Warlock Implement at level 1 Patron at level 3?

[Rebonack]

This is kind of a weird idea that's been rattling around in my head for a while now.

What if the Warlock got their Book/Blade/Chain as an arcane focus at level one and didn't get their Patron until level 3? Mechanically this would mean no Patron feature or expanded spell list to start, but they would get the item that largely informs what sort of warlock they are right from the gate. This would also make tweaks to Blade flow quite a bit easier since a player could begin the game with their Gishery rather than having to wait until level three or be shoehorned into Hexblade.

From a fluff standpoint, the Warlock changes significantly. Their spellcasting prowess would still be drawing from otherworldly sources, but it wouldn't be getting handed to them on a platter right off the bat. It's something they've had to pursue. Which, as I understand it, was more of how the Warlock functioned in early play tests as an Int caster before they were bumped to Charisma due to 'but that's different!' public outcry. Before level three would could say that the Warlock has been dabbling in eldritch power sources, but they haven't struck a pact just yet. Maybe they weren't powerful enough to be noticed by a fae lord or a fiendish prince. Or maybe they weren't powerful enough to forge a link to some awful slumbering thing from the void beyond the stars. Either way, once they hit level three the pact happens and things pick up. And I think that could be a major boon to the RP side of things since the forging of that pact becomes an in-game event rather than something relegated to backstory alone.

Thoughts?

[Millstone85]

It is clear to me that the warlock is backward in its patron/boon design. The PHB subclasses should have been the binder, the hexblade and the occultist, while the patron would have informed available invocations and such.

But I don't think the order should be inverted. It would be just like that mess with the paladin technically being oath-free until 3rd level.

Also, I am glad there was a "public outcry" over the casting stat. If warlocks were studious, they would be wizards.

[cyberfunkr]

This would conflict with how Clerics get their patron ("religion") at first level.

The whole theme of Warlock is that they are receiving powers from an otherworldly patron. Why should they have to wait until 3rd level to gain powers, spell, and features?

[pdegan2814]

This idea makes zero sense. The bargain with your Patron is how you become a Warlock and gain your powers, which is why it happens at Level 1. Your Pact Boon is a reward granted by your Patron, which is why it happens afterward at Level 3.

[Foxhound438]

eh, you're not at levels one and two for very long, so the impact this would have would be limited for players that aren't dipping one or two levels. But, on the other hand, if your plan is to be the guy that takes two levels of warlock and then goes to sorcerer to never look back, then you might be getting more than your fair share from those couple of levels. A book of shadows at level one means that a sorlock has more cantrips than they know what to do with, and already having the book means that at level 2 they can pick up the invocation that lets the ritual cast a level earlier than the normally could. Net result there is that they get way more utility than they really should. As such, I would probably say "no multi classing" if a player wanted to do this.

Aside from that, probably make the warlock still choose a patron at level 1 despite not yet having specific benefits for that patron, as they have to get their powers from somewhere (similar to paladins typically following an oath from the start and then later getting specific powers).

[Laserlight]

I don't disagree with OP, but L3 comes pretty quickly. Unless you're only dipping, of course.

I'm playing a new Fiend Tomelock right now (and INT based). It's a bit of nuisance to take one incantation at L2 and immediately trade it out at L3 for Ancient Secrets...but I took the one that gives you 1d4+4 THP at will, which hardly merits a complaint.

[Chronos]

Quoth Millstone85:

Also, I am glad there was a "public outcry" over the casting stat. If warlocks were studious, they would be wizards.
And if they were charismatic, they would be sorcerers.

[Millstone85]

And if they were charismatic, they would be sorcerers.Why, yes, I happen to think that a single class could have covered both "I made a pact with a celestial/dragon/fey/fiend/genie/..." and "My ancestor was a celestial/dragon/fey/fiend/genie/...".

[Max_Killjoy]

So there was some sort of jealous outcry in defense of the Wizard as THE Int-based caster?

Huh.

[Mortis_Elrod]

And if they were charismatic, they would be sorcerers.

Don't really agree. You can't talk your ancestors into being magical. Not without time shenanigans. But you could talk you're way into getting powers from otherworldly entities.

[Foxhound438]

Don't really agree. You can't talk your ancestors into being magical. Not without time shenanigans. But you could talk you're way into getting powers from otherworldly entities.

I think the point he's making is that if being int based makes a caster necessarily a wizard then the same would hold true to being charisma based and being a sorcerer. The point is that both of those assertions are false.

[Millstone85]

Alright, I am going to make the portrait of an Intlock as it comes to my mind.

She is a student of forbidden arts, of magical fluxes that even wizards consider unwise to interfere with. Perhaps it is alien energies from the farthest reaches of the planes, or the whimsical power of the Feywild, or the malign essence of the Lower Planes. Either way, nothing has ever been handed to her on a platter. There was no strange little creature seeking her as a child to say "Make a contract with me and become a magical girl!", no moustache-and-goatee-twirling dandy wanting a teenager's signature in blood. And if one came now, she would turn them down. She reads, experiments and records as methodically as a wizard would, if they had the courage to face true magic.

Would that make for a cool character? I hope so. Does the PHB's description of the class have elements of this? I concede it. However, I think the dominant flavor of the Chalock is that of a character who took a major shortcut in their pursuit of arcane magic, and now wields that power with little understanding. A very different beast.

[KorvinStarmast]

Alright, I am going to make the portrait of an Intlock as it comes to my mind.

She is a student of forbidden arts, of magical fluxes that even wizards consider unwise to interfere with. Perhaps it is alien energies from the farthest reaches of the planes, or the whimsical power of the Feywild, or the malign essence of the Lower Planes. Either way, nothing has ever been handed to her on a platter. There was no strange little creature seeking her as a child to say "Make a contract with me and become a magical girl!", no moustache-and-goatee-twirling dandy wanting a teenager's signature in blood. And if one came now, she would turn them down. She reads, experiments and records as methodically as a wizard would, if they had the courage to face true magic.

Would that make for a cool character? I hope so. Does the PHB's description of the class have elements of this? I concede it. However, I think the dominant flavor of the Chalock is that of a character who took a major shortcut in their pursuit of arcane magic, and now wields that power with little understanding. A very different beast. So much love for this post. And yes, that makes for the cool character the PHB hints at.

[Chronos]

Quoth Mortis_Elrod:

Don't really agree. You can't talk your ancestors into being magical. Not without time shenanigans. But you could talk you're way into getting powers from otherworldly entities.
If you make a deal with Asmodeus or Queen Mab, do you really think that you're the one who talked them into it? Or that anyone could talk Cthulhu into anything?

[stoutstien]

I'm definitely the camp that warlocks make more sense as an intelligence base class than Cha.
And sorcerers really should be a constitution based but that would be really hard to balance.
Actually constitution as the casting stat sounds fun. I my work on that

[Max_Killjoy]

If you make a deal with Asmodeus or Queen Mab, do you really think that you're the one who talked them into it? Or that anyone could talk Cthulhu into anything?

"Are we negotiating?"
"Always."

[Millstone85]

So much love for this post. And yes, that makes for the cool character the PHB hints at.I thank you for the compliment. However, I was trying to justify my earlier statement that an Intlock would be too much like a wizard, especially in that it would diminish the "shortcut" theme. If you got that and still think the class would be better that way, then alright.

[Chronos]

Come to think of it... If a warlock pact is supposed to be a "shortcut to power", then maybe they shouldn't have any key stat? Anywhere you would use your spellcasting ability modifier, use your proficiency bonus, instead (or, if you would use your spellcasting modifier and your proficiency bonus, use double your proficiency).

This would give an out to play a character with all low scores. And it'd probably help balance: Proficiency is usually lower than mainstat at low levels, where warlocks are currently a bit better than other casters, and higher than mainstat at high levels, where warlocks are currently behind other casters.

[Max_Killjoy]

Alright, I am going to make the portrait of an Intlock as it comes to my mind.

She is a student of forbidden arts, of magical fluxes that even wizards consider unwise to interfere with. Perhaps it is alien energies from the farthest reaches of the planes, or the whimsical power of the Feywild, or the malign essence of the Lower Planes. Either way, nothing has ever been handed to her on a platter. There was no strange little creature seeking her as a child to say "Make a contract with me and become a magical girl!", no moustache-and-goatee-twirling dandy wanting a teenager's signature in blood. And if one came now, she would turn them down. She reads, experiments and records as methodically as a wizard would, if they had the courage to face true magic.

Would that make for a cool character? I hope so. Does the PHB's description of the class have elements of this? I concede it. However, I think the dominant flavor of the Chalock is that of a character who took a major shortcut in their pursuit of arcane magic, and now wields that power with little understanding. A very different beast.

There are several flavors of "intlock" that are absolutely in keeping with the greater warlock spectrum, but that don't fit the "charming dabbler" motif that dominates the mechanics if not the fluff.

From this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?575006-Warlock-the-single-class



* Tomelock, dialed to 11. The entity is the book, or is trapped in the book, and makes a mutual agreement with the Warlock to teach them its secrets and help them, in exchange for rescuing it from the stacks in some lost library, or getting it out of a fire set by zealots.

* INTlock, the seeker. Character actively sought out forbidden or lost knowledge, and made contact with something (not even necessarily an entity, could be a plane of existence or strange realm) that imparted power simply through the contact itself.

* The imbued. For some reason, an otherwise careless or trapped entity "touched" the character with power, and then sent them on their way, not caring or not able to "monitor" them after that brief contact.

Each fits, I think, but kinda removes the whole "take my power and do my bidding" thing that Warlock is potentially straight-jacketed by under strict readings.


All those could be INT-based.

[thoroughlyS]

I was trying to justify my earlier statement that an Intlock would be too much like a wizard, especially in that it would diminish the "shortcut" theme.
I disagree, because that implies smart people don't take shortcuts. Desperate people take shortcuts. Warlock is the class your character took because they needed to (except when it isn't). And you could argue in favor of any of the mental stats, based on the lore you want to support. I personally still wish that warlock was INT-based. I also definitely want more pact caster chassis available, although I still waffle on what they should be.

[Mortis_Elrod]

If you make a deal with Asmodeus or Queen Mab, do you really think that you're the one who talked them into it? Or that anyone could talk Cthulhu into anything?

You're not viewing this in the right perspective.

Imagine what would happen if some random guy found the private number of Asmodeus of Mab. They'd be zapped out of principle, the sheer arrogance of thinking they could have any right to communicate with these beings would require them to smite them.

It takes a special kind of personality, to convince them to not only let you live, but to give you power as well.


Edit: Going on from this point, yeah you could be smart and do this but no matter how smart you are thats not going to save you in the face of beings who are much older and have much more experience dealing with mortals. So in this sense i see no other way but to have a personality that calls to them, that gives them pause, that at the very least could be mildly amusing. Because otherwise why would they ever want to find out what would happen if they gave you just a kernal of power. And thats a motivation that could be applied to all patrons.

[Man_Over_Game]

This is kind of a weird idea that's been rattling around in my head for a while now.

What if the Warlock got their Book/Blade/Chain as an arcane focus at level one and didn't get their Patron until level 3? Mechanically this would mean no Patron feature or expanded spell list to start, but they would get the item that largely informs what sort of warlock they are right from the gate. This would also make tweaks to Blade flow quite a bit easier since a player could begin the game with their Gishery rather than having to wait until level three or be shoehorned into Hexblade.

From a fluff standpoint, the Warlock changes significantly. Their spellcasting prowess would still be drawing from otherworldly sources, but it wouldn't be getting handed to them on a platter right off the bat. It's something they've had to pursue. Which, as I understand it, was more of how the Warlock functioned in early play tests as an Int caster before they were bumped to Charisma due to 'but that's different!' public outcry. Before level three would could say that the Warlock has been dabbling in eldritch power sources, but they haven't struck a pact just yet. Maybe they weren't powerful enough to be noticed by a fae lord or a fiendish prince. Or maybe they weren't powerful enough to forge a link to some awful slumbering thing from the void beyond the stars. Either way, once they hit level three the pact happens and things pick up. And I think that could be a major boon to the RP side of things since the forging of that pact becomes an in-game event rather than something relegated to backstory alone.

Thoughts?


I'm definitely the camp that warlocks make more sense as an intelligence base class than Cha.
And sorcerers really should be a constitution based but that would be really hard to balance.
Actually constitution as the casting stat sounds fun. I my work on that




I disagree, because that implies smart people don't take shortcuts. Desperate people take shortcuts. Warlock is the class your character took because they needed to (except when it isn't). And you could argue in favor of any of the mental stats, based on the lore you want to support. I personally still wish that warlock was INT-based. I also definitely want more pact caster chassis available, although I still waffle on what they should be.

A while back, I worked on an extensive list of options for alternate attribute characters, in my Prestige Options homebrew (in the Signature). Several of them include things like:


A Constitution-based Undying Patron (Died and came back better)
A Wisdom-based Hexblade Patron (A sage is possessed by a dark force they were guarding)
An Intelligence-based Great Old One Patron (A mage sacrifices everything for forbidden knowledge)
A Wisdom-based Archfey Patron (A naturalist is approached by a Fey Benefactor)



However, each of these had their own individual requirements to prevent dipping for the sake of a power gain. In other words, these open up narrative builds, while being mechanically balanced, with very little risk of overpowered multiclassing.

Look into my Prestige Options link if you're interested. I extend a challenge to anyone to create an overpowered build using these rules, and let me know what you find.