Why are the Elder Evils so weak?

[StevenC21]

I'm sort of new to 3.5, and I'm not very good at gauging power levels, but just looking at the CRs for these supposed "Elder Evils"... they are very, very weak. The gods are supposed to fear these things, and yet some of them are literally CR 16 creatures. I don't understand. Are these CRs greatly underestimated, or are the creatures really this pathetic?

I am of course referring to the Elder Evils sourcebook.

And yes, I'm annoyed about this. If I'm going to get a book filled with supposed world ending threats, I would think that they wouldn't get utterly ****stomped by a Balor, according to their Challenge Ratings at least.

GRR!




I would like to note that while this could be seen as me "trolling", I am honestly just very aggravated by this, on several levels. On one, I don't like the prospect that these Elder Evils are incredibly weak, but on the other, I also don't like that I don't know enough to determine it myself. Its very frustrating.

Anyways, what are your thoughts on these creatures? Are they weaker/stronger/equal to their Challenge Ratings?

[Silva Stormrage]

Almost all of the elder evil stat blocks aren't the actual elder evils. They are minor fragments or similar concepts. The elder evil's full stat block is usually "You lose the campaign". If they fully get summoned the world ends.

Atropus is an entire planet the statblock is for a minor avatar on it's surface.

Sertrous and Leviathan are explicitly just aspects.

Pandorym is a fragment of the main creature's mind and is a 20th level psion.

Ragnora likewise is just a fragment who infests the world upon awakening.

Father Llymic and The Hulks of Zoretha are more terrifying in how they affect the world than raw personal power (Shutting off the sun and causing everyone to go into a rage respectively).

The worm that walks likewise is supposed to be threatening due to his unending army rather than his own personal power (But since he is a full caster really he is quite strong)

I have no idea whats up with Zargon who is stupidly weak even for the book and what he is supposed to have done in the past.

Really the Elder Evils are actually decently fine at their own power levels IMO. The ones that the gods fear them in their full power which often don't have stats. The ones that are fully summoned usually have some reaaaally dangerous effect that covers the entire world, so you can see why the gods might be a bit nervous about them.

I agree they could be more optimized but thats WoTC power levels for you. It's not too hard to adjust their feats or give them better spell selection.

Edit: As for which ones would lose to a Balor?

Atropus slaughters a balor with it's unending army of undead.

Father Lymric could easily kite a balor (Assuming it's pitch black darkness from his sign) around and could probably just kill it in melee but it would be an actual fight then. Also Father Lymric has an army with him.

As for the hulks, there are 5 female and 1 male hulks if I remember correctly. They can all just use their breath weapon on the Balor and one shot it if it ever attempts to engage them.

The advanced leviathan aspect auto hits the Balor has about triple the balor's HP has better melee and better damage with the same AC. The balor can easily flee from the leviathan aspect but the balor loses that fight hard if they actually to the death.

Fragment of Pandorym: 20th level psion utterly destroys a balor moving on.

Ragnora has 480 HP Fast Healing and high DR and can spawn CR 15 monsters which can themselves start spawning Umber hulks. Ragnora can overrun the balor with minions it creates in the fight effortlessly. Ragnora could just melee the balor to death but that is going to take a while and the balor can just flee.

An aspect of Serterous can actually prevent a balor from fleeing with his standard action unhallow + dimensional anchor and from there he can effortlessly grapple and drain the balor of charisma until the balor is his helpless slave. He could also just drive the balor insane with symbol of insanity.

The worm that walks is likewise a 20th level spellcaster and just horribly stomps the balor.

Even lowly Zargon is immune to 90% of what a Balor can do and has regeneration 50. Zargon can easily out melee the balor dealing about 200 damage in a full attack against a balor.

[StevenC21]

Yes, I was mostly looking at Zargon when I wrote this post up...

I was reading his fluff and I was like "holy crap this guy is going to be so overpowered!"

...

And then I read CR 16 and it was all downhill from there...

I truly have no idea what WoTC was thinking.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I truly have no idea what WoTC was thinking.
They were thinking: "Well, the ELH is full of crap, and really there's no point in having levels beyond 20, and frankly most people don't play past level 15 anyway, and generally most people don't play at high levels of optimization so they can't engage with god-level power, so why don't we make a handbook that covers game-ending bosses that normal parties can sensibly interact with?".

[StevenC21]

But the book literally sources the ELH.

Page 4, "What you need to play".

[Silva Stormrage]

But the book literally sources the ELH.

Page 4, "What you need to play".

Thats because some of the elder evil's aspects have epic feats. Not that you are intended to fight the monsters as an epic level PC.

The levels you are supposed to fight the monsters are.

Atropus: 20
Father Llymic: 17
Hulks: 20
Leviathan: 20
Pandorym: 20
Ragnora: 20
Sertrous: 19
Worm that walks: 18
Zargon: 12!!!! (Well 12-17 but seriously. Zargon at level 12 is terrifying for a mid/low optimized party that wasn't prepared for him)

[StevenC21]

Zargon: 12!!!! (Well 12-17 but seriously. Zargon at level 12 is terrifying for a mid/low optimized party that wasn't prepared for him)

What page does it say this? I'm looking at the book but I'm not seeing a spot where it gives a recommended level, except of course for the CR stuff.

[Silva Stormrage]

What page does it say this? I'm looking at the book but I'm not seeing a spot where it gives a recommended level, except of course for the CR stuff.

In their sample campaign options under the Timeline header for each Elder Evil. It gives EL for the various signs which means when the players are supposed to be encountering those signs.

Zargon's is page 146-147

[Troacctid]

You have to keep in mind that Elder Evils isn't Zargon's first appearance. He dates all the way back to the AD&D Dungeon Module B4: The Lost City, where he was meant to be a deadly boss fight for...4th level characters.

This creature is Zargon (AC0, HD12; hp 80; MV 30'; #AT 7; D 6 x 1-8/3d8; Save F12; ML12; AL C). It will try to attack and slay any party member it can catch, striking with its claws and biting.

Although Zargon is ancient, it is no god. It is a cunning creature that discovered its "godhood" makes it easier to get victims. Zargon was worshipped by primitive peoples in early times, but retreated underground when the primitives were wiped out by the ancestors of the Cynidiceans. Zargon remained in strange hibernation for many years. By chance, the Cynidiceans built the pyramid on the spot where Zargon's original shrine stood, and the later digging of the Cynidicean slaves awakened the creature.

Zargon can regenerate its body as long as its great horn is not destroyed. Regeneration from the bare horn may take a number of years, but otherwise Zargon is likely to be at full strength whenever the party encounters it. Zargon's horn can only be destroyed by being cast into a volcanic fire (like the Eye of Zargon in the underground city, area Q). Zargon will not regenerate during an encounter (it regrows too slowly for that).
Dragon #315 took a crack at updating the module to 3.5e and gave Zargon a new, CR 16 statblock, which I'm guessing influenced his stats in Elder Evils.

[StevenC21]

Yeah, but he was supposed to be an epic threat that once controlled the Nine Hells.

A fricking PIT FIEND can smoke this guy, going by CR.

[RifleAvenger]

... going by CR.Power levels are CR is bulls**t.

If you need proof, stop into the Immortals Handbook thread.

Or just look at a lowly CR 3 druid NPC (with Greenbound Summoning and Ashbound for feats, and a chronocharm of the uncaring archmage). Alternatively, play that druid as a PC against any published module for 3rd level characters, running the NPC's as intended by the designers, and watch it solo the module.

In reality, the specifics of abilities (especially spells), tactics, and strategy matters way more than CR. Low CR monsters can still terrorize or wipe out a mid-level party if they act like an actual army instead of snack size XP packets. There are lot of low-mid level modules I think are impossible, without using stuff like the above druid, if the intelligent humanoids are actually played as such. One surviving guard in something like Keep on the Borderlands can bring down an entire adventure's worth of enemies to surround and cut off the party.

[unseenmage]

Remember too that monsters as printed are supposed to be their weak-ish to average version.

Its assumed that GMs who want a stronger version will add equipment, buff spells, templates, or even class levels.

[Afgncaap5]

Remember too that monsters as printed are supposed to be their weak-ish to average version.

Its assumed that GMs who want a stronger version will add equipment, buff spells, templates, or even class levels.

Yeah, this really needs to be emphasized. Between the expectation that GMs will improve stuff on the fly, the game being geared toward people who genuinely don't optimize due to either preference or experience (lotsa play styles out there, not judging), most of the elder evils just being a weakened form for or manifestation of an even greater entity, and the majority of the game world's population usually clocking in at having less than 5 levels in NPC classes, these things are big deals.

Also, I want to emphasize that Balors *themselves* are big deals, tending to be either the generals of full on demon lords or minor princelings themselves. As players we can look across all the options and possibilities and everything seems weak when it's "merely" a level 19 challenge, but in the reality of the moment for most entities in the game world, these things are straight up nightmares.

[Bohandas]

I think the doylist explanation is that they're meant as big bads for campaigns and campaign worlds that aren't meant to go into epic.

Admittedly though this could be a problem if they are used in most of the established campaign settings, as most of them have established characters or organizations that are vastly more powerful than the elder evils' stats. Faerun is full of epic spellcasters, Eberron has an entire continent populated by true dragons with player class levels, and Greyhawk has all sorts of demigods running around (although this last case is at least partly accounted for with the Evils' various divine magic nullifying powers)


Yeah, but he was supposed to be an epic threat that once controlled the Nine Hells.

And that Asmodeus couldn't kill. There's no shortage of lava in the nine hells (except in the two ice layers) and even if there was, Gehenna is conveniently adjacent.

Furthermore, he's had eons to get back up to full power, unless the campaign takes place in the years immediately following the fall of the Baatorans and Obryiths

[Cosi]

Zargon apparently as special anti-god powers. His write-up says "Since [Asmodeus] was not a god, he was not vulnerable to the worst of Zargon's powers". So presumably he killed the gods using those unspecified anti-god powers. It doesn't explain why the gods didn't send a couple of Solars to facestab him, or why Asmodeus couldn't kill him, but it's something.

[Bohandas]

All the elder evils have special anti-god powers

[Bohandas]

Power levels are CR is bulls**t.

If you need proof, stop into the Immortals Handbook thread.

Or just look at a lowly CR 3 druid NPC (with Greenbound Summoning and Ashbound for feats, and a chronocharm of the uncaring archmage).

Which book is Greenbound Summoning from? It doesn't seem to be in ECS or Faiths of Eberron.

[StevenC21]

Please elaborate on these powers. I don't see anything in the lore or stats for these creatures to indicate that.

[RifleAvenger]

Which book is Greenbound Summoning from? It doesn't seem to be in ECS or Faiths of Eberron.Lost Empires of Faerun.

At the table I play at, I'm used to setting feats being made setting agnostic, since we almost never play established settings to begin with. This leads to setting book splat mishmashes (though, when I played a Greenbound Summoning druid, I actually took Gatekeeper Initiate and Dragon Wildshape alongside Greenbound Summoning and Natural Spell, not Ashbound).

[Cosi]

Please elaborate on these powers. I don't see anything in the lore or stats for these creatures to indicate that.

The powers are completely unspecified fluff. I'm not saying it's a super strong explanation or anything, but it isn't entirely ignored.

[Yogibear41]

Most of the Elder evils have an ability thats stated somewhere near the beginning of the book that more or less says: Deity's powers don't work around this guy.

So no Divine Magic, no SLAs, maybe no DR/Fast Healing/Regeneration.

So depending on the deity you more or less have a high level fighter/expert/rogue etc etc.


EDIT:

Impervious to the Divine: The elder evil is immune to ALL Divine spells (even in item form) and all SLA and SU abilities of extraplanar creatures and deities.


Also the book is about providing several types of challenges to suit the campaign. Zargon might not seem like much to a standard level 20+ Party, but in a specific campaign world where those levels don't really exist and the party is around level 15 he would make a strong challenge.

DR/Epic means your fighter types will be facing an uphill battle. No epic weapons at level 15.

At least 12 attacks with tentacles with +36 to hit is going to connect alot of times on any front line you have and could easily wipe out a level 15 fighter in one round even if he has a high AC, Miss chance and even some form of Damage reduction to sponge.

Spell resistance of 28 isn't to bad if you prepare to get around it. Having to do fire or cold damage might be an issue, especially if Zargon has any help to buff it with resistances to those elements.


If you think about it though any monster in DND is easy to beat if you know what to prepare for. If you pulled Zargon out on an unsuspecting party that didn't know they could go to the book at look it up on page 147, they wouldn't know hey its immune to acid, or hey we need to hit it with fire or cold.
It would be some poor fighter hitting it for next to no damage with his sword, and some mage maybe getting lucky with a few scorching rays, with everything else getting regenerated.

[Mordaedil]

Yeah, but he was supposed to be an epic threat that once controlled the Nine Hells.

A fricking PIT FIEND can smoke this guy, going by CR.

I think you are misunderstanding what CR's represent. They are generally the suggested levels for where they represent an "adequate challenge" for a party of the given value. They are a guideline at best of times and not representative of any monsters given power.

If you want to give your players a hard time, you drop higher CR monsters on the players. I dropped my characters into a CR6 encounter at level 1 before.

It also helps if you look at the monsters abilities in full. A CR 16 monster can still properly whoop a balors butt if it has the right abilities for the job.

Or if you are like me, drop that CR16 monster against a party at level 5. Also look if it can advance as that can give you the monster you want.

[Troacctid]

I can easily see how Zargon would crush powerful devils to his will. He's seriously tough. He has more than twice as many attacks as a pit fiend, with improved grapple on twelve of them (and a grapple mod 13 points higher than the pit fiend's), and the pit fiend can hardly even damage him through his DR 15/epic and regeneration 50. In a contest of brute strength, Zargon wins easily. And even if that weren't the case, who would want to fight him and risk being slimed? Pit fiends resist acid, but they aren't immune, so he has literally a 50/50 chance of polluting them in the first round alone if they try to confront him directly. And once they're corrupted, they have about two weeks on average before they transform into one of his spawn unless they somehow get heal or remove disease, which, if you're in Baator, I mean, good luck. And that's if he hasn't already converted a bunch of lesser minions into an army of whelps, which, of course, he can totally do, and each of those whelps is capable of turning more victims into whelps.

[Yogibear41]

I'd like to see a CR 5 party that could kill Zargon.

To be fair a Pitfiend could lob at will Fireballs at him from range then greater teleport away if he had to.

But that is easily fixed if you give him the Immunity to SLAs mentioned earlier.

[Troacctid]

I'd like to see a CR 5 party that could kill Zargon.

To be fair a Pitfiend could lob at will Fireballs at him from range then greater teleport away if he had to.

But that is easily fixed if you give him the Immunity to SLAs mentioned earlier.
Zargon resists fire and only fails his Reflex save on a natural 1, so I believe you're dealing an average of about 15 damage every 20 rounds? Meanwhile, with his sign active, all the lesser creatures of the plane are being gradually transformed into his minions, and you're getting buffeted by whatever ridiculous storms are currently ongoing.

[StevenC21]

Then let's go back.

If Zargon is so powerful, why is he CR 16?

[hamishspence]

Possibly the theory is that a balanced party of CR16 characters should be able to take him on, and survive, with somewhat depleted resources but no deaths.

[StevenC21]

I think you're being sarcastic. Are you?

Quite frankly though, I don't think that's the case.

He has a decent AC, DR 15/Epic, and Regeneration 50. Most Level 16 PCs can't even damage him. And he has tons of attacks.

[hamishspence]

There's some abilities that allow PCs to ignore damage reduction. Like the Mountain Hammer line of martial maneuvers.

[OgresAreCute]

Then let's go back.

If Zargon is so powerful, why is he CR 16?

Deliberately under-CRed to make him more threatening? That's how it is with Dragons. If you gave him CR 21 DMs would be like "oh so he's a boss encounter for level 17 characters", at which point his "world ending elder evil!!!!" shtick wouldn't really pan out. If you give him CR 16, however, he looks like an appropriate boss encounter for a party of level 12 dudes, and they'll really feel the tension in that fight (unless they're very optimized but WotC can't really base their whole game around that).

[hamishspence]

Maybe it's due to him being basically lifted from Dungeon Magazine? Their 3.5e version of Zargon came out some time before Elder Evils did.

[Mordaedil]

It makes sense if you read page 159. This isn't a fight to kill the monster, it's to send him back.

[Bohandas]

DR/Epic means your fighter types will be facing an uphill battle. No epic weapons at level 15

You just need a +2 Law Bane Evil Bane weapon

[hamishspence]

"effective enhancement bonus" might not qualify as "enhancement bonus" for the purposes of determining whether it counts as an epic weapon or not.

[Mordaedil]

Given that they are same-type bonuses, I'm not sure they even stack.

[Feantar]

Given that they are same-type bonuses, I'm not sure they even stack.

They explicitly do. From the bane description: its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus.

I only looked for this because I expected WotC to be so incompetent as to have forgotten to specify...

[emeraldstreak]

The truth is they meant to name the book Elderly Evils

[Mordaedil]

They explicitly do. From the bane description: its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus.

I only looked for this because I expected WotC to be so incompetent as to have forgotten to specify...

It's normal enhancement bonus is +2. That does not say it stacks. The rule is that same type do not stack. Enhancement bonuses do not stack. It's effectively a +4 blade with respect to lawful and evil creatures. Casting Magic Weapon on Greater Magic Weapon does not result in a +6 weapon either.

[Eldariel]

Most of the Elder evils have an ability thats stated somewhere near the beginning of the book that more or less says: Deity's powers don't work around this guy.

So no Divine Magic, no SLAs, maybe no DR/Fast Healing/Regeneration.

So depending on the deity you more or less have a high level fighter/expert/rogue etc etc.


EDIT:

Impervious to the Divine: The elder evil is immune to ALL Divine spells (even in item form) and all SLA and SU abilities of extraplanar creatures and deities.

Deities have "Alter Reality" so they're at the very least "buffed with every single buff"-fighters of absurd level with infinite underlings at their disposals though. And then all the indirect effects magic can produce; they might not be able to affect the target but they can create perfectly real walls and mountains and such effortlessly.


Also the book is about providing several types of challenges to suit the campaign. Zargon might not seem like much to a standard level 20+ Party, but in a specific campaign world where those levels don't really exist and the party is around level 15 he would make a strong challenge.

DR/Epic means your fighter types will be facing an uphill battle. No epic weapons at level 15.

At least 12 attacks with tentacles with +36 to hit is going to connect alot of times on any front line you have and could easily wipe out a level 15 fighter in one round even if he has a high AC, Miss chance and even some form of Damage reduction to sponge.

Eh, it's only DR 15; anyone with just core stuff can Charge for 100 damage on this point so they're connecting for at least 85 points easily enough. Archers with Greater Magic Weapon can use +1 Evil Outsider Bane arrows to trivially overcome it and those are like to be around in any Archer's inventory by this point. Of course any spellcaster of this level could just plain solo this guy but even warriors should have little trouble if they aren't atrociously built. The trick is just figuring out that he can't do much of note; initially I'd of course be much more careful with him than necessary.

[Bohandas]

The truth is they meant to name the book Elderly Evils

No, that's from Toon's campaign setting "Crawl of Catchooloo" [sic]

[shadows7114]

I having been a DM for only a few years i will put my thoughts on the table as well. so take them as you will.

looking at Zargon i think his CR is way under powered. and here is why(copy pasted stats and info from the book.)

hp 342 (18 HD); regeneration 50; DR 15/epic
Regeneration (Ex) Cold and fire deal normal damage to Zargon. If Zargon loses a limb or body part it grows back in 1 minute. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.
Resist cold 20, fire 20; SR 28
Immune acid, anathematic secrecy (malefic property), disease, poison; elder evil immunities

(unlike most monsters with regeneration he does not take extra damage from fire or acid. so no weakness there to exploit.)

Melee 12 tentacles +36 each (2d6+20 19–20x2)
and gore +34 (3d6+10)
and bite +34 (2d6+10 plus 3d6 acid plus slime)
with a Reach of 15 ft. (30 ft. with tentacles)
Base Atk +18; Grp +46

Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, Zargon must hit an opponent of up to Huge size with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. It receives a +2 bonus on the grapple check for each tentacle that hits. If it wins the grapple check and maintains the hold in the next round, it automatically bites the foe at that time.
(so the fighter moves to attack and gets hit at least 2 times(fighter has plate armor and moves 20 ft per round unless he charges then he moves 40 feet.). i always have the party start combat at 60 feet.)

Constrict (Ex) Zargon deals 2d6+20 points of damage with a successful grapple check, in addition to damage from its tentacle attack.
(with this i don't know of any level 20 fighters that could best Zargon in a grapple. as most fighters may have a +30 grapple modifier(+10 str Mod +20 BAB) if they are lucky and built that way. that means that if i roll a 2 to beat the grapple the fighter has to roll a 19 or better to not get grappled. and i don't know of many fighters with 365 health(average damage of all attacks combined))

here is the really killer part:smallfrown:

Divine Enervation (Su) All divine spellcasters(cleric, druid, paladin, favored soul, etc) lose the ability to regain spells so long as they remain within 100 miles of Zargon. This interdiction does not interfere with spellcasting.

(if you use the standard of about 40 miles of travel per day(30 ft per round 300ft per minute 18,000ft per hour and travel for 12 hours a day) then they will have to travel at minimum of 2 1/2 days to reach Zargon. throw any type of fight their way where the healer has to heal and well... no healing spells when you go up against Zargon.)

and then on top of it :smalleek:

Horn (Ex) Zargon’s horn grants him regeneration 50 and a +6 resistance bonus on saving throws. Removing the horn requires a touch attack followed by a DC 39 Strength check, and doing so makes Zargon lose its benefits. The horn “regrows” Zargon(he comes back to fight the party again) after 1d4 days. The horn is destroyed if it is dropped into the Eye of Zargon, far(day or 2 to travel far? up to the DM) below in the lost city, within "ONE DAY1" of Zargon’s death.
(1. emphasise added)

(if you are a DM like me then the "lost city" will be a dungeon to fight through to get to "the eye". at which point most parties IF they survived are going to rest for a day then go fight the dungeon or head back to town if they didn't find the info about the horn. because how cool would it be to have the horn of an elder evil hung up in your house. so now 4 days from the lost city you get to fight him again and again and again, etc. this "weak boss" is a monster that you could end up fighting several times just trying to get it to "the eye" to kill him. now how many parties are going to survive the first time vs multiple fights of this guy? in the 1st battle you lost the wizard. 2nd battle you lose the rogue. 3rd battle the party is dead.)

so in my opinion i wouldn't send this guy after a party of 4 until they were at least level 20 or higher. i would probably not even send this against a party of 6 that aren't level 20+

[Ashtagon]

I having been a DM for only a few years i will put my thoughts on the table as well. so take them as you will.

looking at Zargon i think his CR is way under powered. and here is why(copy pasted stats and info from the book.)

so in my opinion i wouldn't send this guy after a party of 4 until they were at least level 20 or higher. i would probably not even send this against a party of 6 that aren't level 20+

Do you mean why are they so weak, or why are they so strong? Because your mini-essay contradicts your headline. If you mean why is the CR out of all proportion to the actual challenge he represents, well, 3.5 isn't exactly famous for its game balance.

Plus, the Book of Old Bad Guys book was written specifically to end campaigns, not to give an ongoing challenge.

[Eldariel]

I having been a DM for only a few years i will put my thoughts on the table as well. so take them as you will.

looking at Zargon i think his CR is way under powered. and here is why(copy pasted stats and info from the book.)

hp 342 (18 HD); regeneration 50; DR 15/epic
Regeneration (Ex) Cold and fire deal normal damage to Zargon. If Zargon loses a limb or body part it grows back in 1 minute. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.
Resist cold 20, fire 20; SR 28
Immune acid, anathematic secrecy (malefic property), disease, poison; elder evil immunities

(unlike most monsters with regeneration he does not take extra damage from fire or acid. so no weakness there to exploit.)

Melee 12 tentacles +36 each (2d6+20 19–20x2)
and gore +34 (3d6+10)
and bite +34 (2d6+10 plus 3d6 acid plus slime)
with a Reach of 15 ft. (30 ft. with tentacles)
Base Atk +18; Grp +46

Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, Zargon must hit an opponent of up to Huge size with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. It receives a +2 bonus on the grapple check for each tentacle that hits. If it wins the grapple check and maintains the hold in the next round, it automatically bites the foe at that time.
(so the fighter moves to attack and gets hit at least 2 times(fighter has plate armor and moves 20 ft per round unless he charges then he moves 40 feet.). i always have the party start combat at 60 feet.)

Constrict (Ex) Zargon deals 2d6+20 points of damage with a successful grapple check, in addition to damage from its tentacle attack.
(with this i don't know of any level 20 fighters that could best Zargon in a grapple. as most fighters may have a +30 grapple modifier(+10 str Mod +20 BAB) if they are lucky and built that way. that means that if i roll a 2 to beat the grapple the fighter has to roll a 19 or better to not get grappled. and i don't know of many fighters with 365 health(average damage of all attacks combined))

Freedom of Movement means none of his **** does anything. It lasts 10 mins per level and is a 4th level spell on a level where people are slinging around 9th level spells. It's up on the whole party. So, in short, his abilities are useless.

Fighters should be Enlarged at least regardless too, but that doesn't even matter. Standard level 20 Barbarian can easily have 18 Str + 4 Racial (Orc) + 5 level + 5 inherent (Tome) + 6 item = 38 for +14. 40 with permanencied Enlarge Person or way more with permanent Polymorph Any Object from a friendly caster. But even without that, 40 Str for +15 and Large for +4 and 20 BAB for +39. Then he rages for +43. It's almost an even match. If the Barbarian were Polymorphed into anything decent, he'd walk all over Zargon. Hell, if he had Improved Grapple feat, he could match him. And this is from a basic level 20 Barbarian. A level 20 Cleric with Giant Size and Miracle for Draconic Polymorph into a War Troll would be looking at 31 + 8 (Draconic Polymorph) + 32 Giant Size Str for 71 (+30) and Divine Power for 20 BAB and +6 more Str for 20 BAB + 33 Str + 16 Size = +69 Grapple, positively clowning Zargon (Zargon can't win Grapple even on 20-1 difference). Zargon can try to cast Freedom of Movement but the Cleric can just have an Antimagic Field active to positively clown Zargon. And yeah, the Cleric can't recover spells with Zargon around, which is why I'd assume he's going to obliterate Zargon to the degree no trace of him or his truename ever existed. FWIW, level 17 Cleric would be just as able to clown him if he wanted to. Around level 11, Cleric has the tools to beat him rather easily.


here is the really killer part:smallfrown:

Divine Enervation (Su) All divine spellcasters(cleric, druid, paladin, favored soul, etc) lose the ability to regain spells so long as they remain within 100 miles of Zargon. This interdiction does not interfere with spellcasting.

(if you use the standard of about 40 miles of travel per day(30 ft per round 300ft per minute 18,000ft per hour and travel for 12 hours a day) then they will have to travel at minimum of 2 1/2 days to reach Zargon. throw any type of fight their way where the healer has to heal and well... no healing spells when you go up against Zargon.)

Or they can just cast Teleport and travel 2000+ miles in 6 seconds. Or Plane Shift to another plane. Both are 5th level spells. They can also just acquire fast healing or Wands of Cure Light Wounds to heal up if they end up fighting something so they don't need to waste valuable spell slots on that. Really, spending healing spells


and then on top of it :smalleek:

Horn (Ex) Zargon’s horn grants him regeneration 50 and a +6 resistance bonus on saving throws. Removing the horn requires a touch attack followed by a DC 39 Strength check, and doing so makes Zargon lose its benefits. The horn “regrows” Zargon(he comes back to fight the party again) after 1d4 days. The horn is destroyed if it is dropped into the Eye of Zargon, far(day or 2 to travel far? up to the DM) below in the lost city, within "ONE DAY1" of Zargon’s death.
(1. emphasise added)

(if you are a DM like me then the "lost city" will be a dungeon to fight through to get to "the eye". at which point most parties IF they survived are going to rest for a day then go fight the dungeon or head back to town if they didn't find the info about the horn. because how cool would it be to have the horn of an elder evil hung up in your house. so now 4 days from the lost city you get to fight him again and again and again, etc. this "weak boss" is a monster that you could end up fighting several times just trying to get it to "the eye" to kill him. now how many parties are going to survive the first time vs multiple fights of this guy? in the 1st battle you lost the wizard. 2nd battle you lose the rogue. 3rd battle the party is dead.)

Any single level 20 character should be able to totally clown him. It doesn't take a party. A party of 4 level 14 characters might be remotely interesting except Zargon's main shtick isn't really relevant after level 7 (he has no Dispel and grappling just doesn't work once Freedom of Movement becomes available). Even Divine Enervation is a level 9 threat since that's when Teleport and Plane Shift become available. And it does nothing to prepared spells nor to arcane spellcasters. Note, you don't really need to destroy the horn. All you need to do is keep the Horn and realize it's regrowing Zargon. Then you just do something about it. Pop it into Quintessence to infinitely freeze him in time, leave him in a demiplane with no exit (he has no Plane Shift abilities), Sequester him after pummeling him unconscious, Unname him, have a Soul Eater eat him, or whatever. He's actually a pretty baller Magic Jar body to wear. Just be sure to dispose of his soul once you go through with it; he has the Will-save to make Magic Jar take effort (and he's immune to the easiest debuffs in the game but not to natural 1s).

If one of your dudes dies, just cast Revivify/True Resurrection/whatever and bring them back. This is a level where death has little repercussions. Costs a pittance of gold.

Honestly, while Zargon isn't very scary he still has 50 Str and a lot of attacks so he can do decent damage. He's kinda like a level 20 Barbarian - good at what he does but in the wrong ballgame with none of the tools needed to compete on this level. As an added weakness compared to a Barbarian, if you never let him get full attack off, he does less than nothing. 2d6+20 at +36 is a pretty pathetic turn for a level 18 creature. Alternatively, even if you let him get full attacks off, you can just sufficiently pump your AC or other defenses (Starmantle + DR would make you pretty resistant to his pummeling) or cast Trollform or Shapechange/Polymorph/whatever to acquire Regeneration (and thus being immune to his **** since he can't penetrate any meaningful DR to save his life) or Delay Death/Hide Life to ignore his damage and kill him. Revivify yourself after Delay Death wears off.

[Anthrowhale]

It seems you could create a Zargon-alike PC.

Start with an Amphibious Anthropomorphic Giant Squid going into a persistomancer archivist/Sacred Exorcist/Geomancer. You'd have a Strength of 54 = 18+8(Anthrosquid)+16(enhance, bite of the werebear)+8(size, Righteous Might)+4(morale, Aura of Vitality). As an Anthro giant squid, you would have 8 tentacle attacks (with reach) and 2 arms. Add on Girallon's blessing + Arms of Plenty to make up for the missing tentacles. Add Gore/Bite attacks via Geomancer. At this point, you have a similar attack natural attack profile to Zargon. Adding in various spells for immunity to energy / damage, and to further enhance Zargonity.

[Zecrin]

Around level 11, Cleric has the tools to beat him rather easily.

While I agree with the crux of your argument that highly optimized characters can surmount challenges well above their ECL, I do have to nitpick a little bit here. First off, keep in mind that that an 11th level cleric and his or her party is close to the level where they may actually be expected to fight Zargon, especially if we're talking about a party of optimized PCs. But I believe that you're just talking about a single 11th level cleric here. Because learning anything about Zargon requires a fairly difficult knowledge check, the chances that the cleric actually knows about Zargon's regeneration/magical horn/ or any of his abilities at all are slim. Second, Zargon, with an intelligence score of 21, spellcraft modifier of +28, and knowledge (religion) +26, almost assuredly is not only smarter than an 11th level cleric, but also more knowledgeable about divine magic. This is important because Zargon is not some 20th level barbarian; in a fight, he's not stupid enough to attempt to grapple a fully spelled up cleric because he's aware that freedom of movement is a thing. Also, remember that according to Elder Evils, Zargon is served loyally by someone who casts as a level 10 archivist. Between Vanessa, Zargon's SR 28, Regeneration 50, +36 to hit, superb saving throws, and inability to be easily destroyed without things like quintessence, I really don't think that an 11th level cleric could easily beat him. Although, again, if highly optimized, I'm sure that just like any character of any class, they could defeat any creature with a statblock printed by WotC.

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. knowledge asymmetry, a cleric has access to Divine Insight (+8 to +15 (insight)), Guidance of the Avatar (+20 (Competence)), and potentially Improvisation (+caster level/2 (luck)) via Anyspell. Using these, they are very good at making a small number of difficult skill checks.

[Bohandas]

It's normal enhancement bonus is +2. That does not say it stacks. The rule is that same type do not stack. Enhancement bonuses do not stack. It's effectively a +4 blade with respect to lawful and evil creatures. Casting Magic Weapon on Greater Magic Weapon does not result in a +6 weapon either.

Normally a +2 evil bane weapon would strike as a +4 weapon against an evil creature, but since it's also law bane... +6

In any case it's a moot point, since for an extra +1 you can do the same trick to bypass epic DR with a +4 evil bane weapon, which is still only the same price and availability as a +5 weapon

[Zecrin]

W.r.t. knowledge asymmetry, a cleric has access to Divine Insight (+8 to +15 (insight)), Guidance of the Avatar (+20 (Competence)), and potentially Improvisation (+caster level/2 (luck)) via Anyspell. Using these, they are very good at making a small number of difficult skill checks.

Well, while that is technically correct, most clerics don't cast all these spells before they make every knowledge check. When you first hear the name Zargon pretty early in the Zargon-centric Campaign, you likely ask the DM "what do I know about Zargon"? You make your knowledge check, know very little, and then can't try again. I suppose you might consider casting divine insight, guidance of the avatar, and improvisation if you knew that you were coming toe to toe with an elder evil. But before you make the check, you may not know that Zargon is more than a standard villain.

But the thing is, even if you did make the knowledge check and received all the information such a check should offer according to Elder Evils, you still know very little about Zargon. Aside from the fact that:
A. The Horn is Indestructible
B. Zargon can heal wounds faster than they can be inflicted
C. The Horn can regrow the body.

While this information is valuable it does not achieve quite the same effect as looking at Zargon's stat block and saying "Well, If I cast this, this, and this, then Zargon can't possibly defeat me."

But generally speaking, it is true that few (if any) make better knowledge checks than a prepared cleric.

[Anthrowhale]

Well, while that is technically correct, most clerics don't cast all these spells before they make every knowledge check.
The spells may not be deployed on first mention of Zargon, but I would expect they are deployed before encountering Zargon. A good cleric plausibly tries to deploy serious information gathering efforts before plausible boss fights.

Looking through elder evils, the most difficult knowledge DC for Zargon is 55, so +15(insight)+20(competence) is getting you in the ballpark, although not guaranteeing success.

It looks like you can also infer that Zargon can shut down divine power and likes slime. Slime + divine power shutdown + kills gods + unstoppable regeneration + asmodeus can't kill + regrows tells you enough to start sketching out a battle plan.

I'm not sure what Eldariel's L11 cleric plan is, but an Initiate of Mystra with AMF and Freedom of Movement is basically resistant to everything except melee damage and could potentially use something like Poison Spell[Trollbane] Harm + Sense Weakness + Surge of Fortune to take a giant bite out of his hitpoints.

[Zecrin]

The spells may not be deployed on first mention of Zargon.

But the problem is, once you hear the name Zargon and make a knowledge check to identify him (and then fail) there's no way to try that check again no matter how high you boost your bonus to knowledge later (or at least not to my knowledge).


Initiate of Mystra with AMF
First Initiate of Mystara is explicitly campaign specific. However it is a feat that can be taken by an 11th level cleric, so let's talk about this scenario. First you cast antimagic field. Now all your spells have have about a 50% chance of failure. Next you go to touch with Poison Spell[Trollbane] Harm + Sense Weakness + Surge of Fortune. For the clerics benefit, we'll let him start right next to Zargon so that he doesn't have to deal with the elder evil's 30 ft. reach.

So now he has an 10/20 chance of overcoming antimagic and a 4/20 chance of overcoming Zargon's spell resistance. In other words you have a 10% chance of hitting Zargon with harm. However, you can use your surge of fortune to increase this to a 50-50 at the expense of a critical hit. If you take this route you have a 50% chance to deal 55 damage to Zargon. If you do not, you have a 10% chance to deal 110 damage to Zargon.

Now remember Zargon has 342 hp. But at this point it doesn't matter; he is already healing faster than you can damage him with his extraordinary regeneration 50 and this is when you're expending your highest level spellslot.

Now you did talk about a poisoned spell with trollbane. First off this constitutes a 7th level spell, but you're probably using divine metamagic. Second though, Zargon is immune to poison. However, there's no way that a cleric could know this so I see why they'd try.

So you cast your harm and do nothing to Zargon. Now it's his turn. You are an 11th level cleric in an AMF vs Zargon the Returner. Zargon is going to full attack and hit you with every attack. If the cleric has an 18 con then their hp is 8+5*10+4*11 (102). Zargon kills you with 4 tentacle attacks each doing 27 damage on average. He does not have to resort to his other 8 tentacle attacks, or his gore attack, or his bite attack.

Now this was some fun theory crafting, and I have no doubt that you could come up with some strategy for a level 11 cleric to solo Zargon. You could probably do the same for a 1st level commoner. But my point is this: I think saying that "an 11th level cleric has the tools to beat Zargon easily" may be a little disingenuous especially when this is used as a contention in a thread whose thesis is "Zargon is so weak."

[Anthrowhale]

But the problem is, once you hear the name Zargon and make a knowledge check to identify him (and then fail) there's no way to try that check again no matter how high you boost your bonus to knowledge later (or at least not to my knowledge).

a) I would not play with a DM that rules a failed knowledge check at level 1 implies you can't make the same knowledge check at level 11.
b) Usually there are variations on the original knowledge check which have not been explicitly failed.


First Initiate of Mystara is explicitly campaign specific. However it is a feat that can be taken by an 11th level cleric, so let's talk about this scenario. First you cast antimagic field. Now all your spells have have about a 50% chance of failure.

Typically, you avoid failure by taking Arcane Mastery. If you read carefully, you'll see that this doesn't quite work at level 11, but it certainly does at 12. By level 12 of course you could be rocking caster level 40 as a Hathran making it completely unnecessary.


Next you go to touch with Poison Spell[Trollbane] Harm + Sense Weakness + Surge of Fortune. For the clerics benefit, we'll let him start right next to Zargon so that he doesn't have to deal with the elder evil's 30 ft. reach.

So now he has an 10/20 chance of overcoming antimagic and a 4/20 chance of overcoming Zargon's spell resistance. In other words you have a 10% chance of hitting Zargon with harm. However, you can use your surge of fortune to increase this to a 50-50 at the expense of a critical hit. If you take this route you have a 50% chance to deal 55 damage to Zargon. If you do not, you have a 10% chance to deal 110 damage to Zargon.

Now remember Zargon has 342 hp. But at this point it doesn't matter; he is already healing faster than you can damage him with his extraordinary regeneration 50 and this is when you're expending your highest level spellslot.

Now you did talk about a poisoned spell with trollbane. First off this constitutes a 7th level spell, but you're probably using divine metamagic. Second though, Zargon is immune to poison. However, there's no way that a cleric could know this so I see why they'd try.

So you cast your harm and do nothing to Zargon. Now it's his turn. You are an 11th level cleric in an AMF vs Zargon the Returner. Zargon is going to full attack and hit you with every attack. If the cleric has an 18 con then their hp is 8+5*10+4*11 (102). Zargon kills you with 4 tentacle attacks each doing 27 damage on average. He does not have to resort to his other 8 tentacle attacks, or his gore attack, or his bite attack.

Now this was some fun theory crafting, and I have no doubt that you could come up with some strategy for a level 11 cleric to solo Zargon. You could probably do the same for a 1st level commoner. But my point is this: I think saying that "an 11th level cleric has the tools to beat Zargon easily" may be a little disingenuous especially when this is used as a contention in a thread whose thesis is "Zargon is so weak."
You misunderstanding some things. For example, Poison Spell is not metamagic. However, I don't fully see how to do it at level 11 myself.

By level 12 though..., Consider an Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Divine Oracle 2/Hathran 5 who casts all spells (except AMF) at caster level 40 via circle magic inside of an Antimagic Field. Note that you can qualify for Initiate of Mystra as per Dragon Magic(?) since Hathran advances access to cleric spells and requires a deity.

For defensive preparations consider Draconic Polymorph [War Troll] (Natural Armor+14, Size-1) G. Luminous Armor (+8 armor) Dex(+3), Shield(+2), Magic Vestment x2 (+5 shield, +5 armor), Armor of Darkness (+8 deflect), Natural Armor Enhance +5 (Barkskin or similar) giving you an AC of 59 or effectively 63 when you take Luminous into account. That's probably overkill, but the point is that you are effectively immune to all of Zargon's attacks.

[Eldariel]

By level 11, you can just hit him for enough damage to put him to coma until the end of the world (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314454-3-5-Cleric-Charger). No need to even overcome his regeneration (though feel free to kill him if you feel so inclined). A Fighter/Barbarian/whatever could also do enough of course but casters do it better (as always). Really, less than what I went for there is enough: you certainly don't need Battle Jump or such there; just DMM: Persist setup is enough to martially maul Zargon ('cause he can't dispel magic).

[Zecrin]

I would not play with a DM that rules a failed knowledge check at level 1 implies you can't make the same knowledge check at level 11.

I agree with you 100% here. However I think that this is the RAW for the knowledge skill so it's relevant to these purely hypothetical discussions.


You misunderstanding some things. For example, Poison Spell is not metamagic.

My mistake. But in my defense it really follows the formula for how WotC names their metamagic feats. Although, either way, it doesn't matter; you can't poison Zargon.


By level 12 though..., Consider an Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Divine Oracle 2/Hathran 5 who casts all spells (except AMF) at caster level 40 via circle magic inside of an Antimagic Field. Note that you can qualify for Initiate of Mystra as per Dragon Magic(?) since Hathran advances access to cleric spells and requires a deity.

For defensive preparations consider Draconic Polymorph [War Troll] (Natural Armor+14, Size-1) G. Luminous Armor (+8 armor) Dex(+3), Shield(+2), Magic Vestment x2 (+5 shield, +5 armor), Armor of Darkness (+8 deflect), Natural Armor Enhance +5 (Barkskin or similar) giving you an AC of 59 or effectively 63 when you take Luminous into account. That's probably overkill, but the point is that you are effectively immune to all of Zargon's attacks.

Aha! But then Zargon, being an intelligent Elder Evil, goes and purchases a candle of invocation using his aloted treasure, at which point he chain gates in an army of Solars to destroy you!

My point here has been threefold:
A. An 11th level cleric cannot easily defeat Zargon the Returner
B. An optimized character can defeat any stated creature printed in a WotC book.
C. Regardless of B, Zargon the returner is not a monster, especially when compared to other challenges in other books, that can be classified as "so weak."

By resorting to an "Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Divine Oracle 2/Hathran 5 who casts all spells (except AMF) at caster level 40 via circle magic inside of an Antimagic Field with an AC of 63" you have, in fact proved all three of my points simultaneously.

[Anthrowhale]

Aha! But then Zargon, being an intelligent Elder Evil, goes and purchases a candle of invocation using his aloted treasure, at which point he chain gates in an army of Solars to
destroy you!

Yeah, not an interesting solution.


A. An 11th level cleric cannot easily defeat Zargon the Returner

A Cleric 6/Hathran 5 might be able to though.


B. An optimized character can defeat any stated creature printed in a WotC book.

If you are resorting to a candle of invocation, then sure. Otherwise, level does matter.


C. Regardless of B, Zargon the returner is not a monster, especially when compared to other challenges in other books, that can be classified as "so weak."

Comparing to a Planetar (also CR16), Zargon is a melee brute that lacks any serious strategic capabilities (maneuverability, information gathering, or attack). An evil level 7 cleric could seriously threaten Zargon by kidnapping a worshipper and then repeatedly casting Violated Love's Pain on it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I feel that "if I splat dive for enough poorly or oddly written things this fight is easy" is not good evidence the fight is easy, only that poorly or oddly written things exist.

Eldariel has the long and short of it: 1) if you have the ability to overcome regen 50 odds are you will do so be a solid margin. Very few parties see their per round damage sit at 60ish at that level. The regen being so high may give him an extra turn of action but; 2) grappling is an extremely dangerous strategy that involves a numbers game that is difficult for players to win so odds are they will give with tools so they don't have to play in the first place; Freedom of Movement, Swift/Immediate teleportation, etc.

[Eldariel]

If we think about whether he's CRd properly system-internally, core CR 16 monsters give a useful base level. Or would, if they were consistently CRd, but c'est la vie. I'll give it a go here:

MM1 contains the following CR16 monsters:
Horned Devil
Planetar
Nightwalker
Hound Archon Hero
Greater Stone Golem
Old Black Dragon
Mature Adult Green Dragon
Mature Adult Blue Dragon
Mature Adult Copper Dragon
Adult Gold Dragon

So let's go through those one by one:
Cornugon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#hornedDevilCornugon): Compared to Zargon, Cornugon has absolutely pitiful combat stats. As a caster, it's got few really nasty tricks. At Will Persistent Image is very good and the standard Outsider Greater Teleport at Will is absolutely amazing. The ability to summon a second Cornugon even at 20% rate is also pretty nice. Basically though, anything Cornugon could hurt, Zargon could annihilate. However, getting to the hurting position is much easier for a Cornugon and it has better options for fighting fights that don't involve bashing things in the head (hell, Spiked Chain is more than viable as a pure AoO weapon with no intent of ever taking the attack action). Zargon could obviously dish out a dozen times the punishment two Cornugons could (and take, for that matter). Cornugons can fly, teleport, summon another Cornugon/some Barbed Devils (wait until they succeed to attack), make liberal use of Persistent Images at longer ranges (thus rendering True Seeing ineffective), etc. This makes Cornugon the more annoying and fearsome enemy of the two overall but if you have to go to it and knock it out, Zargon is probably harder if only due to its baby-Tarrasque like traits. These two are fairly even, actually. Fairly equal (assuming Zargon's lack of flight doesn't make him a total non-factor).

Planetar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar): Okay, this guy casts as a 17th level Cleric meaning access to the whole Cleric and large parts of the Druid and Wizard list as well. That's about the long and the short of it: 9th level spellcasting positively clowns anything Zargon can do. This isn't even remotely a contest; be it mobility, information gathering, combat power, minionmancy or anything, Planetar wins no contest. Planetar wins.

Nightwalker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightwalker): One of these guys has really strong incorporeal summons that it further buffs (when combined with GDM, these guys can be a threat to very high level characters if CL inflation is not taking place - it casts at CL21 too so it's CL20 GDM vs. level 12 party), Greater Dispel Magic, Plane Shift, and some utility. That is not Zargon. While not amazing, Nightwalker can certainly pull 3 times the tricks Zargon can. Its raw numbers are actually rather irrelevant, since its power lies everywhere else. In terms of information gathering, neither is very strong but at least incorporeal scouts are pretty solid and Nightwalker has access to a bunch of Shadows/Greater Shadows (when combined with GDM, these guys can be a threat to very high level characters if CL inflation is not taking place - it casts at CL21 too so it's CL20 GDM vs. level 12) or some Dread Wraiths. OTOH Zargon does have 500' Blindsight and True Seeing. Still, considering Nightwalker can actually threaten many high level characters and has the extremely pesky "crush your stuff"-ability, I definitely consider it the more dangerous of the two. Nightwalker wins.

Hound Archon Hero (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#houndArchon): On the surface, these guys are losers. They only cast as 2nd level Paladins (non-Hound Archon Pally 16 would cast 4th level spells), they have pretty poor stats, their racial abilities are largely useless at this point (turning into a Dire Wolf isn't amazing when your default form has 4 attacks and all that and Aura of Menace, in addition to being a fear effect, basically lacks CD scaling because apparently class HP doesn't count for it in this case) and overall they are just diet versions of an already mediocre class. However, they have two pretty huge things going on for them: Juvenile Bronze Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#bronzeDragon) with some minor buffs, and Leadership. Now, you could argue that the Leadership is intended to be taken for the Dragon but it just so happens their Mount class feature in the listing of their Paladin abilities says this: "special mount (juvenile bronze dragon)". Which means the Dragon is their Paladin Mount (a special paragraph for them makes this exception possible) and they should also have a Leadership cohort. The Dragon isn't really all that; the DC21 Repulsion effect is mind-affecting, their base breath damage is pretty meh, they only cast as 3rd level Sorcs and their martial abilities are...well, only slightly better than those of the Paladin. It's still a pretty decent ball of stats with extreme mobility though and should not be taken lightly. Combined with decent Pally spells for the Hound Archon Hero and it can do something. However, even those two combined wouldn't be strong enough to really be a threat on this level but add to that a Leadership cohort (up to a 15th level character) and it might be different. A Cleric 15 for instance suddenly makes for a whole different ballgame. Thus this one is really hard to analyse since the whole Leadership is completely up in the air with no details in the character entry. Without it, Zargon is much more scary simply because classed monsters generally suck bad - there's little synergy between the class abilities and the base chassis meaning the chassis just leads to CR inflation (and Pally isn't an amazing class to start with). Zargon wins without Leadership, Hound Archon Hero with a strong Cohort.

Greater Stone Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#stoneGolem): This time the numbers are actually in the Golem's favour. Of course, that means Zargon wins hands down in the utility and casting department. Honestly, this isn't much of a contest and Greater Stone Golem is kind of a stinker of a CR 16. Sure, DC 31 save-or-Slow is annoying but it's slow, has no movement modes, poor AC, no regenerative abilities of any sort, etc. etc. etc. There are just hundreds of reasons for why Golems as such are not very scary. Silent Image generally suffices to shut one down. Hell, even in a straight-up brawl, Zargon would beat it due to having so many more attacks. Zargon wins.

Then there are the Dragons... Old Black, Mature Adult Blue, Mature Adult Green and Adult Gold all cast as 7th level Sorcerers out of the box. They have access to a lot of feats that make their stuff better and they're extremely mobile with multiple movement types, have Blood Wind, are similar balls of stat to Zargon (slightly weaker across the board but still decent), potentially very powerful breath weapons (with their feats) and yeah. They have much the same problem as Zargon: they lack easy means to deal with level-appropriate magic. Sorry but CL10 Dispel Magic (with Practiced Spellcaster) isn't gonna cut it (though it's better than nothing). Even Loredrake wouldn't do much. Their big advantage though is their mobility; they can have some basic teleportation magic, they fly at a ridiculous speed, they all have other movement speeds as well and their magic enhances their ball of statness. These are tough to call though ultimately I generally fear Dragons more just for the intelligence, information gathering, treasure and general dragonness. Honestly, the fact that Dragons have their feats, spell slots, etc. open is a huge advantage for them as they can pick stuff that actually makes them scary. Slight edge to the Dragons probably (very build and encounter/area dependent).

Mature Adult Copper casts as a 9th level Sorcerer (11th level with Loredrake or 5th level spells with Spellhoarding), which makes it slightly more scary than the others. It still doesn't get the key 5th level spells though (let alone the 6ths for Greater Dispel Magic) making it suffer the same weaknesses and have the same stuff to deal with as the other Dragons and Zargon. Still, an extra level of spells generally would push it ahead of the pack in my books even though we're talking relatively low level casting here. Slight edge to the Dragon (but as above).


Ultimately, I'd say Zargon is on the weaker side of CR 16s (lack of flight, teleportation, plane shifting and such is really the biggest of his problems) though it's fairly on par with Cornugon. Mobility makes Dragons and Cornugon ultimately more dangerous in my books though, even though they share much of the issues Zargon has with high powered PCs. It's only weaker by a lot compared to the Planetar and Nightwalker. The only one it clearly beats is Greater Stone Golem (which honestly has no business being CR 16). I think it's probably the wisest to ignore Hound Archon Hero since leveled monsters are generally dysfunctional and that statblock is particularly weird with all the strange stuff regarding the mount and Leadership.

[Starbuck_II]

Yeah, not an interesting solution.

A Cleric 6/Hathran 5 might be able to though.

If you are resorting to a candle of invocation, then sure. Otherwise, level does matter.

Comparing to a Planetar (also CR16), Zargon is a melee brute that lacks any serious strategic capabilities (maneuverability, information gathering, or attack). An evil level 7 cleric could seriously threaten Zargon by kidnapping a worshipper and then repeatedly casting Violated Love's Pain on it.

He is immune to divine spells, how does this help?

Same for above mentioned Planetar or even Solar, Divine spells casting...

[ExLibrisMortis]

He is immune to divine spells, how does this help?
He's not. Divine spellcasters can't regain spells within 100 miles of Zargon, and he's immune to divine divination spell effects, but otherwise, a cleric can affect Zargon just fine.

[Blackhawk748]

He's not. Divine spellcasters can't regain spells within 100 miles of Zargon, and he's immune to divine divination spell effects, but otherwise, a cleric can affect Zargon just fine.

Which means that a Planetar or a Solar may have trouble finding him. Once that happens, they certainly have the edge, but I would assume that Zargon is smart enough to fight in a cavern that favors him, so probably something with a restrictively low ceiling and only two ways in or out.

There's certainly ways to trivialize him, but we can all build to specifically kill any one thing. The question is, is that a build someone is likely to play?

[Zecrin]

So let's go through those one by one:

Compared to Zargon, Cornugon has absolutely pitiful combat stats. As a caster, it's got few really nasty tricks. At Will Persistent Image is very good and the standard Outsider Greater Teleport at Will is absolutely amazing. The ability to summon a second Cornugon even at 20% rate is also pretty nice. Basically though, anything Cornugon could hurt, Zargon could annihilate. However, getting to the hurting position is much easier for a Cornugon and it has better options for fighting fights that don't involve bashing things in the head (hell, Spiked Chain is more than viable as a pure AoO weapon with no intent of ever taking the attack action). Zargon could obviously dish out a dozen times the punishment two Cornugons could (and take, for that matter). Cornugons can fly, teleport, summon another Cornugon/some Barbed Devils (wait until they succeed to attack), make liberal use of Persistent Images at longer ranges (thus rendering True Seeing ineffective), etc. This makes Cornugon the more annoying and fearsome enemy of the two overall but if you have to go to it and knock it out, Zargon is probably harder if only due to its baby-Tarrasque like traits. These two are fairly even, actually. Fairly equal (assuming Zargon's lack of flight doesn't make him a total non-factor).

I don’t think that I agree. Zargon doesn’t have to get into a hurting position because of his sign. In other words, players have to come to him which isn’t going to be an easy feat because of anathematic secrecy and nondetection. Zargon can wait in a 40 ft. by 40 ft. underwater room until the end of the world, a luxury that a Cornugon can’t afford. As you point out, the Cornugon’s stats are across the board inferior to Zargon’s and I don’t think that Zargon is foolish enough to fight a party in a place where flying is a thing. I think that Zargon is the plain winner here.


Planetar: Okay, this guy casts as a 17th level Cleric meaning access to the whole Cleric and large parts of the Druid and Wizard list as well. That's about the long and the short of it: 9th level spellcasting positively clowns anything Zargon can do. This isn't even remotely a contest; be it mobility, information gathering, combat power, minionmancy or anything, Planetar wins no contest. Planetar wins.

Yes, I agree. The planetar, especially when played optimally, is a fearsome 16th level threat and definitely more powerful when taken at face value than Zargon.


Nightwalker: One of these guys has really strong incorporeal summons that it further buffs (when combined with GDM, these guys can be a threat to very high level characters if CL inflation is not taking place - it casts at CL21 too so it's CL20 GDM vs. level 12 party), Greater Dispel Magic, Plane Shift, and some utility. That is not Zargon. While not amazing, Nightwalker can certainly pull 3 times the tricks Zargon can. Its raw numbers are actually rather irrelevant, since its power lies everywhere else. In terms of information gathering, neither is very strong but at least incorporeal scouts are pretty solid and Nightwalker has access to a bunch of Shadows/Greater Shadows (when combined with GDM, these guys can be a threat to very high level characters if CL inflation is not taking place - it casts at CL21 too so it's CL20 GDM vs. level 12) or some Dread Wraiths. OTOH Zargon does have 500' Blindsight and True Seeing. Still, considering Nightwalker can actually threaten many high level characters and has the extremely pesky "crush your stuff"-ability, I definitely consider it the more dangerous of the two. Nightwalker wins.

I really think that you’re overselling the nightwalker. You can banish it, you can wear a shirt of wraithstalking, you can buy a spellblade of greater dispel magic, you can have a polymorphed barbarian with a truedeath crystal, you can telekinesis a bucket of sacred marbles. You could kite it around with celestial brilliance. You could have a maneuver user with a good action economy attack it with a disrupting weapon. As you pointed out, the nightwalker has poor information gathering skills, and if the party finds the nightwalker first, the nightwalker is not going to get the chance to summon anything, eliminating one of its main shticks.


Then there are the Dragons... Old Black, Mature Adult Blue, Mature Adult Green and Adult Gold all cast as 7th level Sorcerers out of the box. They have access to a lot of feats that make their stuff better and they're extremely mobile with multiple movement types, have Blood Wind, are similar balls of stat to Zargon (slightly weaker across the board but still decent), potentially very powerful breath weapons (with their feats) and yeah. They have much the same problem as Zargon: they lack easy means to deal with level-appropriate magic. Sorry but CL10 Dispel Magic (with Practiced Spellcaster) isn't gonna cut it (though it's better than nothing). Even Loredrake wouldn't do much. Their big advantage though is their mobility; they can have some basic teleportation magic, they fly at a ridiculous speed, they all have other movement speeds as well and their magic enhances their ball of statness. These are tough to call though ultimately I generally fear Dragons more just for the intelligence, information gathering, treasure and general dragonness. Honestly, the fact that Dragons have their feats, spell slots, etc. open is a huge advantage for them as they can pick stuff that actually makes them scary. Slight edge to the Dragons probably (very build and encounter/area dependent).

Zargon deals with spellcasters better than these dragons by virtue of his immunities. You’re not hitting Zargon with that maximized shivering touch. Dragons are intelligent. But Zargon is more intelligent than any of these dragons. Dragons may have information gathering, but their blindsense 60 ft. is inferior to Zargon’s blindsight 500 ft., and they lack true seeing. Dragons may have treasure hoards, but Zargon has an entire ancient civilization which worships him as a god. A dragon is a dragon but Zargon is an elder evil. Now yes, maybe if you select the feats and spells for a dragon, it may fair slightly better. But if we want an accurate picture of what WotC expected a fully fleshed out CR 16 dragon to actually look like, just look at the back of the draconomicon.


Ultimately, I'd say Zargon is on the weaker side of CR 16s (lack of flight, teleportation, plane shifting and such is really the biggest of his problems) though it's fairly on par with Cornugon. Mobility makes Dragons and Cornugon ultimately more dangerous in my books though, even though they share much of the issues Zargon has with high powered PCs. It's only weaker by a lot compared to the Planetar and Nightwalker. The only one it clearly beats is Greater Stone Golem (which honestly has no business being CR 16). I think it's probably the wisest to ignore Hound Archon Hero since leveled monsters are generally dysfunctional and that statblock is particularly weird with all the strange stuff regarding the mount and Leadership.
While you do allude to Zargon's ability to instantly annihilate almost anyone in melee range, I feel as if some of Zargon's greatest strengths are not really given much weight. These strengths include:

His extreme intelligence.
His excellent array of immunities coupled with fantastic saving throws.
The difficulty inherent to gathering information about Zargon.
His sign

Zargon's sign is easily his most powerful ability. Just by existing, seven times a day, there is a rain of slime which contaminates all exposed water in the entire world. Any creature that drinks the water essentially becomes a whelp of Zargon that then goes on to create even more whelps. This means that in just a few days Zargon, again just by existing, creates millions / billions of loyal servants in every village, town, and city. If Zargon plays his cards right, players may not even know that he is the cause of the infection.

Not even the planetar can pose such a unique and potentially campaign ending threat to the PCs.

Also none of the other CR 16 monster's destruction is contingent on what essentially amounts to destroying an artifact (a task whose difficulty is 100% DM adjudicated) in one days time.

[MeimuHakurei]

I'm going to point out the arcane elephant in the room and say that an 11th/12th level Wizard has an easier time soloing Zargon because he's not immune to Legend Lore (I'm going to assume for a moment that Zargon the Returner could possibly considered a creature of legendary importance) and his sign and such would help narrow down the search area for him (Wizards aren't hurting for scouting options over a wide area). The only forms of offense Zargon has against Wizards hovering outside of his reach are three Lightning Bolts and one Acid Fog, all of which said Wizard can dodge with Abrupt Jaunt (even if not, 10d6 lightning damage three times isn't the hardest thing in the world to survive). Zargon also has no way of avoiding Orbs of Fire/Cold which bypass the horn's regeneration.

[Zecrin]

I'm going to point out the arcane elephant in the room and say that an 11th/12th level Wizard has an easier time soloing Zargon because he's not immune to Legend Lore (I'm going to assume for a moment that Zargon the Returner could possibly considered a creature of legendary importance) and his sign and such would help narrow down the search area for him (Wizards aren't hurting for scouting options over a wide area). The only forms of offense Zargon has against Wizards hovering outside of his reach are three Lightning Bolts and one Acid Fog, all of which said Wizard can dodge with Abrupt Jaunt (even if not, 10d6 lightning damage three times isn't the hardest thing in the world to survive). Zargon also has no way of avoiding Orbs of Fire/Cold which bypass the horn's regeneration.

Don't forget Zargon's nondetection. Also casting legend lore on Zargon would likely take 2d6 weeks, a luxury that Zargon's sign may prevent you from enjoying. As for hovering outside Zargon's reach, this might actually be pretty difficult especially if you fight him in either an enclosed area or underwater at which time Zargon's 14 attacks per turn will probably negate the benefits of abrupt jaunt.

If Zargon starts off imprisoned though instead of free, finding him before he's released and then killing him isn't actually that difficult I will concede.

[Anthrowhale]

1) I looked through Eldariel's cleric charger. Nightstick stacking is something that I've never seen allowed in a real game. Of course, a similar approach can be made via Spelldancer, and I suspect there is quite a bit of room to improve the build as no advantage from spontaneous Anyspell seems to be in use.

2) I'm a little bit skeptical of orb-to-death as the number of hitpoints is large enough to resist that effectively and there is resist fire/cold 20 to get through. It's also valid to point out that the sign forces tactical engagement on Zargon's terms and Zargon is smart enough to take advantage of that.

3) Zargon has essentially no protection from optimized divine casters. Divine casters can shift their spells to be arcane via Alternate Source Spell or Southern Magician. Furthermore, it's common for an optimized divine caster to use one of these for other purposes, such as in Eldariel's build.

4) Zargon's many defenses are pretty near irrelevant to a cleric using a Vorpal weapon + Surge of Fortune + Sense Weakness. A vorpal weapon is expensive (72 K), but a level 11 cleric (using the variant that gets access to sorcerer/wizard spells) could craft it for half price.

[Zecrin]

3) Zargon has essentially no protection from optimized divine casters. Divine casters can shift their spells to be arcane via Alternate Source Spell or Southern Magician. Furthermore, it's common for an optimized divine caster to use one of these for other purposes, such as in Eldariel's build.

Well, I personally haven't seen many optimized cleric builds using these feats, but that may speak more to my ignorance than the feats' prevalence . Alternate source spell kind of loses points in my eyes because its from dragon magazine. Also southern magician is not only campaign specific, but also region specific. I don't think that I've ever played in a campaign where I've had the ability to select either of these, but that's just my experience. I would say that Zargon has pretty substantial protection from the vast majority of optimized divine casters trying to gather information about him. Maybe not insurmountable protection, but protection that is not only difficult to bypass, but better than those of any CR 16 monster, or many monsters in the epic level handbook.


4) Zargon's many defenses are pretty near irrelevant to a cleric using a Vorpal weapon + Surge of Fortune + Sense Weakness. A vorpal weapon is expensive (72 K), but a level 11 cleric (using the variant that gets access to sorcerer/wizard spells) could craft it for half price.

This strategy actually works pretty well against Zargon and any monster that has a head for that matter. However, unlike many monsters, Zargon does have some defenses against this tactic. First and foremost, this strategy is most effective when used in tandem with scry and die. However, as already noted, scrying and dying Zargon may not be super easy given anethmatic secrecy, non detection, and his excellent will saving throw. Second (but this one isn't actually significant for an optimizer), just as you can "kill" Zargon in one round, Zargon can also kill you in one round and Zargon has the better reach. Finally though, unlike the vast majority of villians, cutting of Zargon's head doesn't actually destroy him forever; you still have to destroy the horn in one days time.

Also, and I'm sure that this is done via some method that I'm unaware of, but how does the cleric craft a vorpal weapon at level 11, when vorpal requires a minimum CL of 18? I'm aware that there are ways to temporarily increase CL, but this would have to be maintained for weeks. Regardless, I'm somewhat dubious of an 11th level cleric who has 36,000 gp in cash on his or her person.

[Blackhawk748]

My question is, do you really wanna be in melee range of that thing? I really don't

[Anthrowhale]

Also, and I'm sure that this is done via some method that I'm unaware of, but how does the cleric craft a vorpal weapon at level 11, when vorpal requires a minimum CL of 18? I'm aware that there are ways to temporarily increase CL, but this would have to be maintained for weeks. Regardless, I'm somewhat dubious of an 11th level cleric who has 36,000 gp in cash on his or her person.
The easiest way to do this is via the 'Circle Magic' feat from Ghostwalk which allows you to boost up to caster level 20 daily. It's a toned down version of the Circle Magic class feature that Red Wizard/Hathran/Halruaan Elder have. Of course, you could do the full Hathran thing, but caster level 40 is not needed here and Hathran takes an extra feat.

W.r.t. "do you want to be in melee range", it's survivable if you boost your AC a bunch, and melee seems to be best way to quickly subdue it if you are trying to save the world from sliming. Alternatively, you could stealth your way in and surprise attack. Alternatively, you could teleport in and attack. Alternatively, you could win the reach war. Alternatively, you could be something with a super-high dexterity, win initiative, tumble through defenses, and attack.

W.r.t. cost, 36K is certainly high. The typical rule I've seen is that you can spend up to half your WBL on an item, so at about level 11.27 you can afford it and the xp cost is about .26 levels, so that works out nicely.

W.r.t. not really dead: it's a minor issue. You may need to use the Vorpal Weapon a number of times before finally figuring out how to destroy the artifact.

[Zecrin]

The easiest way to do this is via the 'Circle Magic' feat from Ghostwalk which allows you to boost up to caster level 20 daily. It's a toned down version of the Circle Magic class feature that Red Wizard/Hathran/Halruaan Elder have. Of course, you could do the full Hathran thing, but caster level 40 is not needed here and Hathran takes an extra feat.

W.r.t. "do you want to be in melee range", it's survivable if you boost your AC a bunch, and melee seems to be best way to quickly subdue it if you are trying to save the world from sliming. Alternatively, you could stealth your way in and surprise attack. Alternatively, you could teleport in and attack. Alternatively, you could win the reach war. Alternatively, you could be something with a super-high dexterity, win initiative, tumble through defenses, and attack.

W.r.t. cost, 36K is certainly high. The typical rule I've seen is that you can spend up to half your WBL on an item, so at about level 11.27 you can afford it and the xp cost is about .26 levels, so that works out nicely.

W.r.t. not really dead: it's a minor issue. You may need to use the Vorpal Weapon a number of times before finally figuring out how to destroy the artifact.

Wouldn't the entire campaign setting be destroyed by Zargon's sign before you could finish making the item?

[Anthrowhale]

Wouldn't the entire campaign setting be destroyed by Zargon's sign before you could finish making the item?

If the construction is a part of backstory or pre-Zargon development then 'no', otherwise 'yes'.

[ShurikVch]

If the construction is a part of backstory or pre-Zargon development then 'no', otherwise 'yes'.Something something WbL something something 12th level...

[Zecrin]

If the construction is a part of backstory or pre-Zargon development then 'no', otherwise 'yes'.

How many other monsters require you to use backstory and pre-monster developments to defeat them? Can't we agree that if Zargon doesn't have the handicap of starting off imprisoned, he is very powerful and threatening for a CR 16 monster, and not "so weak?"

[Anthrowhale]

How many other monsters require you to use backstory and pre-monster developments to defeat them?

Using items to assist in defeating monsters is pretty common in my experience. There are some persistomancer builds which avoid this, but otherwise I think it's essentially always required at high levels.


Can't we agree that if Zargon doesn't have the handicap of starting off imprisoned, he is very powerful and threatening for a CR 16 monster, and not "so weak?"

I suspect you are arguing with other people? I've never called him "so weak"?

Zargon's a melee brute which has a sign dangerous enough that you need to kill him quickly if you care about the world. Stacking up enough damage to knock him down is a basic exercise in planning complicated by his immunities and by the need to do it quickly given the sign. Melee brutes are generally dangerous if you fail to do this but generally easy if you do. A melee brute is like a bomb: very dangerous in a local proximity, but otherwise harmless, and also harmless if disarmed which requires some knowledge and planning.

Whether this one is rightly placed at CR 16 or not... maybe? I haven't seen an argument that he's better placed at CR 15. What CR do you think he should be? Honestly, I tend to expect some amount of strategic transport/information gathering/attack for higher CR monsters with that strategic capability making them substantially more difficult to cope with.

[ThanatosZero]

It may not exist, but are there any stats of the fully manifested elder evils for epic campaigns?

I know that even the infamous Punpun cannot challenge the Lady of Pain, because she has no stats, but a instant win condition against anyone, which makes her angry.

[Zecrin]

Using items to assist in defeating monsters is pretty common in my experience. There are some persistomancer builds which avoid this, but otherwise I think it's essentially always required at high levels.

Yes, this is 100% true. I’m not saying that you can’t use items to fight Zargons, it’s expected that you do. However, if Zargon is free to walk around the campaign world then you cannot craft items; you don’t have the time. This is a threat that, out of all the CR 16 monsters, is unique to Zargon. You could say that you make the item before Zargon arrives on your plane, but I could say that Zargon has amassed millions or billions of servants and magic items before arriving. If you just take a high level character and place them into a campaign setting where Zargon has already established himself, then Zargon has a huge advantage. If you take Zargon and place him into a campaign where a high level character has already established him or herself, then the character has a huge advantage. If you place them both into a world at the same time then Zargon can theoretically accumulate advantage much faster than the high level character.


I suspect you are arguing with other people? I've never called him "so weak"?

I didn’t really ask this question to argue with you; I wanted to reach a point of consensus. The point I’ve been trying to make is that contrary to what this thread’s title implies, the elder evils (specifically Zargon) aren’t “so weak.”


Zargon's a melee brute which has a sign dangerous enough that you need to kill him quickly if you care about the world. Stacking up enough damage to knock him down is a basic exercise in planning complicated by his immunities and by the need to do it quickly given the sign. Melee brutes are generally dangerous if you fail to do this but generally easy if you do. A melee brute is like a bomb: very dangerous in a local proximity, but otherwise harmless, and also harmless if disarmed which requires some knowledge and planning.

Compared to almost any monster in the monster manual and some in the ELH, finding Zargon, creating a plan to defeat him, and then removing the threat he poses to the world is not a basic exercise. Sure, Zargon isn’t as patently powerful as an optimized and prepared full caster; there’s only one or two fully statted monsters in 3.5 that are, but saying that Zargon is just another melee brute is exceedingly deceptive. By your own definition, Zargon doesn’t qualify; he’s not harmless outside a local proximity. In fact, there are no non-epic monsters that without some degree of cheese like chain-gating, pose as wide a reaching and persistent threat as does Zargon.

Also, I’m not sure what you mean by disarmed via knowledge and planning. Do you mean that with knowledge and planning you can kill a melee brute? Because if so, I assure you that a party of optimized characters can eliminate any full caster with knowledge and planning too. The thing that distinguishes Zargon and Full Casters from melee brutes here is the fact that the former two have some sort of effective, yet rarely insurmountable defense against the two. Zargon has great defenses against both, which have already been discussed. These defenses may not be quite as good as those of an optimized caster, but remember, the consequences of failing to pierce Zargon’s defenses is much steeper.


Whether this one is rightly placed at CR 16 or not... maybe? I haven't seen an argument that he's better placed at CR 15. What CR do you think he should be? Honestly, I tend to expect some amount of strategic transport/information gathering/attack for higher CR monsters with that strategic capability making them substantially more difficult to cope with.

I think that CR 16 is a great place for Zargon. I also think that Zargon is one of the few higher CR monsters that is neither a full caster nor abusing magic items which may actually be able to pose a modicum of threat to higher level parties.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Thinaun is a great way to neuter Zargon, regardless of its crazy regen.

Also, toss the horn in a haversack. Combine with a portable hole.

[unseenmage]

Thinaun is a great way to neuter Zargon, regardless of its crazy regen.

Also, toss the horn in a haversack. Combine with a portable hole.

None. That just dumps it into the planes.

Horn into Bag of Holding, pierce bag, then its "lost forever".

[ZamielVanWeber]

None. That just dumps it into the planes.

Horn into Bag of Holding, pierce bag, then its "lost forever".
As long as it is a countable forever Zargon may be back.

[Anthrowhale]

If you place them both into a world at the same time then Zargon can theoretically accumulate advantage much faster than the high level character.

I'm unclear on this. The lack of strategic scale transport means that Zargon mostly has to walk to accumulate power, which is super slow. Zargon's sign kills the ecosystem, but Zargon seems to lack the tools to take advantage of this in a serious way. If a level 11.27 cleric must travel to a separate plane for a couple months to construct an item before killing Zargon, success still seems likely---I don't expect an army of Whelps of Zargon to make a difference one way or another. The world will be mostly a wasteland of oozes (blech), but Zargon himself will still die.


I didn’t really ask this question to argue with you; I wanted to reach a point of consensus. The point I’ve been trying to make is that contrary to what this thread’s title implies, the elder evils (specifically Zargon) aren’t “so weak.”

If you read the OP, the question is really "is CR 16 right?" Above, you say "yes" so it seems like you are in agreement.


By your own definition, Zargon doesn’t qualify; he’s not harmless outside a local proximity.

Zargon has no strategic movement ability and it appears none of the minions do either, so I assume you are referring to the sign? If so, is Zargon's sign a part of his CR? Does it affect the actual combat with Zargon? I think the answer is "no" to both questions.


Also, I’m not sure what you mean by disarmed via knowledge and planning. Do you mean that with knowledge and planning you can kill a melee brute? Because if so, I assure you that a party of optimized characters can eliminate any full caster with knowledge and planning too.

It's much harder though, because the full caster can play the same game, and it may win.


The thing that distinguishes Zargon and Full Casters from melee brutes here is the fact that the former two have some sort of effective, yet rarely insurmountable defense against the two. Zargon has great defenses against both, which have already been discussed. These defenses may not be quite as good as those of an optimized caster, but remember, the consequences of failing to pierce Zargon’s defenses is much steeper.

I'll grant that Zargon is sort of like some of the ELH monsters in that it's immunities create a puzzle monster (find a key, kill the monster) and a melee brute (high AC / high attack / high damage). But Zargon is nothing like a full caster in the sense that if you are on a different plane plotting it's demise, Zargon can't touch you. Even if you are a thousand miles away on the same plane Zargon has no real ability to impede other than via the sign. Zargon will generally be completely unaware of you unless you intentionally inform him/it or get close enough. In most circumstances, Zargon is totally unaware of anything beyond the 500' radius blindsight.


I think that CR 16 is a great place for Zargon. I also think that Zargon is one of the few higher CR monsters that is neither a full caster nor abusing magic items which may actually be able to pose a modicum of threat to higher level parties.
Maybe? I think it depends on optimization level a great deal. It's at least plausible that a higher level party would be overconfident, encounter Zargon without adequate preparation, suffer a fatality, teleport out, resurrect, research, come back prepared, and win.

[Eldariel]

Zargon has no strategic movement ability and it appears none of the minions do either, so I assume you are referring to the sign? If so, is Zargon's sign a part of his CR? Does it affect the actual combat with Zargon? I think the answer is "no" to both questions.

This is the key point and why I'd worry more about a Nightshade or a Cornugon. Further, Zargon's tactical movement modes are decidedly lackluster. This restricts Zargon to mostly underground/underwater locations and prevents overland travel altogether lest he be attacked from the air where he can't do his "kill you"-thing. This lack of options severely cuts to Zargon's ability to put his massive Int to use: intelligence is ultimately about being able to figure out your options and pick the best one but when your raw abilities offer you very few options, that isn't such a powerful advantage. This also gives the PCs the strategic initiative: they may decide when to fight (within the constraints of the rain of slime and whelps doing nasty business) and while not where to fight (if they want to avert the rain of filth), Zargon is quite restricted in its potential environments. This makes preparation quite easy once the few key pieces of information have been acquired.

Now, Zargon's anti-information gathering abilities are nice, but it's still a fallible passive defense with the classic Mage Slayer-flaw; nobody cares about any amount of passive defenses without sufficiently dangerous active offense (commonly, Mage Slayer characters are balls of immunities and huge stats with zero ways to address the fact that mages can move 2000 miles in 6 seconds and ask gods questions while the Mage Slayer walks and asks questions from commoners). In Zargon's case, the apocalypse stuff is his active thing but it's global, not directed, and thus doesn't put PCs at a meaningful risk (because Heal cures the infection, it doesn't really matter except for characters with under 7 in one of the targeted ability scores thus risking getting oneshot).

[Lorddenorstrus]

I mean, maybe a threat to low op low magic groups? But, your original surmise of a group of 20s is kinda a joke. I remember Tippys competition where a Monk solo'd all the elder evils. Back to back. LOL. Sure, the martials need some levels and ridiculous optimizing to do that. But a basics caster with decent optimization is whipping these guys by 14-16 range easy. You don't have to go chain contingency crap or demiplanes of different time etc to destroy anything wotc statted out. Because they severely under statted the majority of their creatures.

Side comment I noticed someone comment "60 damage per round" as low for a party near lvl 10 like wut? I have characters that do higher damage per round than that by lvl 6. Much less a party. You guys start with 10s in all stats or something?

[danielxcutter]

I'd say there is a considerable gap between "OP plz nerf" levels of powerful, and "threat".

Personally, Zargon is no full caster, but his melee capacities are best described as "instant death range" if you don't have something like Greater Blink or Stoneskin up. Really, the only "problem" is that his abilities are severely skewed towards beating face, like the Tarrasque - except unlike the Tarrasque, Zargon is smart and also has an entire civilization backing him up, as has been mentioned, and worse his sign seriously screws with the entire setting.

Also seriously, why do the Eberron adaption sections just go with Daeklyr? Zargon and Serterous honestly work a bit better as Overlords, IMO. Ragnorra is absolutely a Daeklyr, though. Maybe Pandorym could be a Quori?

Hmm... I don't think the Hulks are too weak, either. For one, half the world is probably trying to punch the other half to death by the time you face them, so personal power matters much less than normal. For another, you have to face all five at once. Also, they can summon CR 11~12 monsters 1/day each - which I think can be affected by the Sign? - , and they have fiat "already know you're there". And that's assuming the DM doesn't smoosh the cult part into that too.

[remetagross]

Something I have always liked with the avatar of the Leviathan is its "the dead remain dead, no workaround allowed" ability. It's like playing a Pokemon Nuzlocke: even though the PCs are well prepared and well equipped, they know an untimely crit will not allow for second chances. It gives off a nice stress vibe to the encounter, methink.

[Eldariel]

I'd say there is a considerable gap between "OP plz nerf" levels of powerful, and "threat".

Personally, Zargon is no full caster, but his melee capacities are best described as "instant death range" if you don't have something like Greater Blink or Stoneskin up. Really, the only "problem" is that his abilities are severely skewed towards beating face, like the Tarrasque - except unlike the Tarrasque, Zargon is smart and also has an entire civilization backing him up, as has been mentioned, and worse his sign seriously screws with the entire setting.

Also seriously, why do the Eberron adaption sections just go with Daeklyr? Zargon and Serterous honestly work a bit better as Overlords, IMO. Ragnorra is absolutely a Daeklyr, though. Maybe Pandorym could be a Quori?

Hmm... I don't think the Hulks are too weak, either. For one, half the world is probably trying to punch the other half to death by the time you face them, so personal power matters much less than normal. For another, you have to face all five at once. Also, they can summon CR 11~12 monsters 1/day each - which I think can be affected by the Sign? - , and they have fiat "already know you're there". And that's assuming the DM doesn't smoosh the cult part into that too.

The big issue I have with Zargon is that it lacks some extremely core abilities for this level: some way to interact with magic (be it some wild magic/random magic/screw-with-buffs or traditional dispelling or antimagic field or some sort of pervert-magic ability or whatever) and basic mobility (if it's supposed to be a godlike being, it honestly shouldn't be stuck walking around at 40'/round or swimming at 60'/round. It should have some sort of ability to at the very least act outside its apparent range. It's kinda lovecraftian so why not some spatial ****ery to use tentacles as ranged attacks and walk through gaps in space and such. This makes him pretty whatever on the levels you're actually supposed to fight him. He's a better huge bruisery thing than the Tarrasque by a lot; he at least has the basic abilities and immunities down, and he does something if you leave him there for even just a moment. But he'd still need a bit more. He isn't far off base from being decent though, but the full attack rules of 3.X seriously screw with him.

[atemu1234]

I having been a DM for only a few years i will put my thoughts on the table as well. so take them as you will.

looking at Zargon i think his CR is way under powered. and here is why(copy pasted stats and info from the book.)

hp 342 (18 HD); regeneration 50; DR 15/epic
Regeneration (Ex) Cold and fire deal normal damage to Zargon. If Zargon loses a limb or body part it grows back in 1 minute. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.
Resist cold 20, fire 20; SR 28
Immune acid, anathematic secrecy (malefic property), disease, poison; elder evil immunities

(unlike most monsters with regeneration he does not take extra damage from fire or acid. so no weakness there to exploit.)

Melee 12 tentacles +36 each (2d6+20 19–20x2)
and gore +34 (3d6+10)
and bite +34 (2d6+10 plus 3d6 acid plus slime)
with a Reach of 15 ft. (30 ft. with tentacles)
Base Atk +18; Grp +46

Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, Zargon must hit an opponent of up to Huge size with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. It receives a +2 bonus on the grapple check for each tentacle that hits. If it wins the grapple check and maintains the hold in the next round, it automatically bites the foe at that time.
(so the fighter moves to attack and gets hit at least 2 times(fighter has plate armor and moves 20 ft per round unless he charges then he moves 40 feet.). i always have the party start combat at 60 feet.)

Constrict (Ex) Zargon deals 2d6+20 points of damage with a successful grapple check, in addition to damage from its tentacle attack.
(with this i don't know of any level 20 fighters that could best Zargon in a grapple. as most fighters may have a +30 grapple modifier(+10 str Mod +20 BAB) if they are lucky and built that way. that means that if i roll a 2 to beat the grapple the fighter has to roll a 19 or better to not get grappled. and i don't know of many fighters with 365 health(average damage of all attacks combined))

here is the really killer part:smallfrown:

Divine Enervation (Su) All divine spellcasters(cleric, druid, paladin, favored soul, etc) lose the ability to regain spells so long as they remain within 100 miles of Zargon. This interdiction does not interfere with spellcasting.

(if you use the standard of about 40 miles of travel per day(30 ft per round 300ft per minute 18,000ft per hour and travel for 12 hours a day) then they will have to travel at minimum of 2 1/2 days to reach Zargon. throw any type of fight their way where the healer has to heal and well... no healing spells when you go up against Zargon.)

and then on top of it :smalleek:

Horn (Ex) Zargon’s horn grants him regeneration 50 and a +6 resistance bonus on saving throws. Removing the horn requires a touch attack followed by a DC 39 Strength check, and doing so makes Zargon lose its benefits. The horn “regrows” Zargon(he comes back to fight the party again) after 1d4 days. The horn is destroyed if it is dropped into the Eye of Zargon, far(day or 2 to travel far? up to the DM) below in the lost city, within "ONE DAY1" of Zargon’s death.
(1. emphasise added)

(if you are a DM like me then the "lost city" will be a dungeon to fight through to get to "the eye". at which point most parties IF they survived are going to rest for a day then go fight the dungeon or head back to town if they didn't find the info about the horn. because how cool would it be to have the horn of an elder evil hung up in your house. so now 4 days from the lost city you get to fight him again and again and again, etc. this "weak boss" is a monster that you could end up fighting several times just trying to get it to "the eye" to kill him. now how many parties are going to survive the first time vs multiple fights of this guy? in the 1st battle you lost the wizard. 2nd battle you lose the rogue. 3rd battle the party is dead.)

so in my opinion i wouldn't send this guy after a party of 4 until they were at least level 20 or higher. i would probably not even send this against a party of 6 that aren't level 20+

On the one hand, the idea of Zargon repeatedly regenerating and being slain by the party within the lost city time and time again until it becomes vaguely boring appeals to my sense of irony.

Zargon: "Mortals! This time I will consume your flesh!"
Party Fighter, on his 60th hour of overtime this week: "Dude, this is the tenth time this month, and it isn't even halfway over yet. Give it a rest."

[Asmotherion]

Yes, I was mostly looking at Zargon when I wrote this post up...

I was reading his fluff and I was like "holy crap this guy is going to be so overpowered!"

...

And then I read CR 16 and it was all downhill from there...

I truly have no idea what WoTC was thinking.

Probably: "Roughly 2/3 of our players are not optimisers and the ones who do optimise are on various levels of optimisation... Also most don't even touch the Epic Level Handbook... Let's publish something that the people who buy it can actually use in any thematically appropriate campain and let the DM/Players imagine what the actual stats of a full-powered Elder Evil is (probably something on the lines of Deities and Demigods) wile providing them with lesser aspects so they can interact with them/fight them."

Personally i imagine the Elder Evils havind similar rules as Deities: 20 Outsider HD +around 40 class levels and probably some Pervation of Divine Abilities.

[shadows7114]

as we all know it is really up to the DM on how they want the monsters to act. if the DM is foolish in Using a Monster than any D&D character could defeat any monster. but it really depends on the DM. i personally when using Zargon would have the party face multiple fight before reaching Zargon. that means that the cleric and other divine casters are going to run out of spells to keep everyone at tip top fighting shape. so now you fight zargon with only 1-2 high level spells (if that) and almost no low level spells. so the cleric gets to heal 1-2 people that take a lot of damage. it really depends on how the DM treats this Elder evil. if the DM is creative then the party will have a .000000000001% chance to win. i have had a party fight my BBG and forgot about this or that and it turned the fight into a massacre. but i will rest my case.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

as we all know it is really up to the DM on how they want the monsters to act. if the DM is foolish in Using a Monster than any D&D character could defeat any monster. but it really depends on the DM. i personally when using Zargon would have the party face multiple fight before reaching Zargon. that means that the cleric and other divine casters are going to run out of spells to keep everyone at tip top fighting shape. so now you fight zargon with only 1-2 high level spells (if that) and almost no low level spells. so the cleric gets to heal 1-2 people that take a lot of damage. it really depends on how the DM treats this Elder evil. if the DM is creative then the party will have a .000000000001% chance to win. i have had a party fight my BBG and forgot about this or that and it turned the fight into a massacre. but i will rest my case.So what you're saying is...

Tucker's Zargon?

[Eldariel]

as we all know it is really up to the DM on how they want the monsters to act. if the DM is foolish in Using a Monster than any D&D character could defeat any monster. but it really depends on the DM. i personally when using Zargon would have the party face multiple fight before reaching Zargon. that means that the cleric and other divine casters are going to run out of spells to keep everyone at tip top fighting shape. so now you fight zargon with only 1-2 high level spells (if that) and almost no low level spells. so the cleric gets to heal 1-2 people that take a lot of damage. it really depends on how the DM treats this Elder evil. if the DM is creative then the party will have a .000000000001% chance to win. i have had a party fight my BBG and forgot about this or that and it turned the fight into a massacre. but i will rest my case.

So...we're just ignoring the fact that party has multiple ways to bypass encounters and pick what to fight and that the Cleric is most certainly not healing against Zargon since that's useless?

[Mr Adventurer]

A party being specifically optimised to overcome a particular challenge will always be able to tackle that challenge at a lower level than a party optimised to do something else. That is not the same as the particular challenge in question being underpowered.

[Eldariel]

A party being specifically optimised to overcome a particular challenge will always be able to tackle that challenge at a lower level than a party optimised to do something else. That is not the same as the particular challenge in question being underpowered.

Then again, everything you'd want against e.g. Zargon is also generic good stuff (autokill melee or being able to hit things for a lot of damage is useful, being immune to most annoying status conditions and attacks is useful, flight, teleportation and plane shifting is the most important paradigm shift in the whole system and thus beyond useful). Thus you don't really need to optimise for a specific challenge as much as just pick generic good stuff and face whatever.

[danielxcutter]

Just because optimize-fu can beat something doesn't make it weak. Unless the DM has given you some rather specific knowledge about Zargon and/or the players are highly optimized, I doubt that fight is going to be any sort of easy.

[Gemini476]

In regards to that one comment earlier in the thread about just knocking them so low into nonlethal damage land that Zargon's going to sleep for years, chances are that it's actually just going to be a ten-minute nap. As per the PHB glossary, every minute you're unconscious because of nonlethal damage you have a 10% chance to wake up and be staggered. Being staggered, of course, resets the nonlethal damage to be equal to your hit points.

Also, for reference, the Zargon arena is a 50ft x 80ft x 18ft tall. If you're in the room, you're probably within melee range of him - not to mention the three CorrupturesMM4 and three Whelps of Zargon. Flight is kind of useless due to the low cieling, but keeps you out of reach of the Whelps and helps make the central 37ft pit safe.
There's also a ton of difficult terrain in the room that makes charging difficult, but not impossible if you have the Balance bonus. Or flight.
It's still not that tough a fight, but it's also EL17 aimed towards a probably 12th-level unoptimized party so context matters. The expectation is probably that someone wrenches the horn from his skull to disable his regeneration and then the party does their best to beat him down.

Much like all of the Elder Evils, the expectation is that the players will manage to kill them... but the campaign world will be unrecognizeable from the Sign, and thus you have an excuse to transition to 4E. (2E->3E did the same thing with The Apocalypse Stone and Die, Vecna, Die!, with The Dungeon of Death doing something similar in a "kill the PCs to have an excuse to make new characters in the new system" way.)


Zargon's definitely a weaker part of the book, though. Of the three non-original Elder Evils (Zargon from B4 The Lost City, Kyuss from way back in the 1E Fiend Folio, Pandorym from the Darkvision novel), I kind of feel like he was done the dirtiest. Especially since they just took the fifth level of a ten-level dungeon, stripped it of everything original, and called it quits. Especially since they changed the suggested entrance to the dungeon so chances are that you will just go straight from the entrance to the Zargon fight.

Dude's not even an apocalyptic threat or anything in the original module, he's just a Conan-esque "monster acting as false god" in a very heavily Conan-inspired module. It only ruined the civilization indirectly: its cultists became drug-addicted and unable to defend themselves against a barbarian invasion. It's not extraplanar or anything, it's just one of those things you find when you Dig Too Greedily And Too Deep.

However, note that 12HD is stronger than the original Balrog and thus making it CR16 isn't entirely off. Levels mean very different things in classic D&D and 3E.

[Mato]

A bit late to the party but...

The powers are completely unspecified fluff. I'm not saying it's a super strong explanation or anything, but it isn't entirely ignored.The elder evils are immune to divination spells cast by divine spellcasters and a few vile feats provide extra bonuses against the divine. Such as the apostate feat which can give a level 16 creature a +8 bonus on all saves against divine spells.

[danielxcutter]

On the other end of the spectrum are Mind Shards of Pandorym - sure, Obligatum by-the-book technically can't actually break the prison by RAW, but that's pretty much the only problem. If a Shard gets both its Inertial Armor PLA and a fully augumented Force Screen up, that's a 45 AC - not easy to hit for 18th-level or 20th-level PCs, and a good part of that also applies to touch AC.

[Eldariel]

On the other end of the spectrum are Mind Shards of Pandorym - sure, Obligatum by-the-book technically can't actually break the prison by RAW, but that's pretty much the only problem. If a Shard gets both its Inertial Armor PLA and a fully augumented Force Screen up, that's a 45 AC - not easy to hit for 18th-level or 20th-level PCs, and a good part of that also applies to touch AC.

I dunno, that's just AC. Level 18-20 PCs are casting Disjunctions and Gating in Solars; simple AC is of little matter up here. Honestly, it's strong but for 20th level PCs, I don't think it's insurmountable. It has saves and HP and stuff but its offense leaves a lot to be desired. Stuff like Mental Subjugation would be really impressive...if this weren't high enough level for everyone to have Mind Blank (though even simple Protection from Evil protects against direct mental control). It has Reality Revision as the big button but otherwise it's just a Psion 20 (with the usual Schism but surprisingly no Synchronity, Temporal Acceleration or other psionic nova options) with really high defensive numbers and the standard Elder Evil immunity package. I dunno, CR25 is pretty okay if even a bit high. This is the level where casting is everything and the Mind Shard isn't an especially powerful 20th level caster.

[danielxcutter]

I dunno, that's just AC. Level 18-20 PCs are casting Disjunctions and Gating in Solars; simple AC is of little matter up here. Honestly, it's strong but for 20th level PCs, I don't think it's insurmountable. It has saves and HP and stuff but its offense leaves a lot to be desired. Stuff like Mental Subjugation would be really impressive...if this weren't high enough level for everyone to have Mind Blank (though even simple Protection from Evil protects against direct mental control). It has Reality Revision as the big button but otherwise it's just a Psion 20 (with the usual Schism but surprisingly no Synchronity, Temporal Acceleration or other psionic nova options) with really high defensive numbers and the standard Elder Evil immunity package. I dunno, CR25 is pretty okay if even a bit high. This is the level where casting is everything and the Mind Shard isn't an especially powerful 20th level caster.

Nitpick: gating in Solars is explicitly impossible due to the Sign of Binding, but I get what you mean.

It also has some slight errors in calculating the AC(without Force Screen on), I think the guy who designed it didn't read Improved Metapsionics properly, and the feats are somewhat... lacking(why, why take Psionic Talent five times when you can get most of it with a single Improved Manifestation???), but it's not bad.

The "everyone has Mind Blank" is point a bit undermined when Shards have both Dispel Psionics and Shatter Mind Blank by default. And with five Improved Metapsionics, as well as Epic Psionic Focus, it can be dishing out some serious blasting each round.

I'm not saying that it can't be improved(it absolutely can) or that it's nigh-impossible to defeat, I'm just saying that even by-the-book Shards are hardly weak.

[Eldariel]

Nitpick: gating in Solars is explicitly impossible due to the Sign of Binding, but I get what you mean.

It also has some slight errors in calculating the AC(without Force Screen on), I think the guy who designed it didn't read Improved Metapsionics properly, and the feats are somewhat... lacking(why, why take Psionic Talent five times when you can get most of it with a single Improved Manifestation???), but it's not bad.

The "everyone has Mind Blank" is point a bit undermined when Shards have both Dispel Psionics and Shatter Mind Blank by default. And with five Improved Metapsionics, as well as Epic Psionic Focus, it can be dishing out some serious blasting each round.

I'm not saying that it can't be improved(it absolutely can) or that it's nigh-impossible to defeat, I'm just saying that even by-the-book Shards are hardly weak.

Dispel Psionics isn't very reliable on this level anymore (since it's capped at +20) though it's nice to have. Shatter Mind Blank is indeed pretty good but it does offer save and checks for Power Resistance until it actually gets to use its big ticket abilities (those DC 48s are nasty though, I'll give you that; even a martial adept using Moment of Perfect Mind or Diamond Defense will not beat that easily unless they're specifically optimising their saves). Yeah, it doesn't just roll over and die but its big ticket abilities are gated behind succeeding some other actions to do much. Though again, anything with Reality Revision is something you can't take lightly, especially since it gets to use it 4 times. Still, in a battle between 4 casters and Mind Shard, I don't expect for the Mind Shard to last long simply due to action economy and it missing some of the better action economy stuff Psionics offers.

[Mato]

Still, in a battle between 4 casters and Mind Shard, I don't expect for the Mind Shard to last long simply due to action economy and it missing some of the better action economy stuff Psionics offers.Those four casters better not be clerics & druids. They ran out of spells a couple days ago due to the mind shard negating their ability to recover them. Evil clerics also lost control of their undead minions, and no one has any summons to use.

Also by action count, the encounter is designed for you to deal with Obligatum VII, six dread wraiths, it's possible for Lucather to be there, as well as it's ability to summon undead, it's schism spamming twinned or quickened powers, it's swift action ego whip, it's bonus actions/turns from reality revision, the continued wisdom drain that'll turn an entire party member and all their actions against you, and it's normal twinned manifestations.

[Eldariel]

Those four casters better not be clerics & druids. They ran out of spells a couple days ago due to the mind shard negating their ability to recover them. Evil clerics also lost control of their undead minions, and no one has any summons to use.

Also by action count, the encounter is designed for you to deal with Obligatum VII, six dread wraiths, it's possible for Lucather to be there, as well as it's ability to summon undead, it's schism spamming twinned or quickened powers, it's swift action ego whip, it's bonus actions/turns from reality revision, the continued wisdom drain that'll turn an entire party member and all their actions against you, and it's normal twinned manifestations.

Um, even Overwhelming Sign only gives them 20% chance of being unable to recover a spell. Divine Enervation has the 1000 mile thing, which can be a bit annoying to deal with combined with the Overwhelming sign but there are still transportation options that work fairly reliably (Master Earth, Wish-portation, etc. - Wind Walk lacks sufficient speed) enabling covering 1000 miles quickly enough that you can go recover your spells and come back as need be. On average they'll thus just have 20% fewer spells per day; annoying but hardly all that. I'm also not sure why Undead would run amok; an Evil Cleric can't Rebuke new ones but the ones you've already controlled should remain controlled just fine...and the effect does nothing for Animate Dead control pool nor any Command Undead controlled ones. The Aura of Entropy doesn't touch it either (and neither do the effects of the Crystalline Prison AFAIR).

And yeah, the encounter itself depends. If Lucanther is there, it can be different but even then, the party most likely has the edge in terms of raw actions available. None of the checks are very scary. And from Mental Subjugation, there's only Wisdom damage, which is easy to be immune to on this level (permanent PAO into a construct such as a Marut is a bogstandard defense and makes you immune to everything the hard way in addition to Mind Blank), and if Mind Blank isn't dispelled, they're immune from that too. Thus the Wis damage doesn't take place. Of course, PCs of this level might have other sources of ability damage invulnerability (such as Sheltered Vitality). Which is also why I really don't consider the Dread Wraiths that important; they're mostly doing 2d6 damage since being vulnerable to their ability drain is pretty easy. Whatever the Mind Shard wants to do, it needs to get through the immunities first and it lacks the big nuke intended for this purpose in Disjunction. But yeah, Reality Revision is on the table as is Wish and Miracle. I do think this favours the PCs as they have more actions to cast it.

[Mr Adventurer]

"the monster having Wish tips things in the favour of the PCs" is a new argument on me...!

[Eldariel]

"the monster having Wish tips things in the favour of the PCs" is a new argument on me...!

'cause PCs probably have way more Wishes/Miracles than the monster available... It's one thing where quantity has a quality of its own.

[Mr Adventurer]

'cause PCs probably have way more Wishes/Miracles than the monster available... It's one thing where quantity has a quality of its own.

Right, I get what you're saying, but whether the monster has such powers is irrelevant to whether the PCs do...

[Zecrin]

Is there anything stopping Pandorym from using reality revision to create a rod of cancellation and then touching his prison with it or stopping Lucather Majii from casting disjunction?

Also, and this is somewhat unrelated, but unless you have some way to increase your CL (which is quite easy), would Pandorym's sign prevent the casting of 9th level divine spells because "Divine Spells are cast at a -4 caster level" taken together with "you can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question" from the SRD? I don't think that this is the case, but I'm not entirely sure.

[Blackhawk748]

Is there anything stopping Pandorym from using reality revision to create a rod of cancellation and then touching his prison with it or stopping Lucather Majii from casting disjunction?

Also, and this is somewhat unrelated, but unless you have some way to increase your CL (which is quite easy), would Pandorym's sign prevent the casting of 9th level divine spells because "Divine Spells are cast at a -4 caster level" taken together with "you can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question" from the SRD? I don't think that this is the case, but I'm not entirely sure.

Well if there is a specific way in which to release him then specific trumps general I guess? But even then... Could it be considered an Artifact and as such Lucather doesn't want to lose casting?

Hell, could he just Sphere of Annihilation it?

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... Cloud Chariot would actually be quite useful in a Pandorym campaign, then? Isn't that spell 1 mile/round?

Also, I think the sign also gives a major penalty to turning levels and checks?

[Blackhawk748]

Hmm... Cloud Chariot would actually be quite useful in a Pandorym campaign, then? Isn't that spell 1 mile/round?

Also, I think the sign also gives a major penalty to turning levels and checks?

10 miles per minute, so 100 miles for the full duration. Pretty fast honestly.

[Eldariel]

10 miles per minute, so 100 miles for the full duration. Pretty fast honestly.

Wind Walk is 60 miles per hour so it's 10 times the speed. Both can certainly get you out of there but it takes many hours in either case, which is non-ideal, when Master Earth or Wish or equivalent can do it in 6 seconds (though Wish costs are of course prohibitive over a longer period of time, but probably you'll just go in there and get things sorted out in short order so two castings suffice). Actually, simple Phantom Steed isn't that bad either; 240' per round is 24 miles overland but it can presumably Hustle just fine, which would add up to 48 miles per hour. Though it IS almost 22 hours to travel 1000 miles by Phantom Steed - a long time just to prepare spells.

[Mato]

Hmm... Cloud Chariot would actually be quite useful in a Pandorym campaign, then? You mean other than needing to cast this arcane wu jen exclusive spell to cast it ten times in a row to take an eight hour nap and a one hour prayer meditation so you can cast it another ten times to fly back?

I mean, the entire point of the second encounter is to consume resources and delay you a few rounds so Obligatum VII can get a few freebie hits on the crystal. By the time you return they would have already left, Pandorym would have tried to merge, any deity intervention would have taken place, the campaign world is probably already collapsing, and the DM is giving you funny looks for your campaign wrecking ideas.

What's useful in a Pandorym campaign is a wizard. Lots of them. The encounter is designed it seems to make psions cry, limit divine help, and those weapon destroying constructs with Pandorym's incorporealness seems to be based around your mundane's only usage is to be dominated to attack the rest of the party or dig everyone out after the wizard wins since the tunnel collapses.

[Zecrin]

weapon destroying constructs

Speaking of item destruction, Pandorym seems to be able to do this pretty well with a maximized energy wave.

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. divine casters, what if they try to recover spells in a Rope Trick? Or a Magnificent Mansion? Is there some rule that states how distance should be computed from inside an extradimensional space to a point in normal space? If you can't compute a distance, you probably are not within 1000 miles of Pandorym.

Another trick: is there anything saying you can't recover spells while praying within an Antimagic Field?

[Blackhawk748]

W.r.t. divine casters, what if they try to recover spells in a Rope Trick? Or a Magnificent Mansion? Is there some rule that states how distance should be computed from inside an extradimensional space to a point in normal space? If you can't compute a distance, you probably are not within 1000 miles of Pandorym.

Another trick: is there anything saying you can't recover spells while praying within an Antimagic Field?

The rope trick still has an opening leading to the area in the effect so I don't see why that would stop it. The Mansion is a more interesting question however.

I don't see how an Anti Magic Field is going to stop a Over Diety tier creature's ability.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The rope trick still has an opening leading to the area in the effect so I don't see why that would stop it. The Mansion is a more interesting question however.

I don't see how an Anti Magic Field is going to stop a Over Diety tier creature's ability.
Pandorym is not an overdeity, nor a deity, so those rules don't apply. If Pandorym's sign is (Su), you should be able to recover spells inside an antimagic field.

[Anthrowhale]

I don't see how an Anti Magic Field is going to stop a Over Diety tier creature's ability.
My understanding is that Antimagic Field blocks all Su abilities regardless of what creature generates them.

[Blackhawk748]

Pandorym is not an overdeity, nor a deity, so those rules don't apply. If Pandorym's sign is (Su), you should be able to recover spells inside an antimagic field.

I didn't say it was, I said it was Overdiety Tier, which just means that its moronically powerful


My understanding is that Antimagic Field blocks all Su abilities regardless of what creature generates them.

That just feels strange to me. Why would an Anti Magic field stop Io from smiting a mortal?

[Anthrowhale]

That just feels strange to me. Why would an Anti Magic field stop Io from smiting a mortal?

I don't know about Io, but Divine Enervation is Su and Antimagic Field says:

The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including ... supernatural abilities.

Speaking of which, an easy way to defeat Pandorym is to cast Antimagic Field and walk up to it. As an incorporeal creature, Pandroym's shard winks out according to the Rules Compendium. If you can manage to keep the AMF up for 24 hours, the shard even evaporates on its own.

[StevenC21]

The 'winking out' only applies to incorporeal undead. Pandorym is fine.

[Anthrowhale]

The 'winking out' only applies to incorporeal undead. Pandorym is fine.

Not according to the Rules Compendium.

[Zecrin]

A malefic property is a supernatural ability, intrinsic to the very nature of an elder evil. An antimagic field can suppress its effect within a small area, but doing so requires a successful caster level check (1d20 + caster level) to overcome the elder evil’s spell resistance. Dispel magic and greater dispel magic have no effect against a malefic property.

So you could recoup spells in antimagic field by overcoming what is effectively an SR of 39. Doable for a super optimized caster.


Speaking of which, an easy way to defeat Pandorym is to cast Antimagic Field and walk up to it. As an incorporeal creature, Pandroym's shard winks out according to the Rules Compendium. If you can manage to keep the AMF up for 24 hours, the shard even evaporates on its own.

First and foremost, I would not consider this defeating Pandorym (especially given that Pandorym is a statless, unbeatable creature). Second, I think that a mind shard of Pandorym could potentially counter with an antipsionic field. Third, if the PCs were really using a whole bunch of ridiculous shenanigans, I may just consider having Lucathar go into the prison room to cast disjunction.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Pandorym's one main weakness is using a [force] effect to grapple it. I once played in a Pandorym campaign and used telekinetic maneuver (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/telekineticManeuver.htm) to completely screw up its day on my own -- after the full mind broke free. I then used the anarchic initiate's complete chaotic breach ability to suck it into Limbo and randomly rolled the Spawning Stone for the breach's endpoint.

Ygorl and Ssendam were not happy. They tore the abomination apart, then threw a bunch of chaos energy at me. Things got weird after that.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I didn't say it was, I said it was Overdiety Tier, which just means that its moronically powerful
"Overdeity" means a lot more than just "powerful", and Pandorym has none of the things that make an overdeity an overdeity. When you're dealing with Elder Evils and deities, the kind of power matters much more than the absolute magnitude of the power (just like with spells and caster levels).

[Zecrin]

Pandorym's one main weakness is using a [force] effect to grapple it. I once played in a Pandorym campaign and used telekinetic maneuver to completely screw up its day on my own -- after the full mind broke free. I then used the anarchic initiate's complete chaotic breach ability to suck it into Limbo and randomly rolled the Spawning Stone for the breach's endpoint.

Ygorl and Ssendam were not happy. They tore the abomination apart, then threw a bunch of chaos energy at me. Things got weird after that.

First of all, this sounds really cool. However, since we're discussing how powerful the elder evils are, I feel obligated to point out some of Pandorym's defenses against such tactics. A mindshard of pandorym has access to Freedom of Movement through reality revision, has a high Power Resistance (which applies to telekinetic maneuver), potential power immunity through Antipsionic Field, and a high enough concentration score to always manifest while grappled. Also, according to the Rules Compendium, page 64, incorporeal creatures cannot be grappled and it makes no exception for force effects.

The problem with relying on complete chaotic breach is that Pandorym (with a +39 Will Save) will always make the will save unless he rolls a natural 1, and if this does happen he can just return to the material using the undo misfortune or transport traveler function of reality revision.

This is assuming just a mind shard. The full mind is so powerful you can't win unless your DM intercedes. That said, I think that the way your party dealt with Pandorym is 100% awesome; the elder evils are supposed to be a difficult, climactic, and fun challenge, not a battle between players and the DM over who can win a battle of optimization and attrition.

[Anthrowhale]

So you could recoup spells in antimagic field by overcoming what is effectively an SR of 39. Doable for a super optimized caster.

That's a good find. I believe the SR is only 35? So at caster level 24 you have a 50% chance of suppressing Malefic Su abilities with an AMF.


First and foremost, I would not consider this defeating Pandorym (especially given that Pandorym is a statless, unbeatable creature).
Right, I meant the shard.


Second, I think that a mind shard of Pandorym could potentially counter with an antipsionic field.

Probably you mean Null Psionics Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/nullPsionicsField.htm)? Quite a bit depends on DM interpretation here. Is it equivalent to AMF? In that case, it would be hilarious. "I cast Reality Revision[Null Psionics Field]" <wink out>. If not, I don't see how it helps.


Third, if the PCs were really using a whole bunch of ridiculous shenanigans, I may just consider having Lucathar go into the prison room to cast disjunction.
A DM could certainly change up Lucathar's spells to add a 'you lose' button. However, Lucathar seems to have several 'you win' buttons attached as well. For example, the same Antimagic Field tactic winks out Lucathar.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

First of all, this sounds really cool. However, since we're discussing how powerful the elder evils are, I feel obligated to point out some of Pandorym's defenses against such tactics. A mindshard of pandorym has access to Freedom of Movement through reality revision, has a high Power Resistance (which applies to telekinetic maneuver), potential power immunity through Antipsionic Field, and a high enough concentration score to always manifest while grappled. Also, according to the Rules Compendium, page 64, incorporeal creatures cannot be grappled and it makes no exception for force effects.

The problem with relying on complete chaotic breach is that Pandorym (with a +39 Will Save) will always make the will save unless he rolls a natural 1, and if this does happen he can just return to the material using the undo misfortune or transport traveler function of reality revision.

This is assuming just a mind shard. The full mind is so powerful you can't win unless your DM intercedes. That said, I think that the way your party dealt with Pandorym is 100% awesome; the elder evils are supposed to be a difficult, climactic, and fun challenge, not a battle between players and the DM over who can win a battle of optimization and attrition.The rest of the party had been one-shotted, but I was the only one who escaped by being the only one who didn't have my mind blank dispelled (because I cast it myself, rather than relying on lower level items). I took out Lucather Majii and a mind-shard on my own within 2 rounds, then one-shotted Obligatum Dumbarse, but not before it broke open the prison using a weapon Lucather gave to it. The DM did a workup for a far more powerful version of Pandorym's mind. I tried to hit it with the anarchic initiate's complete chaotic breach, though it did indeed make its save, so I had to wait 1d4 rounds (rolled a 4) for the breach to open on its own. Incorporeal creatures can't make grapple checks, so they auto-fail them whenever something can manage to grapple them, and I abused the crap out of my action economy to make continual grapple checks while using extra standard actions to continually dispel its remanifested freedom of movement powers. (I got really lucky on my rolls.) I had Supernatural Transformation (Psionics), so PR and dispelling didn't apply on my end. It blasted me a few times, too, and I kept throwing out astral construct, greater concealing amorpha, and fog effects to futz with its targeting (and my personal mind blank effect kept me safe from its mind-affecting stuff). Basically, I worked my little psionic arse off, desperately trying to keep it from escaping and ravaging the multiverse. It was a combination of skill and luck that allowed me to hold it off and then shove it in the breach when it opened, and pure luck that A.) the breach opened at the Spawning Stone, and that B.) Ygorl and Ssendam were both there and powerful enough to tear the thing apart.

It was still pretty epic, and the rest of the party kinda just had to watch, since they were all stunned good and hard from a psionic blast (IIRC). My dispels to free the party failed, so there's that.

Definitely tense, for sure.

(As for The Rules Compendium, it is not errata, and it cannot force a group that does not have it to use it.)

[Mato]

(As for The Rules Compendium, it is not errata, and it cannot force a group that does not have it to use it.)Is that GitP's motto?

Just toss your rule books in the closet, that way you don't have to obey them and people can't tell you you're wrong.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is that GitP's motto?

Just toss your rule books in the closet, that way you don't have to obey them and people can't tell you you're wrong.How do you use a book you don't have? Legally?

[Mato]

How do you use a book you don't have? Legally?Seeing how there is no law preventing you from using your knowledge of a book you don't own, I'd guess you just use it. It'd be awfully awkward to fail school and have to quit your career when you are fifty years old because you put your kindergarten books up for sale. :smallwink:

Also have to considered the library? Mine has several of the 3.5 rulebooks and like fifteen of the 5th edition PHBs they picked up as a reading promotion. They are almost always checked out through.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Seeing how there is no law preventing you from using your knowledge of a book you don't own, I'd guess you just use it.

It'd be awfully awkward to fail school and have to quit your career when you are fifty years old because you put your kindergarten books up for sale. :smallsigh:Use a book I don't own and have never read?

That's..."illogical" is a polite way to put it.

My PHB says:


Incorporeal: Having no physical body. Incorporeal creatures are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. They can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, +1 or better magic weapons, spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural effects. Even when struck by spells, magical effects, or magic weapons, however, they have a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. In addition, rogues cannot employ sneak attacks against incorporeal beings, since such opponents have no vital areas to target. An incorporeal creature has no armor or natural armor bonus (or loses any armor or natural armor bonus it may have when corporeal), but it gains a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma modifier or +1, whichever is greater. Such creatures can move in any direction and even pass through solid objects at will, but not through force effects. Therefore, their attacks negate the bonuses provided by natural armor, armor, and shields, but deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against them. Incorporeal creatures have no weight, do not leave footprints, have no scent and make no noise, so they cannot be heard with Listen checks unless they wish it. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage.It says absolutely nothing about grappling. But since Pandorym has no Str score, it cannot make grapple checks (and it can't exactly use the Escape Artist ranks it doesn't have, either). As far as I knew, I'd found its one weakness, and the DM allowed it.

So shush.

[Mato]

Use a book I don't own and have never read?Thanks for shifting the goal posts again. Because when someone tells you what the book says online, you've (probably) read it.

Also, the rules they spoke of is public information.

Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

What isn't public is incorporeal creatures can grapple incorporeal creatures using their charisma modifiers which is on page 143 of libris mortis and no special force exceptions were added in that update either. But now you know about that too!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Thanks for shifting the goal posts again. Because when someone tells you what the book says online, you've (probably) read it.You just told me, yes. But did you tell me that several years ago? That's not how time works.


AlsoI gave you everything my PHB has in the glossary. It is not that. That likely includes errata, or it's possibly a source I wasn't using at the time. The DMG, maybe?

But if my primary source does not say incorporeality precludes grappling, I'm going to trust that grappling is not precluded.

Now stop using illogic and either be useful or go away.

[Mato]

But if my primary sourceYour "primary source" on a monster's incorporeal subtype is and always has been the MM1, not the PHB. LM & the RC are updates.

{scrubbed}

[ExLibrisMortis]

Incorporeal creatures can't make grapple checks, so they auto-fail them whenever something can manage to grapple them [...]
Not to ruin a good story, but this is incorrect. Incorporeal creatures can't make grapple attacks, they can't take any action that physically manipulates their opponent, they cannot be grappled (except by incorporeal creatures, who can grapple eachother normally, using Charisma instead of Strength), and they're not subject to actions that physically manipulate them. However, they can make grapple checks (badly).

Presumably the actions that physically manipulate an opponent include "damage opponent", "escape from grapple", "pin opponent", and "escape pin". That would mean that incorporeal creatures get to make a roll against whatever grapple checks come their way (because you don't have to take an action), but they can't really participate in grappling otherwise. Escape Artist might allow them to escape a grapple, but it might count as "physical manipulation". Of course, a mind shard of Pandorym has +2 on Escape Artist, so it's not exactly likely to work even if allowed.

Oh, and mind shards are Huge, so any Medium or smaller creature automatically fails the check to grapple a mind shard.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Meh. That's how things worked out. Mistakes were made, the multiverse was saved, don't care if our fun came at the expense of rules that were tucked away in a place we didn't think to look.

Bored now. Gonna go do something significantly more interesting.

[Zecrin]

That's a good find. I believe the SR is only 35? So at caster level 24 you have a 50% chance of suppressing Malefic Su abilities with an AMF.

You are correct, the SR is 35 but since the hypothetical involved a divine caster they would be at -4 CL because of the sign, (not that it makes that much difference though).


Probably you mean Null Psionics Field? Quite a bit depends on DM interpretation here. Is it equivalent to AMF? In that case, it would be hilarious. "I cast Reality Revision[Null Psionics Field]" <wink out>. If not, I don't see how it helps.

That's the one! Fortunently, since the mind shard has null psionic field as an PLA, he doesn't have to expend a precious reality revision. The interesting thing is, as far as I can tell, null psionic field has no effect on incorporeal creatures. You are 100% correct that what happens when these effects overlap is up to the DM, because its not necessarily the same situation as when two antimagic fields overlap (discussed in the rules compendium). I imagine though that the vast majority of DMs would rule that the mindshard is not blinked out in this scenario though simply because:

A. This is a reasonable interpretation.
B. This would be very anticlimactic otherwise.


A DM could certainly change up Lucathar's spells to add a 'you lose' button. However, Lucathar seems to have several 'you win' buttons attached as well. For example, the same Antimagic Field tactic winks out Lucathar.

You don't even have to change up his spells; he has disjunction in his spellbook. However, no sane DM would or should ever do this because:

A. The writers of EE obviously didn't intend for this to happen.
B. It would feel SUPER unfair to players.
C. There's no real counterplay.

I would only ever consider this if the players pulled some super optimizer shenanigans (like ice assassin on a deity) to trivialize an otherwise very difficult fight.

The cool thing about Pandorym is that he's a very versatile elder evil. Low-mid optimized full casters and highly optimized tier 3s can be significantly challenged by Pandorym's mind shards. Optimized full casters can be challenged by the customizable full mind. And then the consequences of failure can always be the final form, mind and body together, which can explicitly end the setting.

No matter how I look at it, in the hands of a competent DM, Pandorym can always represent a challenge.

[Anthrowhale]

You are correct, the SR is 35 but since the hypothetical involved a divine caster they would be at -4 CL because of the sign, (not that it makes that much difference though).

A better approach is to have the party wizard cast it with a prayer bead of karma (triggered via Imbue with Spell Ability) and an Orange Ioun stone to hit caster level 25. These are common core buffs at character level 20 which together succeed 55% of the time. With multiple castings (AMF is dismissable) you succeed with high probability. With mild optimization (i.e. arcane mastery) you succeed 100% of the time. With high optimization (i.e. persistomancer initiate of mystra with circle magic) you don't even notice divine enervation.


That's the one! Fortunently, since the mind shard has null psionic field as an PLA, he doesn't have to expend a precious reality revision.

It still seems like a dubious strategy to me. Even in the most favorable interpretation (Null Psionics is not AMF but magic/psionics transparency is on and the AMF is suppressed but not the Null Psionics Field), this strategy still results in Pandorym's shard being unable to use psionics or su abilities which neuters nearly all attack forms.

Obviously, the DM could bend the rules for more drama as you suggest or ignore the RC as MaxiDuRarity suggests.


You don't even have to change up his spells; he has disjunction in his spellbook.

But not in spells memorized, so yes this is some customization.


No matter how I look at it, in the hands of a competent DM, Pandorym can always represent a challenge.
Pandorym is one of the better elder evils and one of the more robust statblocks I've seen---I'm not really trying to rain on Pandorym. At the same time, it's kind of fun to figure out the weaknesses. For example, another spell which gives the mind shard problems is Ghost Trap, an SR:No spell which completely negates incorporeality in a 100' radius.

[Eldariel]

Mind Shard should 100 % have a psionic version of Extraordinary Spell Aim ("Extraordinary Power Aim"), for Null Psionics Field alone (most of its feats are pretty trash anyways). Otherwise it's just kinda silly.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, I missed a lot.

Let's start with the biggie: when I was talking about Cloud Chariot I was talking about a general workaround for "no teleportz for u"; 100 miles in ten minutes should be decent for most things on the same continent.

Also, I'm pretty sure Elder Evils in general was designed for non-epic PCs; it's not like Great Wyrms weren't, after all.

To be honest... I think the Sign of Binding is really obnoxious. It's like the Pandorym campaign was intentionally stacked in favor of non-Conjurer arcanists or something, jeez.

[Eldariel]

Okay, I missed a lot.

Let's start with the biggie: when I was talking about Cloud Chariot I was talking about a general workaround for "no teleportz for u"; 100 miles in ten minutes should be decent for most things on the same continent.

Also, I'm pretty sure Elder Evils in general was designed for non-epic PCs; it's not like Great Wyrms weren't, after all.

To be honest... I think the Sign of Binding is really obnoxious. It's like the Pandorym campaign was intentionally stacked in favor of non-Conjurer arcanists or something, jeez.

Meh. Conjurers still have all their awesome BFC. The school is just that good.

[danielxcutter]

Meh. Conjurers still have all their awesome BFC. The school is just that good.

The Binding Circles(or whatever the precise name was) impede all Conjuration spells(not just those blocked by the Sign) and boost Necromancy spells, but a well optimized Conjurer can probably still make the check easily without even specifically optimizing for that - I mean, don't most people pump Spellcraft, anyways?

[Zecrin]

It still seems like a dubious strategy to me. Even in the most favorable interpretation (Null Psionics is not AMF but magic/psionics transparency is on and the AMF is suppressed but not the Null Psionics Field), this strategy still results in Pandorym's shard being unable to use psionics or su abilities which neuters nearly all attack forms.

Again, totally up to the DM. I personally imagined that the two would cancel each other out. A DM could also interpret the line: "elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned" from the text of antimagic field in such a way that Pandorym would not wink out.


But not in spells memorized, so yes this is some customization.

I definitely don't consider this customization. Lucather is a wizard; he has the ability to change the spells he knows daily, so long as all spells are in his spellbook. He has disjunction in that spell book. He is using a class feature he already has, combined with an item he already has. I suppose you could technically call this customization, but in my mind customization involves things like changing feats, spells/powers known, existing items, and skills.

[Mato]

The Binding Circles(or whatever the precise name was) impede all Conjuration spells(not just those blocked by the Sign) and boost Necromancy spells, but a well optimized Conjurer can probably still make the check easily without even specifically optimizing for that - I mean, don't most people pump Spellcraft, anyways?You mean concentration? There are quite a few things overlaid, getting a little mixed up is kind of expected.

Pandorym's Seal of Binding
All conjuration (calling, summoning, & teleportation) effects fail, divination to contact extraplanar beings fail, divine spellcasters have a 20% chance to fail regaining each spell, then there is a -4 penalty to divine CLs and a -20 penalty to turn/rebuke undead.

The Prison Complex's Aura of Entropy
Natural healing is disabled, turn/rebuke's duration is halved, -4 on saves against permanent level loss, anyone that dies gets reanimated as vampires/ghouls in 1d4 rounds and there is a 10% chance the mind and body reanimated separately giving you two undead creatures.

The Prison Complex's Outer Circle's Binding
Necromancy is auto-extended, all conjuration spells required a DC 30+level concentration check or fail.

The Prison Complex's Inner Circle's Binding (it adds to the outer circle)
Necromancy is also auto-empowered, undead gain turn resistance +8, all conjuration (calling, summoning, & teleportation) effects fail which is sort of redundant during the encounter given the sign's effect.

Lucather's Intercession
Targets a specific divine spellcaster, they cannot cast spells or turn/rebuke undead for one minute. If their divine caster level is 11 or lower, the duration is twenty four hours.

Lucather's Unsettling Enchantment
-2 attack & AC for one round even if you save against Lucather's enchantment spells.

Obligatum VII's Mind over Magic
Twice per day as a free action he can reflect any targeted spell cast at him (as spell turning).

Pandorym's Psionic Draw
Manifesting requires a DC 15+level concentration check or costs twice as many power points.

Pandorym's Divine Enervation
Divine spellcasters within 1,000 miles cannot regain spells.

Pandorym's Divinity Siphon
If you have a divine caster level, he can link with you for up to one minute dealing 1d4 negative levels and healing 20hp per round if you fail a DC 48 will save.

Pandorym's Telepathic Backlash
Casting telepathy/enchantment on Pandorym hits you with feeblemind (dc 48) potentially negating your spellcasting.

Pandorym's Mental Subjugation
Every round you need to make a DC 48 save against dominate, on success you take one point of wisdom damage.

Pandorym's Corporealize
Not really an aura or effect, but Pandorym can have up to twelve tentacles with 15ft reach which he should be able to full attack with as all other natural weapons can. At +50 incorpereal touch it's not going to miss, deals 1d6 & +2 per divine caster level which means a 20th level cleric or druid takes a bit over forty damage per hit.

Spells/Powers
Both Lucather & Pandorym can provide crowd controlling effects in addition to all of this. They both also have dark whispers, Lucather's staggers everyone with less than 23HD (confuses if more) and DC 24 will negs while Pandorym's goes up to 50HD and is DC 48. Lucather & Obligatum VII also have bonuses on saves against divine spells.

Supersize Me
The supplement notes Lucather has access to disjunction, time stop, & prismatic wall allowing him to break critical magical items and protect Obligatum VII while he chips at the prison. Pandorym also has 20,000xp he can spend on reality revision & bend reality allowing the DM to copy the party's attempt to optimize using spell/power based tricks.
The good news is XP is adjusted to 125% for the encounter's circumstances.

[danielxcutter]

Oh yeah, right. Still, Concentration is another skill most spellcasters boost out the roof... max ranks on a 20th-level character is +23, with 14 base Constitution and an Amulet of Health +6 that goes up to +28. That's a 50% chance of making the check for a 9th-level spell, without additional boosts - and remember, skill checks are apparently really easy to boost out the stratosphere.

[GeminiVeil]

Hope this is on topic enough where I don't have to start a new thread. If so, I will do that.
Noticed Zargon had an attack option listed as 'Epic Strike'. I can't find this ability anywhere. Checked the Epic level handbook and the same book Zargon is in, and can't find it.
Anyone know where this ability is located? Book and Page number if possible. Thanks!

[HouseRules]

Hope this is on topic enough where I don't have to start a new thread. If so, I will do that.
Noticed Zargon had an attack option listed as 'Epic Strike'. I can't find this ability anywhere. Checked the Epic level handbook and the same book Zargon is in, and can't find it.
Anyone know where this ability is located? Book and Page number if possible. Thanks!

A change in the DR system.
+1 to +5 are all "Magic Strike", bypasses DR/Magic or DR X/+1 to DR X/+5 (from 3.0 ear games)
+6 to +10 are all "Epic Strike", bypasses DR/Epic or DR X/+6 to DR X/+10 (from 3.0 era games)

[Mr Adventurer]

It's not a separate attack - it's noting that Zargon's weapons count as Epic magical weapons for the purposes of overcoming DR.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... How do you manage not to lose a PC each round, with that positively ridiculous attack routine? The best I can think of is Stoneskin + Greater Blink, but that's not easy to get on everyone, especially at the level you're supposed to fight Zargon?