic CR enemies armed with poisons unusual for them. I like it.

*2d6? The only acid vial I see deals 1d6, but I may be missing something.

[Eldariel]

You bring up some interesting ways to go about this. I've typically never really given NPCs many useful one-off items, aside from the occasional potion of CSW on a higher-level class-leveled NPC. I think I will do some showing in the near future. I also somewhat like the idea of sending in some pathetic CR enemies armed with poisons unusual for them. I like it.

*2d6? The only acid vial I see deals 1d6, but I may be missing something.

Alchemist's Fire is 1d6 the turn it hits and another 1d6 if the enemy doesn't put the fire out, which is a waste of an action and a check (generally worse than taking normal action) putting it at 2d6 plus splash much of the time. Acid is only 1d6, yes, but of course more rarely resisted.

[zlefin]

I've been with the same three players (not that I can get them all in the same room) for about five years. We've done a few runs in 5e, and tried some other more obscure systems, but more than 90% of our time together has been in 3.5e.

In all of this time, I've never been able to convince them to keep consumables on hand.

A potion of invisibility? Gets sold immediately.

A flask of Alchemist's fire? Probably gone, unless they're expecting to fight a troll or white wyrmling etc soon.

A potion of cure moderate wounds? Absolutely always sold immediately.

Same story with poisons, wands, scrolls, and non-replenishing charge items.

And trying to get them to buy consumables? I've even tried having 25% off sales in shops and whatnot, no bites. They'd rather put the money toward permanently enhanced items, at their own cost in the interim, and be rid of the inventory weight sooner than later. They even use Survival checks and travel slower rather than buy food.

Yes, it does bite them. They would rather recover health with natural healing than hire a town cleric to cast a CMW, buy a pot, or what have you. Even in the wilderness. They'll be health-down for days with all the problems that implies, and be upset that their only way out is to buy short-term benefit consumable items.

So, this thread is for you to share your tactics and stories related to getting your players to actually purchase, or at the very least not sell off, useful consumables. Oh, and actually using them.

your players might dislike being forced/pressured into using consumables.
for some people with various conditions (in my case some OCD and related stuff), using purchased consumables can be mentally unpleasant; (depending on the situation and the costs involved)
so it'd be important to find out why they're not using consumables, and whether they'd be amenable to learning to use them more.

[AmeVulpes]

your players might dislike being forced/pressured into using consumables.
for some people with various conditions (in my case some OCD and related stuff), using purchased consumables can be mentally unpleasant; (depending on the situation and the costs involved)
so it'd be important to find out why they're not using consumables, and whether they'd be amenable to learning to use them more.

Hmm, I can't say honestly that I know the root of their dislike for them, only that they do. Perhaps I should look into it as you say. I appreciate the suggestion.

You say depending on the situation and costs involved. Could you elaborate?

[Quertus]

Well, anything higher up the tree than Cure Light Wounds is inefficient, price wise, and even it is suboptimal compared to Lesser Vigor.

And any weight carried is that much less loot one can bring back, and/or that much less likely that one can run away.

Wand of Lesser Vigor? That's great. Scroll of True Resurrection? Worth buying. Most consumables? I'm with your players in calling them a waste of money.

And I totally make survival checks as I travel.

[Crake]

A door the party just can't open? Acid penetrates hardness and can corrode the hinges or the lock.

Hmm, I was about to ask where you got this, but looking at page 165 of the phb:


Energy Attacks: Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.

I can see where you're coming from. That section makes no mention of hardness like it does for fire and cold, but at the same time it doesn't say they ignore hardness. The cold and fire section mention hardness because they need to tell you whether you should halve/quarter the damage before or after hardness, which is why it's mentioned.

The main reason I believe this to be the case is that the psionic energy attacks say that their sonic version bypasses an object's hardness, but if it already did that, then they wouldn't need to specify.

[AmeVulpes]

Well, anything higher up the tree than Cure Light Wounds is inefficient, price wise, and even it is suboptimal compared to Lesser Vigor.

You do have a point, but if I'm in combat and taking 15 damage per round with 40 hit points left, and my only option to hopefully not die as quickly is to suck down some sort of restorative potion or run and leave my squishy spell-man open, I think a CSW is the go-to there, despite being wildly more expensive, over the Lesser Vigor.

Not to say this is a typical usage, and under ideal circumstances, your won't be under attack like that with that little health. Greataxe crits can be a bit of a mother, though.

[Torpin]

have you tried to give your quest a sense of urgency and if the players dont complete it by day x this bad thing happens, if not by day y then this thing happens and if its not done by day z then the players failed to stop it.

[AmeVulpes]

have you tried to give your quest a sense of urgency and if the players dont complete it by day x this bad thing happens, if not by day y then this thing happens and if its not done by day z then the players failed to stop it.

I can't say I've tried staggering deadlines, no. This does seem an interesting way to go about it. Most of my quests do have deadlines (and if nothing else, if you take too long, someone else comes along and snatches it up), but I like the idea of perhaps making it harder and harder as they fail to keep up with an Evil Guy.

[Eldariel]

You do have a point, but if I'm in combat and taking 15 damage per round with 40 hit points left, and my only option to hopefully not die as quickly is to suck down some sort of restorative potion or run and leave my squishy spell-man open, I think a CSW is the go-to there, despite being wildly more expensive, over the Lesser Vigor.

Not to say this is a typical usage, and under ideal circumstances, your won't be under attack like that with that little health. Greataxe crits can be a bit of a mother, though.

Potion of Invisibility is a far superior tool for that most of the time.

[Torpin]

I can't say I've tried staggering deadlines, no. This does seem an interesting way to go about it. Most of my quests do have deadlines (and if nothing else, if you take too long, someone else comes along and snatches it up), but I like the idea of perhaps making it harder and harder as they fail to keep up with an Evil Guy.

that way they cant keep going back to town to sell things, they have to keep pushing it between rests, and thus they have to use consumables, because either the encounters are more difficult or they just need it to get it all done.

[Zaq]

Huh. I wasn’t expecting to hear that consumables are instantly sold. Hoarded forever, sure. Sold instantly? That’s less familiar to me.

I admit that I’m personally not always comfortable using consumables because I don’t like the idea of using them at the “wrong time” and running out when I really need them. I irrationally take this too far and end up not using them when they really would be helpful. (I blame growing up on SNES-era RPGs like EarthBound and FF4, in my case. Especially EarthBound.) Drifting into anecdata here, but several of my friends feel similarly, while some other folks I know just forget that they even have most consumables and don’t even think to use them. They can sometimes be persuaded to drink a potion if they are reminded that they have said potion, but they won’t bring it to mind on their own.

I feel like it might be possible to alleviate some of the fear of running out simply by making it clear how plentiful they are and how many opportunities the players will have to buy more when they want more. But it sounds like maybe your party is acting out of an economic concern (potions give you less bang for the buck than just about any other item, after all) than out of a scarcity mindset? I’m not sure how to fix that without breaking something else, truth be told.

[Hackulator]

Yeah my games tend to be in the "hoard consumables forever" camp, except healing stuff, that gets used a lot.

The issue with consumables is that it can be very easy to feel like you are getting punished for using them if you use it at a bad time. Let me give you an extreme (but true) example. We were playing a low level, low power campaign. My friend had spent most of his gold on a single powerful healing potion. We get into a fight and are getting our asses kicked, and my friend, our tank fighter who is about to go down, quaffs his healing potion. ONE ROUND LATER we are saved by a deus ex machina we didn't know was coming. My friend was heated. Now as I said, this was an extreme example, but there are much less extreme versions that happen all the time, and thus players become gun shy about using them and would rather either save it almost forever, or sell it to at least get some guaranteed gold.

As for whether or not this is really a problem.......eh.

[zlefin]

Hmm, I can't say honestly that I know the root of their dislike for them, only that they do. Perhaps I should look into it as you say. I appreciate the suggestion.

You say depending on the situation and costs involved. Could you elaborate?

how I feel and how they feel of course may differ; but here's some examples:
I don't mind using potions in diablo2. probably because a) they drop often enough that they're self-repleneshing if the area isn't too tough, and b) the cost of them in currency is absolutely trivial for the rare occasions when you need to buy them; and ofc they're not worth enough to spend time selling.

whereas in worldoftanks and/or warships; I have tons of flags and other consumables laying around. I don't want to use them when it'd be an inefficient time to use them, so I may save them for special occasions (which end up never coming around). many of those things would cost ingame currency to buy, of which I have a limited supply; and it looks like the ingame currency cost exceeds the additional money you'd get from having one in a game; ie it's a net loss to use one. It feels really unfun to add a whole bunch of flags and then have a bad game, it feels like it was just a waste to have used them, and I really hate wasting things.

I've been playing some roguelikes lately; and use consumables there some (Depending on what the game has). But usually they just end up accumulating until I'm in a desparate situation and I use them (especially unidentified ones) as ways to possibly get out of a very bad situation. i.e. if it's a get out of fatal situation item and the situation is otherwise going to be fatal. being roguelike games, encountering fatal situations is expected ofc.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, consumable hoarding is a common, bad habit that a D&D player needs to break if they want to make the most out of their WBL and character power on every level (especially if they're non-casters, but casters should make plentiful use of spell completion and trigger items as well). NPCs are a great way to use them, because it clearly and obviously increases NPC power and threat (a set of Enlarged Trippers can be a real pain of course) without increasing PC long-term power and without breaking NPC or PC wealth per level. Plus it simply makes sense; since they (spells) are so good, everyone with any access to them should be using them aside from superstition or the like. PCs will get their share and should realise the advantages of using them soon enough.

Of course, they shouldn't always use them against PCs unless they know they're in for a tough fight. And they should have enough for more than one encounter - otherwise it breaks the suspension of disbelief (NPCs exist in the world, not just to fight the PCs after all; makes no sense to burn all their gas on fighting the PCs). In RHoD this is solved easily enough as the enemies know about the PCs fairly early on to some degree and the ones making the most use of the items are tasked with defending strategically crucial strongpoints and any intruder that makes it that far is certainly a tough customer. And well, they have a veritable army with a vast organisation behind them to provide them with equipment so they're not short on supplies.

The Doom Fist Monks I referenced (elite units far as equipment is concerned - it just so happens Unarmed chassis is one that gets huge mileage out of magic items especially on low levels too):

LE Medium humanoid (goblinoid)
Hobgoblin Monk 2/Unarmed Swordsage 2

+4 Initiative
AC 15 (22 with Law Devotion and Mage Armor) = 10 + 3 Dex + 2 Wis
Touch 15, Flat-Footed 12
HP 29.5 (4 HD)
30' Movement
Saves: +5 Fort, +7 Ref, +7 Will

Darkvision 60'; Spot +2, Listen +9

BAB +3; Grapple +6 (+8 with Dragon Chain)
+8 +1 Unarmed Strike 1d8+4
+8 Mw. Dragonchain 1d6+4 (Reach)
+7 Mw. Sling 1d4+3 (50' range increment)

Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8

Feats & ACFs:
B. Improved Unarmed Strike
B. Combat Reflexes
1. Law Devotion
B. Improved Trip
ACF. Invisible Fist (invisible for 1 round, need 3 rounds to recharge)
3. Knock-Down
B. Adaptive Style
B. EWP: Dragon Chain
Discipline Focus (Shadow Hand): Weapon Focus: Dagger/Sai/Siagham/Short Sword/Spiked Chain/Unarmed Strike

Ranks (6*5+4*2 = 38):
7 Concentration
5 Hide
7 Jump
7 Listen
5 Move Silently
7 Tumble

+11 Concentration
+10 Hide
+14 Jump
+9 Listen
+14 Move Silently
+14 Tumble

Maneuvers Readied:
Sudden Leap
Rabid Wolf Strike
Counter Charge
Burning Blade

Initiator Level +3
1. Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Burning Blade, Counter Charge, Moment of Perfect Mind, Mighty Throw
2. Rabid Wolf Strike

Stances: Child of Shadow, Hunter's Sense

Mw. Dragon Chain
Mw. Sling + 40 bullets
+1 Necklace of Natural Attacks
2xPotion of Mage Armor, 1xPotion of Bull's Strength, 2xPotion of Enlarge Person, 1xPotion of Cure Medium Wounds, 2xPotion of Cure Light Wounds
Mw. Tools of Concentration, Jump, Hide, Move Silently & Tumble

[Torpin]

you can try giving them potions that have immediate needed usage, like a villain could have 4 potions of under water breathing, then the next floor in the dungeon is completely underwater

[Quertus]

You do have a point, but if I'm in combat and taking 15 damage per round with 40 hit points left, and my only option to hopefully not die as quickly is to suck down some sort of restorative potion or run and leave my squishy spell-man open, I think a CSW is the go-to there, despite being wildly more expensive, over the Lesser Vigor.


Potion of Invisibility is a far superior tool for that most of the time.


thus players become gun shy about using them, or sell it to at least get some guaranteed gold.

Yeah, cheep "escape clause" is better than expensive healing. And any money spent for short term gain, long term loss is questionable in a 3e economy.

If, for whatever aesthetic reason, you want people to use consumables, you need to make that a reasonable in-character decision. Make consumables cost 1/10th or even just 1% of the book price. Make magic shops not purchase consumables, or even not exist at all. Give them an "alchemist" NPC, who gives them Free "experimental" potions for them to try out in the field, and report the results (maybe they saved his life, and this is how he repays them).

Give them a reason to use consumables. Don't be upset when they make the tactically optimal choices - change the scenario until the "optimal" (to their perspective) choice matches your desired aesthetic.

[Zaq]

It requires a nontrivial departure from the basic rules, but what if you decoupled consumables from gold? Treat them like Legend does, or like how Eberron treats action points.

Forge an understanding with the players that they’ll generally expect to have a certain baseline number of consumable items per quest, per level, or per similarly appropriate period of time. Lay down that there can be exceptions when doing otherwise makes verisimilitude creak and groan, but this will be rare if the PCs don’t do anything exceptionally stupid. These shouldn’t be thought of as something with market value; the PCs won’t be explicitly buying them or selling them, so they can’t overstock on them at the cost of permanent items, and they can’t get money for permanent items by foregoing the consumables. They’re decoupled. And you don’t have to make an extremely explicit use-it-or-lose-it mentality, but still establish that they won’t be able to amass a ridiculous stockpile by abstaining from using them.

You can certainly sprinkle the occasional consumable in as loot, and that’s probably not a bad idea. Give enough to discourage hoarding (the understanding being that there will be more), but keep the supply tight enough that they feel cool when they do get used.

Ideally, the fact that the party can expect a fresh batch periodically will soothe players in the “I can’t use it because I can’t run out” mindset, and the fact that they exist outside of the gold economy will soothe players in the “every potion drunk is a loss; I’d rather sell them and buy something substantial” mindset. I mean, yeah, it’s a tiny bit metagamey, but who cares? The current situation is prettt metagamey as well.

I admit that extremely minor consumables like acid flasks aren’t handled well in this way, but honestly, I’m okay with not tracking extremely minor consumables after the very earliest levels as long as no one tries to abuse them.

[Deophaun]

It feels really unfun to add a whole bunch of flags and then have a bad game, it feels like it was just a waste to have used them, and I really hate wasting things.
I was the same way. Well, still am, but to a much lesser extent. The first step is to realize that having them sitting in your inventory is also wasting them, as an item you never use is no more effective than an item you never have (barring deterrence scenarios). But, that's just the first step. You then have to resolve to force yourself to use them, as knowing it intellectually is not the same as knowing it habitually.

Anyway, it seems the OP's players have mastered the first step. If they know they would just let them stockpile up for a rainy day that will never come--it's never sufficiently rainy, as it could always rain even more later--selling them off is not the worst thing they could.

[Menzath]

Have one of your players make a character with through the roof use magic device.
Every random scroll and wand is now useful, especially if they are playing a mundane.

Not sure if they do(sounds like they don't) but maybe start adding in more uses/day magic items that are just overall more useful. Like belts of healing. Or eternal wands.

Trying to push them away from the "all day strong" mentality that magic items give is alright to a degree, but maybe have a "doping" enemy, or enemies.
I can imagine a caster giving a bunch of his elite minions potions of stone skin and some other nice things. It's more like trying to impress upon them that "doping items" do have great uses, and times to be used.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, cheep "escape clause" is better than expensive healing. And any money spent for short term gain, long term loss is questionable in a 3e economy.

If, for whatever aesthetic reason, you want people to use consumables, you need to make that a reasonable in-character decision. Make consumables cost 1/10th or even just 1% of the book price. Make magic shops not purchase consumables, or even not exist at all. Give them an "alchemist" NPC, who gives them Free "experimental" potions for them to try out in the field, and report the results (maybe they saved his life, and this is how he repays them).

Give them a reason to use consumables. Don't be upset when they make the tactically optimal choices - change the scenario until the "optimal" (to their perspective) choice matches your desired aesthetic.

It really isn't a loss. Basically, if you use consumables, you're at all times above curve compared to a "saving" mentality. Yes, you get some big item earlier if you save all your cash but you'll have a slightly weaker item and consumables at the same time in spending mentality, which generally amounts to a higher overall power level and that applies from 1 to 20. I'd draw a graph but I'm too lazy to; basically though, consumable use actually increases the value you get out of your WBL by enough that it more than subsumes having less absolute WBL from making permanent investitures. You need a lot of uses of a permanent item to make it surpass getting the same effect from consumables; generally you'll mix'n'match the optimal ones from both categories if you're using your wealth well (and skip most items, because most big permanent items are largely a waste of gold).

[HouseRules]

Look at this
Wand of Cure Light Wounds: Wand Cost + (750 * 1 Spell Level * 1 Caster Level) gp
Staff of Infinite Cure Light Wounds: Staff Cost + (1500 * 1 Spell Level * 1 Caster Level) gp

Potions are more expensive than Scrolls.
Scrolls are more expensive than Charges.
Charges are more expensive than At-Will.

Permanent Items are better overall unless you force overwhelming challenges and very difficult challenges in higher than recommended rates.

Edit: To really deal with consumables and permanent item imbalance, you have to force situations that makes more sense to have consumables, like increasing the cost of permanent items so that they are not more cost efficient.

Edit: The whole pricing issue in the game is this ratios:
24 potions = 40 scrolls = 100 charges = at will

[Eldariel]

Look at this
Wand of Cure Light Wounds: Wand Cost + (750 * 1 Spell Level * 1 Caster Level) gp
Staff of Infinite Cure Light Wounds: Staff Cost + (1500 * 1 Spell Level * 1 Caster Level) gp

Potions are more expensive than Scrolls.
Scrolls are more expensive than Charges.
Charges are more expensive than At-Will.

Permanent Items are better overall unless you force overwhelming challenges and very difficult challenges in higher than recommended rates.

Edit: To really deal with consumables and permanent item imbalance, you have to force situations that makes more sense to have consumables, like increasing the cost of permanent items so that they are not more cost efficient.

That's assuming player-designed custom magic items are available, which they shouldn't be if you wish to keep the system functional. Consumables give you precision effects while Staves and the like have you pay premium for a set of effects not all of which are equally useful. Generally you'll have Healing Belt for immediate, personal use and then Wand of LV to top out between encounters and when you're taking more than expected amount of damage. That said, most spell effects can't meaningfully be replicated by permanent items cheaply. Permanent items that grant temporary flight tend to be at least 10k aside from very few, somewhat limited exceptions for example. Potions are 750gp, Scrolls half that. If you want Fly at a reasonable time (instead of by the time casters have had it for 5 levels), you will get consumables. Same with punching above your weight; Scrolls of key spells allow tackling way tougher encounters than your usual fare very early. It's not a coincidence the most broken item in the game (Candle of Invocation) is also a consumable - consumables get you power ahead of the curve.

[zlefin]

part of the issue stems from the weakness of consumables in 3.P
most consumables simply aren't that good/useful. the relative cost effectiveness of consumables vs one-use items is simply not that favorable. A fair part of this is action economy: most consumables are a standard action; and using up a standard action in combat is a pretty big cost, and situations where you can reliably pre-buff AND know you're facing an opponent worth spending consumables AND they won't counter it by running away until your buffs wear off are not that common (depending on playstyle).

Another is that the effectiveness of many consumables often isn't much, if any, greater than you already have access to:
for a spellcaster, usually they only have scrolls of their own level or lower. And you already have spells of that level. so while a scroll may add options, and more sustainability in a long fight, it doesn't tend to add to your opening nova in a major fight. scrolls of higher level than your own can be a big help, but it's very rare that you can acquire such, and there's a considerable chance of failure when you do so.

[Ramza00]

So, this thread is for you to share your tactics and stories related to getting your players to actually purchase, or at the very least not sell off, useful consumables. Oh, and actually using them.
Working memory is one of the reason people do not like consumables.

To use a consumable you have to remember you have a consumable, what it is, when to use it, when it is not useful and beneficial (and thus a waste of resources / gp with its misuse.) All this mental stuff you have to remember, to dedicate your attention on, and this is taking away your working memory and attention to the more fun aspects of the game that some people enjoy. You have applied a working memory and attention task without realizing it. It is mentally exhausting.


The solution to this is externalize.


You externalize important information in the form of a white board the player can use and it is no longer something they have to remember.
External working memory devices work better when it is something in the player's visual field, something they can hold, and not just another line on a collection of papers.
Or you can give a player a cut out of piece of paper that is an oval or flask shape that helps remind the player of the potions when you hand out treasures.
This is why some DMs use treasure cards that they hand out to the player. (Just use magic cards that are common, with a card sleeve, and then put a second piece of paper with writting or picture of what treasure you handed out.)
Treasure cards allow you to put the most salient information in front of the player in an easy to remember format.
Note a treasure card should not have all the information but only the most salient part.
Think successful powerpoint where the speaker does not put all his verbal words on the slide but only the key points on the slide.


Another thing that may help with consuambles is to get the player to practice making their own consumables via giving them specific adventure loop via handing out an A) Quick Potion spell in an eternal wand, and also introduce them to B) Gremma's Cauldron from Expedition to Undermountain (5,000 gp). Both of these items allow a player to make their own potions on the fly, with the eternal wand of Quick Potion changing their spell slots to a potion they can create that lasts a few hours (3 hours if you set the caster level to 3, but you are the DM you can choose the caster level effect or even make the eternal wand have a free extend effect.) Gremma Cauldron gives you a potion of CLW every day if you throw in 25 gp worth of stuff, but it also allows you to create other potions by throwing in spell scrolls and some gp worth of stuff. The point of this paragraph is if the player is participating in the creation of these consumables they are more attached to consumables in general for they co-create them and thus it is stuck in their working memory already and they have a goal in mind when they co-create these consumables.

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This also applies to your Survival checks and your players having less health for they do not have enough food and so on. You as a DM are getting off and having fun on the book keeping aspect, the system mastery with rules and if A occurs A causes B to then occur. But to the players this if a boring if-then for you have turn the game into Oregon Trail and the players are not invested in the Oregon Trail aspect of playing D&D, they do not want to play the book keeping aspect. They want to play the characters for the characters are the part that is "alive" with their breath, the fire of playing someone else, the possibility of gain and loss by the choices they made. But there is no real choice in remembering to buy 15 lbs of beef instead of 10 lbs of beef at the store. Instead knowing the right amount is like nagging kids to brush their teeth for 2.5 minutes and not 60 seconds.

This is why in 3.5 there are magic items that give you all the things you will need for a few thousand gp, even though these items are way overpriced people buy them in order to not have to deal with these headaches. It is a wealth tax that speeds up the game and alleviates the tax on working memory. There are many of these items, but one of them is the "Survival Pouch" from Races of the Wild for 5,000 gp. 5x a day 5/day, provide rations, water, tent, rope, campfire, shortbow, mule.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

...buy a pot...I don't think cannabis will help anything.

I'm with your players. Consumables suck.

I -might- be convinced to buy a wand of Lesser Vigor, but why waste money on chugging potions when you could invest in permanent upgrades?

[King of Nowhere]

You do have a point, but if I'm in combat and taking 15 damage per round with 40 hit points left, and my only option to hopefully not die as quickly is to suck down some sort of restorative potion or run and leave my squishy spell-man open, I think a CSW is the go-to there, despite being wildly more expensive, over the Lesser Vigor.

Not to say this is a typical usage, and under ideal circumstances, your won't be under attack like that with that little health. Greataxe crits can be a bit of a mother, though.
Potion of Invisibility is a far superior tool for that most of the time.
Are we all forgetting that drinking potions in melee proovokes an attack of opportunity? and if said attack of opportunity succeeds, you need to make a concentration check (which, as a martial, you won't have) or lose the potion.
In that situation, I'd rather llose the full round to disengage


It really isn't a loss. Basically, if you use consumables, you're at all times above curve compared to a "saving" mentality. Yes, you get some big item earlier if you save all your cash but you'll have a slightly weaker item and consumables at the same time in spending mentality

[emphasis mine]

The problem with this approach is that consumables are something to take before the fight, so you won't have them if you are not prepared first.
Sure, if you drink that potion of barkskin just before the fight you'll get a bigger bonus than if you bought the amulet of natural armor. But if some enemies ambush you, you won't have the time to drink the potion, and the amulet may save your life.
How much it impacts the game depends on how often you get surprised, which depends on the DM and the kind of game you're running, but it also has a psycological impact. Investing more on consumables leaves you weaker at the time when you may need it the most. And so you buy permanent items not much to have greater power, but to have that power always available, and not easily removable by a dispel magic.

high optimization always assumes that you can arrive at a fight prepared, because you used divinations and skill check to avoid surprises; it also entails ways to protect buffs from beign dispelled. I never liked the approach, though, because it assumes that your opponent is not preparing, or he is less skilled than you at preparing.

So in the end consumables are good to boost power for that big fight that you can prepare beforehand, of to have that niche effect ready to use in the rare case you need it and are screwed without, but you can't rely on them all the time, and you should plan accordingly.

[Eldariel]

Are we all forgetting that drinking potions in melee proovokes an attack of opportunity? and if said attack of opportunity succeeds, you need to make a concentration check (which, as a martial, you won't have) or lose the potion.
In that situation, I'd rather llose the full round to disengage

Sure, if you can get out and not get charged after, that might suffice. Ultimately, even without Tumble, you can generally 5' step, drink a potion and let them guess whether you had a means to move further (they have no way of knowing but even if they attack the square, you have at least 50% miss chance).


The problem with this approach is that consumables are something to take before the fight, so you won't have them if you are not prepared first.
Sure, if you drink that potion of barkskin just before the fight you'll get a bigger bonus than if you bought the amulet of natural armor. But if some enemies ambush you, you won't have the time to drink the potion, and the amulet may save your life.
How much it impacts the game depends on how often you get surprised, which depends on the DM and the kind of game you're running, but it also has a psycological impact. Investing more on consumables leaves you weaker at the time when you may need it the most. And so you buy permanent items not much to have greater power, but to have that power always available, and not easily removable by a dispel magic.

high optimization always assumes that you can arrive at a fight prepared, because you used divinations and skill check to avoid surprises; it also entails ways to protect buffs from beign dispelled. I never liked the approach, though, because it assumes that your opponent is not preparing, or he is less skilled than you at preparing.

So in the end consumables are good to boost power for that big fight that you can prepare beforehand, of to have that niche effect ready to use in the rare case you need it and are screwed without, but you can't rely on them all the time, and you should plan accordingly.

Of course they aren't something you rely on for easy encounters, but they are again one of the very few ways to surpass your limits. A level 2 Monk won't have Bracers of Armor +4, but he can have a Potion of Mage Armor for the crutch. It's not permanent but it's what he can have. A level 5 Fighter won't have Feathered Wings but he can have Potion of Fly. A level 8 Wizard won't have Disjunction, but he can have a Scroll. And so on. Of course, such items get better for the party that excels in taking the initiative (good scouts/scouting powers/mobility powers; teleport, scry, prying eyes, HiPSy, Hide/MS: Yes, Darkstalker, etc.) but even for the worst prepared party they allow you to cover weaknesses there are no permanent means to cover on this level (though spellcasters can always come close; again, consumables are doubly important for mundanes, which is why UMD is such a big deal 'cause you don't have to pay a crapload and be restricted in spell choices if you can use Scrolls).

[Deophaun]

A fair part of this is action economy: most consumables are a standard action; and using up a standard action in combat is a pretty big cost, and situations where you can reliably pre-buff AND know you're facing an opponent worth spending consumables AND they won't counter it by running away until your buffs wear off are not that common (depending on playstyle).
This is very true for alchemical items that you apply to weapons. They might take a full-round to apply, only to last for one or two rounds immediately after. I "solved" this in a current game with ghostoil by making a dagger's sheath the container and putting a wax seal around the weapon's hilt, effectively pre-applying while keeping it fresh until the blade is drawn. That means the only action cost to get access to it is drawing the weapon.

[King of Nowhere]

i wonder if a hand-pump in the hilt that sprays oil over the blade would be feasible.
in the real world it was never attempted because weapons were deadly enough - in fact, setting a blade on fire may cauterize the wound and actually make it less threatening - but it would make sense to always get alchemist fire on your weapon without spending actions for it.

[Deophaun]

Dungeonscape has the oil chamber weapon modification that does just that. Unfortunately, it gave it an astronomical price so that you're assured to not need it once you can afford it.

[Quertus]

Do consumables let you "punch above your weight class"? Sure. The Scroll of True Resurrection is a popular "party fund" item at my tables. Back in 3.0, when Animal Companion was a spell rather than a class feature, I used a Wand of Animal Friendship to punch above my weight class. Scrolls of Simulacrum, Ice Assassin, Animate Dead, Miracle? All* have graced my character sheets.

Consumables aren't just power - they can expand your range of options, too. Potions of Fly or Invisibility are definitely in this category. But you know what else is in that category? Spells. Just, spells come back (and are generally better).

But truly random consumables? They don't synergize with my character, don't add to his power or his range. They're fodder for sale at the magic item shop.

Give me 2e, where shops were all but unheard of, and I'll look at a Necklace of Missiles and think it's really cool (and hoard it away, hoping the rainy day where it's needed needed never comes). In 3e? Do you know how many Pearls of Power or Eternal Wands I could buy for that price? Nah, I'd never keep it, and I'd certainly never buy it.

* That said, I've never actually played with Ice Assassin.

[AmeVulpes]

I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this so far.

The main reason I want my players to use them is, well,

Consumables aren't just power - they can expand your range of options, too.
Even when the party has a good caster, they don't always have the right spells prepared. Not keeping them on hand, in my opinion, pares down options from what they should have.

I did have a short talk with one of my players, and it seems to come from experience with another DM. When they purchased a consumable or found one, they'd find that they needed a different one, but never actually needed the one they had. They suspect said former DM was tailoring encounters around their inventory to render short-term power-boost or option-expanding consumables far less useful.

But maybe it was random chance in shop inventory/loot vs a preestablished module? We didn't really talk that in depth. I don't tailor encounters one way or another. I build an encounter regardless of the party going against it, so sometimes it's weaker or stronger, sometimes a particular ability will be useless or near-useless, but sometimes it's exactly the right answer. I'm not sure how to approach this aspect, either way.

[Jay R]

They are playing the way they want to play. They are not making their characters over-powered.

There's no problem here to fix.

Let them decide what the PCs do. You have enough to do deciding what everybody else does.

[Quertus]

But maybe it was random chance in shop inventory/loot vs a preestablished module? We didn't really talk that in depth. I don't tailor encounters one way or another. I build an encounter regardless of the party going against it, so sometimes it's weaker or stronger, sometimes a particular ability will be useless or near-useless, but sometimes it's exactly the right answer. I'm not sure how to approach this aspect, either way.

Kudos on that. That is, to my mind, the best baseline to start from.

It may not help you, but an idea I had for encouraging consumable use was to include a sentient wand-socket sword, perhaps even complete with "potion-injector" handle. Point being, it can take its action to use the consumable on the PC's behalf.

Would have been good if the reason was "random consumables are weak, and a bad use of action economy, especially for a 2-man party".

[DeTess]

As others have said before, using consumables can feel bad when it appears to have been wasted/unnecessary or because it feels like a permanent loss of wealth that could have gone to something permanent. Times I remember that spending consumables did feel good was when they where the exact thing needed to avoid a party-wipe (such as throwing about 5 liters of alchemists fire into a dragon's mouth).

One way to encourage using consumables is for the players to get free, unsellable, limited-time only consumables. You could have the one sending them on a quest give them a number of consumables with the understanding that unused items will be returned, or as suggested before, have an NPC hanger-on provide them with experimental stuff that'll become nonfunctional in a couple of days. That way they are encouraged to use the consumable because they don't represent a loss in resources (didn't cost money and can't be sold), and there's no point in hoarding them (because they'll be gone at the end of the dungeon).

Another thing you need to keep in mind is to make consumables worth the time and effort. If a fighter has to choose between throwing alchemists fire for about 11 damage(assuming it keeps burning for 2 rounds), or hitting the enemy with a weapon for 20 damage, it makes sense to hit them with a weapon. Therefore, don't hand out bottles of alchemists fire to a mid-level party, give them alchemical grenades that deal a fistful of d6's of damage over a decent area.

[noob]

I've been with the same three players (not that I can get them all in the same room) for about five years. We've done a few runs in 5e, and tried some other more obscure systems, but more than 90% of our time together has been in 3.5e.

In all of this time, I've never been able to convince them to keep consumables on hand.

A potion of invisibility? Gets sold immediately.

A flask of Alchemist's fire? Probably gone, unless they're expecting to fight a troll or white wyrmling etc soon.

A potion of cure moderate wounds? Absolutely always sold immediately.

Same story with poisons, wands, scrolls, and non-replenishing charge items.

And trying to get them to buy consumables? I've even tried having 25% off sales in shops and whatnot, no bites. They'd rather put the money toward permanently enhanced items, at their own cost in the interim, and be rid of the inventory weight sooner than later. They even use Survival checks and travel slower rather than buy food.

Yes, it does bite them. They would rather recover health with natural healing than hire a town cleric to cast a CMW, buy a pot, or what have you. Even in the wilderness. They'll be health-down for days with all the problems that implies, and be upset that their only way out is to buy short-term benefit consumable items.

So, this thread is for you to share your tactics and stories related to getting your players to actually purchase, or at the very least not sell off, useful consumables. Oh, and actually using them.
Healing belts are a valid replacement for health consumables.(800 gp for 6d8 health per day)
Combine that with a 4 caster team (such as team cleric) and you have close to 0 needs for consumables(a curse, paralysis, sickness, needing to breath under water, want to burn a forest or to zerg rush everything or to collapse buildings? all that is solvable by team cleric).
With 4 casters you can prepare a vast spread of different spells.
If carry capacity is the problem(you are suggesting that) they can use everlasting rations and the like for food.(more expensive than buying food but you do not need to carry the food and if you find yourself lost in a desert you will not have problems with spending spell slots on food)

If you wanted actually useful consumables give them stuff like a scroll of gate or a staff or true Resurrection(the staff of true ressurection is useful because you can use it for getting one free true Resurrection a day.).

[ezekielraiden]

One, perhaps somewhat less positive, way to address this could be to have consumables that simply cannot be sold, though it doesn't have to be overtly negative either.

For example, say they do something nice for an alchemist. Said alchemist doesn't have enough straight-up money to pay them, so he offers some new potions he's developed--they have to be keyed to specific individuals, but they work better than normal potions as a result. E.g., everyone gives him a few hairs, and he gives them some free potions of heal.

Alternatively, instead of just trying to alter the value directly, consider addressing some of the issues with using consumables. For example, in many cases consumables take too long to use, or interfere with doing your character's regular schtick. So you might find your players more enthusiastic about them if they see someone else using (custom, of course) equipment that lets them amplify their abilities with potions...and when the party defeats them, that equipment becomes theirs. I'm imagining something like an alchemical injector assembly, which can store one (or perhaps more, with modification) potions for near-instant application: once per round as a free action, you can trigger the assembly to inject a potion. Or some kind of weapon augmentation that can use alchemical weapons as part of making an attack. More or less, if your players don't like consumables, making consumables actually more *useful* could be wise. And if they still stubbornly ignore it, you can start making this a prominent feature: people using alchemical enhancement regularly as opposed to just occasionally, or employers offering a couple of free "charges" for such alchemical-use/injection items with jobs, and being surprised(/worried/"oh...well...I'll find someone else who can do the job then") when the PCs just refuse them.

In the end, though, you may just have players who really, deeply dislike the notion of consumable items--who see any form of spending on "stuff that will be gone" as a waste. That's not an easy thing to change. It's hard to wrap your head around "I don't need to be slightly better *all* the time, I just need to be *better enough* whenever it's needed."

Perhaps draw comparisons to charge-per-day items, or even spell slots? Do they hate spellcasters solely because they can't guarantee they'll have a spell slot (to say nothing of a prepared spell!) every moment of every day?

[AmeVulpes]

One, perhaps somewhat less positive, way to address this could be to have consumables that simply cannot be sold, though it doesn't have to be overtly negative either.
[...]
Perhaps draw comparisons to charge-per-day items, or even spell slots? Do they hate spellcasters solely because they can't guarantee they'll have a spell slot (to say nothing of a prepared spell!) every moment of every day?

I may consider making it a hassle to sell consumables. For instance, potential pawn shops suspecting them of being watering down, requiring a social skill check or a costly Identify. Come to think of it, with things of a magical nature in general, it seems slightly silly that shopkeepers seem to always take an adventurer's word for it when it comes to i, knowing that they are not infallible Sense Motive machines.

They tend to avoid spellcasters less for the spell slot problem, more for the chosen spell ("Of f------ course I picked Fireball and now we're fighting nothing but red dragons!" is an actual example) or prepared spell. I suppose that is quite easily related.
------------------------
I do, in general, allow players to design their own equipment, with appropriate time, Knowledge, and Craft checks. Maybe I could show them an NPC with a belt that holds several potions, and with, say, a move or Swift action, he can press a button and have it inject said one of said potions. A large theme in this thread is definitely action economy.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The Soul Crystal power, from MoI, creates temporary power stones that literally anyone can use (assuming they're not mindless, anyway). I doubt anyone would wanna buy one, since there's no way to determine how much duration is left. Maybe set up some psionic adventures against a StP erudite who is making them for minions, or maybe he's been kidnapped (or his kid was) and is making them under duress.

If they defeat or rescue him, he can make them some for their own use. There's literally no reason for them not to use them, at that point.

[Saintheart]

Consumables seem to be a lot more used down the very bottom of the level table, mainly due to a lack of other instantly-available options and mainly due to the fact it's as swingy at level 1 as it is at level 20. And one reason the party isn't using consumables is because their inherent abilities haven't been exhausted. Thus the random encounter, especially during rest periods, providing you know how to create and use them properly.

That said, I do agree with the sentiment that if this is their playstyle it likely shouldn't be interfered with. If the concern is that they don't seem to be getting any value out of the consumables that crop up across the adventure, or that all the players do is sell the things, change the treasure into a small pile of gold pieces instead.

[King of Nowhere]

I

I did have a short talk with one of my players, and it seems to come from experience with another DM. When they purchased a consumable or found one, they'd find that they needed a different one, but never actually needed the one they had. They suspect said former DM was tailoring encounters around their inventory to render short-term power-boost or option-expanding consumables far less useful.


I have a similar experience here, but I think I have a good explanation for it: it can be summed up as "the day is never rainy enough"
Basically, after we had to figth in a tridimensional lair without flying (the wizard forgot to prepare it), we decided to buy a few potions of flying. they are not cheap. And we never used them.
The thing is, whenever a situation comes where flying would be useful, we're all "let's try to find a different way, else we'll have to burn 750 gp".
So, it's not that the consumable is not needed, but you don't want to spend it and so you try hard to avoid using it.

It's a bit like dwarven bread in discworld: you can live forever with a small piece of it, thinking "if I don't find anything else to eat, I'll have to eat this dwarven bread"

[AmeVulpes]

If the concern is that they don't seem to be getting any value out of the consumables that crop up across the adventure, or that all the players do is sell the things, change the treasure into a small pile of gold pieces instead.

This is something I have done in the past. They're just such a large part of the variety of the game that I would like them to be on the table. I may just have to settle for having NPCs reasonably use them.

[Yahzi]

Yeah my games tend to be in the "hoard consumables forever" camp, except healing stuff, that gets used a lot.
Same here. I give them potions and they just... hang onto them.

The problem is they don't think they can get more. The solution is easy: give them LOTS of potions! No wait, the solution has already been suggested: have NPCs use them on a regular basis.

[jdizzlean]

If you're enforcing encumbrance and weight limits and all the like, that could be part of it. as a player, the less penalties to things i have to worry about the better. in the game i play in, we don't worry about that, and just about everyone has various amounts of disposable items on hand.

of course, we don't worry about food/drink either, however an occasional survival check is made if we happen to be going x-country for extended time periods.

not tracking things like arrows/bolts/bullets shot is another thing, you can always scratch off some gold from loot to cover it up if it bothers you.

streamline things for them, and i'm sure you'll see some positive results.

[ezekielraiden]

Another idea: the party could pick up a temporary alchemist ally, who has a defined stock of potions from the beginning. He won't just sell them--he already does that, this is just his personal stock--but he uses them on himself and on them. So if they get roughed up a bit? Greater healing potion. He's in a bad spot and needs to hulk out? Potion of bull's strength. Etc. Coupled with improved action economy stuff, this guy could show the advantages that a potion in the right moment can provide, and that you're not interested in designing combats to intentionally negate the characters' consumables.

(If you really want to hammer it home, have this alchemist possess a blowdart and a custom feat that lets him shoot allies with potion-darts as an interrupt 1/round or something. Then let them know, "Well, you might not be able to do what that guy did, but there's this cool belt he could sell you...")

And now I kind of want to make a character whose buffs and ranged heals are fluffed as blowdarts, just because that's kind of hilarious.