SCAG Cantrips on Eldritch Knight - Balanced here?

[Isaire]

Hey hivemind!

There was another thread recently about stacking spellcaster buffs etc etc and again it came up that the SCAG cantrips can be considered pretty op. I just wanted to check - how do people think eldritch knight balances with the SCAG cantrips? I was kinda assuming it wouldn't be that OP, as I'm playing with a group that don't min-max too much and I don't want to overshadow anyone. Trying to keep to mostly phb +1 to keep it fair (taking absorb elements, as rolled a 14 for Con, and sod dying again soon :D) and will have warcaster (starting at level 8). Not planning on min-maxing any further, probably just level up Con and Int for the rest of his career if he survives, using magic only really for defence, and using shield + longsword so no PAM shenanigans. Hopefully hivemind does not consider this particularly OP?

[Blood of Gaea]

Blade cantrips are only really powerful to enhance single attacks: Melee Rogues, Warcaster reactions, quickened spell and the like.

[RogueJK]

Blade cantrips are only really powerful to enhance single attacks: Melee Rogues, Warcaster reactions, quickened spell and the like.

Don't forget that once you hit Level 7 Eldritch Knight and pick up War Magic, you have the option to cast a melee cantrip for an attack and then make a bonus action normal melee attack each round, for a bit more damage than just the normal Attack + Extra Attack. (Although this War Magic damage is usually outclassed again once the EK picks up a third attack at Level 11, depending on the weapon and circumstances.)

Basically, the breakdown of an EK's attack option for optimized damage is as follows:

Levels 3-4: Melee cantrip for potential extra damage, although it won't always apply.
Levels 5-6: Attack+Extra Attack
Levels 7+: War Magic Melee Cantrip + Bonus Action Attack, unless you need your Bonus Action for something else.
Levels 11+: Either Attack + Extra Attack + Extra Attack or War Magic Melee Cantrip + Bonus Action Attack, depending on the situation.

(Note that there are a few circumstances when a melee cantrip could still be a better choice than Extra Attacks, such as using Green Flame Blade to attack a low AC enemy and splash damage onto a high AC enemy standing next to them.)

That's in addition to their usefulness on a character with Warcaster, for extra damage on Opportunity Attacks. If you have Warcaster, all OAs should be make with a melee cantrip.

So no, they're not overpowered for Eldritch Knights. But they are a good choice for Eldritch Knights, thanks their War Magic cantrip+attack option. And they're a good choice for anyone with Warcaster anyway, since it gives them a nice damage boost to their single Warcaster Opportunity Attack.

[Matticusrex]

Dont ever worry about the fighter or any of his archetypes ever being overpowered. Trust me.

[Blood of Gaea]

So no, they're not overpowered for Eldritch Knights. But they are a good choice for Eldritch Knights, thanks their War Magic cantrip+attack option. And they're a good choice for anyone with Warcaster anyway, since it gives them a nice damage boost to their single Warcaster Opportunity Attack.
That's useful yes, but it's not "really powerful" like I said in my post. It's a sidegrade rather than an upgrade.

[Tanarii]

Yup. It's pretty OP on EKs, because of War Magic. Unlike other Fighters, which have to choose between cantrip or extra attack. SCAG cantrip + bonus attack is always a fairly decent upgrade to damage, unless you're using GWM. (Which is its own OP mess.)

The one disadvantage is they don't benefit from undercutting the save at level 10. But given that EKs typically have significantly higher damage with the SCAG cantrips than other cantrips they can choose, that's not really a problem.

[RogueJK]

SCAG cantrip + bonus attack is always a fairly decent upgrade to damage, unless you're using GWM.

From Level 7 through Level 10, I'd agree. But starting at Level 11, it's not always an upgrade any more. Even without GWM or PAM or the like.

Take an EK who's using a Greatsword and has a 20 STR. At 7-10, they're doing 4d6+1d8+10 using War Magic to make a Booming Blade attack and their Bonus Action Attack. An average of 28.5 damage if both hit. Compared to just two Greatsword Attacks doing 4d6+10 for an average of 24 damage if both hit. So War Magic is a damage upgrade.

But at Level 11, the EK could be doing 6d6+15 with three Greatsword attacks, for an average of 36 damage if all three attacks hit. If they stick with War Magic, they're doing 4d6+2d8+10, an average of 33 damage.

So starting at Level 11, it's no longer always optimal to be using War Magic with a melee cantrip and bonus attack any more, unless you have a situation where you can force the melee cantrip's rider damage to trigger, like an enemy who has a reason to move, or two enemies who are standing right next to each other.

Besides the slightly higher average damage, there are a few other benefits to going with 3 normal attacks instead of War Magic, like the ability to attack three enemies in one turn (like when mowing through low HP mooks or when running past three enemies with Mobility), or the fact that it leaves your Bonus Action free for other uses.

[Chronos]

Of course, even without SCAG, a 7th-level Eldritch Knight could still cast a damage cantrip and then follow with a regular attack, which would still often be more damage than two regular attacks. The benefit of a SCAG cantrip there isn't the increase in damage from a normal attack to a Booming Blade; it's the increase in damage from a Firebolt or whatever to a Booming Blade.

[Tanarii]

Of course, even without SCAG, a 7th-level Eldritch Knight could still cast a damage cantrip and then follow with a regular attack, which would still often be more damage than two regular attacks. The benefit of a SCAG cantrip there isn't the increase in damage from a normal attack to a Booming Blade; it's the increase in damage from a Firebolt or whatever to a Booming Blade.
Exactly. War Magic is typically already a damage upgrade. But since EKs usually have about a +1 to hit on Str over Int (if using attack roll cantrips), it's often a decent bump up to be able to switch to Str. Not to mention that attack roll cantrips aren't what EKs tend to take, since they get disadvantage at melee range, and save cantrips are even less likely to 'hit'.

Also not even getting into people that think dumping Int on an EK is a good idea. The SCAG cantrips give those folks an easy out, so they don't have to pay any price for their decisions.

[Citan]

Yup. It's pretty OP on EKs, because of War Magic. Unlike other Fighters, which have to choose between cantrip or extra attack. SCAG cantrip + bonus attack is always a fairly decent upgrade to damage, unless you're using GWM. (Which is its own OP mess.)

The one disadvantage is they don't benefit from undercutting the save at level 10. But given that EKs typically have significantly higher damage with the SCAG cantrips than other cantrips they can choose, that's not really a problem.
I'll have to disagree on this one.

The amount of damage is significantly higher *only* if the rider is triggered. Meaning you have Booming Blade on a enemy that moves (away?), or GreenFlameBlade with another enemy close.

And it's only if you hit: if you miss your cantrip, you don't deal any damage.
Granted, against AC 14-15, you should usually count on hitting. On higher AC, it may be more of a gamble.

More importantly, it's also preventing you to do some useful party tactics with Shove and Grapple.

And once you get 3rd Attack it evens out again overall (= you deal a bit more damage, but not that impressive of a difference).

The only way I'd say it can be overpowered is if you stack features around (improving chance to hit with a friendly Bless or Greater Invisibiility at high level, getting Warcaster to re-cast Booming Blade when enemy just moved away triggering the current one's rider).

Without the rider, it's either slightly better or slightly worse than Extra Attack depending on level, choice of feats and weapons. With the rider, it becomes decently more powerful, but it means it's in essence situational unless you work with pals to make it happen regularly (in which case it's rather the good teamwork that has to be applauded here).

[Willie the Duck]

Since the release of SCAG, the question has arisen "exactly who are these for?" (along with a side helping of, "in what situations does this become OP?") regarding the combat cantrips. My guess regarding intent is that the designers expected Arcana Clerics, AT Rogues, and EK Fighters to pick these up.

As others have mentioned, EK only gets routine benefit from the spell at levels 7-10. In general, classes with multiple attacks are like that. The primary beneficiaries of the spell are classes which might like to be in melee, but only get one attack (rogues, clerics, fighter1/wizard X, etc.). Rogues in particular will benefit from Booming Blade, as they can often disengage (as a bonus action) and hopefully force an opponent to trigger the rider or make a suboptimal action.

Overall, SCAG cantrips are things that look quite overpowered, but I keep waiting for the build where it makes a specific character overpowered (where it seems to be the SCAG cantrip that is the culprit).

That said, once you have played an Arcane Trickster or melee cleric with those cantrips, you suddenly remember how hard it was to be a melee rogue or melee cleric without them.

EDIT: Oh, and as others have mentioned, if you are going to have the War Caster feat anyways, being able to use Booming Blade as an OA is just plain great!

[dejarnjc]

Definitely not overpowered on an EK.

At level 7 EK's get war magic but they also get 2nd level slots and shadow blade so it becomes a choice of...
Attack twice with shadowblade: (2d8 + 5 ) *2 = 28 (shadowblade also has the potential of getting advantage on your attacks easily though too though it does have a resource cost)
Use War magic w/ booming blade: (2d8+5) + (1d8+5) = 23.5 or 32.5 with the booming blade rider.



It does get even more interesting at level 11...
Attack three times with shadowblade: (2d8+5)*3 = 42 damage, possibly with easy advantage
Use War magic w/ booming blade: (3d8+5) + (1d8+5) = 28 or 41.5 with the booming blade rider


Shadowblade is the clear winner with how easy it is to get advantage with the spell. However it does cost spell slots and does cost concentration.

[RogueJK]

At level 7 EK's get war magic but they also get 2nd level slots and shadow blade so it becomes a choice of...
Attack twice with shadowblade: (2d8 + 5 ) *2 = 28 (shadowblade also has the potential of getting advantage on your attacks easily though too though it does have a resource cost)
Use War magic w/ booming blade: (2d8+5) + (1d8+5) = 23.5 or 32.5 with the booming blade rider.


Shadowblade is the clear winner with how easy it is to get advantage with the spell. However it does cost spell slots and does cost concentration.


... Why wouldn't you just attack with Shadow Blade and War Magic Booming Blade? It's not an either/or situation. They can be used together. (Unless you happen to be playing AL and you're limited to PHB+1, since Shadow Blade is in XGtE and the melee cantrips are in SCAG.)

The EK would have to wait until Level 8 to pick up Shadow Blade, because it's not an Evocation or Abjuration spell. But starting at 8th Level, an EK could attack with War Magic Booming Blade while Concentrating on using a Shadow Blade as their weapon. That would do 3d8+5 on the Booming Shadow Blade attack, and another 2d8+5 on your bonus Shadow Blade attack, for a total of 5d8+10 which is an average of 32.5, or 41.5 with the BB rider.

Any way you slice it, that beats out attacking with just 2x normal Shadow Blade attacks for 4d8+10 and an average of 28.

You couldn't use War Magic on the round that you cast Shadow Blade, since it already uses up your Bonus Action to cast the spell. On that initial round you have no choice but to do 2x normal Shadow Blade Attacks. But every round after that it'd be better to use War Magic for Booming Shadow Blade + Shadow Blade.

(At least for Levels 8-10... As usual, War Magic then gets outclassed at Level 11 when the EK gets their third attack and is able to start doing 3x Shadow Blade attacks, unless you have a way to reliably force the melee cantrips' rider damage to kick in. The gap widens even further if the EK starts upcasting Shadow Blade into a 3rd Level slot at 13th Level.)

[Tanarii]

Definitely not overpowered on an EK. You seem to have left out one entire attacks in the War Magic option.

At level 7, SCAG cantrip + bonus action attack will always be greater than 2 attacks, because it literally is 2 attacks plus extra magic damage.

It's only at level 11 that you start taking into account the possibility of aa third particularly high damage extra attack (e.g. GWM) doing more than the extra magic damage of the SCAG cantrip.

Of course, most games don't go to level 11, or end shortly thereafter. The important levels to be concerned about are 3-4 (BB, but no Extra Attack), 5-6 (BB vs Extra Attack), and 7-10 (BB + War Magic vs Extra Attack).

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Unrelelated to damage, BB (in particular) also gets the major benefit of increasing your tanking capability.

[DarkKnightJin]

As others have explained with numbers, it's not OP, and you will probably not outshine anybody at your table.

That said, I feel the SCAG cantrips were added to give EK and AT some needed love because they felt a bit underwhelming in what they were supposed to do. With the SCAG cantrips, they can feel like the 'magical warrior' and 'spell thief' they were envisioned as.

For a Rogue, BB is just a straight damage upgrade. For a Fighter, even an EK, it's not that clear cut. Sometimes you don't want to overkill a low-hp enemy and save a strike for the guy hounding you from the other side.

I think the SCAG cantrips are fine as is. And personally don't see what the fuss is about with people claiming they're 'too strong'.
There's some nivhey situations were they can be really good. Booming Blade usually has the rider dragged into it. Which just makes it a nice way for the EK using to try and keep the enemy by their side.
Though most fights I've seen end up with it turning into a DPS race to slug the other guy down before you bite it. Making BB's rider effectively non-existant.

[djreynolds]

Its not OP in the least, because with magic initiate any class can use BB or GFB

IMO, its good to have options. Sometimes war magic is very useful, I quite like lightning lure and slash (I feel like that dude from Mortal Combat).

And most of the EKs I've seen in play are S&B, I rarely see GWM or archers or TWF and I see many dexterity based EKs

Not only are the cantrips balanced but they are thematically fitting, and they allow flexibility. You can firebolt one individual up to 120ft away and move and cut up someone else. And its logical to assume that a strength based EK with have a higher intelligence than dexterity, so now they have a reliable ranged option other than a javelin.

[Willie the Duck]

... Why wouldn't you just attack with Shadow Blade and War Magic Booming Blade? It's not an either/or situation. They can be used together. (Unless you happen to be playing AL and you're limited to PHB+1, since Shadow Blade is in XGtE and the melee cantrips are in SCAG.)

True (assuming this isn't AL). It just further nails down that extra attacks>BB at level 5-6 and 11+. However, as your total damage increases, the marginal utility of the small amount of damage that BB adds becomes less and less impressive. In other words, if anyone ever commends you on how powerful your EK is, it won't be because of your SCAG cantrips.

[Isaire]

Given that I rolled worse than the standard array, and put my racial +2 into my dump stat because it suited the character, I don't think anyone will be complaining that I am op if the cantrips are fine :D
14 con and 14 int at level 8 on EK is a little sad..

[Tanarii]

Given that I rolled worse than the standard array, and put my racial +2 into my dump stat because it suited the character, I don't think anyone will be complaining that I am op if the cantrips are fine :D
14 con and 14 int at level 8 on EK is a little sad..
You can get away with Str 16, Int 14 on a level 8 EK. It's 5e. It's forgiving on stats.

And BB doesn't depend on a the casting stat, which is why they're so powerful an option for players that want to discard Int entirely without making War Magic pointless.

Players don't tend to notice other players being outside of baseline parameters until it's pretty wildly outside. For that matters DMs don't either. So GWM, PAM or SS is instantly noticed, for example. SGAC cantrips can be shown to be OP because they're a upgrade except in very specific other OP situations. Like comparisons to GWM. But unless you're twin BB plus divine striking etc etc, it's entirely possible no one will bat an eyelid.

[dejarnjc]

... Why wouldn't you just attack with Shadow Blade and War Magic Booming Blade? It's not an either/or situation. They can be used together. (Unless you happen to be playing AL and you're limited to PHB+1, since Shadow Blade is in XGtE and the melee cantrips are in SCAG.)

The EK would have to wait until Level 8 to pick up Shadow Blade, because it's not an Evocation or Abjuration spell. But starting at 8th Level, an EK could attack with War Magic Booming Blade while Concentrating on using a Shadow Blade as their weapon. That would do 3d8+5 on the Booming Shadow Blade attack, and another 2d8+5 on your bonus Shadow Blade attack, for a total of 5d8+10 which is an average of 32.5, or 41.5 with the BB rider.

Any way you slice it, that beats out attacking with just 2x normal Shadow Blade attacks for 4d8+10 and an average of 28.

You couldn't use War Magic on the round that you cast Shadow Blade, since it already uses up your Bonus Action to cast the spell. On that initial round you have no choice but to do 2x normal Shadow Blade Attacks. But every round after that it'd be better to use War Magic for Booming Shadow Blade + Shadow Blade.

(At least for Levels 8-10... As usual, War Magic then gets outclassed at Level 11 when the EK gets their third attack and is able to start doing 3x Shadow Blade attacks, unless you have a way to reliably force the melee cantrips' rider damage to kick in. The gap widens even further if the EK starts upcasting Shadow Blade into a 3rd Level slot at 13th Level.)

True, I didn't take that into account. Thanks.

[Skylivedk]

At 7th level, the EK has 6 spells pr day (4 lvl 1/2 lvl 2). With war magic, he'll have a small damage boost he can use almost at will. Still seems on par maybe slightly below the battlemaster and his 5 superiority dice per short rest.

Not OP. I think most who claim it to be OP base it on a presumption that EKs should have high int and anything making them less MAD is bad. YMMV

[ChiefBigFeather]

Overall, SCAG cantrips are things that look quite overpowered, but I keep waiting for the build where it makes a specific character overpowered (where it seems to be the SCAG cantrip that is the culprit).

I would be very cautious with the word "overpowered" but GFB looks very strong on a Dragon Sorc x/Hexblade 1, mostly level 7+.

[RogueJK]

I would be very cautious with the word "overpowered" but GFB looks very strong on a Dragon Sorc x/Hexblade 1, mostly level 7+.

Make it a Tiefling with the Elemental Adept and Flames of Phlegethos feats for even more fiery fun.

[ChiefBigFeather]

Make it a Tiefling with the Elemental Adept and Flames of Phlegethos feats for even more fiery fun.

Nice find! Especially if combined with the Fierna variant from the Tome of Foes. I'm compiling a guide at the moment. If I ever publish it, I will make sure to include it.

[Tanarii]

Not OP. I think most who claim it to be OP base it on a presumption that EKs should have high int and anything making them less MAD is bad. YMMV
Its pretty clear that the designers envisioned part of what would balance the SCAG cantrips for sorcs, warlocks and wizards is it would make them more MAD.

Their error was not accounting for it being a flat damage increase for single attack melee, possible while making them less MAD. E.g. especially ATs and EKs. And yeah, thats a bad thing. It frees up a lot of ability score points intended to be used at no cost while simultaneously increasing damage output. Neither of which are something ATs or EKs struggled with.

[Rukelnikov]

Its pretty clear that the designers envisioned part of what would balance the SCAG cantrips for sorcs, warlocks and wizards is it would make them more MAD.

Their error was not accounting for it being a flat damage increase for single attack melee, possible while making them less MAD. E.g. especially ATs and EKs. And yeah, thats a bad thing. It frees up a lot of ability score points intended to be used at no cost while simultaneously increasing damage output. Neither of which are something ATs or EKs struggled with.

If pre-SCAG the AT/EKs were putting more points in INT it means there was some use for it, higher DC's were meaningful or something. If they now divert those points somewhere else, their versatility is being diminished since their effectivenes with a good part of their suubclass features has been lessened.

On the other hand, if they never put any points in INT to begin with, then:

* The AT has to go melee instead of sniping, and in melee missing means it cant BA dual weild, so it misses a round of sneak attack.
* The EK has to spend one of its 2/3 cantrips for a marginal damage increase only useful for around 4 levels and in OA if they took Warcaster (which they probably did take tbf).

[Skylivedk]

Its pretty clear that the designers envisioned part of what would balance the SCAG cantrips for sorcs, warlocks and wizards is it would make them more MAD.

Their error was not accounting for it being a flat damage increase for single attack melee, possible while making them less MAD. E.g. especially ATs and EKs. And yeah, thats a bad thing. It frees up a lot of ability score points intended to be used at no cost while simultaneously increasing damage output. Neither of which are something ATs or EKs struggled with.

I'm comparing to the battlemaster for the EK and the swashbuckler/assassin for the AT. I'd say the AT got the better bargain. I don't really catch your point overall though. Pre-shadow blade, I have a hard time seeing the EK outdamage the Battlemaster throughout an adventuring day for the first many levels. Once they can, we're more back to the challenge of spells scaling Quadraticly than the cantrip tipping the scales. In other words, I'm happy to be convinced by good examples.