Surviving 1st Level

[Rerem115]

I've heard that compared to other editions, 5e is really brutal for a 1st level character. Now, I've never had the (mis)fortune to experience this for myself, until now, where the campaign I'm joining is starting there.

Do you guys have any advice, any tips I should know? Is it as lethal as I've heard, and if it is, what can I do to mitigate it?

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've heard that compared to other editions, 5e is really brutal for a 1st level character. Now, I've never had the (mis)fortune to experience this for myself, until now, where the campaign I'm joining is starting there.

Do you guys have any advice, any tips I should know? Is it as lethal as I've heard, and if it is, what can I do to mitigate it?

Be defensive. Be tactical. Use cover. Take short rests. Bring a healer's kit.

5e 1st level is swingy more than it's intentionally brutal. Focus-firing results in dead characters; a bad crit can do so as well. Especially if a DM doesn't understand this or thinks that level = CR is the right balance point (hint--it's not most of the time).

[ImproperJustice]

Yeah.
We survived by scouting a lot, using caltrops, cover and ambushes and even then things could be dicey.

Deadliest fight we had was poking something and fighting four rats in an open room.

[CTurbo]

I don't think I've ever had a 1st level character die. 1st level goes by so fast you're at level 2 before you know it. I think all of my character deaths have happened between levels 2-4.


So basically, I wouldn't really do anything extra special. Being careful is never a bad idea.

[Aussiehams]

Stick together and support each other, and take it slow.

[dragoeniex]

Don't take hits unless you have to = best advice for any non-melee character, and even the melees need to keep it in mind. Avoid fighting fair when possible; others have posted some good tips for that already (caltrops, cover, etc).

Past that, I'd say don't stress it and have fun. Just go in with some backup character concept you like the idea of and let the dice fall how they may. Usually you're not at lv 1 for long.

The only other tip I have is solid for playing in general: don't be so afraid of using your resources that you never do. Would your first level wizard spell make a meaningful difference here? Use it. If you can make one encounter somewhat easier for the team as a whole, then they'll be in better shape to pick up your slack next fight.

You just don't want the whole team blowing everything at once on fights they don't need to.

[Lyracian]

I am currently playing in a retro first edition game and it is a lot easier to die. No death saves just hit zero and die.

2nd and 3rd Ed we usually played to -10 or -1/2 Con was dead.

This edition, other than an unlucky crit, you have to fail 3 saves before you die.

[Grimmnist]

I have not found it to be particularly lethal at level 1 but that is probably dependent on the DM. In the games in which I play we usually level to 2 after just one session which avoids any problems with level one dangers.

If you are concerned about survival some classes are much better at level 1 than others, for example Paladin and Ranger are just worse versions of Fighter at level 1 (at least in terms of combat effectiveness). In my opinion Barbarian and Fighter are by far the strongest at level 1, casters tend to struggle since they don't have many resources yet. There are some amazing spells, at level 1, that don't scale great such as Sleep or Heroism, those can both swing an encounter with a single spell slot.

[OverLordOcelot]

The main vulnerability at level 1 is that a high damage roll, especially a crit, can easily be in 'instant death' territory for an uninjured character. At higher levels, even just second, it's a lot less likely. You're also vulnerable to dying if the DM uses lots of environmental damage or if monsters tend to attack a player who's down; an effect steadily doing X damage per round means one failed death save per round, which is almost always going to be fatal within 3 rounds, and each attack on a downed character is an autoctit for two failed saves.

Other than that, invest in some healing kits so people can keep unconscious characters from dying without having to make a skill check. Play with a reasonable level of caution; a wizard who rushes the guy weilding a 2-handed sword is not going to have a good day. If you're level 1 and the others are higher, mostly stay back even if you're a melee character, you can let them take the hits until you catch up.


DM doesn't understand this or thinks that level = CR is the right balance point (hint--it's not most of the time).

If a DM thinks that level = CR is the right balance point, you're golden. Fights with single CR1 creatures at level 1 are generally pretty easy, a single ghoul or giant octopus can be a bit scary but isn't much of a risk.

[Rukelnikov]

Don't be so preoccupied, 5e is not more deadly at low levels than 2e or 3e (I'd actually say its less deadly), so if you have regularly survived in previous editions, you will probably keep the same ratio of survivability now. As always it is very DM dependant though.

[JackPhoenix]

While I've had characters dropping at 1st level, none of them actually died. I've seen deaths at levels 2-4. I don't especially coddle them, but as mentioned, level 1 is over so quickly characters don't actually have many opportunities to die.

[Spieldog20]

It can definitely happen. The first time I DM'd, early when 5e first came out, a skeleton got a critical hit on a 1st level Bard with low HP and he was killed outright.

It definitely took a little of the wind out of the sails at the table when it happened. I gave him to option to still live after combat ended, but he decided to make a new character anyway.

[napoleon_in_rag]

It has a lot to do with how the "minion" monsters (Orcs Goblins, etc) are designed in 5e. For example, your average orc has more hp than a Level 1 fighter, does 1d12+3 (avg 9) damage with a great axe, and has the "aggressive" ability which allows the orc to spend a bonus action to move 30' towards an enemy.

So lets say a party of 4 lvl 1 PCs enters a 60' by 60' room. There are 4 orcs on the other side of the room. PC and Orcs see each other at the same time so no surprise. If the orcs win initiative, they can move 30' (bonus action), then 30' for their normal movement, then each attack a PC. Even without a crit, 1d12+3 will likely one shot a lvl 1 PC with 1d6 or 1d8 hit dice. So with 4 swings, very likely at least one PC is going down.

So in OD&D or 2e, I would have said 4 Orcs on 4 lvl 1 PCs to be fair. But not in 5e.

I would treat being a lvl 1 PC in 5e like being a lvl 1 mage in OD&D. Hire an NPC to even things out.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It has a lot to do with how the "minion" monsters (Orcs Goblins, etc) are designed in 5e. For example, your average orc has more hp than a Level 1 fighter, does 1d12+3 (avg 9) damage with a great axe, and has the "aggressive" ability which allows the orc to spend a bonus action to move 30' towards an enemy.

So lets say a party of 4 lvl 1 PCs enters a 60' by 60' room. There are 4 orcs on the other side of the room. PC and Orcs see each other at the same time so no surprise. If the orcs win initiative, they can move 30' (bonus action), then 30' for their normal movement, then each attack a PC. Even without a crit, 1d12+3 will likely one shot a lvl 1 PC with 1d6 or 1d8 hit dice. So with 4 swings, very likely at least one PC is going down.

So in OD&D or 2e, I would have said 4 Orcs on 4 lvl 1 PCs to be fair. But not in 5e.

I would treat being a lvl 1 PC in 5e like being a lvl 1 mage in OD&D. Hire an NPC to even things out.

4 Orcs (CR 1/2) against 4 level 1 PCs is a double-Deadly fight (adjusted XP = 800, threshold for Deadly is 400). 2 is a Hard fight. 1 is an Easy fight.

[Contrast]

Don't take hits unless you have to = best advice for any non-melee character, and even the melees need to keep it in mind.

I think one of the important things is to remind people that at level 1, there really isn't that much difference between characters in terms of their specialisations yet. You can't just all hide behind the fighter, he probably only has a couple of points of AC on you and a couple of HP. Depending on what you're fighting that might not even equate to one extra hit to down. I once played in a game where everyone told me I was crazy for running my dragon sorc into the middle of a group of enemies ahead of the fighter until I pointed out I had more HP and a higher AC than they did, took the dodge action and soaked up all their attention.

[sophontteks]

I think one of the important things is to remind people that at level 1, there really isn't that much difference between characters in terms of their specialisations yet. You can't just all hide behind the fighter, he probably only has a couple of points of AC on you and a couple of HP. Depending on what you're fighting that might not even equate to one extra hit to down. I once played in a game where everyone told me I was crazy for running my dragon sorc into the middle of a group of enemies ahead of the fighter until I pointed out I had more HP and a higher AC than they did, took the dodge action and soaked up all their attention.
I found the opposite. Frontliners can start at 18 AC with a shield and that's really hard for early enemies to deal with outside of a crit. Then with crits, they are less likely to be instantly killed

Taking the dodge action like you did will dramatically reduce the chance of that crit. People don't use dodge enough.

[stoutstien]

At my tables my npc cannot critical until lv 3. Sometimes I just use the average damage roll also if I want to hold back a tad.

[Sigreid]

Just do what you should always be doing anyway, everything you can to make the fight as one sided in your favor as you can get. Try to strike first. Try to strike brutal. Try to choose the best ground for your side to fight on. Minimize the enemy's ability to fight back as much as possible. If the enemy manages to get you on their ground where they are holding all the good cards, run away until you can get them on ground you want to fight them on.

[JackPhoenix]

I found the opposite. Frontliners can start at 18 AC with a shield and that's really hard for early enemies to deal with outside of a crit. Then with crits, they are less likely to be instantly killed

Taking the dodge action like you did will dramatically reduce the chance of that crit. People don't use dodge enough.

I think there are two reasons for that. Many things you'll fight at level 1 are weak enough to go down in one hit, so killing them and stopping them from attacking in the first place is viable, and frontliners generally have better at-will damage options than spellcasters. And there are no MMORPG or 4e-like aggro mechanics. Dodging won't help you protect the rest of your party. To be a target, you must both look like a viable target and like a threat. Dodge makes you less viable target, because you're hard to hit in the first place, and you've just made it even tougher (and unlike your HP value, opponents can see when you shift your focus entirely to defense), and less of a threat, as you're spending your action on self-defense instead of attack. Intelligent foes will ignore you and go after other, easier targets. You're left with opportunity attack, and you better hope the tactical situation allows you to threaten more than one foe (not that you can make more than one OA, but most smart enemies won't want to be the first one moving).

So, if you're facing zombies, which are tough enough to survive few hits and stupid enough to attack the closest target instead of acting intelligently, dodge is great tactic. If you're fighting goblins, it's terrible, because they are squishy enough to go down in one hit, they are smart enough not to waste their effort on hard-to-hit target, and they are mobile enough so you can't keep them near you without Sentinel.

[Tanarii]

So in OD&D or 2e, I would have said 4 Orcs on 4 lvl 1 PCs to be fair. But not in 5e.
I don't recall 2e, but in Classic orcs were dangerous, typically a 50-50 shot as to who hit first and killed the other in a fight between a level 1 fighter and an Orc. A 50-50 shot of winning isn't "fair". (Edit: technically it is, but I mean in modern rpg common usage regarding chance of PCs getting killed in a fight. :smallamused: )

I like that Orcs and Gnolls and Hobgoblins are deadly 1-to-1 in 5e. They aren't supposed to be mooks until you've gained a few levels, maybe level 5 or so. Gives them a nice old-school feel.

[Contrast]

I found the opposite. Frontliners can start at 18 AC with a shield and that's really hard for early enemies to deal with outside of a crit. Then with crits, they are less likely to be instantly killed

Taking the dodge action like you did will dramatically reduce the chance of that crit. People don't use dodge enough.

A CR1/4 goblin has +4 to hit. About half at likely to hit the AC18 fighter than a generic light armour wearing Dex 14 person and much more likely to hit both than 'crits only'. Which means being in combat with two goblins is just as dangerous for him as being in combat with one goblin is for the 'squishy' character. What I'm saying is if there are a group of goblins, its much better to not let all of them mob the fighter and watch him go down rather than distract at least some of them to give him a reasonable chance of actually surviving.

Obviously goes double for common enemies at low level such as wolves and kobolds which really double down on the ganging up.

I just get frustrated when I see wizards with full HP and Mage Armour up disengage away from a combat because they've got it in their head that wizards shouldn't be in melee, using up their action and leaving the fighter with 1HP as the only combatant or people letting one guy get hammered in melee because they built a 'ranged' character - sometimes its best to share the pain around and particularly at level 1, no-one is strong enough to survive being focus fired.

Of course you can just ignore all of the above and listen to the best advice for surviving level 1 which is to ensure there are several casters in the party with sleep and the party only consists of elves and half-elves :smallwink:

[Asmotherion]

I've heard that compared to other editions, 5e is really brutal for a 1st level character. Now, I've never had the (mis)fortune to experience this for myself, until now, where the campaign I'm joining is starting there.

Do you guys have any advice, any tips I should know? Is it as lethal as I've heard, and if it is, what can I do to mitigate it?

DO NOT:
-Engage in melee if you're not designed for it.
-Use up all your spell slots on blasting if a caster; Cantrips do almost the same damage and you probably can use your spell slot for something better than damage your opponent.
-Underestimate the Dodge action. it can save lives if used at the right moment.
-Spam the Dodge Action. Contribute to the fight as much as possible and save it for when you're incomfortably in melee.
-Forget Cover Rules. Natural Cover can save your life even at higher levels. And since you'll probably either have a cantrip or a bow and 5e needs no feat to break your movement between attacks you can attack and take cover again.
-Overthink it. Play to have fun. Most DMs don't include death threat 'till you are at least level 3. Levels 1-3 shouldn't be more than 3 sessions and i'm probably streatching it. Discuss how your DM deals with death of a character and based on the information you get don't get too attached to your character.

DO:
-Hope that your DM has a good grasp of the CR system. if they don't you're probably screwed anyway.
-Remember Action Ecconomy and Resource Managment. if you have spell slots try to optimise their usefullness. Before casting a spell ask yourself "do i cast it because i think it looks cool or because it contributes to the fight". if you don't have a plan just cast a cantrip; You loose 0 resourses doing so and still contribute to the fight...

[Zhorn]

And if your DM awards XP for roleplay, lay it on thick. Every scrap you can muster will get you out of 1st level faster.

[Citan]

I've heard that compared to other editions, 5e is really brutal for a 1st level character. Now, I've never had the (mis)fortune to experience this for myself, until now, where the campaign I'm joining is starting there.

Do you guys have any advice, any tips I should know? Is it as lethal as I've heard, and if it is, what can I do to mitigate it?
Hi!

First of all, during session 0, try to have everyone (players & DM) agree on what kind of experience you're looking for.
If everyone is ready to lose characters abruptly, then just play the game to your fullest.
If everyone would like to keep their characters, then it may fall upon DM to either guide you a bit by giving strong hints about fights you can take and ones you should flee, or adapt encounters slightly, or give you some NPC that can strongly support you in resilience (heal/buff/etc).
Also, ensure that DM actually rewards *every* interesting/smart thing you make and not just monster kills (which any proper DM would do imo).

Otherwise, as far as RAW goes...
1. Be a coward.
2. Be smart.
3. Be a frigging smarty COWARD!!!!

Thing is, sh** can happens even if you play smart. Nobody (at level 1 at least) is immune to a critical from an enemy, and advancing recklessly means you can quickly be targeted by half a dozen attacks, with a single of them being potentially enough to deplete your HP.

So...
1. Try to prepare encounters as much as possible. This is heavily DM dependent and campaign dependent but the idea is "get as much information as possible". Without metagaming if possible. :)

For example, if you have a Cleric in party and going against undead, it should be reasonable for a DM to consider that Cleric just knows all weaknesses about them.

Let's know say you have been tasked with taking down a group of bandits.
- What kind of bandits are they? Goblins, Humans, Orcs?
- How many of them? What are their usual strategies? Can you know where they hide?

If you have instead to bring down a monster, spend as much time as you can afford studying lore in libraries or listening to local legends, unless someone in your group would have all legitimity to already know all about it from class/background.

2. Be ghosts. Be as much careful as you may be within the time limit a quest may have fixed: trying to Stealth as often as possible, always having one (or two) guys looking out for traps and enemies, etc. Scout enemy places and guys when you can.

3. Try diplomatic way to resolve conflict as often as possible. Sometimes it will hasten the way to violence, but everytime it works is less risk upon your survival.
Diplomatic in the "broadest" meaning: it may be actually intimidating/persuading opponents, but it may also be just making them focus on something/someone else than you as their primary threat.
And it should net you some XP too. :)

4. Buy healer's kits (especially if you have no Druid with Goodberries nor anyone with Spare the Dying). Healing Words is nice but precious. Potions are nice but stupidly expensive for level 1 characters. Even without related feat, those kits can at least keep someone alive at end of a fight.

5. Try to always have a backup plan or a runaway strategy wherever you go.

6. When fight is just unavoidable or you want it...
- Respect your supposed role as well as others's. If you are a Wizard, don't rush into the frontlines. Actually, whatever class you are (even if you are a Barbarian), don't rush into the frontlines. Try to all keep a pace that allows one ally to stabilize another in a single turn if need be. If someone has vision/land hazard spell, don't hesitate to use it to divide and conquer, provided you don't bother your friends. ^^
- Try to avoid having more than 2 enemies being able to reliably target the same ally whatever happens, even if he's a frontliner. You can achieve this by using aforementioned spells, inflicting debuffs or putting enemies prone, set up some covers with Minor Illusion and Mold Earth...
- Do NOT engage in melee unless you have a high chance of moving away without suffering opportunity attack (because of an ability, because high AC and enemy prone, or because you plan on killing it with your blow). Being a melee-tailored guy does not mean you have to act stupid about it. If you're a Barbarian, use thrown weapons. If you're a Monk, well, same. XD
If you are a DEX guy, use ranged weapons until switching to melee simply has become a requirement (like some enemy closed in and engaged you in close fight).

In short: "until you're level 3 (I'd even say level 4-5 personally because I'm a scaredy-cat ;)), consider that any single attack have the theorical potency to down you and plan whatever you do from that assumption".

I sadly have the feeling all that I said is useless because it's just basic, general advice. Hope that can help though. :)

[MrStabby]

I've heard that compared to other editions, 5e is really brutal for a 1st level character. Now, I've never had the (mis)fortune to experience this for myself, until now, where the campaign I'm joining is starting there.

Do you guys have any advice, any tips I should know? Is it as lethal as I've heard, and if it is, what can I do to mitigate it?

It depends on your DM. Is your DM "fair", "friendly" or "tough"?

If the DM wants to help you survive the danger levels then they may do things like spacing encounters out, giving you more time to rest and so on. The trick is to give the DM some good excuses to help you. Ask "what's the safest inn in town?" to help ensure you don't get attacked at night when low on resources. Burn resources to stay alive - why take risks if you can be pretty confident your DM will let you rest when you need to. Take spells (if a caster) that mitigate bad luck rather than those objectively best (well for clerics/druids that are not locked in). Aid can be a great spell for this level even though bless is generally a better use of the action and spell slot. The DM is not trying to kill you but the dice might.

At the other end of the scale your DM is a hardass in an unforgiving world. No help there to survive; you have to fight every step of the way. Here you are more likely to die because the enemies outfought you rather than just dumb luck. Pick the tactically best options you can and make sure everyone has a healing kit. A bit of low level side questing to get some more equipment might help, enlisting the help of NPCs or buying some attack dogs to get you through the low levels could be a good use of gold.

[hymer]

If you character dies at level 1 in the first session, you lose next to nothing. Make a new character and carry on. Unless you read out your background story or something (should you have one), you can pretty much copy it if you want to.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am currently playing in a retro first edition game and it is a lot easier to die. No death saves just hit zero and die.
Oddly, AD&D 1e had the bleeding out introduced to the game. Original game did not. 2d edition AD&D went back to dead at 0 HP, but some DM's chose to keep the 1e convention alive at their table. Hope you are enjoying the retro games.

As far as surviving first level, play as a team, play/fight tactically, don't just barge into a room and expect to defeat the monsters. Set up the battle in your favor.
Bottom Line: Fight smarter, not harder.

[Citan]

If you character dies at level 1 in the first session, you lose next to nothing. Make a new character and carry on. Unless you read out your background story or something (should you have one), you can pretty much copy it if you want to.
Thanks to you, I now have a concept of a bunch of artificially created clones of some guy set up by a powerful evil Wizard, that can even hope to get freedom only if they manage to overcome a deadly challenge... XD

[MThurston]

I played in a one shot and had two people trying to loot while the other 3 in the party were still being attacked.

So stay together and support each other. If you have a chance to revive someone, do it.

[Resileaf]

A few weeks ago, my sorcerer was on watch at night. Her perception is crap, and she got surprised by a warg. Taken down in a single attack, and got a 1 on my death save.

Somehow, I survived.

[Tanarii]

Oddly, AD&D 1e had the bleeding out introduced to the game. Really? I don't ever recall playing with it in AD&D, but I played classic more. Don't suppose you have a page or even just book reference? (Not doubting, I'm curious and want to look it up.)

[napoleon_in_rag]

I don't recall 2e, but in Classic orcs were dangerous, typically a 50-50 shot as to who hit first and killed the other in a fight between a level 1 fighter and an Orc. A 50-50 shot of winning isn't "fair". (Edit: technically it is, but I mean in modern rpg common usage regarding chance of PCs getting killed in a fight. :smallamused: )

I like that Orcs and Gnolls and Hobgoblins are deadly 1-to-1 in 5e. They aren't supposed to be mooks until you've gained a few levels, maybe level 5 or so. Gives them a nice old-school feel.

Well, lets do a comparison between an Original AD&D Orc Vs a 5e Orc as listed in the manuals. The Orc's opponent in both cases will be a typical 1st Lvl Fighter with Chainmail, Sword, Shield, a 16 STR, and a 14 CON.

Armor Class

A 5e Orc has an AC of 13. For AD&D, you had to look at a table to covert the AC into a hit number. So a AD&D Orc had an AC of 6 which means the minimum roll of a PC was 14. However ability bonuses worked a lot differently in OD&D. In 5e, a 16 STR gets you a +3 to hit. In AD&D, you get +0.
Fighter minimum roll to hit the Orc:
AD&D: 14 or 35% of the time
5e: 10 or 55% of the time
Conclusion: AD&D Orcs are harder to hit

Hit Points

AD&D Orcs had 1HD for 1d8 hp for an Average of 4.5. The AD&D Fighter can do 1d8+1 damage for an average of 5.5hp. The AD&D fight the orc will one shot on a roll of 4 or better or 62.5% of the time. The 5e Orc has 2d8+5 hp or 14 hp. The 5e Fighter can do 1d8+3 damage for an average of 7.5hp. The 5e fighter can only one shot the orc on a crit if he rolls an 11 on a 2d8. 5%(Crit%chance) * 33%(11dmg%chance) = 1.6% chance of one shotting a 5e orc.
Chance of the Lvl 1 fighter killing the orc in one blow:
AD&D: 62.5%
5e: 1.6%
Conclusion: 5e Orcs are way tougher.

Attack Rolls

The AD&D fighter has an AC of 4. AD&D Orc gets +0 to hit. Looking at the matrix, the to hit number is 15. The 5e fighter has an AC of 18. The 5e Orc has +5 to hit.
Orc minimum roll to hit the Fighter:
AD&D: 15 or 30% of the time
5e: 13 or 40% of the time
Conclusion: 5e Orcs will hit more often.

Damage

The AD&D Orc does 1d8 damage/ 4.5 avg. The AD&D Fighter has an avg of 5.5hp. The AD&D Orc will one shot on a roll of 6 or better or 37.5% of the time. The 5e Orc does 1d12+3 damage/ 9.5 avg. The 5e Fighter has 12hp. The 5e Orc will one shot the fighter on a roll of 9 or better or 33% of the time. It's actually higher when you factor in Crit.
Chance of the Orc killing the Fighter in one blow:
AD&D: 37.5%
5e: 33.3%
Conclusion: AD&D Orcs do a little more damage.

Average Damage per Swing & Average Rounds to Kill

Average Damage per Swing combines 'chance to hit' and 'average damage' into one number. For example, if your PC hits 50% of the time and does on average 10 damage, your average damage per swing is 5hp. This means an average of 2 swings to kill a 10hp opponent. This will combine the above calculations.

AD&D Fighter: .35 * 5.5hp = 1.9hp
AD&D Orc: .30 * 4.5hp = 1.4hp
5e Fighter: .55 * 7.5hp = 1.9hp
Crit Damage: .05 * 4.5hp = .2hp
Total: 2.1hp
5e Orc: .40 * 9.5hp = 3.8hp
Crit Damage: .05 * 6.5hp = .3hp
Total: 4.1hp

AD&D Fighter: 1.9 hp. It will take 2.4 swings to kill an AD&D Orc with 4.5hp.
AD&D Orc: 1.4 hp. It will take 3.9 swings to kill an AD&D Lvl 1 Fighter with 5.5 hp.
5e Fighter: 2.1 hp. It will 6.7 swings to kill a 5e Orc with 14 hp.
5e Orc: 4.1 hp. It will take 2.9 swings to kill a 5e Lvl 1 Fighter with 12 hp.

Conclusion

So, your assertion is wrong. In AD&D, an Orc vs Lvl 1 Fighter was not a 50-50 split. It would take a pretty big fluke of the dice for an Orc to win that encounter. A Lvl 1 fighter vs 2 orcs was closer to a fair fight. This makes sense because, in Chainmail, Orcs were foot soldiers in the army or equivalent to a Lvl 0 Soldier.

EDIT: Tanarii correctly pointed out that, in AD&D, a Lvl 1 Fighter has 1d10 hp, not 10 hp. In every campaign I have ever played in since the early 80s, it was always a house rule that you got full hp at level 1 but that wasn't RAW until 3e, maybe. I reran the calcs above and an AD&D level 1 fighter still has an advantage over an orc, winning somewhere around 2/3 of the time.

Contrast that with 5e. A Lvl one fighter should never go toe to toe with an Orc because an Orc will kill the fighter in one blow 33% of the time. It takes a major fluke of the dice for a 5e Fighter to win. In 5e, Orcs are roughly equivalent to a Lvl 2 Fighter.

[Tanarii]

AD&D fighters have 1d8 (1d10?) hit points, plus maybe 1-2 from Con. On average, they can easily be one shot by an Orc.

[napoleon_in_rag]

AD&D fighters have 1d8 (1d10?) hit points, plus maybe 1-2 from Con. On average, they can easily be one shot by an Orc.

You are right, its 1d10. The "max hp at first level" has been a house rule for so long that I forgot. I used a 14 CON in the example above so no bonus. In AD&D you generally didn't get a bonus unless a stat was 15 or higher. I will re run the numbers.

[Tanarii]

You are right, its 1d10. The "max hp at first level" has been a house rule for so long that I forgot. I used a 14 CON in the example above so no bonus. In AD&D you generally didn't get a bonus unless a stat was 15 or higher. I will re run the numbers.even as is, I can see a 5e Orc is more deadly than a 1e Orc, which I already considered (roughly) equivalent of a 1e fighter. Or at least a normal man (so 1d8 HD and leather+shield). A 5e Orc is definitely more than that. And it wasn't my intention to say AD&D orcs were as dangerous as 5e orcs, just that they weren't mooks.

I like the 5e way. The so-called "mook" races should be a deadly threat to non-adventurers, and still very dangerous for starting adventurers (in 5e, Tier 1), as befits their typical in-world reputation.

[Guy Lombard-O]

even as is, I can see a 5e Orc is more deadly than a 1e Orc, which I already considered (roughly) equivalent of a 1e fighter. Or at least a normal man (so 1d8 HD and leather+shield). A 5e Orc is definitely more than that. And it wasn't my intention to say AD&D orcs were as dangerous as 5e orcs, just that they weren't mooks.

Honestly, I think where 5e is far more forgiving is in the spell casting classes. I remember playing that AD&D 1st level wizard, and they were the absolute definition of a glass cannon (well, a cannon with only 1 round of ammo). There's just no comparison to the 5e wizards at first level, either offensively or defensively. Survivability in 5e is many, many times greater.

[napoleon_in_rag]

even as is, I can see a 5e Orc is more deadly than a 1e Orc, which I already considered (roughly) equivalent of a 1e fighter. Or at least a normal man (so 1d8 HD and leather+shield). A 5e Orc is definitely more than that. And it wasn't my intention to say AD&D orcs were as dangerous as 5e orcs, just that they weren't mooks.

I like the 5e way. The so-called "mook" races should be a deadly threat to non-adventurers, and still very dangerous for starting adventurers (in 5e, Tier 1), as befits their typical in-world reputation.

It makes sense that early D&D Orcs were weaker because in Gygax's "Chainmail" fantasy appendix, Orcs were roughly equivalent to foot soldiers in a typical Medieval Army. So in AD&D, BECMI, etc, an Orc is roughly equivalent to a 0 Lvl Soldier.

I have never fooled around with 5e's Mass Combat Unearthed Arcana but I imagine 100 5e Orcs will massacre 100 5e 0 Lvl Soldiers.

[napoleon_in_rag]

Honestly, I think where 5e is far more forgiving is in the spell casting classes. I remember playing that AD&D 1st level wizard, and they were the absolute definition of a glass cannon (well, a cannon with only 1 round of ammo). There's just no comparison to the 5e wizards at first level, either offensively or defensively. Survivability in 5e is many, many times greater.

True, you do get a lot more spells but they are less effective. For Example, the sleep spell.

In 5e, a Lvl 1 Sleep spell puts 5d8 hp of creatures to sleep. This MIGHT put 2 orcs to sleep. For a "Coup de Grace", you still need to make an attack roll with advantage to kill the sleeping orc and they wake up if you don't kill them.

In AD&D, a Lvl 1 sleep spell will put 4d4 orcs to sleep. Plus, you can automatically slay any sleeping orc without making any rolls.

[Willie the Duck]

As others have said, 5e is not particularly notable in being lethal at 1st level, compared to most other editions. 3.0 (but not 3.5) was kind of easy if you fought exclusively goblins, kobolds, and orcs, etc. 3.5 changed default orcs to be using two-handed weapons (IIRC), and that made them much more deadly. 4e was it's own thing and I believe 1st level was not noticeably different from other levels. What 5e at 1st level is noticeable about is how much more likely character death and TPKs are, compared to the rest of 5e (which, if using the default rules, is fairly forgiving, excepting of course that the DM can just increase encounter difficulty to match).


Oddly, AD&D 1e had the bleeding out introduced to the game. Original game did not. 2d edition AD&D went back to dead at 0 HP, but some DM's chose to keep the 1e convention alive at their table.

2e actually had a more forgiving death's door setting than 1e. It was gated, of course, as many things were in 2e, behind an "(optional)" tag. The big difference, IIRC, was that you didn't have the same onerous recovery time if you did go below 0 and survive.


Really? I don't ever recall playing with it in AD&D, but I played classic more. Don't suppose you have a page or even just book reference? (Not doubting, I'm curious and want to look it up.)

1e AD&D DMG, p. 82

[Tanarii]

1e AD&D DMG, p. 82Thank you!

Definitely Gygaxian in nature, with restoring to 0 or more hps resulting in a 1d6 turn coma followed by a week of rest. Plus going to -6 or more hps resulting in horrible scarring or loss of limb(s). So you're out of the current adventure, if not retiring.

[Willie the Duck]

Definitely Gygaxian in nature, with restoring to 0 or more hps resulting in a 1d6 turn coma followed by a week of rest. Plus going to -6 or more hps resulting in horrible scarring or loss of limb(s). So you're out of the current adventure, if not retiring.

Also symptomatic to the design aesthetic of the game as it moved from disparate dungeon (with whichever players and characters available tonight participating) towards a more ongoing campaign. Time-out was a serious consequence, as you had things to do, treasure/xp to acquire, and monthly upkeep to pay (same reason why Gygax would have been scratching his head over the 15 mwd complaints of today).

[Guy Lombard-O]

True, you do get a lot more spells but they are less effective. For Example, the sleep spell.

In 5e, a Lvl 1 Sleep spell puts 5d8 hp of creatures to sleep. This MIGHT put 2 orcs to sleep. For a "Coup de Grace", you still need to make an attack roll with advantage to kill the sleeping orc and they wake up if you don't kill them.

In AD&D, a Lvl 1 sleep spell will put 4d4 orcs to sleep. Plus, you can automatically slay any sleeping orc without making any rolls.

Granted, that one spell hit harder. But there was no mage armor that I recall. You didn't have the spells/slots to do a Shield. You had no cantrips. You had 1d4 HP, no armor, and some darts/daggers to throw. Any brush with melee combat was probable death.

[Tanarii]

Also symptomatic to the design aesthetic of the game as it moved from disparate dungeon (with whichever players and characters available tonight participating) towards a more ongoing campaign. Time-out was a serious consequence, as you had things to do, treasure/xp to acquire, and monthly upkeep to pay (same reason why Gygax would have been scratching his head over the 15 mwd complaints of today).At the very least, it means you can't bring that character on the dungeon exploration being organized that starts just a few days later.

[Willie the Duck]

At the very least, it means you can't bring that character on the dungeon exploration being organized that starts just a few days later.

Right, hope you were training up another character, waiting in the wings.

[druid91]

I am currently playing in a retro first edition game and it is a lot easier to die. No death saves just hit zero and die.

2nd and 3rd Ed we usually played to -10 or -1/2 Con was dead.

This edition, other than an unlucky crit, you have to fail 3 saves before you die.

If you get dealt enough damage to equal half your health + however many hit points you have left, or more, it's instant death. Not to mention that if something hits you while you're down, it takes away two of those saves.

[Tanarii]

Right, hope you were training up another character, waiting in the wings.
If you're trying to play a single character per player in a single party in AD&D or Classic, you were Doing It Wrong (TM).

Of course, we all did it wrong back then, which is why we all ignored half the rules.

[OverLordOcelot]

True, you do get a lot more spells but they are less effective. For Example, the sleep spell.

In 5e, a Lvl 1 Sleep spell puts 5d8 hp of creatures to sleep. This MIGHT put 2 orcs to sleep. For a "Coup de Grace", you still need to make an attack roll with advantage to kill the sleeping orc and they wake up if you don't kill them.

In AD&D, a Lvl 1 sleep spell will put 4d4 orcs to sleep. Plus, you can automatically slay any sleeping orc without making any rolls.

On the other hand, you could only memorize one spell in a spell slot - so while the sleep spell was absurdly effective, it was THE spell that you had prepared. If you wanted to detect magic or comprehend languages, you'd need to wait until the next day and then use that as your one spell for the day. If the dungeon was populated with undead, your spell just sat in your head wasted, it's not like you could also prepare burning hands. Also, while it's easier than 5e, you don't automatically slay all of the sleeping orcs, you do have to go and kill each one one at a time, and the spell only lasted for 5 rounds per level. If your party was small or occupied fighting the non-sleeping orcs, you could easily have several wake back up before you could get to them.

And yes, sleep was absurdly powerful - but other than that your 1st level magic user was pathetic. 1d4 hit points (none of this 'max at first level'), CON bonus was at best +2, no mage armor or physical armor, likely no DEX bonus to AC, if you wanted to use Shield for defense you'd have to give up all of your spells at 1st level of half at level 2, and that would only last for one combat. For attacks, you didn't get to toss a 1d10 fire bolt with a decent chance to hit, you were hurling a dart or dagger with a THAC0 of (effectively) 21 (only one of them though, as you only got one proficiency). Or you could take a -5 on top of that and use a crossbow without proficiency. When people talk about 1st level MUs being a one-shot glass cannon, they aren't exaggerating at all.

[Rukelnikov]

Well, lets do a comparison between an Original AD&D Orc Vs a 5e Orc as listed in the manuals. The Orc's opponent in both cases will be a typical 1st Lvl Fighter with Chainmail, Sword, Shield, a 16 STR, and a 14 CON.

AD&D Fighter: .35 * 5.5hp = 1.9hp
AD&D Orc: .30 * 4.5hp = 1.4hp
5e Fighter: .55 * 7.5hp = 1.9hp
Crit Damage: .05 * 4.5hp = .2hp
Total: 2.1hp
5e Orc: .40 * 9.5hp = 3.8hp
Crit Damage: .05 * 6.5hp = .3hp
Total: 4.1hp

AD&D Fighter: 1.9 hp. It will take 2.4 swings to kill an AD&D Orc with 4.5hp.
AD&D Orc: 1.4 hp. It will take 3.9 swings to kill an AD&D Lvl 1 Fighter with 5.5 hp.
5e Fighter: 2.1 hp. It will 6.7 swings to kill a 5e Orc with 14 hp.
5e Orc: 4.1 hp. It will take 2.9 swings to kill a 5e Lvl 1 Fighter with 12 hp.

Conclusion

So, your assertion is wrong. In AD&D, an Orc vs Lvl 1 Fighter was not a 50-50 split. It would take a pretty big fluke of the dice for an Orc to win that encounter. A Lvl 1 fighter vs 2 orcs was closer to a fair fight. This makes sense because, in Chainmail, Orcs were foot soldiers in the army or equivalent to a Lvl 0 Soldier.

EDIT: Tanarii correctly pointed out that, in AD&D, a Lvl 1 Fighter has 1d10 hp, not 10 hp. In every campaign I have ever played in since the early 80s, it was always a house rule that you got full hp at level 1 but that wasn't RAW until 3e, maybe. I reran the calcs above and an AD&D level 1 fighter still has an advantage over an orc, winning somewhere around 2/3 of the time.

Contrast that with 5e. A Lvl one fighter should never go toe to toe with an Orc because an Orc will kill the fighter in one blow 33% of the time. It takes a major fluke of the dice for a 5e Fighter to win. In 5e, Orcs are roughly equivalent to a Lvl 2 Fighter.

Your calcs aren't right:

5e Fighter: .55 * 7.5hp = 1.9hp 4.125hp

Also some things are missing, the 5e fighter adds 2 points of proficiency, so he's hitting on a 8, or 65% of the time, also the fighter either has +2 to attack or +1 to AC (since he's going S&B). Lets go with +2 Damage. Finally, you also have to take into account that said fighter has second wind, so that's about 6.5 more hp (assuming he's not one shotted).

Fighter DPR: .65 * 9.5 = 6.175
crit = .05 * 4.5 = 0.225
15 / 6.4 = 2.34 rounds

5e Orc: .40 * 9.5hp = 3.8hp
Crit Damage: .05 * 6.5hp = .3hp
13 / 4.1 = 3.17 rounds

Even without taking into account Second Wind, the 5e fighter has the odds over the Orc. Also the 5e fighter will be good enough for a second fight after an hour, the AD&D fighter will take days to recover.

Also, the major survavility problems were for the spellcasters, I never played before AD&D 2e, but back then you had 4 hp as a wizard and 10 AC (using MA meant you had no more spells for the day), and most attacks, even at low level, dealt 1d8, so you had at least a 50% chance to go down (or die) on every attack.

[OverLordOcelot]

Also, the major survavility problems were for the spellcasters, I never played before AD&D 2e, but back then you had 4 hp as a wizard and 10 AC (using MA meant you had no more spells for the day), and most attacks, even at low level, dealt 1d8, so you had at least a 50% chance to go down (or die) on every attack.

This isn't quite correct - Mage Armor wasn't in the core 1st edition books, so it wasn't even an option. Shield worked in between modern shield and mage armor, giving you AC4 (AC16 in 5e terms) against melee attacks for five rounds, so your big defensive option was 'do nothing all day, have a decent AC for one fight'. Also officially you didn't have 4hp as a wizard, the 'max HP at starting level' didn't become a rule until later editions (I think 3rd) so you actually only had D4 HP.

[GlenSmash!]

If you have a chance to revive someone, do it.

This is really good advice. Spare the dying and Healers kits are very useful at low levels, when in combat healing is more scarce.

[Rukelnikov]

This isn't quite correct - Mage Armor wasn't in the core 1st edition books, so it wasn't even an option. Shield worked in between modern shield and mage armor, giving you AC4 (AC16 in 5e terms) against melee attacks for five rounds, so your big defensive option was 'do nothing all day, have a decent AC for one fight'. Also officially you didn't have 4hp as a wizard, the 'max HP at starting level' didn't become a rule until later editions (I think 3rd) so you actually only had D4 HP.

You literally quoted me saying "I never played before AD&D 2e", what makes you think I was talking about 1e?

[OverLordOcelot]

If you're trying to play a single character per player in a single party in AD&D or Classic, you were Doing It Wrong (TM).

Of course, we all did it wrong back then, which is why we all ignored half the rules.

Yeah, you have to remember the evolution of the game. It started from people playing miniatures wargames where you'd control an army deciding they wanted to run fantasy adventures. So the first iteration of the rules had the idea that you'd lose multiple characters routinely, and you just drop them when they hit zero instead of worrying about trying to recover them or long-term injuries or the like. Rather quickly the idea of having a 'you' on the battlefield became popular, so there started being more rules to advance and preserve the captain/high priest/wizard/whatever, as did using smaller parties with individual stats. The wargaming philosophy behind the game really hung around in the rules until 3e, though lots of people houseruled to support a playstyle that was more 'you control one PC who is your avatar and you expect to play him for a long time and advance him' and there were definite shifts in the game.

"Drop to zero, you're dead, remove the figure from the board" makes perfect sense if you have 2-3 guys controlling a dozen PCs, you don't want to fiddle around a lot when one of the meat shields who might not even have a name takes a big hit. The 'one shot magic item' wizard is fine if you've got two of them and a pair of archers under your control. A priest only tossing heals isn't a problem when you're also running the guys getting healed. None of that works well in a 'modern' style game - and that's modern as in, 80's or later, lol.

[OverLordOcelot]

You literally quoted me saying "I never played before AD&D 2e", what makes you think I was talking about 1e?

Does it really matter that I said 1e instead of "1e and 2e"? Mage armor wasn't in 2nd edition either (at least not the PHB, could have been in an expansion), and shield worked the same way there. 2e also rolled for first level HP instead of automatically giving max, even though 'max HP at first level' was a common house rule. Mage Armor and max HP at 1st level weren't core rules until 3e; I mentioned 1e because that's what I'm more familiar with but what I said applies to 2e also.

[JoeJ]

Does it really matter that I said 1e instead of "1e and 2e"? Mage armor wasn't in 2nd edition either (at least not the PHB, could have been in an expansion)

It's in the PHB for 2e, but the name of the spell is Armor, not Mage Armor.

[OverLordOcelot]

It's in the PHB for 2e, but the name of the spell is Armor, not Mage Armor.

LOL I had completely forgotten the Armor spell and it's hilarious limitation - it goes away after the 'wearer' takes 8+1/level damage. Unless you're using the optional 'below zero' rules, that's 'dead' amount of damage until you're around 4th level assuming average rolls for HP and a +1 con bonus.

[Rukelnikov]

Does it really matter that I said 1e instead of "1e and 2e"? Mage armor wasn't in 2nd edition either (at least not the PHB, could have been in an expansion), and shield worked the same way there. 2e also rolled for first level HP instead of automatically giving max, even though 'max HP at first level' was a common house rule. Mage Armor and max HP at 1st level weren't core rules until 3e; I mentioned 1e because that's what I'm more familiar with but what I said applies to 2e also.

As already pointed out, it existed in 2e. And you basically said the same thing I did, you only got one spell, do you really wanna spend it in MA? The only valid point you raised was the not maxing hp at 1st lvl, we did play with that rule, but its not like it makes much of a diference to the wizard its 1.5 hp in average anyway.

[OverLordOcelot]

As already pointed out, it existed in 2e. And you basically said the same thing I did, you only got one spell, do you really wanna spend it in MA? The only valid point you raised was the not maxing hp at 1st lvl, we did play with that rule, but its not like it makes much of a diference to the wizard its 1.5 hp in average anyway.

I didn't say I was disagreeing with your point, just that I was adding some technical correction for the benefit of people who aren't familiar with how hilariously bad low level magic users were back in the day. Sorry that it upset you for whatever reason.

[Rukelnikov]

I didn't say I was disagreeing with your point, just that I was adding some technical correction for the benefit of people who aren't familiar with how hilariously bad low level magic users were back in the day. Sorry that it upset you for whatever reason.

My bad, sorry.

[JoeJ]

LOL I had completely forgotten the Armor spell and it's hilarious limitation - it goes away after the 'wearer' takes 8+1/level damage. Unless you're using the optional 'below zero' rules, that's 'dead' amount of damage until you're around 4th level assuming average rolls for HP and a +1 con bonus.

Right. And if you're dead, you don't really need a better armor class. OTOH, there's no time limit; it lasts until you take that amount of damage. You can cast it at home and then recover that spell slot before you go out adventuring.

[OverLordOcelot]

Right. And if you're dead, you don't really need a better armor class. OTOH, there's no time limit; it lasts until you take that amount of damage. You can cast it at home and then recover that spell slot before you go out adventuring.

You're right - I think we had it go away on a short rest (so no one ever used it) but you can cast it long before you even go out on an expedition. If I ever play a 2e magic user again, I will keep that in mind.

[Teagana]

I'd say it's swingy, but it should go by quickly. In my 2 campaigns experience, one as a player and one as a DM, the party levelled to 2nd and the end of the first session.

For players, I'd say be aware that you can go down very quickly, and healers should save all their spells for healing.

For DMs, I'd say to be aware of how fragile the party is and use kiddie gloves until they get to 2nd at least.

You'll need a rest after any encounter, guaranteed, and a health potion is a great reward.

[Man_Over_Game]

Early on, the Dodge action has a lot of value. If your team has more ranged combatants than theirs, have the front line act as a defensive wall, use the Dodge action, and start mitigating that damage. If the enemy deals 5 damage and you dealt 10, that's a winning turn right there.

[tchntm43]

In my experience so far, 5e is much more forgiving to early level characters than older editions, ESPECIALLY WIZARDS. At least RAW, 2e didn't automatically let you start with the full die roll value for hit points. You had to roll just like on further levels. Characters beginning the game with 1 hit point were a real thing, and for Wizards that was 25% of the time because they used a d4 for hitpoints. The house rule alternative that is the official rule now in 5e wasn't even listed as a variant rule in the 2e PHB.

You also now get 3 death saves instead of outright dying, and you can avoid having to even roll the death saves just by having someone cast a cure spell on the downed character.

Also RAW, you had far less flexibility in character selection in 2e. They mention 4d6, drop the lowest as a variant, but the default was 3d6 each, and no rearranging. And to make it much, much worse, races and classes all had ability requirements, and you rolled your ability scores before choosing race and class. It was nearly impossible to roll up stats that would allow you to play a Paladin. So if you wanted to play a Fighter, and your first 3d6 roll came up as a 7, well too bad, guess you're not playing a Fighter. This meant that generally there was a lot less flexibility in the makeup of the party, and that meant potential problems with certain encounter situations.

Wizards started with 1 spell slot and no cantrips ("Cantrip" at that time was, in fact, a first level spell that was basically useless-grade Wish). So they basically had 1 round in battle to be useful and then they just had to hide and do nothing the rest of the time until they rested a full night to recover that 1 spell slot.

Also you spent a lot more time at 1st level than you do now. It's fairly easy to pass 1st level in 5e on the first adventure. In 2e, it could take 2-4 adventures.

[noob]

The main vulnerability at level 1 is that a high damage roll, especially a crit, can easily be in 'instant death' territory for an uninjured character. At higher levels, even just second, it's a lot less likely. You're also vulnerable to dying if the DM uses lots of environmental damage or if monsters tend to attack a player who's down; an effect steadily doing X damage per round means one failed death save per round, which is almost always going to be fatal within 3 rounds, and each attack on a downed character is an autoctit for two failed saves.

Other than that, invest in some healing kits so people can keep unconscious characters from dying without having to make a skill check. Play with a reasonable level of caution; a wizard who rushes the guy weilding a 2-handed sword is not going to have a good day. If you're level 1 and the others are higher, mostly stay back even if you're a melee character, you can let them take the hits until you catch up.



If a DM thinks that level = CR is the right balance point, you're golden. Fights with single CR1 creatures at level 1 are generally pretty easy, a single ghoul or giant octopus can be a bit scary but isn't much of a risk.

It is not exact: 4 kobolds is theoretically a Cr 1 encounter that can easily down a player character. and kill it

[stoutstien]

It is not exact: 4 kobolds is theoretically a Cr 1 encounter that can easily down a player character. and kill it

Or just a goblin + opportunity for cover/ concealment.

[OverLordOcelot]

It is not exact: 4 kobolds is theoretically a Cr 1 encounter that can easily down a player character. and kill it

Where are you getting that 4 kobolds is a CR1 encounter? I don't remember anything in the DMG that changes their CRs in a way that would make four of them a CR1 encounter.

Any group of enemies can down a PC and kill it if the DM chooses to have them focus on killing the player instead of taking down other party members, that's a function of the way death saves work, so 'can easily down a player character and kill it' isn't anything noteworthy. That doesn't really have anything to do with the CR system either - two attacks from anything is enough to kill an unconscious PC.

[noob]

Where are you getting that 4 kobolds is a CR1 encounter? I don't remember anything in the DMG that changes their CRs in a way that would make four of them a CR1 encounter.

Any group of enemies can down a PC and kill it if the DM chooses to have them focus on killing the player instead of taking down other party members, that's a function of the way death saves work, so 'can easily down a player character and kill it' isn't anything noteworthy. That doesn't really have anything to do with the CR system either - two attacks from anything is enough to kill an unconscious PC.

kobolds are cr 1/4.

Also if you kill a player character per encounter after 4 encounters none of the original player characters are dead and at level 1 you can not resurrect so you can be capped at level 1 forever by that which means that as a race kobolds have an interest in making sure low level parties die out quickly(since else they gain levels and then become able to resurrect each other).
So it involves a bit of communication between kobolds but it is totally a logical thing to do.
(even more if the dead adventurers does not magically gets replaced within the week)

What is the best between a skirmish the adventurers recovers from in literally one hour and a skirmish that kills an adventurer?
obviously the latter.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It is not exact: 4 kobolds is theoretically a Cr 1 encounter that can easily down a player character. and kill it

Against 4 level 1 characters, 4 CR 1/8 (not CR 1/4) kobolds is a medium fight (200 adjusted XP, exactly threshold for a Medium encounter). You should be able to do 6 of those per day with minimal risk as long as you get short rests 1/3 and 2/3 of the way through the day.

Now if the kobolds are played a la Tucker's kobolds they're going to kill PCs. And that's unfun for anyone except a killer DM (or maybe a party that signed up for that exactly).

Note: Encounters do not have CRs in 5e. Monsters do, encounters don't.

Edit: Deadly starts at 7 kobolds, mainly because of the multipliers for having more than 6 enemies.

[JackPhoenix]

kobolds are cr 1/4.

That's not how encounter building works. You can't add CRs together to get "encounter CR" (which doesn't exist in the first place, only encounter difficulty). 4 kobolds are medium difficulty encounter for party of 4 level 1 characters.

Edit: stupid shadow monks...

[2D8HP]

I've heard that compared to other editions, 5e is really brutal for a 1st level character. Now, I've never had the (mis)fortune to experience this for myself, until now, where the campaign I'm joining is starting there.

Do you guys have any advice, any tips I should know? Is it as lethal as I've heard, and if it is, what can I do to mitigate it?


I wouldn't say that 5e is more lethal than other versions of D&D I've played, you get more HP to start, and often your PC may actually buy healing potions, and not just find them.

I don't remember much character death in 5e (unlike the conga-line of dead PC's in 1e), but I have had some of my characters have to make Death Savings Throws, once because he walked into a trap (it's a rare DM who still uses them, if you find one send 'em my way PLEASE!), so don't be "point man", but most of the time my characters drop it's because like a chump I put my PC in melee to take the heat off a comrade-in-arms.

Don't do that!

Stay out of melee!

Play a wood-elf, get the mobility feat, and/or the Misty Step spell, and keep out of range!

Use a longbow and "kite" your foes instead, or be smart and just out run them!

Melee is for chumps.

Don't be a chump!

[Tanarii]

Melee is for chumps.Specifically, those other chumps in your party. Keep them between you and your enemies.

Strategy of sacrificing your allies while you make off with the loot may need some adjustment if you don't have a clear line of retreat.

[2D8HP]

Specifically, those other chumps in your party. Keep them between you and your enemies.


:confused: Again with the bluetext @Tanari of what should be LOUD AND PROUD!!!


Strategy of sacrificing your allies while you make off with the loot may need some adjustment if you don't have a clear line of retreat.


Now that's mighty fine advice!

Always keep an eye on the exit, your life depends on it.

Also, never volunteer to "scout ahead", 'cuz "strength in numbers" or some such.

Also foes are less of a threat when they stop moving, an effective means to achieve this is for a chump obliging comrade to stand next to the foe (Barbarians and Paladins are good candidates for this) while you put an arrow in them with sneak attack damage (you did get a level in Rogue right? If not do what you must to get Misty Step for high tailin' purposes).

[OverLordOcelot]

kobolds are cr 1/4.

Actually, they're CR 1/8 - if they were CR 1/4 I would figure the idea is that the GM was just adding CRs together to get that '4 kobolds = CR1', but I really wasn't sure how you were getting to 'add their CRs, then multiply it by 2'. There's nothing in the book that says you add CRs together, and nothing that does the 'and multiply by 2' bit. And they're just not deadly unless the DM has them deliberately trying to kill unconscious PCs, which isn't a problem with low levels or the CR system - if you have enemies regularly go in to kill PCs when they drop, you're going to have a lot of dead PCs because it's easy to kill unconscious characters if you try.

[tchntm43]

There's nothing in the book that says you add CRs together, and nothing that does the 'and multiply by 2' bit.

There is, actually. DMG, p. 82, under "Encounter Multipliers". For an encounter with 3-6 monsters, you apply a x2 multiplier to the CR total for the purpose of gauging the difficulty of the encounter (but not the experience awarded).

[JackPhoenix]

There is, actually. DMG, p. 82, under "Encounter Multipliers". For an encounter with 3-6 monsters, you apply a x2 multiplier to the CR total for the purpose of gauging the difficulty of the encounter (but not the experience awarded).

There's no "CR total". Encounter difficulty is derived from XP value, not CR.

[PhoenixPhyre]

There is, actually. DMG, p. 82, under "Encounter Multipliers". For an encounter with 3-6 monsters, you apply a x2 multiplier to the CR total for the purpose of gauging the difficulty of the encounter (but not the experience awarded).

That's a multiplier on the xp, not cr.

[OverLordOcelot]

There is, actually. DMG, p. 82, under "Encounter Multipliers". For an encounter with 3-6 monsters, you apply a x2 multiplier to the CR total for the purpose of gauging the difficulty of the encounter (but not the experience awarded).

There isn't actually, as other people have pointed out you do an XP total, not a CR total. There isn't anywhere in the DMG that says to add CRs together at any point, or to multiply them for that matter. Quote the part that says to add CRs together if you want to prove me wrong, but you won't be able to as it's just not there.

[Tawmis]

I've heard that compared to other editions, 5e is really brutal for a 1st level character. Now, I've never had the (mis)fortune to experience this for myself, until now, where the campaign I'm joining is starting there. Do you guys have any advice, any tips I should know? Is it as lethal as I've heard, and if it is, what can I do to mitigate it?

Others made all the suggestions - but the biggest one I would emphasize is "team work."

I currently DM a game (for a bunch of new people to 5e)... the Paladin is doing the right thing by melee... but the two Clerics are too busy nuking... the bard is meleeing (rather than using songs)... The Wizard is doing the right thing and staying back and nuking... but as a result, the Paladin tends to go down because the Clerics aren't keeping him healed... and the bard's not inspiring him, or debuffing the enemies...

Team work can make or break a party quickly.

[tchntm43]

There's no "CR total". Encounter difficulty is derived from XP value, not CR.

But CR and experience value are intrinsically linked (for example, a monster that is worth 200 XP is always a CR 1 monster, and every CR 1 monster is worth 200 XP), so what's the difference? This is splitting hairs between two things which have a different scale but measure the same property, difficulty of the monster. This is like arguing that doubling a recipe measured in cups doesn't imply that you double the recipe if you measure in liters instead.

[Tanarii]

But CR and experience value are intrinsically linkedYes , but XP does not scale linearly with CR. The sum of the XP isn't necessarily the XP for the sum of the CRs.

(Edit: to be clear, this means you can't convert the XP difficulty of an encounter back into a CR.)


for example, a monster that is worth 200 XP is always a CR 1 monster, and every CR 1 monster is worth 200 XP), so what's the difference? The difference is this particular example just so happens that the sum of the XP is the same as the XP for the sum of the CRs. That's not a general rule

[PhoenixPhyre]

But CR and experience value are intrinsically linked (for example, a monster that is worth 200 XP is always a CR 1 monster, and every CR 1 monster is worth 200 XP), so what's the difference? This is splitting hairs between two things which have a different scale but measure the same property, difficulty of the monster. This is like arguing that doubling a recipe measured in cups doesn't imply that you double the recipe if you measure in liters instead.

As should be obvious, 4 CR 1 creatures is not an apt encounter for a level 8 party (ie it's not CR 8). Not even close. 4 CR 1 creatures is a hard encounter for 4 level 4 PCs.

[guachi]

AD&D Fighter: 1.9 hp. It will take 2.4 swings to kill an AD&D Orc with 4.5hp.
AD&D Orc: 1.4 hp. It will take 3.9 swings to kill an AD&D Lvl 1 Fighter with 5.5 hp.
5e Fighter: 2.1 hp. It will 6.7 swings to kill a 5e Orc with 14 hp.
5e Orc: 4.1 hp. It will take 2.9 swings to kill a 5e Lvl 1 Fighter with 12 hp.


Your average damage for a 5e fighter is way off as someone else pointed out. 65% chance to hit, assuming a straight-from-the-MM Orc. Average damage on a non-critical hit is 1d8+3 (Str) + 2 (dueling) or 9.5 per hit. .60*9.5 = 5.7. Average damage on a critical is 2d8+3+2 or 14. 0.05*14 = 0.70. Total average damage per swing is 6.4.

That's 2.3 swings to kill a 5e Orc with 15 hp (not 14).

Without a critical, the 5e fighter can't one-shot an Orc. He can do it on a critical hit 7/16 of the time. Since he gets a critical hit 1/20th of the time a one-shot kill on an Orc will happen 7/320th of the time or about 2% of the time.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

...That's 2.3 swings to kill a 5e Orc with 15 hp (not 14).
Well, if his older edition math is correct (I'm not sure of that given the holes people have picked in his 5th ed math) then in all the editions and decades of change a fighter has gone from 2.4 to 2.3 swings to kill an orc at 1st level. That's far more consistent than I could have imagined.

[Mordaedil]

5e isn't actually that different from other editions mathematically. Attack bonuses have changed, but hit points by classes and damage delivered by weapons have remained fanatically consistent. 4e is the only edition that broke from this tradition.

[Willie the Duck]

Well, if his older edition math is correct (I'm not sure of that given the holes people have picked in his 5th ed math) then in all the editions and decades of change a fighter has gone from 2.4 to 2.3 swings to kill an orc at 1st level. That's far more consistent than I could have imagined.


5e isn't actually that different from other editions mathematically. Attack bonuses have changed, but hit points by classes and damage delivered by weapons have remained fanatically consistent. 4e is the only edition that broke from this tradition.

Yes, that one specific comparator has been the same. Likewise, a 1st level fighter surviving a single orc has remained close to the same as 1974 when the orc did 1d6 damage vs. the fighting man's 1d6+1 (plus small chance of +1 more for Con) hp, but had a low chance of hitting. Those numbers have stayed close to the same. Other rules (what happens when you reach 0, can you withdraw easily if injured, how many orcs will you find together, will your cleric ally have a cure spell at 1st level) have changed that actual situation significantly, so one can't just throw those raw numbers at the wall and have anything meaningful stick. But it is definitely contributing evidence.

[tchntm43]

Yes , but XP does not scale linearly with CR. The sum of the XP isn't necessarily the XP for the sum of the CRs.

Ahhhhhh. Yep, I see now.

[AHF]

A good way to get close to 2e play is to try the Baldur’s Gate series. You’ll start that off at first level with one companion. If you don’t kite enemies, then you’ll get some sense of what role playing an AD&D wizard was like. A commoner with a spell is basically it and over time you become a near godlike figure of power dwarfing the rest of the party.

[Tanarii]

You also now get 3 death saves instead of outright dying, and you can avoid having to even roll the death saves just by having someone cast a cure spell on the downed character.
Going back a few posts, I think this gives good insight into ways you can die in 5e:

1) get hit for massive damage = current hp + max hps. Usually via crit.
2) hit again after being dropped to 0 hps. IMX usually by DMs that roll multiple creatures' attacks or one creature's multiattacks at once. Or maybe your DM has enemies fight brutally and targets downed PCs.
3) TPK. PCs reduced to 0 hps, and the enemy either lets them bleed out or finishes them.

The first is far more a danger in Tier 1, unless your DM likes using over-leveled solos. Your best bet for mitigating is persuade your cleric to plug a narrow passageway with their high AC / low damage body and Dodge, then shoot from behind them. :smallamused:

The second is more a danger at higher levels. That's when creatures with multiattacks become more common, and when hoards of weaker enemies can be built on an encounter 'budget'.

IMO the third is on the PCs to make contingency plans to avoid. Unfortunately at low levels, that usually amounts to "throw down your weapons and surrender and hope they let you live". For several editions, D&D has had a situation where if you don't start running the first round of combat, it's too late to run by the time you realize they are too powerful for you to defeat. 5e is no different.

[tchntm43]

A good way to get close to 2e play is to try the Baldur’s Gate series. You’ll start that off at first level with one companion. If you don’t kite enemies, then you’ll get some sense of what role playing an AD&D wizard was like. A commoner with a spell is basically it and over time you become a near godlike figure of power dwarfing the rest of the party.

The key difference with Baldur's Gate (great game, btw) is that if you die, you just reload the last save.

[JackPhoenix]

The key difference with Baldur's Gate (great game, btw) is that if you die, you just reload the last save.

And it's not turn based (not really), and enemy pathfinding was... dubious.

Still, kiting wolves and bears on the road between Candleekeep and Friendly Arms Inn was... fun.

[Rukelnikov]

The key difference with Baldur's Gate (great game, btw) is that if you die, you just reload the last save.

Yup, and you more often than not had better stats than when playing TT2e, and you still had to reload quite a few times (who gave so many fire arrows to goddamned Kobolds? Bloody Iron Throne)

[Chronos]

The second situation (enemies targeting downed PCs) can also come up when the party's been around long enough to develop personal enemies, who want to see you dead as a goal in itself, and not just as obstacles to some other plan. But usually that's to one particular PC, who the rest of the party can just put a little more effort into defending, and it usually doesn't happen until after you have access to at least Revivify.

[Samayu]

Do you guys have any advice, any tips I should know? Is it as lethal as I've heard, and if it is, what can I do to mitigate it?

If the enemies are able to focus their fire on a single party member, that member will go down. Try not to let this happen. And hope your DM doesn't see this as acceptable tactics against a 1st level party.

We lost a guy at first level in a game last year. He won initiative and opened the door. Then the bad guys went. They ran over to the door and attacked everyone they could reach. Which was just that one guy, who was standing in the doorway. The DM didn't really have any options at that point.

[Samayu]

In the discussions about 1e vs. 5e, you were talking about orcs. How about characters. Wizards had 1d4 hit points, and thieves 1d6. I remember having a 1HP wizard on my team, back in the day. And that wizard could only cast one spell a day.

[Tanarii]

We lost a guy at first level in a game last year. He won initiative and opened the door. Then the bad guys went. They ran over to the door and attacked everyone they could reach. Which was just that one guy, who was standing in the doorway. The DM didn't really have any options at that point.
The DMs option was not to start combat (roll initiative) with a closed door. They could have just as easily chosen to start it with all PCs just inside the door in marching order, or the PCs front line of combat just inside the door, or with the PC line of combat just on their side of the door, or the guy opening the door off to the side with the PCs and enemies having clear line of sight through the door. To give some alternatives.