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Guinea Anubis
2007-09-27, 07:13 AM
So I am playing a PC that has come down with a bit of a god complex after being driven a little nuts. Now yes my guy is a little nuts and 100% thinks he is a living god but he is very charismatic.

So we meet up with an NPC cleric and my guys (after some really lucky Dice rolls) gets the cleric to give up worshiping his god and start to worship Me. Now the prob is we need this NPC cleric for healing since are last cleric we hand in are group got called back to his homelands (the player got a new job).

So is there any way to let this Cleric still cast healing spells?

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-27, 07:19 AM
He worships you because you represent a concept. So even if he does not know it, you aren't giving him the power, the overarching concept is. So he gets all of the spells he needs and can pick any domain.

Ditto
2007-09-27, 07:35 AM
Well, he can't pick *any* domains - just the ones associated with his god, namely, you. So *you* can pick any domains, and rationalize it to your newfound follower. Gods can't say "Y'know, pick a few and get back to me." to their followers, so even if the cleric isn't technically getting power from you, he's getting it from what he believes you are - and gods have prescribed domains.

Techonce
2007-09-27, 08:19 AM
It would depend on the campaign setting.

In FR you'd be in trouble since you have to follow a specific diety.

In your case...

I've always thought that getting your divine power from a concept was kind of wacky. What's the point of having gods if you don't have to worship them to access divine power? Druids I don't have a problem with since you can argue that nature itself has its own power, but the guy that has a really stong belief in the power of baked goods, shouldn't gain the ability to heal people.

Maybe there is another god, a god of trickery that is providing the spells behind the scenes. Lots of laughs (for him) when he pulls the divine support at a crucial moment.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-27, 08:27 AM
Depends on the DM.

Personally, I might have you visited by some Higher Being that offers you precisely this power. Please sign here, in blood.

downthetimehole
2007-09-27, 09:45 AM
You could say that the power comes from the cleric directly and not the god, that his spells and healing are his own but is only able to access them by believing its a god working through him or something like that.

I would still give clerics the ability to cast spells, but then again this is something I've encountered before by playing a character who was a cleric to himself, and again when playing a cleric to a god that only my character believed in. And even once more when my character was being a charlatan priest to some a god he made up. Each time I got followers and clerics.

Devils_Advocate
2007-09-27, 06:21 PM
I've always thought that getting your divine power from a concept was kind of wacky. What's the point of having gods if you don't have to worship them to access divine power?
In most D&D campaign worlds, the gods are widely worshipped by people who they don't grant any special powers to. In fact, I understand that people have been known to worhip (supposed) deities in real life without receiving any sort of tangible benefit, as crazy as that sounds. :smallwink:

Also, the gods regulate whatever aspects of existance that fall into their particular portfolios. This is why some people worship them. If you get a lot of strorms where you live, you probably want to be on the good side of the God of Storms.

Deities have a much broader role in the world than "granters of special power to some of their followers."


Druids I don't have a problem with since you can argue that nature itself has its own power, but the guy that has a really stong belief in the power of baked goods, shouldn't gain the ability to heal people.
Well, Deities and Demidods says that, while impersonal forces (like Nature, or, say, Magic) can have power independant from any faith that motals place in them, a philosophy needs people who believe in it before it can bestow magical powers. And with enough followers, I would argue that the philosophy itself becomes an important force in the world, rendering the distinction moot. Sadly, no hard numbers are given, only that a "philosophy that only one person believes in is not strong enough to bestow magical power on that person." So, technically, one could argue that two people is enough, and thus if Anubis1179's PC could get his cleric friend to deeply believe in some philosophy that he himself already passionately believes in, that could be sufficient to restore his cleric powers. And hey, maybe it's something that plenty of other people already believe in too. Then it should be easy, right? :smallamused: Regardless, teaching his new follower what to believe would certainly be in keeping with his view of himself as a god.

Heck, maybe this is how gods get started. I mean, if you can embrace a way of life so thoroughly that you really do embody it, and get others to recognize you and revere you as the embodiment of what they hold dear... you're practically a god already, really. You might not be as powerful as other deities, but, y'know, power is relative. High-level characters can definitely do some superhuman stuff already. Hmmmmm, maybe this guy actually isn't so crazy after all...

So, here's my suggested plan of action: God Boy needs to be commited to some sort of Worldview/Life Path/Alignment combo, preach it to his new lackey, and get the lackey to believe in it. If he's acting like a proper god, he's probably doing this already, dispensing his personal brand of wisdom all over the place.

Carefully choose the three domains that best represent your teachings. Be sure to include any domains in the associated alignment. (So, if it's a Chaotic Good philosophy, include the Chaos and Good domains, leaving just one choice.) Oh, and if you're using the standard rules instead of something more Eberronnish, the cleric will need to be within one alignment step of this. Hopefully that isn't a problem.

Work out what time of day your cleric will pray for spells. Whichever time he already prayed at before will probably work out best for him, but in some cases something else might be more thematically appropriate, e.g. if your dogma is based around renewal, he should probably pray at sunrise.

Wait for the appropriate time of day. Have him pray.

... Let me know how that works out for ya.


Maybe there is another god, a god of trickery that is providing the spells behind the scenes.
I think that official material includes instances of stuff like this, gods using lesser beings as proxies, whether said beings be demon lords, devil princes, or just a powerful mortal being like a beholder or a dragon. Using a super-charasmatic human in this fashion wouldn't be too much of a stretch.

Chronos
2007-09-27, 07:23 PM
Carefully choose the three domains that best represent your teachings. Be sure to include any domains in the associated alignment. (So, if it's a Chaotic Good philosophy, include the Chaos and Good domains, leaving just one choice.)Gods aren't necessarily limited to three domains, and most have more. Four seems to be about average, and some have as many as six (Obad-Hai has all four elements, Plant, and Animal).

F.H. Zebedee
2007-09-28, 12:23 AM
This is a discount God, so he'd probably only warrant two or three domains at the most. ;)

0oo0
2007-09-28, 12:48 AM
It would depend on the campaign setting.

In FR you'd be in trouble since you have to follow a specific diety.

In your case...

I've always thought that getting your divine power from a concept was kind of wacky. What's the point of having gods if you don't have to worship them to access divine power? Druids I don't have a problem with since you can argue that nature itself has its own power, but the guy that has a really stong belief in the power of baked goods, shouldn't gain the ability to heal people.

Maybe there is another god, a god of trickery that is providing the spells behind the scenes. Lots of laughs (for him) when he pulls the divine support at a crucial moment.

emphasis mine, because that would in fact be an awesome cleric. Reminds me of Piffiney a bit, and think of all the cookies you would get!

Hawriel
2007-09-28, 12:52 AM
I would say that the NPC cleric who has forsaken his god for a mortal man would lose any and all clerical powers. Your PC is not a god and cannot give devine power. I would ask this, would his now former god punish the NPC and more likly the PC for this transgretion?

Druids may draw power from nature, but nature was created by a god. The same goes for wizards and magic.

Techonce
2007-09-28, 07:18 AM
Druids may draw power from nature, but nature was created by a god. The same goes for wizards and magic.

This varies by campaign setting...

As for following a philospohy and not god...

IMHO, there are a few issues here.

It opens it up to powergaming. I've had players pick the domains ala carte and say they are a cleric who follows a concept and not a diety. This lets them get the benefits of being a cleric, but not the downsides. THey can set their prayer time for any time, not have to worry about followers of an opposing god, not have a recognizable holy symbol, etc. It would be the equivalent of a PC making up a god and inserting it into your world.

While I can see that a large belief in a philosophy can potentially generate enough power to possibly allow clerics, it would have to be a fair number of people. Otherwise the ability to cast clerical spells would be commonplace. Unless it's ot just the beleif in something, but also a preexisting link, kind of like a sorceror, that is also required.

Fighteer
2007-09-28, 08:22 AM
The nice thing about being a real god is that, when some pretender comes along and starts trying to grant spells and domains to people, you can go give him the smiting that he's due.

In my opinion as a former DM, your PC's actions would have one of the following consequences:

1. He is simply insane, and grants no powers or spells. Depending on how long his fellow PCs are willing to put up with his nonsense, he eventually recovers (or gets healed), or winds up in a nice happy padded room with happy friendly people in happy white coats.

2. He somehow manages to gather enough followers to allow his religion to be considered a "cause", and grant spells of up to, say, 2nd level, with a single domain. Doing this attracts the attention of other priesthoods and causes them to go after the "heretic" (or seek to recruit him, depending on alignment and philosophy). Much hilarity ensues.

Under no circumstances should a PC ever be capable of personally granting spells or powers unless the campaign is specifically designed with the possibility of ascending to godhood. Remember that a minimum of Divine Rank 1 is required to have a portfolio and grant spells/powers. In a "standard" campaign, even a single Divine Rank is hideously unbalancing. You also have to consider that if it's so easy to become divine in your game world, there must be hundreds of thousands of petty demigods running around.

As for this cleric you supposedly persuaded to worship you, I would rule that no Diplomacy or Bluff check, no matter how well-rolled, can convince someone to fundamentally alter their beliefs and world view. If he willingly decided to convert to your "religion", forsaking his old, he would immediately lose all powers of his former religion and suffer any consequences associated with doing so. Whether he subsequently receives any powers from you is subject to the question above. As the DM, I might even rule that he'd require an atonement to be cast by a priest of your religion. Certainly, he'd require that spell to go back to his old one should yours not work out.

leperkhaun
2007-09-28, 10:10 AM
I would doubt that the NPC would be able to cast clerical spells. For one if you use the concept idea to grant spells, the NPC is NOT following a consept, he is following you.

The only way i could think that this would work is 1) you follow a god and that god grants the npc his spells 2) some other ubercreature/god somehow noticed and is just granting spells without telling you and him.

Under no circimstances should an NPC be able to follow a PC and the PC is able to grant spells (unless the PC is a rank 1 diety or higher).

If you are converting that cleric to follow your faith concept thats another thing entirly, they would gain spells, but they wouldnt worship you, you would be a high priest or some such.

wowy319
2007-09-28, 10:16 AM
I would doubt that it would give him all the powers of a cleric, but intense faith in something, and I mean ZEALOUS faith, may be enough to grant the adept class, but not much more than that. If I were the DM, the most I would allow would be a level or two at the most.

But that's me.