Dragon Prince II: Double the Princes for Double the Fun!

[Flying Turtle]

So the new season of Dragon Prince just dropped so now seems like a good time to open a new thread.

I’ve only seen the first episode so far but I’m already liking it quite a bit. The overhead shot of the moon nexus was beautiful and I’m thoroughly on board with Calleum’s “screw the rules, I’ll blaze my own path” response to the revelation that he can’t do magic unaided.

I also quite dug the little trick they pulled with the flute at the end of the episode. I thought the flute was just background but when Claudia walked in I realized it was actually diegetic. And also magic.

[Narkis]

I was just about to start a new thread. I'm about halfway in, and it seems to have improved quite a bit over the first. The visuals are on point, we get to see and learn more of the world, and they even fixed the animation that was my one major complaint.

[JadedDM]

I guess every season will only be 9 episodes then? I had thought the first season was so short because it was more of a testing ground, but I guess not.

Anyway, I really liked the second season, although it failed to answer the two questions I was hoping it would answer. Maybe season 3 will. Namely:

1.) Was the king really killed, or did Viren swap his body with the bird?
2.) How is it Ezran can speak with animals, when everything we've been told about magic runs counter to that?

[Chromascope3D]

Dragon Prince II: Double the Frames :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, the animation was the main thing holding Season 1 back for me, so it's good that they listened to fan feedback and changed it for season 2. It feels so much nicer now.

[Flying Turtle]

Dragon Prince II: Double the Frames :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, the animation was the main thing holding Season 1 back for me, so it's good that they listened to fan feedback and changed it for season 2. It feels so much nicer now.

Crap, that's way better than the title I gave this thread.

Well, disappointment in myself aside, I finished the season. Great stuff. My eyes nearly popped out of my skull when King Harrow started talking about John Rawl's Veil of Ignorance. That caught me off guard in the best way and bodes extremely well for how deep they're actually going to go into the question of being a good leader.

However, I do have a couple questions.



What is Amaya's shield made of? Early on in the season she some how managed to block a sun sword with it. A sun sword so hot that while she was blocking it, it was melting through the solid stone cliff face behind her.


When Callum was unconscious from his use of dark magic and Rayla was worried he might not make it she started to say something. It sounded like she was saying that she loved Callum and if that's the case does she mean in a romantic way? I've never got the impression that she had romantic feelings for Callum but that's a rather odd confession to make when you are only talking about platonic love. Then again, Rayla not exactly the most touchy feelly kind of person so maybe for her platonic love is a hard thing to say.

Also calling it now. Ezran has developed an arcana for an as of yet unknown magical source and that is why he can telepathically communicate with animals. Maybe it will be some sort of counter part to dark magic. He draws from life as oppose to death.

[JadedDM]

The show is littered with little references to other media, but I think the Sailor Moon shout out this season was probably among the best.


When Callum was unconscious from his use of dark magic and Rayla was worried he might not make it she started to say something. It sounded like she was saying that she loved Callum and if that's the case does she mean in a romantic way? I've never got the impression that she had romantic feelings for Callum but that's a rather odd confession to make when you are only talking about platonic love. Then again, Rayla not exactly the most touchy feelly kind of person so maybe for her platonic love is a hard thing to say.

She was acting kind of jealous when Claudia was with Callum.

My prediction for next season:

Did you notice in the last episode, that King Harrow's bird escaped through the window? What do you think the odds are that he'll find Ezran. And Ezran can talk to animals, so...

[Telonius]

The show is littered with little references to other media, but I think the Sailor Moon shout out this season was probably among the best.

I don't know, "Don't you forget about me!" was pretty on point. Daughter looked over at the two of us laughing with a, "Man, parents are weird" look on her face, just as it should be. :smallbiggrin:


She was acting kind of jealous when Claudia was with Callum.

My prediction for next season:

Did you notice in the last episode, that King Harrow's bird escaped through the window? What do you think the odds are that he'll find Ezran. And Ezran can talk to animals, so...

Or, since it's not actually a bird, finds he can't talk to it, raising suspicion?

[Lleban]

Oh man i was on the fence after watching the first season, but this season has definitely grabbed me.

[Narkis]

I'm just going to leave this here: The Dragon Prince | Alternate Intro (Soren Version) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l8iwstuLMg)

[Peelee]

Only up to episode 4, but still loving it as much as the last season. Claudia has quickly become my favorite character in season 2, though. I like how conflicted she is.

[Chromascope3D]

Just finished the season. Calling it now:
Humans aren't born with a connection to a specific arcana because they have the potential to learn all the arcana, avatar-style.

[Zmeoaice]

Just finished the season. Calling it now:
Humans aren't born with a connection to a specific arcana because they have the potential to learn all the arcana, avatar-style.

Except Aarvos the startouched elf can also master all the arcana as well

[Flying Turtle]

Except Aarvos the startouched elf can also master all the arcana as well

Yeah, that was a weird bit of info since it suggests that Callum isn't the first person to develop a arcana he was not born with. So why was the Moon Nexus guardian so certain he couldn't do it? Did she just assume humans were incapable of developing new arcana because they aren't born with one? Is Aarvos and his development of arcana just not well known? Or is he some kind of rarity who was born with all six arcana so he didn't actually develop any?

[Chromascope3D]

Actually, I'd just assumed they'd been using dark magic, but thinking back about it now, I guess they were using primal runes to cast. Hmmm...

[Lemmy]

Maybe Aarvos is a master of all Arcanas but still needed primal stones to cast the spells.

[Peelee]

So in S1E1, they say Xadia used to be a single land, rich in magic, and a human mage discovered a seventh source of magic. The humans were then driven into the west. Based on that intro, it sure seems like humans should be able to do magic innately. Maybe they were deliberately cut off from the primal sources as a punishment? Or their ability has become repressed somehow? There is a thousand-year gap, plenty of time for their former abilities to pass into legend.

Also, are we all agreed that the the mirror is a prison?

[Flying Turtle]

Actually, I'd just assumed they'd been using dark magic, but thinking back about it now, I guess they were using primal runes to cast. Hmmm...

In his letter to Callum King Harrow mentions that Aarvos, whose was a previous owner of Callum's cube, was a master of all six primal sources.


Maybe Aarvos is a master of all Arcanas but still needed primal stones to cast the spells.

That..., should have been obvious to me. That makes a lot more sense.


So in S1E1, they say Xadia used to be a single land, rich in magic, and a human mage discovered a seventh source of magic. The humans were then driven into the west. Based on that intro, it sure seems like humans should be able to do magic innately. Maybe they were deliberately cut off from the primal sources as a punishment? Or their ability has become repressed somehow? There is a thousand-year gap, plenty of time for their former abilities to pass into legend.

Also, are we all agreed that the the mirror is a prison?

I agree the mirror is probably a prison but I'm a little lost on how the intro suggests that humans can use magic innately. Wasn't the entire impetus for dark magic that humans wanted a way to do magic that didn't require primal stones? Both Claudia and the Moon Nexus guardian straight up say that human's aren't born with magic, although neither of them knew that arcana could be developed so maybe they're not the best authorities on this matter. Although, in their defense, Callum may be one of first people to ever actually develop an arcana. He may even be the first.

[Lemmy]

So in S1E1, they say Xadia used to be a single land, rich in magic, and a human mage discovered a seventh source of magic. The humans were then driven into the west. Based on that intro, it sure seems like humans should be able to do magic innately. Maybe they were deliberately cut off from the primal sources as a punishment? Or their ability has become repressed somehow? There is a thousand-year gap, plenty of time for their former abilities to pass into legend.
Maybe it's been so long ago that people forgot humans can do magic at all (and whoever is still alive since that time prefers to hide that fact)... Or maybe the old human mages also uses primal stones. That'd allow them to use magic even without having an arcana.



Also, are we all agreed that the the mirror is a prison?
Seems like the most likely possibility, yes... Although it'd be a bit too predictable, so maybe not?

[Chromascope3D]

In his letter to Callum King Harrow mentions that Aarvos, whose was a previous owner of Callum's cube, was a master of all six primal sources.

Ah, okay, I forgot that bit.

Also, I assumed that dark magic itself was the seventh source, which was why Xadia pushed all of the humans out. In which case, they aren't using magic innately, but extracting into the arcana from other living things.

[Peelee]

I agree the mirror is probably a prison but I'm a little lost on how the intro suggests that humans can use magic innately. Wasn't the entire impetus for dark magic that humans wanted a way to do magic that didn't require primal stones? Both Claudia and the Moon Nexus guardian straight up say that human's aren't born with magic, although neither of them knew that arcana could be developed so maybe they're not the best authorities on this matter. Although, in their defense, Callum may be one of first people to ever actually develop an arcana. He may even be the first.
We're told later that humans can't do magic innately, but Callum soon disproves this, and there's as yet no explanation for Ezran to be able to talk to animals, a trait that no other humans seem to have either. So that's clearly not an absolute.

Meanwhile, the intro tells us that all creatures in Xadia are magical, and that humans are from Xadia. It's not laid out in great detail (intentionally, I suspect), but either the Western land wasn't magic and the humans were exiled there as punishment to remove their connection to magic, or the humans were exiled there and it was somehow then de-magicked as an entire region. Regardless, there's nothing in there to suggest that humans weren't innately magical to begin with, and Callum (and, IMO, Ezran) both imply the opposite.

[Pex]

I like despite it is supposed to be a kids show an adult can watch it and be entertained, if you enjoy the genre.

Naturally the Queen had to defeat the King in the flashback warrior training. Can't have the good guy male defeat the female after all. :smallyuk:

[Flying Turtle]

We're told later that humans can't do magic innately, but Callum soon disproves this, and there's as yet no explanation for Ezran to be able to talk to animals, a trait that no other humans seem to have either. So that's clearly not an absolute.

Meanwhile, the intro tells us that all creatures in Xadia are magical, and that humans are from Xadia. It's not laid out in great detail (intentionally, I suspect), but either the Western land wasn't magic and the humans were exiled there as punishment to remove their connection to magic, or the humans were exiled there and it was somehow then de-magicked as an entire region. Regardless, there's nothing in there to suggest that humans weren't innately magical to begin with, and Callum (and, IMO, Ezran) both imply the opposite.

While the intro does say that Xadia was rich in magic, it doesn’t say all creatures there are magical. We also know that while the humans were exiled to the western lands and the western lands seem to be devoid of dragons and elves, they are not, even in the present, with out magical creatures. Claudia and Soren spend a portion of the first season collecting magical creatures from around the western lands for their location spell.

With this in mind, I imagine the humans were exiled to the west because it was and is less magically dense, although I think you are correct in that they kept the exile vague for a reason and there is far more to it than we have seen.

As for Callum and Ezran’s abilities, I would argue that Callum isn’t able to do magic innately, even now. He was only able to use sky magic after familiarizing himself with it using the primal stone, gaining a physical appreciation and sense for it via sailing and spending time in storms, and finally by meditating on the nature of the sky and weather as a global phenomenon. He can use magic certainly but it wasn’t innate, especially compared to the way elves are just born with their arcana. Ezran’s abilities, I suspect, are born from a similar understanding of animals that he developed over time. My theory is he has developed an arcana for living creatures and is able to use them as a source, much like dark magic but not requiring death by virtue of his arcana granting him a direct connection. Perhaps his is the true seventh source and dark magic is just a perversion.

[Chromascope3D]

I like despite it is supposed to be a kids show an adult can watch it and be entertained, if you enjoy the genre.

Naturally the Queen had to defeat the King in the flashback warrior training. Can't have the good guy male defeat the female after all. :smallyuk:

Yeah, I don't see a problem with that. She was described as a warrior queen, after all.

[Peelee]

Naturally the Queen had to defeat the King in the flashback warrior training. Can't have the good guy male defeat the female after all. :smallyuk:
Like how Callum defeated Claudia and chained her up? Or how Runaan was stomping Rayla until he realized it was a desparate ploy to buy time? :smallamused:

While the intro does say that Xadia was rich in magic, it doesn’t say all creatures there are magical. We also know that while the humans were exiled to the western lands and the western lands seem to be devoid of dragons and elves, they are not, even in the present, with out magical creatures. Claudia and Soren spend a portion of the first season collecting magical creatures from around the western lands for their location spell.

With this in mind, I imagine the humans were exiled to the west because it was and is less magically dense, although I think you are correct in that they kept the exile vague for a reason and there is far more to it than we have seen.

As for Callum and Ezran’s abilities, I would argue that Callum isn’t able to do magic innately, even now. He was only able to use sky magic after familiarizing himself with it using the primal stone, gaining a physical appreciation and sense for it via sailing and spending time in storms, and finally by meditating on the nature of the sky and weather as a global phenomenon. He can use magic certainly but it wasn’t innate, especially compared to the way elves are just born with their arcana. Ezran’s abilities, I suspect, are born from a similar understanding of animals that he developed over time. My theory is he has developed an arcana for living creatures and is able to use them as a source, much like dark magic but not requiring death by virtue of his arcana granting him a direct connection. Perhaps his is the true seventh source and dark magic is just a perversion.

In the boat, when Callum asks Rayla about magic in Xadia, she confirms that practically everything is infused with it and matching at it being everywhere is like marvelling at nature being everywhere in the west. I don't think this is a literally correct statement anymore than her saying humans can't do magic is, but it does lend credibility that Xadia is heavily steeped in magic, significantly more so than the west.

[Pex]

Yeah, I don't see a problem with that. She was described as a warrior queen, after all.

Long story.

Individually for the scene's sake, not a problem. The problem is the trope. The conversation was fine. They didn't need to be sparring to have it.

[Chromascope3D]

I dunno, it's nice to have something going on in the background while they're conversing. It is a show for kids, after all, and it's good to have some visual stimulation for the younger ones that can't necessarily follow the conversation.

[Flying Turtle]

Like how Callum defeated Claudia and chained her up? Or how Runaan was stomping Rayla until he realized it was a desparate ploy to buy time? :smallamused:


In the boat, when Callum asks Rayla about magic in Xadia, she confirms that practically everything is infused with it and matching at it being everywhere is like marvelling at nature being everywhere in the west. I don't think this is a literally correct statement anymore than her saying humans can't do magic is, but it does lend credibility that Xadia is heavily steeped in magic, significantly more so than the west.

I interpreted that as being a reference to how the six primal forces, which are the source of magic, are everywhere and make up everything. This is quite different than everything having magical ability but given how vague Rayla’s statement is I could absolutely be way off base.

[tonberrian]

Of course, the reason that the west is lower in magic now could be the humans, for generations, hunting down magical creatures for dark magical power. Using them all up.

[Peelee]

I interpreted that as being a reference to how the six primal forces, which are the source of magic, are everywhere and make up everything. This is quite different than everything having magical ability but given how vague Rayla’s statement is I could absolutely be way off base.

To be fair, of course, so could I.

[Pex]

I dunno, it's nice to have something going on in the background while they're conversing. It is a show for kids, after all, and it's good to have some visual stimulation for the younger ones that can't necessarily follow the conversation.


It's a pet peeve of mine.

The problem is not the female winning. The problem is the female always wins. The Punisher Season 2 opener was a nice reprieve of the trope, but it's getting off topic. Let's move on.

[Peelee]

It's a pet peeve of mine.

The problem is not the female winning. The problem is the female always wins.

Like how Callum defeated Claudia and chained her up? Or how Runaan was stomping Rayla until he realized it was a desparate ploy to buy time? :smallamused:
It's almost as if it's not a trope here, and some people can best other people regardless of their genders. What a tweest!

[Chromascope3D]

It's almost as if it's not a trope here, and some people can best other people regardless of their genders. What a tweest!

I mean, she was raised to be a warrior alongside her sister (whom also now commands their most elite army), so I think I can stomach her being a better warrior than the king, who undoubtedly had to split his education amongst a wider field.

She got killed by a dragon anyway.

[Peelee]

I mean, she was raised to be a warrior alongside her sister (whom also now commands their most elite army), so I think I can stomach her being a better warrior than the king, who undoubtedly had to split his education amongst a wider field.

Plus, maybe the king just wasn't that good at combat in any event. He certainly didn't do much against the golem martially, but did act as a general/strategist.

[Lemmy]

Of course, the reason that the west is lower in magic now could be the humans, for generations, hunting down magical creatures for dark magical power. Using them all up.
That's a really good point...

[Metahuman1]

Ok, Rather appreciated the Sailor Moon reference early on. Major points there!

Got some actual, meaningful character development for Claudia and Soren, and that was legitimately appreciated. And there not actually running with "Ok, Soren is an extremely physically inclined and not terribly smart dude, there for, he's automatically a horrible horrible person who will do pretty much any bad thing if he get's it in his thick skull there's a benefit too him.". He's not saint either certainly, but there's legitimate conflict and struggle going on with him.

And there's actual Layer's going on with Claudia, she's NOT just blindly evil. Hell, we even see her feeling BAD about using her powers.




Callum's progress was interesting, and I found it more interesting that all the magic experts are telling him "It's have an uber super duper rare Primal Stone, which almost certainly won't be something you can get, or Dark Magic, or nothing.", and then he's able to figure out that that's not true. Indeed, given that Elves seem to be holding a grudge against humanity, I have too wonder if maybe there's not more too that going on. Maybe humanity's thing was "A moon elf can never learn none moon magic, a sun elf can never learn none sun magic, ext, but a human? A human can choose and learn any one of them if they opt too.". And that's been willfully repressed since the split and banishment? Sure, that's not consistent with what's his name in the mirror, but then again I can't imagine there's not a LOT more going on with that guy than we've seen so far.

Speaking of, can we just throw some points too the child queen for a great depiction of a smart kid made to grow up WAY to fast, and for believable reasons? (Incidentally, Ezrn also got a HUGH shot of development this season. And he's handling it brilliantly! =) )

Also, Verin's been more or less reduced to a pawn, but I get the impression the angle there going for with him is actually meant to be more "Fallen hero turned to evil" than "Hi, I'm your objectively intrinsically evil villain for the piece that you never have to think twice about.". Which is more than was suggested of him in season 1 certainly, but builds enough from that as to not come completely out of left field.

And as for the elf in the mirror, I have a feeling we have now met our lead villain. And he does seem a rather more subtle character. Very interesting that it looks like after the first leg of season 1 tried to convey that elves are good and humans are bad always (Except our hero's of course cause there special), there going with an elf as a lead villain. He even appears to be using a very subtle application of Dark Magic too USE Verin as his pawn.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just caught up, and now am looking forward to the next season (took me a bit, because I found the first episode of season 1 less than good, and so it took a lot of good reviews for me to give it a second chance).

Some notes, addressing some of the comments in the thread so far:

I think that "the human magic" that got them expelled was the development of dark magic. If it is an essence of its own, it's probably "cruelty", but I suspect it's not an essence at all, no matter what the cube thing says
I think that elven knowledge about magic probably has significant holes. That when they say "humans can't get essences" they mean "I don't think humans are attuned enough to the natural world, because I'm prejudiced against them"
The starry elf was not using dark magic, but can clearly cast from all essences, so acquiring extra essences which you weren't born with is probably doable, just really, really hard
I suspect most elves are not born with an essence - we see foot soldiers that don't seem to have it. If so, those that are born with an essence probably never tried to gain others.


That said, one question: when they were describing the essences, they said there were 6 natural ones, which matches the cube faces. But then in the last episodes, one of those was red and representing dark magic. Which one was it? Did it replace an existing rune?

Grey Wolf

[Flying Turtle]

Just caught up, and now am looking forward to the next season (took me a bit, because I found the first episode of season 1 less than good, and so it took a lot of good reviews for me to give it a second chance).

Some notes, addressing some of the comments in the thread so far:

I think that "the human magic" that got them expelled was the development of dark magic. If it is an essence of its own, it's probably "cruelty", but I suspect it's not an essence at all, no matter what the cube thing says
I think that elven knowledge about magic probably has significant holes. That when they say "humans can't get essences" they mean "I don't think humans are attuned enough to the natural world, because I'm prejudiced against them"
The starry elf was not using dark magic, but can clearly cast from all essences, so acquiring extra essences which you weren't born with is probably doable, just really, really hard
I suspect most elves are not born with an essence - we see foot soldiers that don't seem to have it. If so, those that are born with an essence probably never tried to gain others.


That said, one question: when they were describing the essences, they said there were 6 natural ones, which matches the cube faces. But then in the last episodes, one of those was red and representing dark magic. Which one was it? Did it replace an existing rune?

Grey Wolf

Yeah, it was definitely dark magic that got humans expelled. The intro straight up says the elves and dragons expelled humans because they were horrified by dark magic. And you are right dark magic doesn't really have an essence of its own since the first episode also says it "uses the essence inside magical creatures themselves to unleash dark power."

As for the cube face with the dark magic rune on it, it is replacing the sky rune. You can see the moon rune behind Dark Callum's thumb, the ocean rune behind his finger tips, the mountain rune to the right of those two, and when Dark Callum turns his back to Callum you can see the sun rune is facing him. That leaves sky and star. And a google search for the cube brought up this picture:
https://cdn.thingiverse.com/renders/7e/16/c2/b0/93/52160edbb2ab9adcc1244e632ecc0919_preview_featured. jpg

Notice how the peaks of the mountains point towards the star rune. Now if you look back at the cube with the dark rune, the peaks are pointing away from the dark rune, indicating it is not the star rune. So it must be the sky rune, which makes sense as that was the magic Callum was trying to learn.

We also know all elves are born with their essence, their arcanum, because in the first episode of season 2 the Moon Nexus Guardian says "In Xadia all creatures are born connected to a primal source. They have a piece of it inside them. We call that piece an arcanum." It's definitely possible to develop an arcanum as we see Callum do so but we don't know how well known this fact is. The Moon Nexus Guardian is assumably quite well versed in magic and she had no idea, nor did Claudia. Aarvaros, the starry elf in the mirror, is explicitly called a master of the six sources by King Harrow in his letter to Callum but he might have needed primal stones to use non star magic. Given that we don't know what star magic does it is very possible the little magic we saw him use was all star magic, explaining the lack of a primal stone. Personally I'm betting that the knowledge that you can develop arcanum is extremely rare if not an entirely new discovery, otherwise there wouldn't have been much impetus for humans to develop dark magic.

As for why the elf foot soldiers don't all use magic, I imagine they don't for the same reason Rayla almost never does. Lack of skill means that it is only powerful enough to be useful when they have a strong natural source, like the full moon during the assassination of King Harrow. Heck, the Moon Nexus Guardian seems to be quite skilled with moon magic and the huge illusions she uses to protect the nexus only seem to be able to come out at night.

This whole thing got me thinking though. Anyone have any guesses what star magic does? I'm currently leaning towards divination and other psychic-esque abilities. The arrangement of stars and other heavenly bodies was once thought to predict the future so that would be the thematic connection. If so Aarvaros might have used telepathy and mind control to make the worm a mouth piece and to mess with Virien's head so he couldn't read anything related to Aarvaros.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We also know all elves are born with their essence, their arcanum, because in the first episode of season 2 the Moon Nexus Guardian says "In Xadia all creatures are born connected to a primal source. They have a piece of it inside them. We call that piece an arcanum."

Yes, but my point here is that I'm not sure we can take the Guardian at her word, for the same reason as we know her to be wrong about humans not being able to connect to the essences. I take the "all creatures are born connected to a primal source" as a bit of an exaggeration, although I could also accept that it is a continuum, with the least connected elves being all but indistinguishable from humans power-wise, while still having a tiny spark of a connection they simply can't use, but would still ping as connected to the cube.

Thank you, in any case, for the really quite impressive investigation into which rune got replaced. It is much appreciated.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

The starry elf was not using dark magic, but can clearly cast from all essences, so acquiring extra essences which you weren't born with is probably doable, just really, really hard


Grey Wolf

Imean, aside from his name giving that indication, i just assumed he was using Star magic, given his whole star motif.

[JadedDM]

Although it's never spelled out in the show (not so far, anyway), the show devs have gone on record to say that star magic is basically divination--long range communication, scrying, etc.

[Kato]

To keep things short...
second season was fine.
I don't feel like engaging in much of the hypothesizing but... if Callum's only reason to be able to do magic (when others couldn't for generations) was because he believed in himself I'm going to be pissed.
I'm still not really happy with the animation. Not that it's always bad, many things can look good, but some... not.
Sometimes the show suffers from Marvel syndrome, i.e. they can't go five minutes without a joke. Or one minute in most cases. Guys, it's okay to not have your character keep silly quipping after he got paralyzed. Gosh.. I like to laugh but this way you never get any proper gravitas.
I'm sorry but I feel the climax with the moonpath was really stupid. You can't memorize a path a few stones long but a shadow can save you? Damn, why wasn't it cloudy that day. I mean, it made for a nice teamwork thing but it really did not get me to take it serious.
Also, I constantly feel like the evilness of the siblings is jumping up and down. This might be a bit gut feeling but to me it seems they're always as good / evil as the plot needs them to be.

Yeah, that's a lot of bad things but I still enjoyed it well enough, overall.

[Peelee]

Although it's never spelled out in the show (not so far, anyway), the show devs have gone on record to say that star magic is basically divination--long range communication, scrying, etc.

Oh, thanks! I can see why they don't want to pull that out just yet, that's a very powerful set of abilities.

[Metahuman1]

To keep things short...
second season was fine.
I don't feel like engaging in much of the hypothesizing but... if Callum's only reason to be able to do magic (when others couldn't for generations) was because he believed in himself I'm going to be pissed.
I'm still not really happy with the animation. Not that it's always bad, many things can look good, but some... not.
Sometimes the show suffers from Marvel syndrome, i.e. they can't go five minutes without a joke. Or one minute in most cases. Guys, it's okay to not have your character keep silly quipping after he got paralyzed. Gosh.. I like to laugh but this way you never get any proper gravitas.
I'm sorry but I feel the climax with the moonpath was really stupid. You can't memorize a path a few stones long but a shadow can save you? Damn, why wasn't it cloudy that day. I mean, it made for a nice teamwork thing but it really did not get me to take it serious.
Also, I constantly feel like the evilness of the siblings is jumping up and down. This might be a bit gut feeling but to me it seems they're always as good / evil as the plot needs them to be.

Yeah, that's a lot of bad things but I still enjoyed it well enough, overall.

Regarding Callum: I don't think it's that he tried and there for succeeded. I think it's that it's a not well known path. Might even be a case of someone got it in there head to suppress the knowledge that that can be done. Or else why wouldn't everyone who can attempt to master all Primal Sources? Why wouldn't all humans seek to do it? I could see it being a case of someone putting it in motion to keep that information VERY rare, or to mis information it. (As in make people think that only 1 or 2 people who are truly unique in the ability too have more than 1 power source can do it.).



Regarding Marvel Syndrome: The read I got on that scene was that he was sort of just too busy being relived that he didn't need to murder kids. To be fair it's rather understandable that that would be a big relief. Maybe even one that off set the whole "Your paralyzed form the neck down." thing, at least in the short term that it was happening. And that he was sort of trying to further raise his own spirits as best he could. It, just came out in a way the audience was meant to find at least somewhat humorous.

Given that, I don't think it lost the Gravitas at all, I think it was actually more tragic in it's own way.


Regarding The Climax: The thing was, it's a fairly common thing people do to memorize something in segments. Particularly if it starts longer than seven steps. Could have been just a case of the timing was they lost it just before they could commit the last few to memory. That would be just a fairly normal human failing (I know, one's an elf, but still.).

Also don't forget that climax was just them seeming to go out of the frying pan and into the possibly literal fire of a dragon that is NOT happy to see them. Reyla did NOT react like meeting him was a thing they'd have an easy time smoothing over.


Regarding Evilness of Siblings: There, rather extremely conflicted. Understandably so.

[OutOfThyme]

That said, one question: when they were describing the essences, they said there were 6 natural ones, which matches the cube faces. But then in the last episodes, one of those was red and representing dark magic. Which one was it? Did it replace an existing rune?

Grey Wolf

It does, and in one of the shots, it eventually replaces all visible faces of the cube.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Imean, aside from his name giving that indication, i just assumed he was using Star magic, given his whole star motif.

When he assisted whats-his-name in the fight that ends with him captured, he clearly uses a bunch of spells from multiple sources - an ice one and a stone one that I can recall, and a few others on top. And there was no squeezing of dead or living creatures, so it wasn't dark magic.

I'm guessing he started as a star elf, but I suspect he branched out, and eventually got himself trapped in the mirror.

Grey Wolf

[Metahuman1]

When he assisted whats-his-name in the fight that ends with him captured, he clearly uses a bunch of spells from multiple sources - an ice one and a stone one that I can recall, and a few others on top. And there was no squeezing of dead or living creatures, so it wasn't dark magic.

I'm guessing he started as a star elf, but I suspect he branched out, and eventually got himself trapped in the mirror.

Grey Wolf

Note on No Dark Magic: Given that he and What's his name BOTH had to cut themselves and use various components for the spell, I could just as easily see it being a more refined version of Dark Magic. If what we've seen so far is a Sword or a Combat Knife, think of what we saw with the long range communication spell and the helping him do magic stuff as using a surgical scalpel.

[Flying Turtle]

When he assisted whats-his-name in the fight that ends with him captured, he clearly uses a bunch of spells from multiple sources - an ice one and a stone one that I can recall, and a few others on top. And there was no squeezing of dead or living creatures, so it wasn't dark magic.

I'm guessing he started as a star elf, but I suspect he branched out, and eventually got himself trapped in the mirror.

Grey Wolf

We’ve seen Dark Magic with no obvious sacrifice, like Claudia’s flash light hand, or when she started activating one of her bracelets to take Zim from Ezran so I think it’s possible to prep Dark Magic items in advance so you don’t need to sacrifice something in the moment. It’s possible that’s how Virien did all the things he did. I got to imagine that staff has some serious mojo loaded on to it.

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

When he assisted whats-his-name in the fight that ends with him captured, he clearly uses a bunch of spells from multiple sources - an ice one and a stone one that I can recall, and a few others on top. And there was no squeezing of dead or living creatures, so it wasn't dark magic.

I'm guessing he started as a star elf, but I suspect he branched out, and eventually got himself trapped in the mirror.

Grey Wolf

I think the star elf is the dude who made the Arcanum Cube, according to the name dropped in King Harrow's letter to Callum, which states that he was a Master of all six primal sources.

[Jayngfet]

I don't feel like engaging in much of the hypothesizing but... if Callum's only reason to be able to do magic (when others couldn't for generations) was because he believed in himself I'm going to be pissed.

I think a lot of people don't really get that this is a show for kids. Not teens and probably not even as old as the original Last Airbender series was. This is a show for like five year olds and a lot of it's complexity is mainly filtered through the lens of a demographic to whom two weeks is a long time and having "teen" in your age basically makes you an adult. Of course Callum got it by believing in himself and being special and trying for a week. The equivalent trials for the audience is third grade math and couple of moves from strip mall taekwondo.

This is a show of simple, unnuanced visual metaphors and ideas that don't really make sense as a story but, presumably, make sense to a specific audience in the context of the reality they're living, and they aren't really old enough for heavy nuance.

[Peelee]

I think a lot of people don't really get that this is a show for kids. Not teens and probably not even as old as the original Last Airbender series was. This is a show for like five year olds

How long has it been since you have interacted with a five-year-old?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How long has it been since you have interacted with a five-year-old?

I was thinking the same thing. I think target audience is more like pre-teen, say 8-12. About the king’s age. One of the reasons it took me so long to catch up is that the show is a bit more violent than I feel comfortable letting my kid watch. They are still at Paw Patrol level.

Grey Wolf

[JadedDM]

I mean, the show is rated TV-Y7 so it's certainly not for 5 year olds based on that metric alone.

[Metahuman1]

Honestly in a lot of ways, it does feel like early Last Airbender, or perhaps early Transformers Prime or the one season of G.I. Joe Renegades. (It's a crime that last one only got the 1 season.) In terms of tone anyway. There is darkness there, but it doesn't let it really swallow the work.

[Kato]

Honestly in a lot of ways, it does feel like early Last Airbender, or perhaps early Transformers Prime or the one season of G.I. Joe Renegades. (It's a crime that last one only got the 1 season.) In terms of tone anyway. There is darkness there, but it doesn't let it really swallow the work.

Eeh... Not to put down DP too much, but I think early Airbender was a good chunk better. And considering they should have learned from it by now...
I mean, it's fine, not just for little kids but I don't see it coming close to having the impact Airbender had.

[Clertar]

Eeh... Not to put down DP too much, but I think early Airbender was a good chunk better. And considering they should have learned from it by now...
I mean, it's fine, not just for little kids but I don't see it coming close to having the impact Airbender had.

I agree, but TLA was a really exceptional cartoon. I'm not sure we should be expecting that level of quality or impact to judge other cartoons as good or great.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Eeh... Not to put down DP too much, but I think early Airbender was a good chunk better. And considering they should have learned from it by now...
I mean, it's fine, not just for little kids but I don't see it coming close to having the impact Airbender had.

TLA went in a weird quality rollercoster, though. The early episodes are quite weak, more a "adventure of the week" than structured storytelling - my best friend never got past them, for example. Yes, in retrospect they were building up, but it was rough starting out, just like DP. TLA only became exceptionally good starting about midway through the second season, not coincidentally when Tough joined the party. So far, DP seems to be following the same path (although it keeps shedding party members rather than gaining them, I'll grant you). Only time will tell.

But even if it never becomes as good as TLA (we'd be so lucky if it did, but TLA was probably lightning in a bottle), it is a good show on its own right.

Grey Wolf

[Flying Turtle]

I agree with most of what's been said here. Avatar was definitely inconsistent early on in its run. And I agree that, even considering Avatar's inconsistency, the first 18 episodes of Dragon Prince are not as good as the first 18 episodes of Avatar.

That being said I actually have high hopes for Dragon Prince. I genuinely think this could surpass Avatar. There is potential here that even Avatar didn't display.

Take for example Callum's and Aang's journeys to master the elements. While the elements in Avatar definitely had different underpinning philosophies, they were generally fairly vague. Based on ideas like, going with the flow or waiting for the right time to strike. As a result, Aang either learned them very quickly and easily, water and air, or struggled with them due to a personal hang up, fire and earth. The concepts themselves were not difficult, just Aang's personal relationships to those philosophies.

Callum on the other hand has to learn and understand far more complex concepts before he can even begin to use a new source of magic. He must understand it with his body, mind, and spirit, as his mother said in his fever dream. And those weren't empty words. In order to learn sky magic he began by trying to understand the sky physically (body) by studying sailing. Then he spent time in a storm, at first trying to find the part of the storm that most resembled his lost primal stone. This was misguided but ultimately it led to him understanding the sky intellectually (mind) as he realized that the sky isn't just storms and wind, it's a single continuous global phenomenon. As he said, "The whole world is like a giant primal stone and we're inside it." Finally he had to understand it spiritually by realizing how his own breath connects him to that global phenomenon. And before he could do any of that he had to grow as a person by developing the confidence to push on with his study of magic despite being told it was meaningless.

With Avatar, I was excited for Aang to learn new bending because I wanted to see Aang use new tricks. With Dragon Prince and Callum, I'm just as excited to see new tricks but I'm also excited to see the learning process itself. By adding depth to the ideal underwriting the magic Dragon Prince has made the learning process itself entertaining.

And this depth of concepts doesn't seem to stop with the magic. The King's dream about Lady Justice's blindfold was unmistakably John Rawl's Veil of Ignorance and I'm psyched to see how Ezran builds on these ideas as he grows as a leader.

This story has potential like I have not seen in a very long time.

[Metahuman1]

I agree with most of what's been said here. Avatar was definitely inconsistent early on in its run. And I agree that, even considering Avatar's inconsistency, the first 18 episodes of Dragon Prince are not as good as the first 18 episodes of Avatar.

That being said I actually have high hopes for Dragon Prince. I genuinely think this could surpass Avatar. There is potential here that even Avatar didn't display.

Take for example Callum's and Aang's journeys to master the elements. While the elements in Avatar definitely had different underpinning philosophies, they were generally fairly vague. Based on ideas like, going with the flow or waiting for the right time to strike. As a result, Aang either learned them very quickly and easily, water and air, or struggled with them due to a personal hang up, fire and earth. The concepts themselves were not difficult, just Aang's personal relationships to those philosophies.

Callum on the other hand has to learn and understand far more complex concepts before he can even begin to use a new source of magic. He must understand it with his body, mind, and spirit, as his mother said in his fever dream. And those weren't empty words. In order to learn sky magic he began by trying to understand the sky physically (body) by studying sailing. Then he spent time in a storm, at first trying to find the part of the storm that most resembled his lost primal stone. This was misguided but ultimately it led to him understanding the sky intellectually (mind) as he realized that the sky isn't just storms and wind, it's a single continuous global phenomenon. As he said, "The whole world is like a giant primal stone and we're inside it." Finally he had to understand it spiritually by realizing how his own breath connects him to that global phenomenon. And before he could do any of that he had to grow as a person by developing the confidence to push on with his study of magic despite being told it was meaningless.

With Avatar, I was excited for Aang to learn new bending because I wanted to see Aang use new tricks. With Dragon Prince and Callum, I'm just as excited to see new tricks but I'm also excited to see the learning process itself. By adding depth to the ideal underwriting the magic Dragon Prince has made the learning process itself entertaining.

And this depth of concepts doesn't seem to stop with the magic. The King's dream about Lady Justice's blindfold was unmistakably John Rawl's Veil of Ignorance and I'm psyched to see how Ezran builds on these ideas as he grows as a leader.

This story has potential like I have not seen in a very long time.

All of that, and in 18 episodes. Last Airbender wasn't even here yet after 18 episodes. It took 20 to get to the Siege Of The North.

Sure, by now we'd had some good stuff with Iroh and Zuko and Aangs past, but nothing on this level yet.

[Legato Endless]

That being said I actually have high hopes for Dragon Prince. I genuinely think this could surpass Avatar. There is potential here that even Avatar didn't display.

Take for example Callum's and Aang's journeys to master the elements. While the elements in Avatar definitely had different underpinning philosophies, they were generally fairly vague.

The second season was a nice step forward. While I don't have an idea for forecasting what ends up "better", I do think Dragon Prince is showing a lot more promise on this front. It's an easy potshot because moral dilemmas were always one of the weakest part of the Avatar franchise despite their centricity.

The flashback to the food crisis with Harrow, Viren and Sarai is a neat little beginning examination of tradeoffs, costs, Imperium and moral boundaries. Viren is practically self interested to a fault but not completely wrong about the big picture, Harrow is more compassionate but he wants to have everything both ways, Sarai has the greatest clarity but doesn't have an alternative solution.

There's no miraculous escape here, no Lion Turtle to descend and flatten out the crisis with a magic solution. Indeed the idea of such a descent is treated with suspicion because you can't rely on it. Is the Lava elemental a monster? A person? What are the unknown prices of extracting this power? Despite its brevity, this is a far more sophisticated moral quandary than anything Last Airbender had to say about war and pacifism.

I don't know if I'll ever end up liking the show as much, Airbender had a lot of other winning elements, but a show that intentionally opens with ethnic cleansing the creators draw a deliberate parallel to the Trail of Tears certainly has more of my attention than, "to spread their industrial revolution one day the Fire Nation attacked."

[Morty]

I've just finished watching it over the weekend and I liked it. It's not perfect, but few if any shows are. That being said...



The flashback to the food crisis with Harrow, Viren and Sarai is a neat little beginning examination of tradeoffs, costs, Imperium and moral boundaries. Viren is practically self interested to a fault but not completely wrong about the big picture, Harrow is more compassionate but he wants to have everything both ways, Sarai has the greatest clarity but doesn't have an alternative solution.


I'm not sure about it. Or rather, I can see what they were going for, but the point gets muddied. Sarai tried to argue that it's a complex problem that Harrow and Viran sought a simple solution for, but in the end it kind of was a simple problem. And Viran's solution worked, just at a terrible price. The titan was also just a simple beast as far as we saw... though of course, Harrow did assume that with no real evidence.

This ties a bit into dark magic in general. It's creepy at best and exacts a terrible price, but it is something developed by a people who had no magic of their own while living in a land full of it, next to very magical beings. They struggle against elves without dark magic and they're completely helpless against dragons - Viran and Claudia being the only two to do more than flail ineffectually. So I can't entirely blame them for using it.

Other than that quibble, though, I agree that Harrow is a very mature and complex character in general. What we see of him avoids falling into the "good, rightful king" cliches that fantasy tends to take for granted.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This ties a bit into dark magic in general. It's creepy at best and exacts a terrible price, but it is something developed by a people who had no magic of their own while living in a land full of it, next to very magical beings. They struggle against elves without dark magic and they're completely helpless against dragons - Viran and Claudia being the only two to do more than flail ineffectually. So I can't entirely blame them for using it.

The show hasn't come out and spelled it out, but I get the feeling that the true issue with dark magic is not it's creepiness or the toll it takes on the person (although those are important as well, especially the latter), but that it's a shortcut to power. Yes, elven propaganda that humans can't do magic, I'm sure, helped instill this idea in humans, but the bottom line is that any being can gain the required connection to the sources, and thus use magic. That humans didn't have the patience for it is, well, classic human trait.

Grey Wolf

[GloatingSwine]

The show hasn't come out and spelled it out, but I get the feeling that the true issue with dark magic is not it's creepiness or the toll it takes on the person (although those are important as well, especially the latter), but that it's a short cut to power. Yes, elven propaganda that humans can't do magic, I'm sure, helped instill this idea in humans, but the bottom line is that any being can gain the required connection to the sources, and thus use magic. That humans didn't have the patience for it is, well, classic human trait.

Grey Wolf

It’s not that dark magic takes a toll on the person doing it. It’s that it requires taking power from another living creature in a way that usually turns it into a not-living creature.

Dark magic requires death in order to function.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It’s not that dark magic takes a toll on the person doing it. It’s that it requires taking power from another living creature in a way that usually turns it into a not-living creature.

Dark magic requires death in order to function.

Have you seen the faces of father and daughter after particularly difficult spells? It most definitely takes a toll on the caster even if they power the spell from other creatures.

Heck, the father relies of killing butterflies to retain his looks. In what I would love if it was a Name of the Wind reference, but probably is not.

Grey Wolf

[GloatingSwine]

Have you seen the faces of father and daughter after particularly difficult spells? It most definitely takes a toll on the caster even if they power the spell from other creatures.

Heck, the father relies of killing butterflies to retain his looks. In what I would love if it was a Name of the Wind reference, but probably is not.

Grey Wolf

I’m not saying it doesn’t. I’m saying that’s not the reason there’s such a strong negative perception of it. Especially among the sort of beings that could potentially be used as fuel for it.

[Morty]

The show hasn't come out and spelled it out, but I get the feeling that the true issue with dark magic is not it's creepiness or the toll it takes on the person (although those are important as well, especially the latter), but that it's a shortcut to power. Yes, elven propaganda that humans can't do magic, I'm sure, helped instill this idea in humans, but the bottom line is that any being can gain the required connection to the sources, and thus use magic. That humans didn't have the patience for it is, well, classic human trait.

Grey Wolf

I'm not sure about the shortcut thing, to be honest, because dark magic has pretty consistently required more preparation and ritual than primal magic. Including climbing on top of the tallest mountain in the country. Still, while Callum has managed to attune to the sky primal, he's the first human to do so, as far as we know. And we don't know why he was able to and if any human could theoretically do it. It's not like it was easy for him, either - he had to go through a whole trippy dream sequence.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm not sure about the shortcut thing, to be honest, because dark magic has pretty consistently required more preparation and ritual than primal magic.
Certainly, although "I can only do magic in the Moon foci or under the full moon" is not exactly trivial. But here's the thing: the difficulty of Dark Magic is an solvable difficulty. Someone rich enough could send servants off to collect ingredients. Given those ingredients, dark magic is described as considerably easier to invoke than old magic. Tuning yourself to the element of choice is clearly harder, to the point where Callum almost trivially learnt the first and took days (and a heck of a lot of hard-headed determination) to figure out the second one.


Still, while Callum has managed to attune to the sky primal, he's the first human to do so, as far as we know. And we don't know why he was able to and if any human could theoretically do it. It's not like it was easy for him, either - he had to go through a whole trippy dream sequence.

Well, I suspect the trippy sequence is more due to having done Dark Magic than to his ability to use old magic. Now, I cannot say if he is The One human that can learn magic, but I really hope not, mostly because I'm a bit tired of The One narratives due to oversaturation.

Grey Wolf

[Flying Turtle]

I'm not sure about it. Or rather, I can see what they were going for, but the point gets muddied. Sarai tried to argue that it's a complex problem that Harrow and Viran sought a simple solution for, but in the end it kind of was a simple problem. And Viran's solution worked, just at a terrible price. The titan was also just a simple beast as far as we saw... though of course, Harrow did assume that with no real evidence.


Keep in mind the political complexities. They were a military group trespassing on hostile lands. From a political perspective there were any number of potential complications. Granted Sarai didn’t mention this angle when she was criticizing the plan so she wasn’t doing a great job making her case.

Also I won’t be surprised if it turns out that the titan heart venture ultimately led to the slaying of Thunder. We know Harrow and Virien, and I assume a whole mess of soldiers, killed Thunder a few months prior to the start of the story but we still don’t know why. My guess is the titan heart venture inflamed tensions and things continued to escalate for several years, eventually resulting in the death of Thunder a few months prior to the start of the story. That certainly fits with Harrow’s feelings of being trapped by the past and his comment about how dark magic got them into this mess in the first place.

[Rockphed]

Certainly, although "I can only do magic in the Moon foci or under the full moon" is not exactly trivial. But here's the thing: the difficulty of Dark Magic is an solvable difficulty. Someone rich enough could send servants off to collect ingredients. Given those ingredients, dark magic is described as considerably easier to invoke than old magic. Tuning yourself to the element of choice is clearly harder, to the point where Callum almost trivially learnt the first and took days (and a heck of a lot of hard-headed determination) to figure out the second one.



Well, I suspect the trippy sequence is more due to having done Dark Magic than to his ability to use old magic. Now, I cannot say if he is The One human that can learn magic, but I really hope not, mostly because I'm a bit tired of The One narratives due to oversaturation.

Grey Wolf

I think the trippy dream sequence is how he learned sky magic in 2 weeks instead of needing 10 years of interacting with the sky. The blind sea captain of the Rutheless fairly clearly has a sky arcanum.

I suspect the reason almost nobody gains arcana is partially because most humans who can become mages become dark mages and partially because one of the early steps to gaining an arcanum is feeling the shape of its magic by using a primal stone. Right up until the end of season 1 I was expecting Callum to slowly acquire a full set of primal stones. Now I almost expect him to slowly acquire a full set of innate arcana. I definitely expect him to acquire at least one more than sky and to get enough training to do more than his current 2 tricks.

As for the show's target age, I think the producers were trying to target it at 8 - 12 year olds, but I think they failed. There are too many references to sex and sexuality for me to be comfortable letting my children watch it until they are about 15. Which is too bad since the main themes of the show (justice, revenge, and that when you learn something new you need to change your mind) are things that I think should be explored more by childrens' shows.

[GloatingSwine]

I suspect the reason almost nobody gains arcana is partially because most humans who can become mages become dark mages and partially because one of the early steps to gaining an arcanum is feeling the shape of its magic by using a primal stone.

It was for Callum.

As far as we can tell, there's only one other being that can use magic that's not from an inborn arcanum, and that's Aaravos. Given that he was born with an arcanum of his own he might not have needed any other tool to realise that he could use the others, so I don't expect Callum to need to find other primal stones, just to sense and understand the other arcana as part of the world.

[Morty]

Certainly, although "I can only do magic in the Moon foci or under the full moon" is not exactly trivial. But here's the thing: the difficulty of Dark Magic is an solvable difficulty. Someone rich enough could send servants off to collect ingredients. Given those ingredients, dark magic is described as considerably easier to invoke than old magic. Tuning yourself to the element of choice is clearly harder, to the point where Callum almost trivially learnt the first and took days (and a heck of a lot of hard-headed determination) to figure out the second one.

I feel like we're missing a point of reference here, because we haven't actually seen that much primal magic. Callum and Claudia's use of a primal stone is pretty trivial, but it's supposed to make things a lot easier. Either way, until Callum figured it out, dark magic wasn't an alternative to primal magic for humans - it was the only kind they could do. As far as we know, anyway.


Well, I suspect the trippy sequence is more due to having done Dark Magic than to his ability to use old magic. Now, I cannot say if he is The One human that can learn magic, but I really hope not, mostly because I'm a bit tired of The One narratives due to oversaturation.

Grey Wolf

Yes, I also do hope it's not a case of Callum being "born special" and therefore able to access primal magic.


Keep in mind the political complexities. They were a military group trespassing on hostile lands. From a political perspective there were any number of potential complications. Granted Sarai didn’t mention this angle when she was criticizing the plan so she wasn’t doing a great job making her case.

Indeed, but as you said she doesn't mention it. The point she's making is good. The show just stumbles a bit actually getting it across.


Also I won’t be surprised if it turns out that the titan heart venture ultimately led to the slaying of Thunder. We know Harrow and Virien, and I assume a whole mess of soldiers, killed Thunder a few months prior to the start of the story but we still don’t know why. My guess is the titan heart venture inflamed tensions and things continued to escalate for several years, eventually resulting in the death of Thunder a few months prior to the start of the story. That certainly fits with Harrow’s feelings of being trapped by the past and his comment about how dark magic got them into this mess in the first place.

It does seem pretty obvious that Harrow and Viren killed Thunder to avenge the queens... though I suspect Viren was the one who did the actual killing, given what we've seen. Harrow says that he "took his revenge on Xadia".

[Peelee]

I suspect the reason almost nobody gains arcana is partially because most humans who can become mages become dark mages
But before the first mage figured out dark magic, why wouldn't humans become nages through Arcanum to begin with?

As for the show's target age, I think the producers were trying to target it at 8 - 12 year olds, but I think they failed. There are too many references to sex and sexuality for me to be comfortable letting my children watch it until they are about 15.
Really? Am I dense, or are they really subtle? I'd have no problem letting my little dude check it out around ten or so.

[Resileaf]

Indeed, but as you said she doesn't mention it. The point she's making is good. The show just stumbles a bit actually getting it across.


Actually I think it would be part of the point. Sarai supports the war just as much as everyone else... She just doesn't think that means attacking random people on the other side of the border is the right thing to do.

[Metahuman1]

But before the first mage figured out dark magic, why wouldn't humans become nages through Arcanum to begin with?


For all we know, they did, and the Elves and/or Dragons went out of there way to stone wall on the issue. Preserve an inherent advantage as just that. An advantage, and one humans couldn't do much to counter either.

They may, for all we know, even have been actively suppressing the knowledge. (Yes, I know, hundreds or thousands of years later and a few elves that we've seen have conversations don't know that detail of history anymore. (Assuming the moon mage who's all into "from a certain point of view." ala Obi Wan justifying "Darth Vader killed your father Luke." wasn't telling Callum what she told him on that logic and for that reason.). Doesn't mean it wasn't the case at the time.).

[Rockphed]

But before the first mage figured out dark magic, why wouldn't humans become mages through Arcanum to begin with?

Because Elves seem to have magical racism down in this series. And while ancient dragons seem to possess the ability to see beyond the tip of their nose, having humans come poking around trying to figure out how to cast spells may have generally resulted in medium sized dragons getting a little extra protein in their diets.


Really? Am I dense, or are they really subtle? I'd have no problem letting my little dude check it out around ten or so.

I suspect we have very different tolerances and or I am over reacting. Mostly it was episode 5 of season 2, during Viran's flashback. Queen Sarai was very interested in the clothing choices and behavior of her husband's dream lady justice. There are also the occasional reference to "the sandwich conversation" as a result of Ezran waking Callum from an implied explicit dream involving Claudia, though I mostly write that off as funny since it could just have been Callum dreaming about getting a kiss (and I would explain to a child who asked that Callum likes Claudia and wants to get romantic with her, but doesn't know how to explain that to Ezran because Callum is barely old enough to understand it himself).

[Resileaf]

I suspect we have very different tolerances and or I am over reacting. Mostly it was episode 5 of season 2, during Viran's flashback. Queen Sarai was very interested in the clothing choices and behavior of her husband's dream lady justice. There are also the occasional reference to "the sandwich conversation" as a result of Ezran waking Callum from an implied explicit dream involving Claudia, though I mostly write that off as funny since it could just have been Callum dreaming about getting a kiss (and I would explain to a child who asked that Callum likes Claudia and wants to get romantic with her, but doesn't know how to explain that to Ezran because Callum is barely old enough to understand it himself).

To be fair, a lot of shows for kids have references for adults to get. It's not a new thing. Some shows are admitedly more subtle than others, but the Lady Justice part you refer to is really the only part where the show is overtly going "If you know what I mean" that I can recall.

[Pex]

Well, I suspect the trippy sequence is more due to having done Dark Magic than to his ability to use old magic. Now, I cannot say if he is The One human that can learn magic, but I really hope not, mostly because I'm a bit tired of The One narratives due to oversaturation.

Grey Wolf

That or he has non-human blood to explain why he's special, which would probably be the same thing.

[Lemmy]

The child queen is cringe-worthy annoying, IMO... I get that she was probably made to empower kids, but I can't help but roll my eyes whenever I see these super-genius child characters that are smarter and wiser than every adult and don't act anything like a real kid...

But that's a relatively minor grip. Overall, I think most characters are pretty interesting.

- - -

On an unrelated note, the little queen seems to have 2 biological mothers... I wonder if magic was involved in the conception or if this universe simply uses fanfic biology rules... :smallconfused:

The two queens were pretty cool, though.

[Kato]

On an unrelated note, the little queen seems to have 2 biological mothers... I wonder if magic was involved in the conception or if this universe simply uses fanfic biology rules... :smallconfused:

The two queens were pretty cool, though.

Addressing two people equally as mother doesn't mean both are your biological parents.

[Lemmy]

Addressing two people equally as mother doesn't mean both are your biological parents.True, but she does kinda look like a mix of the two queens. And she can't remember them, so they died when she was really young (so a biological father would have to have left the picturd really quickly, which isn't impossible), and there's no mention of a biological father...

Plus, you know... Magic.

[Peelee]

The child queen is cringe-worthy annoying, IMO... I get that she was probably made to empower kids, but I can't help but roll my eyes whenever I see these super-genius child characters that are smarter and wiser than every adult and don't act anything like a real kid...


I didn't get the impression that she was smarter or wiser than the other monarchs, just that they were sort of checked out and she was taking a more active interest; the way one of the kings commented on her made it seem like he recognized what both he was doing and how she was pointedly reacting to it.

Also, Ezran's attitude shifts significantly when he discovered he is now king. It seems like the royal children are raised with an "uneasy lies the head that wears the crown" philosophy drilled into them, and they acknowledge that the road ahead will be difficult. From what I've seen of the kings and queens already, they sure seem to be heavily idealized versions of rulers to begin with (kind of a fantasy West Wing sort of deal), so the child ruler doesn't really stick out that much. To me, anyway.

In any event, you're right, it's a pretty minor bit regardless.

[Flying Turtle]

The child queen is cringe-worthy annoying, IMO... I get that she was probably made to empower kids, but I can't help but roll my eyes whenever I see these super-genius child characters that are smarter and wiser than every adult and don't act anything like a real kid...



Generally I have the same response to genius children but I was okay with the queen because I didn't get the sense that she was a genius, just prudent beyond her years. And given her comment about people trying to exploit her, her prudence is understandable.

What did bother me however was the fact that all the other leaders seemed to be spineless lemmings. 'I'll agree if everyone else agrees'. Pfft. What kind of leadership was that? You're talking about war guys, give it some thought.

[Resileaf]

I feel like the point of the child queen is that she's dealt with more crap than all the other kings combined and she has no patience for their empty politician words that mean nothing. Possibly a critique by the writers of real life politics as well.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I feel like the point of the child queen is that she's dealt with more crap than all the other kings combined and she has no patience for their empty politician words that mean nothing. Possibly a critique by the writers of real life politics as well.

I got the strong feeling that only her kingdom and Callan's have faced true crises in recent times. She's gone through a less-than-ideal succession crisis where she had to get rid of a Regent (regents being power hungry bastards looking to take the throne for themselves would be a hackneyed trope if it wasn't pretty much 100% RL). Katolis, of course, just went through a major crisis of its own. One gets the feeling that the other three kingdoms have known a long period of peace, and their rulers are not up to the task or facing a real war .

Grey Wolf

[Metahuman1]

I confess I'm a tad curious how the two mothers thing worked for the child queen as well, but there are enough plausible explanations. Hell, for all we know, that country's custom isn't to use blood, but too use adoption, and they regard it as the monarch(s) selecting there successor by hand rather than getting whatever comes out of a normal birth process with there spouse. Verin, reasonably, could have avoided mentioning that, cause it would fall into "AS you already know about your home land.". Given that he was trying to persuade her to side with him after getting off on the wrong foot by seeming to be dismissive of her being up too the task at hand already, steering clear of that would actually be sensible on his part.


And yeah, while the whole child genius thing can be very annoying, the vibe I got from her was "Child soldier who has already seen crap no grown adult should ever have to see, much less a child. And then after seeing it, had to face it head on and either beat it or be broken by it.". And that she happened to manage to beat it.


With regards to the other Monarchs, consider. If the other 4 vote to go to war, and you sit it out, what happens if they loose, and Zadia comes for you because indiscriminate "humans are all alike no matter what boundary's they put on maps for themselves." racism on the part of elves and dragons is in full swing? You get screwed. Now what happens if the other 4 vote to go to war, and even with out you, they manage to pull a win? Maybe they leave you alone, maybe there too weak to do anything too you, or, maybe, there resentful, surrounding you, and still have a lot of military force and momentum to muster. Your taking a craps shoot on your country and it's people's fate. And doing it blind to boot.

Now consider you don't really WANT to go to war, you WANT to sit it out ideally if possible, but there are the above risks.

It's not unreasonable to think the compromise might be "Ok, we are in, but ONLY if this is a united all or nothing effort." to try to make sure when this is over, you'll still be standing even if some or all of the others aren't.

And then when someone else DOES stick too there position and say "No, we will NOT be joining in on this and that is final.", well, now you have your out given the above, don't you?

And besides, your likely thinking that in the time it takes Zadia to wipe out Verin's country or conquer it and lock it down completely, if it comes too that, you'll have time to get spys in, get intelligence out, know what your up against, and if there REALLY only interested in revenge on Verin's lands, or REALLY after all of you as Verin, who either way would have a personal stake in getting you involved, is saying. If there content to stop, well, you shore up your boarders and that's that then. If there not, well, military campaigns take time. Time enough for you too all get together and rally and go "Ok, well, they lost time and they lost manpower, but so did we, now we need to get on the ball about this cause ok, in hind sight, he was right.".


And of course, it would be self defeating for any of them to say this out loud. So they wouldn't, they'd just play the part and go "I'm in, but ONLY if this is everyone in all or nothing deal.".

[Pex]

The child queen is cringe-worthy annoying, IMO... I get that she was probably made to empower kids, but I can't help but roll my eyes whenever I see these super-genius child characters that are smarter and wiser than every adult and don't act anything like a real kid...

But that's a relatively minor grip. Overall, I think most characters are pretty interesting.

- - -

On an unrelated note, the little queen seems to have 2 biological mothers... I wonder if magic was involved in the conception or if this universe simply uses fanfic biology rules... :smallconfused:

The two queens were pretty cool, though.

That has more to do with politics than story, but that's a can of worms to be left alone here.

[GloatingSwine]

True, but she does kinda look like a mix of the two queens. And she can't remember them, so they died when she was really young (so a biological father would have to have left the picturd really quickly, which isn't impossible), and there's no mention of a biological father...

Plus, you know... Magic.

There's no mention of Callum's biological father either.

Was that magic?

[Peelee]

There's no mention of Callum's biological father either.

Was that magic?

New theory: TWINSIES! Of course, that would give Callum royal blood, and he would then attempt a swift coup to take over both kingdoms and then with his combined might sweep through the rest, uniting the human lands into a mighty empire. And then? Star Destroyers. It always ends in Star Destroyers.

[Morty]

I wonder if we're going to see Callum pretend to be an elf in Xadia, like Rayla pretended to be a human. But it's probably harder the other way around.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I wonder if we're going to see Callum pretend to be an elf in Xadia, like Rayla pretended to be a human. But it's probably harder the other way around.

Illusion magic to the rescue! Callan just needs to internalize that the image we project of ourselves to others is a fundamental part of who we are (becoming the mask and the like) or the like. Or Rayla can figure out how to do magic herself beyond elf assassin party tricks.

Grey Wolf

[Morty]

That's actually a good question. How difficult would it be for Rayla to learn illusion magic beyond the natural ability to go invisible in the moonlight?

Her own "human impersonation" worked because it was funny, so a lot depends on whether they want to use Callum's status as a human in Xadia for humor or drama.

[GloatingSwine]

I wonder if we're going to see Callum pretend to be an elf in Xadia, like Rayla pretended to be a human. But it's probably harder the other way around.

Given that they've got a dirty great sun dragon right in front of them, I don't know how much time there'll be for pretend.

Otherwise, Rayla has knives and I guess he doesn't need all those fingers?

[Flying Turtle]

Given that they've got a dirty great sun dragon right in front of them, I don't know how much time there'll be for pretend.

Otherwise, Rayla has knives and I guess he doesn't need all those fingers?

I don’t know, I use my “pinkos” regularly. You know when I’m eating bread and complaining about stuff.

[Morty]

Given that they've got a dirty great sun dragon right in front of them, I don't know how much time there'll be for pretend.

Otherwise, Rayla has knives and I guess he doesn't need all those fingers?

We don't know anything about this dragon, but given Rayla's reaction it's probably not very good news. That being said, I'll hold out hope for Callum talking about how much he loves using magic he was born with and wondering what he'd even do with five fingers.

[Rockphed]

We don't know anything about this dragon, but given Rayla's reaction it's probably not very good news. That being said, I'll hold out hope for Callum talking about how much he loves using magic he was born with and wondering what he'd even do with five fingers.

If you were going to stuff 2 of your fingers in a single glove slot, which 2 would be most believable?

[JadedDM]

We don't know anything about this dragon, but given Rayla's reaction it's probably not very good news.
I actually wonder about that--Rayla's reaction. When she recognizes the dragon, she doesn't sound distressed or afraid, but more...annoyed? She sounded more like someone who was sneaking out of class getting caught by the hall monitor than someone who has stumbled upon a murderous dragon.

Guess we'll see what will happen in season 3 (I hope they renew it, but I haven't heard anything official yet), though.

[Morty]

I actually wonder about that--Rayla's reaction. When she recognizes the dragon, she doesn't sound distressed or afraid, but more...annoyed? She sounded more like someone who was sneaking out of class getting caught by the hall monitor than someone who has stumbled upon a murderous dragon.

Guess we'll see what will happen in season 3 (I hope they renew it, but I haven't heard anything official yet), though.

I'm not sure if I'd call it annoyance. Maybe not fear, either, but definitely concern. And something tells me humans had something to do with the massive scar on his face.

[John Cribati]

I love the fact that Soren and Claudia seem to swap the same half dozen brain cells back and forth, but they're lIke the Infinity Stones where if one of them somehow ends up with all of them at once they're practically unstoppable.

[Cheesegear]

Me: Oh wow, they literally just crippled a deuteragonist. I wonder how he's going to handle this? What's his relationship to his Dad going to look like? Surely they're not going to just write him out of the show. He'll probably just get his arms back. Maybe crippled!Soren will turn to magic, and finally he'll find something he's actually good at, and his Dad will be proud of him, and Soren will basically become Professor X and, Soren will cross lines that even Claudia thinks is wrong, and Claudia will switch teams once she learns what dark magic really can do and...

Nevermind. He's fixed. Completely.

[Gilded_Mage]

Me: Oh wow, they literally just crippled a deuteragonist. I wonder how he's going to handle this? What's his relationship to his Dad going to look like? Surely they're not going to just write him out of the show. He'll probably just get his arms back. Maybe crippled!Soren will turn to magic, and finally he'll find something he's actually good at, and his Dad will be proud of him, and Soren will basically become Professor X and, Soren will cross lines that even Claudia thinks is wrong, and Claudia will switch teams once she learns what dark magic really can do and...

Nevermind. He's fixed. Completely.

Yeah that kinda took the impact away to be healed like that but as I see the writers are going to go forward the path of Claudia slowly getting corrupted hence her white hair.
Also I take offense that you are implying he's not a great warrior. I mean he stood against three moonshadow elves at a full moon and fought against Rayla rather competently. Only really losing when he was taunting her about sweeping the legs.

[Morty]

Yeah, I'm not sure where this "something he's actually good at" part came from. Soren is a perfectly capable warrior.

[Rockphed]

I love the fact that Soren and Claudia seem to swap the same half dozen brain cells back and forth, but they're lIke the Infinity Stones where if one of them somehow ends up with all of them at once they're practically unstoppable.

I always saw it as the two of them having orthogonal life experiences and knowledge. Soren is a decent soldier who earned his place as a royal guard by being really good at his job. Claudia is a dark mage who knows some of what dark magic entails, but is still young enough to not have thought out the full implications of dark magic. And neither gets the other's humor.

[JadedDM]

Fun Fact: Soren and Claudia were originally one character. The writers wound up splitting them into two later on. So the two of them, in a way, are both two halves of the same whole.

[Cheesegear]

Fun Fact: Soren and Claudia were originally one character. The writers wound up splitting them into two later on. So the two of them, in a way, are both two halves of the same whole.

And instead of being good writers, and developing two distinct characters. They instead went for the bad-writer approach and half-assed two characters.

[John Cribati]

I don't feel like either of them are "half-assed." Maybe a bit flat, but the show does a good job of building up the relationship between them and showing off their potential for depth.

[Cheesegear]

I don't feel like either of them are "half-assed."

Maybe a bit flat...

I like how you broke your argument in the first sentence.

[John Cribati]

I like how you broke your argument in the first sentence.

It only breaks if you assume a flat character and a character with hardly any work put into developing them are one and the same. One describes the character's personality, the other describes what the narrative does with them.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah i dont think they are ½ assed either.
I actually like both of them.

[Metahuman1]

Likewise. I think there's a difference between "Half assed." and "Early on in a character arc.". I get the impression there much more the latter one.

[GloatingSwine]

It only breaks if you assume a flat character and a character with hardly any work put into developing them are one and the same. One describes the character's personality, the other describes what the narrative does with them.

No that pretty much is what a flat character means.

A character that doesn't really change or develop throughout a work.


Soren and Claudia haven't really been in focus, so they haven't had a lot of opportunities to change yet. But they've both just had experiences that will change them considerably. Soren has had a brush with paralysis and realised that trying to fight everything probably isn't a good long term survival plan, and Claudia has just discovered that despite following closer in his footsteps than her brother, her father didn't quite trust her enough to let her in on the real plan.

So they've just come to the first major shifting point that can produce change and make them more rounded.

[Cheesegear]

Likewise. I think there's a difference between "Half assed." and "Early on in a character arc.". I get the impression there much more the latter one.

See, the thing with 'potential' is that it can go up in smoke at any time. Voltron had 'potential' and then ran itself into the ground.
I don't read and/or write fanfics (like...maybe one a year, if that), so I don't give a **** about potential. I only care about what I've seen.

What have I seen so far?
"Yeah, but you might see something, later...Maybe."
:smallsigh:

This show is easily compared to ATLA, so I may as well, too:
Prince Zuko was as fleshed out as a deuteragonist by episode 3 - noting that episodes 1 and 2 were intro episodes and don't count - and by episode 12 and/or 13, I don't think there was anyone who didn't like Zuko as a character.

Meanwhile, Dragon Prince is on episode 18.

[GloatingSwine]

This show is easily compared to ATLA, so I may as well, too:
Prince Zuko was as fleshed out as a deuteragonist by episode 3 - noting that episodes 1 and 2 were intro episodes and don't count - and by episode 12 and/or 13, I don't think there was anyone who didn't like Zuko as a character.

Meanwhile, Dragon Prince is on episode 18.

And neither Soren or Claudia are deuteragonist of the show, so it's not actually a valuable direct comparison.


And even so, you're greatly overstating how much development Zuko actually goes through in the first season. Nothing that happens to him in the first season actually causes him to change or grow. There are episodes which reveal that there is more to his character (chiefly The Storm, but the main trait that hinges on doesn't actually come back to dramatic relevance until Zuko Alone), but nothing he experiences actually causes him to reassess his goals or motivations until The Avatar State at the start of season 2. That's the point that the illusion he's been living under that he can win back his father's respect is shattered by the realisation that his only way home is in chains and he starts the season-and-a-half long process of actually reassessing himself as a person.

[John Cribati]

No that pretty much is what a flat character means.

A character that doesn't really change or develop throughout a work.

So technically Toph and Iroh from Avatar are both flat characters. Are they then also half-assed?

[Zalabim]

This show is easily compared to ATLA, so I may as well, too:
Prince Zuko was as fleshed out as a deuteragonist by episode 3 - noting that episodes 1 and 2 were intro episodes and don't count - and by episode 12 and/or 13, I don't think there was anyone who didn't like Zuko as a character.

Meanwhile, Dragon Prince is on episode 18.
If you're saying you don't like Claudia and Soren, then that's really more on you. No one is obligated to like every character, and conversely, you can't please everyone all of the time. I like what they've done so far.

[GloatingSwine]

So technically Toph and Iroh from Avatar are both flat characters. Are they then also half-assed?

Supporting characters don't have to go through the same depth of growth as protagonists.

But both Toph and Iroh do develop through the series. Toph starts out overcorrecting for the perception that she should be reliant on others which makes her shut everyone out even if they're helping out of goodwill and starts actually co-operating with others (and that makes her a better teacher for Aang).

Iroh grows out of the passivity that had been born out of his grief at the loss of his son and realises that he also has to step up and offer more than wisdom.


Also, flat characters aren't necessarily bad writing, depending on the role of that character in the fiction. Admiral Zhao is a flat character, he's got one thing he does and a range of emotion that encompasses both angry and smug. But the fact that he doesn't grow or learn is also his downfall in the story. It's okay for some characters to be flat as a point of comparison with the ones that aren't. As long as they are used sparingly in the drama.

[lord_khaine]

If you're saying you don't like Claudia and Soren, then that's really more on you. No one is obligated to like every character, and conversely, you can't please everyone all of the time. I like what they've done so far.

I liked that they from the early start showed a surprising degree of nuance.
Soren was ready and eager to watch his sister walk into a tree.
But even after Callum spoiled his fun he were still ready to get "defeated" to help impress Claudia.
That i think showed us we were going to get characters who wasnt complete bad, or completely good.

For that matter, i also find it kinda amusing that likely all this mess can be traced back to Verin acting heroic.
When they were escaping the storm dragon, and he jumped in to try and save the rear guard.
That got the Queen killed.
And i am 100% certain thats what made the humans come back and kill the Storm Dragon King.

[Cheesegear]

And even so, you're greatly overstating how much development Zuko actually goes through in the first season.

Zuko doesn't go through development because he's already established his role for the Season by the third episode.

What drives Zuko? What are his goals? What are his conflicts. All of that is answered through interactions with Zhao, Iroh, and his own personality.


Nothing that happens to him in the first season actually causes him to change or grow.

He doesn't need to. He's totally developed for his role basically in his first vignette. In Season 1, he's effectively the villain. He has all the development he needs at that point.

Inciting incident, motivation, goal, actions to achieve goals. All of this was effectively laid out in ten minutes. You're right. Zuko isn't even a protagonist yet. I'm not surprised you missed it.
He finds conflict by episodes 12 or 13 which are his development.

But Zuko is an established character right out of the gate.


There are episodes which reveal that there is more to his character

...And the first one is episode 3.

Zuko needs to capture the Avatar.
Why?
'Cause his Dad said so. Soren's and Claudia's motivations get fuzzy by this point.
Why?
Because his Dad Agni Kai'd the **** out of him and burned his face off.
Why?
Because Zuko is a disrespectful wuss.

Therefore:
Zuko needs to capture the Avatar to prove to his Dad that he both respects him and isn't a wuss. Got it. Develop conflict from there.
(e.g; Zuko doesn't need Ozai's respect, he needs Iroh's, and he needs to learn to respect himself - and he's not a wuss.)

[GloatingSwine]

He doesn't need to. He's totally developed for his role basically in his first vignette. In Season 1, he's effectively the villain. He has all the development he needs at that point.


And that's not sufficient for Soren and Claudia because?

[Cheesegear]

And that's not sufficient for Soren and Claudia because?

Okay. My bad. Comparing anything to ATLA is a bad idea because ATLA is just better written. You got me.

Inciting incident; Uhh...Soren and Claudia don't have one.
Motivation; To make Dad proud...But why though? Nothing is established, let alone developed.
Goal; Capture the Princes...
Kill the Princes; Wait. What. Plot stalls as Soren should immediately try and figure out what's going on.
When it comes down to it, let Soren die; Wait. What. Let my brother die? Hang on. Plot stalls.
Actions to achieve goals; I dunno...Just follow, I guess. The Princes don't know you're following, so it's not like they can dodge or mislead you.

It then takes Soren and Claudia 17 or 18 episodes to reach conflict because they have no conflicts with them (e.g; Iroh) and they don't talk to each other because they're stupid...As another poster said, it seems like they only have one working brain between the both of them.
Then Season 2 ends.
And people think that's good story-telling? :smallconfused:

"Hey, like...Dad told me to kill Callum and Ezran, is that weird?" Why did that take so long?

They could be good characters in Season 3, but they're not, now... Given how totally botched anything can be (looking at you, Legend of Korra), 'potential' doesn't mean anything.

[John Cribati]

Alright, here's what I'm trying to get at.

Soren and Claudia are rather flat characters. They haven't done much development, storywise.

What I'm arguing against is the idea that a flat character is the same as a half-assed character. One is a matter of development, the other is a matter of establishment.

[lord_khaine]

"Hey, like...Dad told me to kill Callum and Ezran, is that weird?" Why did that take so long?

Because he was extremely conflicted about said task?
He tried to say it, but didnt manage to initially.

[Cheesegear]

Because he was extremely conflicted about said task?

But why was he conflicted? Why is doing what Dad says, so important, if what Dad asked him was clearly morally wrong, and illegal?
Zuko has a huge scar on his face that tells him to do what Dad says.


He tried to say it, but didnt manage to initially.

Yes. I know that. Why not?

1. Don't kill the princes. Easy. There is nothing wrong with this choice.
2. Do kill the princes. Why is this even an option? Why is there even conflict at all? This is clearly the wrong choice. We're not shown why Soren doing what Viren says, matters. Tell Claudia what Dad said immediately when Dad is no longer in earshot.

Killing the Princes isn't killing an enemy combatant - it's murder. Soren should outright refuse. Why doesn't he?

[Lemmy]

I liked that they from the early start showed a surprising degree of nuance.
Soren was ready and eager to watch his sister walk into a tree.
But even after Callum spoiled his fun he were still ready to get "defeated" to help impress Claudia.
That i think showed us we were going to get characters who wasnt complete bad, or completely good.
I don't think that's to show he isn't "completely bad or completely good". All that shows is that he is Claudia's brother (as someone with 3 siblings I can say I'd definitely let them walk into a tree if they were so distracted. Then laugh at them and tell them to be more careful in the future) and Callum's friend (who never helped a friend impress a girl?).

I'll agree that Claudia and Soren aren't particularly interesting characters... Soren specially is sometimes pushed too far into the "incompetect comic relief" role... But I wouldn't call them half-assed... Just... Not very interesting.

But to be fair, other than the villain, none of the main characters is very interesting. They are all... Ok.

[JadedDM]

Soren outright says that he figured his dad is really smart and therefore must have a good reason for ordering him to do that. He trusts Viren, over his own judgment.

[Flying Turtle]

I'd push back very strongly against the claim that Soren and Claudia are flat characters. Let' start with Soren.

Some people have complained that Soren doesn't seem to have any motivation for going along with his father's obviously awful plan to kill the princes. But he does. As previously mentioned part of his motivation was his faith in his father's intelligence. But his motivation runs deeper. He was doing it not just because he trusts his father but because he wants his father to be proud of him.

Soren: "I was confused and I didn't want to do it but I do want Dad to love me and be proud of me."
Claudia: "He is proud of you no matter what."
Soren: "Dad is so smart so I figure'd there must be a good reason"

In Soren's eyes his father is smart and he is not. Despite his boisterous pride in his muscles and fighting ability he doesn't feel like he lives up to his father's expectations. He doesn't think his father loves him. So to get that love he is willing to do terrible things, including kill two of his own friends. And the guilt he feels at being willing to do that is immense. It's why, on some level, he was happy to be paralyzed.

"Now I can't do anything terrible, because I can't do anything."

And we see a similar dynamic with Claudia. Claudia has a knack for dark magic and "creative solutions" just like her father. However, unlike her father she is much more self conscious about these things. We see this in how she hides her plans for the deer from Ezran. We see it in how the first thing she does when she encounters Ezran riding the Bantha is apologize for using dark magic against him earlier and insist that she would never hurt him or her brother. And we see it in how defensive she gets to Callum's reaction to her offer to teach him dark magic. Just like her brother, Claudia is influenced by her father and on some deep level she feels that that influence is making her do bad things. But unlike Soren who responded with guilt, she response with rationalizations and arguments.

Claudia: "That's what's great about dark magic. You just take creatures that are born with magic inside and squeeze it out of them."
*Callum makes a face*
Claudia: "What- ah... You're doing it again prince judgy face! Look here's how I think about it. Human's weren't born with magic. We were born with nothing. But we still found a way to do amazing things. That's what dark magic is really all about."

She's got her rationalizations, but even they don't completely assuage her worries that other people are judging her.

Both characters are at war with themselves over their fundamental goodness and their desire to please their father.

And their characterization doesn't stop there. There's a lot of other stuff to dig into. Claudia's unresolved issues about her mother leaving them and how when her mother left she told Claudia to stay behind because Claudia and Soren need each other. Soren's guilt over how he let his dream of slaying a dragon lead to him antagonizing a dragon who then responded by burning an innocent town.

Solid stuff considering these guys aren't even the main protagonists.

[Aquillion]

Killing the Princes isn't killing an enemy combatant - it's murder. Soren should outright refuse. Why doesn't he?I agree to an extent, and the comparisons to ATLA aren't doing this show any favors (although of course we're only two seasons in.)

But I think what you have to remember is that Soren is an idiot. Meanwhile, his dad is very clearly the smartest guy in the entire kingdom, so he trusts that his father has good reasons for what he does. Also, up until now Soren has probably never had any reason to doubt him. It's easy for us to say "oh, yeah, just ignore your father", but it's harder for him.

(Also, he didn't actually do much to follow his father's instructions - he made one half-hearted attempt, then seems to have mostly given up.)



I disagree that this is a problem with Claudia, though. Her motivations are straightforward and make complete sense, they're just ones that we, as viewers, are going to hate because the larger narrative means she has to be wrong. When she says that the dragon egg is a weapon, though, she has a point. Thunder, the previous dragon king, was instrumental in the ethnic cleansing of the entire human race. Countless humans have died and suffered because of him. There's no reason to think that the dragon queen is any less of a bigot than he was, so delivering an egg to her and thinking it would end the war is stupid (the fact that Runaan - the only character in the entire series so far who is likely to have any insight into the Dragon Queen's goals, outlook, and thinking - thought that the egg's survival made no difference should be a glaring warning sign.) Objectively, it is very likely that Callum and Rayla's mission is going to end in disappointment or even disaster.

Of course Claudia isn't completely right - she has her own bigotry, and dismissing the egg as just a weapon is a mistake; obviously Azymondias will be crucial to ending the war. But I think we're supposed to understand that to an extent, at least, Claudia has a more clear-eyed understanding of the situation than Callum and Rayla's belief that if they just delivered a dragon egg to the queen and talked to her, generations of bloodshed and mutual hatred could be erased just like that.

The reality is that if Azymondias hadn't hatched (allowing him to start developing on his own), it would be very likely that they'd end up delivering a weapon that would be used to bring continuous death and suffering to humans for generations to come. Claudia isn't wrong about that part.

I also feel that the show hasn't really given her a chance to defend the practice of Dark Magic properly - I mean, most of what she does involves "sacrificing" things like grasshoppers, petals, spiders, slugs and spores; it's hard to reconcile that with the fact that the elves and dragons used the practice as an excuse for ethnic cleansing. But it's possible they're saving that for later, since it cuts to the heart of the conflict. I think there's also parallels between the Elven / Dragon outlook on Dark Magic, ie. "its power can be used for evil, so humans who practice it must die", and Claudia's outlook on the dragon egg, which is basically identical.

But, I mean... it's pretty clear Claudia and Soren were both developing in the last episode. We're only two seasons into a six-season show, after all.

[Metahuman1]

Six seasons? Interesting. That means we, could actually roughly gauge that were Dragon Prince is now, if were going to do the Avatar: Last Airbender comparisons, is close too/a little behind Season 1 of ATLAB. That's, worth considering.




Regardless, I feel the point on Soren and Claudia has been rather well defended in the last several posts. I actually like the character trait for Soren that he's mentally a brick, and he's self aware of that. Has some self loathing going on because of it, and his coping mechanism is to try and focus on the things he's good at, which are athletics and martial arts and military combat related things. And that the problem there is that his father doesn't show much if any approval of such things from his son. The first time his father seemed to show anything even hinting at such too him that were aware of,

Is when he ordered him to murder a younger kid he was sort of friends with and had been a tutor for and whom he knew was having a crush on his sister, and an even younger child he'd had mostly friendly relations with, whom, regardless, was still very much just a kid, with those things he'd been using as a coping mechanism, for his own perceived short comings.

That's, the sort of thing that can really mess with someone. Really, really mess with them.

[Cheesegear]

As previously mentioned part of his motivation was his faith in his father's intelligence. But his motivation runs deeper. He was doing it not just because he trusts his father but because he wants his father to be proud of him.

Yep. I got that far.
What I didn't get, what why Soren needs his father's approval.


Just like her brother, Claudia is influenced by her father and on some deep level she feels that that influence is making her do bad things.

But why?


Claudia: "That's what's great about dark magic. You just take creatures that are born with magic inside and squeeze it out of them."

That's a really cool line, and it sets up her personality greatly. What it doesn't set up, is her motivation.
What is she doing in the show?
What is her role?


Claudia's unresolved issues about her mother leaving them and how when her mother left she told Claudia to stay behind because Claudia and Soren need each other.

Why though?
Was Claudia bullied when they were younger for being a fake nerd girl, causing Soren to beat the **** out of other kids?
Did Claudia tutor her brother at some time, because she was the smart one?

'They need each other because they're related, obviously'.
...That's not enough. In fact, that's not anything. I know plenty of people who hate their siblings. Blood doesn't mean ****, unless it does.

Why do they 'need' each other?
Why do they want/need Dad's approval?

Frankly, I think all the problems surrounding them come from the fact that they're two characters.


Solid stuff considering these guys aren't even the main protagonists.

No. They're not. But a whole bunch of screen time is devoted to them anyway. At the very least, that makes them the B-plot (especially in S2). Whilst Amaya and Virren are the C and/or D plots.


Ehasz wrote a bunch of ATLA episodes - including many 'important' ones. If comparisons to ATLA aren't favourable...Well, it's the same guy. Don't know what else there is.

[John Cribati]

This may come as a shock to you, but loving and trusting your family members is something that just sort of happens on principle so long as your family members aren't literally physically abusive (and, well, speaking from personar experience, can actally hapoen even if they ARE). Like, unless we see flashbacks of Viren dragging his kids somewhere and physically beating them, what reason do Soren and Claudia not have to trust him? What reason do they have to actually doubt him?

So yeah, all that stuff about wanting your parents' approval or wanting to succeed just to show them you can? That's stuff that just happens because it's ingrained in people- "my parent(s) is/are great, so I have to be just as great when I'm their age or I've failed on principle."

Same for when their mother tasked Claudia with taking care of Soren. Little girls being unfairly tasked with taking care of the men of the family while the mother is away is just stuff that happens, dude. I'm glad that you're questioning it but if it's so hard for you to believe that people look and act like this, either society is really great in your neck of the woods or your eyes just aren't open to it.

[Cheesegear]

Like, unless we see flashbacks of Viren dragging his kids somewhere and physically beating them, what reason do Soren and Claudia not have to trust him? What reason do they have to actually doubt him?

He asked Soren to murder his friends, and his Princes.
He asked Claudia to let her brother die.

Go over those two orders again and again. I don't care how indoctrinated you are. Maybe I can give some leeway to Soren. But not Claudia. If Claudia even remotely gives a **** about what her Mother said, then Viren is automatically not on her side. If you believe you're any sort of 'good' person at all, you question those orders more than not-at-all. I don't care if you don't question Viren to his face. Soren and Claudia - if they have a brain cell - can immediately tell they're Dad isn't right. So how 'bout you bring it up sooner than what...17 episodes?

If the only reason Soren follows his Father's orders, is because he's stupid, then you've written a stupid character. Remember a page or so back? I thought he was so stupid that I forgot he could actually fight. The reason that Soren doesn't ask questions, is because if he doesn't, then there can be a plot?
That's what's called an Idiot Ball.

I'm not going to question my Dad's horrible orders. Even though they almost definitely conflict with my beliefs.
I'm not going to bring it up to my sibling either (who is supposed to be on my side, always). When my Mum was having problems, first thing I did was call my brother and sister - even though she told me not to. Mum said weird stuff. Please help.
The plot happens because people don't talk to each other - the whole thing between Soren, Claudia, and their Mission, can be solved in a few sentences. And hey, guess what? It was.
...At least on Soren's end. Claudia hasn't learned anything.


This may come as a shock to you, but loving and trusting your family members is something that just sort of happens...
So yeah, all that stuff about wanting your parents' approval or wanting to succeed just to show them you can? That's stuff that just happens because it's ingrained in people...
Same for when their mother tasked Claudia with taking care of Soren. Little girls being unfairly tasked with taking care of the men of the family while the mother is away is just stuff that happens...

At no point am I saying they're unrealistic.
I'm saying they're bad. Half-assed. Flat. However you want to put it.

Their goals and motivations are extremely flimsy, and it feels like they're in the plot...Because Zuko was thing?
Why do Soren and Claudia need to exist?
What are they even doing?

If S3 starts, and Callum has to master all six elements for reasons, and in order to do that, he needs Claudia's Dark Magic expertise... :smallsigh:

[Aquillion]

He asked Soren to murder his friends, and his Princes.
He asked Claudia to let her brother die.
The Claudia one isn't completely absurd. She feels the same way he does with regards to how dangerous the egg is - from their perspective, it is entirely possible that another Thunder could one day be used to exterminate humanity as a whole. Viren isn't exaggerating when he says he feels that this is a war for humanity's survival, and Claudia seems to share his beliefs in that respect.

Claudia was shocked that he'd say it, and when it comes down it she wasn't willing to sacrifice her brother, but I don't think she saw it as weird or utterly unreasonable that her father would ask her to - the danger of what another Dragon King might do in the future is extremely real given that the last one used his power to wage an extended ethnic cleansing against humanity.

It meant she had to make the choice between her mother's orders and her fathers, but nothing about that order made her stop and say "wait, what is wrong with dad?" She fully understands why he would give an order like that, and it made sense to her even if she doesn't like it.

Soren's order was the harder-to-justify one - "murder the princes so I can seize power for the greater good" is a lot more horrifying than "if you, for some reason, you have to choose, choose the macguffin that could decide the fate of the world over even the life of your brother."

[Cheesegear]

It meant she had to make the choice between her mother's orders and her fathers, but nothing about that order made her stop and say "wait, what is wrong with dad?" She fully understands why he would give an order like that, and it made sense to her even if she doesn't like it.

Okay. That's makes more sense.


Soren's order was the harder-to-justify one - "murder the princes so I can seize power for the greater good" is a lot more horrifying than...

This is kind of exactly my point.

Your argument has convinced me that...
Claudia is a better character than I gave her credit for...But Soren is now worse.
Unfortunately, they're paired together, so it's a wash.

[Flying Turtle]

He asked Soren to murder his friends, and his Princes.
He asked Claudia to let her brother die.

Go over those two orders again and again. I don't care how indoctrinated you are. Maybe I can give some leeway to Soren. But not Claudia. If Claudia even remotely gives a **** about what her Mother said, then Viren is automatically not on her side. If you believe you're any sort of 'good' person at all, you question those orders more than not-at-all. I don't care if you don't question Viren to his face. Soren and Claudia - if they have a brain cell - can immediately tell they're Dad isn't right. So how 'bout you bring it up sooner than what...17 episodes?

If the only reason Soren follows his Father's orders, is because he's stupid, then you've written a stupid character. Remember a page or so back? I thought he was so stupid that I forgot he could actually fight. The reason that Soren doesn't ask questions, is because if he doesn't, then there can be a plot?
That's what's called an Idiot Ball.


I'm not going to question my Dad's horrible orders. Even though they almost definitely conflict with my beliefs.
I'm not going to bring it up to my sibling either (who is supposed to be on my side, always).
The plot happens because people don't talk to each other - the whole thing between Soren, Claudia, and their Mission, can be solved in a few sentences. And hey, guess what? It was.
...At least on Soren's end. Claudia hasn't learned anything.

But they did question it, immediately and persistently. When they have their discussions with their father they are both immediately turned off by what he says and they begin asking questions, trying to suss out a less awful interpretation of what he just told them. And then, when that fails, the next time we see both of them Soren is stress eating and they are both trying to indirectly talk to one another about their problems. They are questioning, they're both just too chicken to do it openly.

And Soren's motivation isn't that he's stupid, it's that he thinks he's stupid. He doesn't think he can appreciate this situation on the level of his father, so he trusts his father. But even that trust only goes so far which is why he does question his father right from the jump and why he eventually gives up entirely on his father's plan. He's not the brightest, that is true, but I don't think anyone is arguing he is. What I'm arguing at least is that while stupid, he is not flat, there are dimensions to him. He's grappling with his desire to do what he thinks is right and his lack of belief in himself that he can even determine what's right.

Additionally the problem between them and their mission was not and cannot be solved with few sentences. The problem isn't that they didn't know one another's orders, the problem is that they both put way too much stock in their father's opinion. That's a deep character fault that they both possess and that is still present even at the end of season 2. We see this when they are already making plans to placate their father with the dragon horn Soren cut off. The mission may be done but the problem remains. Fortunately both of them seem to be heading in the right direction as they both directly disobeyed their father's orders. Soren did so when he told Claudia about the orders and Claudia did it when she let Ezran get away with Zym in order to help Soren after the dragon smashed him against the rock. She was seconds away from taking Zym but then Soren called for help and after a brief hesitation she rejected her father's orders to place the egg above her brother.

You've mentioned a lot that they lack motivation but I think the truth is that they lack deep motivation. And I don't think that is a bad thing, I think it's a great thing. They're not suppose to be super driven or committed. They're suppose to waffle, they're suppose to rationalize, they're suppose to flounder. It shows their complexity and how they are trying to hold opposing ideals. And more importantly it makes them unsure about what they'll do, which in turn makes us unsure what they'll do. I don't know whose side either of them are going to end up on but I know I'm definitely interested to find out.

They're definitely flawed characters. Soren is stupid, Claudia is too good at rationalizing her own behavior and they both put way to much stock in their father's opinion. But these flaws aren't flaws in the writing, because they are all justified in story and they all service the story.

[Reddish Mage]

Claudia is a better character than I gave her credit for...But Soren is now worse.
Unfortunately, they're paired together, so it's a wash.

I find it hard to see your perspective that Soren's loyalty to his father and willingness to kill the princes somehow goes against his character.

Sure, the idea that Soren is willing to act and think like his father is reprehensible, but we've seen nothing to suggest that Soren is somehow above that sort of behavior.

It's more like you think that since these acts are so inherently outrageous, that's how you expect every character to react, but that's not how it works. If you think no one feels they are entitled to murder, and willing to murder, to further their goals and ambition you haven't been paying attention.

[Cheesegear]

I find it hard to see your perspective that Soren's loyalty to his father and willingness to kill the princes somehow goes against his character.

I'm not saying it goes against his character, I'm saying he doesn't have a character to begin with.

[Aquillion]

I mean, he does. I can understand not liking it, and it's obvious what sort of character development they're going for, but mostly:


He doesn't like to think.
He's an idiot.
He's a bit of a bully.
He admires and cares about his father and his sister, but doesn't like to admit it.
Violence is all he's good at, and he's aware of this, so he tends to double down when challenged on it (see his reaction to the dragon.)
He secretly wishes he could be more than that, but he doesn't want to admit it (he only really opens up about this while injured.)


That's about it. He's not really a complex character, but conversely, it's all there.

[Reddish Mage]

Indeed, Soren's basically a thug with a rounding of the edges. They want us to see Claudia and Soren as being redeemable and conflicted but mostly they keep falling back into type.

[Aquillion]

As I said above, I'm not totally sure that Claudia needs to be redeemed. She's done some bad things so far, but most of them are based on her misunderstanding the situation or having a different outlook in a way that's mostly defensible.


She's suspicious of Xadia. This is reasonable, and she may actually be correct that taking the dragon prince there won't solve anything in and of itself. She's definitely correct that it's an extremely risky course of action.
She thinks the princes are too idealistic and need to come home so they can do their job. She doesn't know that her father intends to kill them or start a war, she just thinks the kingdom needs a leader. Note that Ezran agrees with this once he learns all the details, so (aside from not knowing the danger posed by her father) she isn't necessarily wrong as far as it goes.
She's manipulative in the pursuit of that, but... you know, the princes can be manipulative in pursuit of their goals, too (eg. lying to their aunt.) It's reasonable given her understanding of the situation and the importance of getting them to come home to resolve the crisis there rather than chasing after, to her mind, dangerous fantasies.
She uses dark magic, but most of what she's done with it has involved sacrificing slugs, spiders, petals and grasshoppers - hardly acts of evil. Her "worst" action so far was to sacrifice a deer to save her brother's health, which isn't any different than, you know, hunting one for food.
She described the dragon egg as a weapon when it was first introduced. This is an obvious Villain Flag and clearly missed the fact that it was the egg of a sentient being, but like I said above, there's a grain of truth to it in the sense that Xym poses a serious long-term danger to all of humanity that can't just be ignored (of course, this is comparable to the serious long-term danger that dark magic users like her pose to Xadia - I think that there's an intentional parallel between her views on dragons and Xadia's views on dark magicians.)


She has flaws, but I don't see that as leading towards or requiring a redemption arc...?

Soren is different because he needs to break out of his vicious cycle where he thinks of himself as only good at physical violence and isn't willing to pursue things outside of that because shifting away from his identity as a glorified thug would threaten what, to him, is only thing that gives him value. I think we saw some hints of that at the end of the last episode, though - part of the reason why he was able to grapple with his injury was because he was relieved to have that identity as a murder machine taken away from him so he could eg. pursue poetry without having to worry about endangering it.

I suppose that to the extent Claudia needs a redemption arc, it would be moving away from her father's "for the greater good" mindset. But she's never really been that deep into that to begin with - she didn't know he wanted to kill the princes; wanting to bring them back home to resolve the political crisis was entirely reasonable; we haven't really seen her abusing dark magic; and even her focus on the dragon prince as a weapon, while clearly wrong given the themes of the show, seems defensible when contrasted with the princes' somewhat idealistic belief that bringing him to Xadia will end the war.

[Kato]

I don't want to take a side in this but I don't quite see the justification for Soren's actions, relative to his character. He may not be the sharpest spoon in the drawer but I don't see what makes people think he's a bully or otherwise lacking a moral compass. (except being racist towards elves, but **** elves) I also don't think it would have been impossible for his dad to convince him to murder the princes but as things went it felt too easy. He questioned it but barely. It doesn't ruin him for me but I'd prefer to understand him better.

[The Fury]

Indeed, Soren's basically a thug with a rounding of the edges. They want us to see Claudia and Soren as being redeemable and conflicted but mostly they keep falling back into type.

I don't quite agree. I think fans of the show like to see them as redeemable, the writers though... they seem to have given Claudia and Soren a veneer of redeemable characters with likable personalities but not a willingness to change for either of them. I'm willing to believe that it's a deliberate characterization choice, not really a fumble on the writers' part for basically one reason-- because Soren and Claudia come off as likable in-universe and out it's pretty understandable why fairly decent folks like Callum and Ezran keep giving them second chances.

I'm still not on board with a Claudia or Soren redemption arc. Mainly because I still sort of like the idea of affable, pleasant antagonists with goofy personalities that don't get redeemed, yet remain affable and goofy. At least it would be different. Yet, their roles seem to be shifting into more antiheroic ones.

[Aquillion]

Again, what has Claudia done wrong?

She wanted to drag the princes back home... which was, honestly, an entirely reasonable thing to do. They're kids who need to own up to their responsibilities, and Ezran eventually comes to the same conclusion she did. Yes, she lied to them for this. They've lied to people for their goals, too, and what she was trying to do was reasonable given her understanding of the situation.

She thinks taking the egg / Zym to Xadia is folly... which might actually be the case. The only thing we know about the Dragon Queen's outlook is that Runaan, the only person in the series so far who could reasonably know her thinking on the matter, believed that the egg's survival would make no difference. It's entirely possible that they'll get the egg to her only to find that she's every bit as bad and revenge-driven as Viren and completely unwilling to listen to reason.

She uses Dark Magic... fueled by bugs and plants. The worst dark magic we've seen her use involved sacrificing a deer for her brother's health, which, again, doesn't seem any worse to me then eating it.

She doesn't (or didn't) know about her father's crimes and his willingness to kill the princes, remember.

She dismissed the egg as "just a weapon", which was unfair and unjust, but she's not completely wrong about the danger it (or, now, Zym) poses. Unlike the princes, she's old enough to remember the horrors caused by Thunder. Obviously she's wrong here, and Zym has the potential to be better than Thunder, but I don't think it's an evil position to take or one that necessarily requires redemption - it seems comparable to the way Xadia views dark magic, ie. people like Thunder or Viren who abuse their power need to be stopped, but people who use it responsibly shouldn't be hated for the actions of others.

I don't think Claudia is going to have a redemption arc because I don't think she really needs one (in fact, when she and Callum meet again, I could see them both apologizing and saying that they were wrong - Claudia for dismissing Zym's potential to be better than his monstrous father, something she's probably about to learn a lot about herself, and Callum for underestimating how deep the wounds of the past were and how much work would be required to heal them. Eg. Callum saying he was a fool to try and bring Zym to Xadia, and Claudia telling him he wasn't, that it was worth a try even if it didn't work the way he wanted it to.)

[The Fury]

Again, what has Claudia done wrong?

She was complicit regarding Gren's imprisonment, or at least willing to turn a blind eye. Mind that Gren is a bit different from Runaan, in that he's a loyal soldier of Katolis who was following Amaya's orders that just happened to be inconvenient for Viren.

She also got the deer for restoring Soren by lying to and manipulating Ezran by taking advantage of his trusting nature.

Not saying "See? Claudia's clearly pure evil!" but she isn't a nice person.

[lord_khaine]

She was complicit regarding Gren's imprisonment, or at least willing to turn a blind eye. Mind that Gren is a bit different from Runaan, in that he's a loyal soldier of Katolis who was following Amaya's orders that just happened to be inconvenient for Viren.

She also got the deer for restoring Soren by lying to and manipulating Ezran by taking advantage of his trusting nature.

Not saying "See? Claudia's clearly pure evil!" but she isn't a nice person.

Thats hardly a fundation to decide anything on. Let alone if someone is nice or not.
It was Viren who imprisoned Gren on his own initiative. What was she supposed to do? Turn against her father?

And yes she ommited what she actually needed the milk fruit for (attract a deer).
Though thats at the same time something Ezren were better off not knowing.

Honestly, i dont think neither Soren nor Claudia need a redemption arc at this point.

[The Fury]

Thats hardly a fundation to decide anything on. Let alone if someone is nice or not.
It was Viren who imprisoned Gren on his own initiative. What was she supposed to do? Turn against her father?

And yes she ommited what she actually needed the milk fruit for (attract a deer).
Though thats at the same time something Ezren were better off not knowing.

Honestly, i dont think neither Soren nor Claudia need a redemption arc at this point.

I wouldn't have expected Claudia to turn on Viren or even confront him because of what was happening with Gren. She could've thought to ask Viren why they were doing it though. She doesn't, she peers into the cell to update Viren on Runaan, but doesn't comment on Gren at all.

As for the deal with Ezran, I think that was meant to stand in contrast with how Callum and Rayla sometimes hide things to spare someone's feelings. Claudia meanwhile, hides what she needs from Ezran so she can get what she wants.

I agree that neither really need a redemption arc, though mostly because I don't think every sympathetic antagonist should have one.

[lord_khaine]

I wouldn't have expected Claudia to turn on Viren or even confront him because of what was happening with Gren. She could've thought to ask Viren why they were doing it though. She doesn't, she peers into the cell to update Viren on Runaan, but doesn't comment on Gren at all.

Its rather limited screen time they had, and it had to be spend on Claudia's instruction.
Im not going to count it against Claudia when it wasnt her who did it.


As for the deal with Ezran, I think that was meant to stand in contrast with how Callum and Rayla sometimes hide things to spare someone's feelings. Claudia meanwhile, hides what she needs from Ezran so she can get what she wants.

Claudia pretty directly send Ezren home after he had found the tree for her. I think its pretty biased to call that anything besides sparing him from learning what she were about to do.

Else. Well besides that, yes. Because i am hoping for enough nuance here, to allow someone to be an antagonist without being someone in need of redemption.

[Rockphed]

What about the enthusiastic plan to butcher a dragon?

[John Cribati]

Dragons are the enemy. Butcher away, tbh.

[lord_khaine]

Dragons are the enemy. Butcher away, tbh.

And this one had just commited its fair share of war crimes, burning civilians and children alike.
I were honestly cheering for Claudia as she shoot it down. And almost though it a shame it got lose.
(alright, no almost there)

[Aquillion]

I wouldn't have expected Claudia to turn on Viren or even confront him because of what was happening with Gren. She could've thought to ask Viren why they were doing it though. She doesn't, she peers into the cell to update Viren on Runaan, but doesn't comment on Gren at all.She trusts her father more than she should, but so did a lot of people.


As for the deal with Ezran, I think that was meant to stand in contrast with how Callum and Rayla sometimes hide things to spare someone's feelings. Claudia meanwhile, hides what she needs from Ezran so she can get what she wants.I don't honestly see anything wrong with slaughtering a deer to restore her brother's health. Again, it's no different than hunting. Some vegetarian-leaning viewers might disagree with her actions, but it doesn't strike me as evil, or as any more wrong than what people do every day.

Ezran might be clever and sensitive for his age, but he's ultimately a little kid. I don't blame her for not telling him everything in that situation. And I disagree with your parsing of why she didn't - yes, partially she was panicking and wanted to fix her brother as fast as possible, which was why she did it that way, but I think that "spare Ezran's feelings" was also part of it. She knew he was sensitive and didn't want him to know what she was doing because of that.

(She's also aware that people tend to view Dark Magic as worse than it deserves - ie. that Ezran might judge her more harshly for using the deer for magical purposes than he would for eating it. Remember how she was hurt when Callum reacted that way to her magic, say. I don't think it's unreasonable for her to be furtive given that Ezran is now best friends with someone who may very well think Claudia deserves to die for performing dark magic.)

Yes, she could have avoided involving him at all, and yes, she only involved him because she was desperate and felt she needed a deer very quickly. But she also had plenty of valid reasons to be less than forthright with Ezran under the circumstances.


And this one had just commited its fair share of war crimes, burning civilians and children alike.
I were honestly cheering for Claudia as she shoot it down. And almost though it a shame it got lose.
(alright, no almost there)The dragon thing is complicated because both sides kept escalating.

1. The dragon shouldn't have been trying to intimidate a human town in the first place. It was reckless and could easily have led to a violent confrontation (as, in fact, it did.)

2. Soren probably shouldn't have shot at it (ironically, while this is the part the show calls out the most, I feel that his actions were the most reasonable - his shot had zero real chance of injuring a dragon on its own; I feel if the dragon had been reasonable he'd have read it as a warning shot and backed off. I suppose you could argue Soren's intent was to kill it even if he had no hope of doing so, which was crossing the line; but his attack was so completely ineffectual that it seems silly.)

3. The dragon shouldn't have responded to what was basically a warning shot by escalating into indiscriminate mass-murder of civilians (realistically this was the most blameworthy decision in the process, because this was when people started to die rather than just two sides posturing at each other.)

4. Claudia and Soren... honestly probably made the right call in taking a genuine kill shot at the dragon at that point. No matter how they got to that point, they couldn't reasonably hope talk it down or anything like that, and the only alternative seemed to be to just let everyone in the town die, which would be ridiculous.

5. Tracking down the dragon to finish it off was... eh. At this point the fact that the two sides have no way to communicate sort of becomes relevant. Experience with past dragon-attacks also matters - do dragons generally keep coming until / unless they're finished off? Claudia and Soren can't stay at this town forever, and it's reasonable for them to assume that if they let the dragon go it'll come back and resume burning the place to the ground in revenge if they don't finish it off.

OTOH Claudia talking about how she's going to use it for parts was gauche and would probably quality as a war crime if the two sides had any real ability or effort devoted to communicating with each other. Even if killing it was justified, butchering it like an animal contributes to the issues that led to the war in the first place and only makes a resolution more difficult (this is one reason why real-world nations generally avoid war crimes in the first place.)

But given that dragons seem to likewise treat humans as animals (the dragon's attacks on the city were plainly targeting civilians in an unrestrained and excessive manner), I find it hard to blame her too much. The show is obviously about breaking vicious cycles like that, so I don't think her actions were right, but they were understandable.

(Well, sort of. The reality is that she wasn't making some deep moral judgment - she wanted to cut the dragon up because she wanted to use its parts for magic. Which, on reflection, might justify some of the hatred dragons and elves have for dark magic, if it leads to that sort of thinking...)

[John Cribati]

She trusts her father more than she should, but so did a lot of people.

Does Claudia really have that much of a reason not to trust him?

Viren telling Soren to murder the princes and make it look like an accident should raise eyebrows, sure. But what did he say to Claudia exactly? "If this mission somehow comes down to choosing the life of your brother over keeping the McGuffin that could spell doom for the kingdom and potentially all of humanity if it falls into the wrong hands, out of the wrong hands? It sucks but choose keeping the McGuffin that could spell doom for the kingdom and potentially all of humanity if it falls into the wrong hands, out of the wrong hands."

[Aquillion]

Well, it was a bit odd for him to throw Gren in jail. But I mean she trusts him more than she ought to from an omniscient out-of-universe perspective; I don't think her trust was unreasonable in-universe, no (although presumably she's doubting him now.)

Honestly, if we're talking redemption arcs, I'm more curious if they're going to do one for Viren. The show has devoted far more time to his characterization than to his children, and he obviously has a lot more to account for; at the same time, there's plenty of evidence that he has a noble side to him, and it's clear that he genuinely is aimed at the greater good.

(The other interesting thing is that if Viren has a redemption arc, and Aaravos turns out to be more sympathetic than people are assuming, then the show might not have one singular Big Bad at all, which might fit its themes - the "evil" comes from the vicious cycles of violence rather than from an evil dark lord or anything like that. Aaravos, remember, wanted to give magic to humans, which implies that he may actually have opposed the original war.)

[The Fury]

She trusts her father more than she should, but so did a lot of people.

True, though Viren didn't do anything suspicious until after King Harrow got assassinated. And not many people seemed aware of the fact that Viren even had secret chambers and dungeons, much less who and what he put in them.


I don't honestly see anything wrong with slaughtering a deer to restore her brother's health. Again, it's no different than hunting. Some vegetarian-leaning viewers might disagree with her actions, but it doesn't strike me as evil, or as any more wrong than what people do every day.

The issue that I took from it isn't that Claudia killed a cute baby deer, rather that she purposefully mislead Ezran into helping her because she knew that he wouldn't approve of what she was doing if he knew.


Ezran might be clever and sensitive for his age, but he's ultimately a little kid. I don't blame her for not telling him everything in that situation. And I disagree with your parsing of why she didn't - yes, partially she was panicking and wanted to fix her brother as fast as possible, which was why she did it that way, but I think that "spare Ezran's feelings" was also part of it. She knew he was sensitive and didn't want him to know what she was doing because of that.

That might have to be a point where we'll just have to disagree. I'll admit that my read is a lot less generous, though ultimately I agree that Claudia's action is understandable but I also think that it's manipulative and dishonest.

[Resileaf]

(The other interesting thing is that if Viren has a redemption arc, and Aaravos turns out to be more sympathetic than people are assuming, then the show might not have one singular Big Bad at all, which might fit its themes - the "evil" comes from the vicious cycles of violence rather than from an evil dark lord or anything like that. Aaravos, remember, wanted to give magic to humans, which implies that he may actually have opposed the original war.)

It would be a very mature look at war from a kid's show. That evil (generally) does not come from one side to the other, but from a never-ending cycle of attacks and counterattacks.
A very worthy lesson.

[John Cribati]

Also it should be noted that Viren told Soren "kill the princes" entirely unprompted, but Claudia actually asked (in jest, admittedly, but she did ask) whether the egg was more important than her brother.

[Metahuman1]

Also it should be noted that Viren told Soren "kill the princes" entirely unprompted, but Claudia actually asked (in jest, admittedly, but she did ask) whether the egg was more important than her brother.

Heck, the fact that he said it in response to a joke, and it was CLEARLY not the response she was expecting at the time only makes it more credible that she didn't immediately question it. People have been known to not think real clearly when you throw them badly off balance in a conversation.


Resileaf:

It would. I had wondered and thought abit about that being the angle they'd perhaps be going for back during season 1. And season 2 seems to be leaning more in that potential direction, assuming the Star Elf guy isn't a dark overlord type and Verin isn't just treated as irredeemable for the rest of the series.

I hope that it proves to be the case, it would be quite a solid decision. Much as I do enjoy my Dark Lord style villains in fiction.

[lord_khaine]

Well so far all our bad guys have had reasonable motivations.
The Dragons want to keep the humans in their own land.
Verin wants to protect humanity from getting exterminated by the monsters that killed the Queen, and god knows how many others.
Star Elf likely want to get free.

[Aquillion]

Well so far all our bad guys have had reasonable motivations.
The Dragons want to keep the humans in their own land.
I don't see this one as reasonable at all. Keep in mind that the whole "their own land" division only happened because the dragons engaged in a massive campaign of ethnic cleansing in the first place (the writers have specifically compared it to the Trial of Tears IIRC, so it's supposed to be seen as a horrific act that dramatically escalated the current cycle of violence.)

The direct cause of that was "humans use Dark Magic" (and presumably "some humans use dark magic fueled by living, sentient elves and dragons".) But it seems unlikely it was more than a tiny handful of humans actually doing so, which makes what the dragons and elves did grossly disproportionate.

[lord_khaine]

In this specific case i talked about the dragon Thunder, who were in charge of enforcing the divide between the two lands.

And atrocities in the past aside, then harshly patroling the divide is likely in theory the best way to avoid a new war between elves and humans.
In the dragons eyes this was a human/ork situation. And i doubt anyone would really argue against roasting any ork scouting party that crosses the border to keep the peace.


The direct cause of that was "humans use Dark Magic" (and presumably "some humans use dark magic fueled by living, sentient elves and dragons".) But it seems unlikely it was more than a tiny handful of humans actually doing so, which makes what the dragons and elves did grossly disproportionate.

Likely to the elves, the use of dark magic were a gross violation of the natural order, something on the line with necromancy or worse, where the humans took by force what they had not been given.
Of course though, yeah their response to that were grossly disproportionate.

Thats more or less the theme of the show. Everyone thinks their reactions are proportionate.
But they still spiral things further and further downwards.

[Weimann]

I know the discussion has moved on a bit, but let me just state for the record (because goddammit, I'm getting some use out of my literature classes):

A flat character is a character that has one or two big character traits that define their personality, and little beyond that. They're usually background characters, the type of characters you put in to fill a function in the narrative rather than being the focus of the narrative. By contrast, a round character has several, often conflicting character traits, and their complex reactions to the events of the narrative are interesting and touching.

Being a flat or round character does not have anything to do with their development. A dynamic character is one that changes between the start and the end of the narrative, in reaction to the events of the story and interplay with other characters. By contrast, a static character does not change, retaining the same general traits or perspectives throughout the story.

These concepts exist on separate axes. A flat character does not have to be static, nor does a round character have to be dynamic. Let's look at AtLA.
Flat and static characters: The Firelord. Toph's parents. The cabbage man.
Flat and dynamic characters: The Earth king. Suki. (I think, it was a while since I watched it, admittedly.)
Round and static characters: Azula. (Arguably Iroh.)
Round and dynamic characters: The Gaang. Zuko. (Is he usually included? Putting him in extra just in case.)

I would have a hard time calling any of the focus characters in the Dragon Prince flat. They might not be super logical or smart, but they're there.

In other news, I really like this show, you guys. I can feel that Avatar feel in it: the mix of action, offbeat humour and philosophical themes. Really hope there's a book three coming.