What would balance Simulacrum?

[Endarire]

Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) is a tricky spell and not just since it's an Illusion. This spell seemingly has no fair balance point if taken at RAW. (Needing to have a copy of the target's toenails or body parts isn't a limiting factor when these things are available freely and infinitely in every spell component pouch. Also, see Eschew Materials.)

The soonest a Wizard can cast this spell from spell slots is 13. This is after the point that Genies and Solars become available to copy. Want a wish or more every day? Go ahead! Remember, wish pays for the EXP and body part costs of simulacrum.

And those are just some off=the-top-of-my-head core examples. Outside core, things can get even more extreme with using lesser planar binding to get some Mirror Mephits (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits) who have simulacrum 1/day at CL8 as a spell-like ability (which bypasses the body part and EXP requirements) to make sims of Efreet, lesser Angels, Artificers, and so on.

Baldur's Gate II treated simulacrum like a controllable, possibly equippable self-clone with fewer HD/levels than you. I'd prefer not to change/reintrepret simulacrum to be that limiting (which can still be powerful).

What say you?

Thankee!

[AmeVulpes]

And those are just some off=the-top-of-my-head core examples. Outside core, things can get even more extreme with using lesser planar binding to get some Mirror Mephits (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits) who have simulacrum 1/day at CL8 as a spell-like ability (which bypasses the body part and EXP requirements) to make sims of Efreet, lesser Angels, Artificers, and so on.

May be just a minor point, but the wording of Simulacrum-

At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command.-may make it less useful to have a Planar Bound creature make one, since the Sim, at that point, wouldn't be bound to you.

I know PB can have absurdly broken durations, but assuming a non-insane DM and normal gameplay, a killed PB servant would break your chain of command.

DM is also probably free to assign arbitrary GP costs to high-HD monster parts, but that's likely not relevant to a thread like this.

EDIT: inb4 "you can just tell the PB creature to command the sim to serve you," yep, I hadn't thought of that. Whoops.

[Crake]

Needing to have a copy of the target's toenails or body parts isn't a limiting factor when these things are available freely and infinitely in every spell component pouch. Also, see Eschew Materials.

Simulacrum as a spell has no means of knowing what you're trying to copy without the body part. If you omit it somehow, then it just flat out doesn't work, since you're effectively creating a simulacrum of nothing, so eschew materials doesn't work.

As for the claim that a part of every monster is freely available in a spell component pouch, I'd like to see you convince a DM that those rare and exotic monster parts have a market value less than 1gp.

[Selion]

The same way Pathfinder dealt with polymorph spells:
- fixed number of hd
- fixed stats depending on size
- a limited number of abilities included in the spell
In addition, just a limited number of simulacra should be controllable at the same time

[Jack_Simth]

Step 1: Limit how many you can have at once to match your primary casting ability score modifier (edit: Was 1, but with the below, not so needed)
Step 2: Anything that would have an XP component if it were a spell has that xp drained from whoever controls the sim (so if your efreeti sim is to grant three wishes, you need to cough up 15k xp - more for magic item making)
Step 3: Anything that would have an expensive material or focus component if it was a spell must have that component provided to the sim for it to use the ability
Step 5: If the sim has less than double the HD of the effective spell level of the effect in question, then it can't use it (so a sim of an efreeti isn't going to use Wish, unless it's a sim of a 38 HD efreeti....).
Step 6: One sim cannot control another.

[Cosi]

One suggestion I saw somewhere that I thought was interesting was to make the simulacrum the spell creates a particular kind of creature with fixed stats. It gets a suite of illusion magic, and it uses that to emulate whatever creature you attempt to copy. I think that works fairly well, but whether that's an acceptable solution obviously depends on what you see the core function of the spell as.

[Duke of Urrel]

When you create a shadow creature with the Simulacrum spell, you add no +10 bonus to your Disguise check. This is clear from the rules.

The following text is also significant.

A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.


Why should this text matter if a simulacrum, just like the original creature that it copies, can heal its own damage naturally and can be healed by Cure spells, like any other creature? I have house rules that make this text matter.

Like any other creature, a simulacrum has a soul. However:

1. I make it a house rule that any creature that you create (not call or summon or transmute) with a spell of less than the ninth level can only be quasi-alive, not actually alive, and:

2. I make it a house rule that the creature must be an Undead if the spell you use to create it belongs to the Necromancy school or a Construct if the spell belongs to any other school.

(I apply these rules to the Phantom Steed spell as well as the Simulacrum spell.)

From my house rules, it follows that a simulacrum can only be a Construct. Therefore, it cannot heal its own damage or to be healed by any Conjuration spell of the Healing subschool, regardless of whether it has a Constitution score or not. I allow it only to be repaired following the description of the Simulacrum spell itself: "A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum," and it cannot regain lost Hit Points any other way.

[King of Nowhere]

The healing part does nothing if you make a simulacrum for sla. An efreeti can still cast wish for you if you don't limit that.
I think the suggestion that you have to pay any xp cost of a spell that your simulacra gets as a spell like ability is a good one

EDIT: regarding material component, i would not allow it to work with eschew components, because body parts of powerful monsters are bound to nave a price.
However, asking a sentient monster to give you some nail clippings for an adequate payment should not be too difficult. It's basically free money for it.

[Jack_Simth]

The healing part does nothing if you make a simulacrum for sla. An efreeti can still cast wish for you if you don't limit that.
I think the suggestion that you have to pay any xp cost of a spell that your simulacra gets as a spell like ability is a good one

EDIT: regarding material component, i would not allow it to work with eschew components, because body parts of powerful monsters are bound to nave a price.
However, asking a sentient monster to give you some nail clippings for an adequate payment should not be too difficult. It's basically free money for it.
That depends on whether or not it knows about spells like Demand or Ice Assasin. Would you knowingly part with fingernail clippings if you knew that at some point it meant someone could very well mess up your head from the other side of the planet?

[Bronk]

Like any other creature, a simulacrum has a soul. However:


We find out in 'Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk' that simulacrums don't have souls.

If I was going to rework the spell, I'd make sure to specify the following things:

1: You're not making a real creature, it would be an illusion that's also a construct. I'd add that it could be controlled with a Rod of Construct Control as well, but with some kind of opposed roll with the creator's stats at the time of creation.

2: The only way to gain hit points is that expensive and time consuming process, healing magic wouldn't work.

3: Not having a soul would be mentioned in the spell.

4: I'd add a note specifying that Eschew Materials doesn't work, and also that usable parts from more powerful people and monsters have more worth (to be determined by the DM based on personal and political power). Also, maybe there's a freshness factor and a spellcraft check involved so people can't make simulacrums using old dragonhide armor or whatever. (Edit: You know what? Maybe I'd also change the body part from a material component to a focus.)

5: I'd put a HD cap of the caster's caster level or lower instead of twice caster level. (Edit: Perhaps spellcasting ability should always be halved separately as well.)

6: I'd put in a mention that making simulacrums of powerful people and monsters can be dangerous if the original finds out.

7: I'd add another spellcraft check with a higher DC to get more - but not all - of the original's memories to prevent the spell from being used as a perfect interrogation tool, but still have a chance to superficially fool people who know the original.

8: I'd specify that the ice/snow body has to be life sized, and that if any parts are removed from the simulacrum, they revert to ice/snow.

9: I'd specify that they don't need to eat or breath, but can fake it.

10: I'd specify that they don't age, and can't sire children or get pregnant, but that might change if they get a soul.

[Quertus]

Well, first, you'd need to make it free, like it was back in 2e. This will help balance out the floor use cases. Then... I like the idea of the controller paying XP costs, to balance the ceiling. Those sound like the two most important steps, IMO.

What else? Hmmm... Maybe give the caster a permanent penalty while they control the Simulacrum, like -1 HP, to keep them from creating an infinite army (like they could in 2e), but not make them pay for Simulacra that have been destroyed (Worst. Consumable. Ever.). Make explicit that the Simulacrum can, say, remember things, rather than "who are you?" "I'm Bob." "OK, who are you?" "I told you, I'm Bob." "OK, who are you?" "... Must be a Simulacrum."

Let's keep raising the floor & lowering the ceiling. Let's make it explicit that they can heal, regenerate, etc. But force them to have a focus (50*cost) for any expensive powers (that can be included in the price of creation, if desired).

Next up, let's give a set price for creature body parts, so that they aren't available in a spell component pouch - but are available at every thorp and village. Oh, and let's give "snow" a pricetag, too, just for completeness.

Let's do some world-building, and assume that this spell has been a known thing for hundreds or thousands of years. Let's add blood-collecting swords (+1k for the basic model, more for XD space or preserving features; handy for many purposes, including to feed vampires, or to power other blood-based weapon powers we'll add). To balance that, we'll create things like "sanitizing" and "bloodless" defensive enchantments (sanitizing (+1k) renders all pieces of the individual not count as part of the individual once that leave their person; bloodless (much pricier) only prevents blood (not hair or nail clippings), but also auto stabilizes, and prevents blood drain).

Lastly, to continue the world-building, we'll need laws regarding the personhood / legal status of uncontrolled Simulacra, and new templates/feats, like "Ice in the blood", for descendants of Simulacra.

Or we could just gentleman's agreement balance it at the table.

[Hackulator]

Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) is a tricky spell and not just since it's an Illusion. This spell seemingly has no fair balance point if taken at RAW. (Needing to have a copy of the target's toenails or body parts isn't a limiting factor when these things are available freely and infinitely in every spell component pouch. Also, see Eschew Materials.)

Sorry but any wizard who makes this argument at one of my tables about things like this or claiming you can have a piece of a god for ice assassin from your spell component pouch cause it technically has no gold piece value gets thrown out the window. I've literally never met any player in real life who has tried this inanity and have only ever heard anyone try to make this argument here.

[ericgrau]

Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) is a tricky spell and not just since it's an Illusion. This spell seemingly has no fair balance point if taken at RAW. (Needing to have a copy of the target's toenails or body parts isn't a limiting factor when these things are available freely and infinitely in every spell component pouch. Also, see Eschew Materials.)

The soonest a Wizard can cast this spell from spell slots is 13. This is after the point that Genies and Solars become available to copy. Want a wish or more every day? Go ahead! Remember, wish pays for the EXP and body part costs of simulacrum.

And those are just some off=the-top-of-my-head core examples. Outside core, things can get even more extreme with using lesser planar binding to get some Mirror Mephits (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits) who have simulacrum 1/day at CL8 as a spell-like ability (which bypasses the body part and EXP requirements) to make sims of Efreet, lesser Angels, Artificers, and so on.

Baldur's Gate II treated simulacrum like a controllable, possibly equippable self-clone with fewer HD/levels than you. I'd prefer not to change/reintrepret simulacrum to be that limiting (which can still be powerful).

What say you?

Thankee!

but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)
The thing with monsters is figuring out what special abilities a half HD angel or genie should have. Just because it doesn't say doesn't mean you can presume all the abilities any more than you could presume none of the abilities. Or presume that monsters with too few HD for what they are simply can't exist, another possibility. So you're pretty much forced to guess. Most likely to get high level abilities you'll need to start with a base creature with double the HD of the one you want. Or double the HD of the minimum caster level for the SLA you want.

What's more is that toenail clippings aren't just for simulacrum. Besides the direct danger of someone who looks like you causing trouble, it puts the target in danger from scry, nightmare and other spells. Something every high level creature should be prepared against. So you better believe most are either already burning their toenail and hair clippings, or have already fallen victim to a nasty scry. And then if they survived, are burning their toenail and hair clippings. Or they heard of a friend who was scryed on, etc., etc. Those that never caught are in much more danger from scry than simulacrum.

It's also not fair to assume toenail clippings from a powerful creature have no gp value just because they have no listed price, for any related shenanigans like creating the toenails.

But let's say if you look around a bit you can find a naive creature with nearly twice your HD, so you can abuse simulacrum. He's probably surrounded by the like, or at least involved in some activity fitting his level. Most creatures aren't sitting on their hands. The mere presence of such a creature risks instant death, if nothing else then from collateral damage or the type of environment they inhabit. Find me a CR 30-40 creature isolated from exposure to spellcasters, whom you can just walk up to and ask for his toenail clippings. Or otherwise easily obtain them.

But lets say you're the 1-2% who attempts it and doesn't die. What creature do you find and can you hide unnoticed long enough to to abuse his abilities for wealth or some such? Without using abilities that cost him xp? In a way that someone couldn't have already destroyed the multiverse from someone enslaving and farming the original creature, due to a system problem with that creature? Genies for example are a system problem all by themselves, the moment you can travel to the plane of air and are strong enough to capture one. Simulacrum on a double HD genie actually seems like the much harder way to do it.

More likely abuse is from finding a creature near your level, getting toenails or hair from him somehow, and abusing a creature of roughly half your level with endless servitude. Bringing him into combat is usually too dangerous, even if only for support spells. Crafting magic items costs xp so he can't do that (you need spare xp to spend by the rules, and simulacrum can't advance). But maybe he could toil endlessly in some other activity, perhaps something that makes a little downtime money. But even though that's "omg free wealth", so is all downtime employment, or simply crafting magic items for that matter. I think for the most part whatever is done with him is fair.

[King of Nowhere]

That depends on whether or not it knows about spells like Demand or Ice Assasin. Would you knowingly part with fingernail clippings if you knew that at some point it meant someone could very well mess up your head from the other side of the planet?

well, a simulacrum of me has half hit dice, so it's much weaker than i am and it does not worry me.
Ice assassin and demand, however, are another matter.
ultimately, though, if the price was right and i was reasonably certain this guy doesn't want to mess with me specifically, I'd go through with it.

[unseenmage]

The resident rules guru at our table suggested to simply change the material spell component to a focus component.


The same way Pathfinder dealt with polymorph spells:
...
One of my primary complaints with PF was that Simulacrum didn't get the Polymorph treatment.

[Quertus]

The thing with monsters is figuring out what special abilities a half HD angel or genie should have. Just because it doesn't say doesn't mean you can presume all the abilities any more than you could presume none of the abilities. Or presume that monsters with too few HD for what they are simply can't exist, another possibility. So you're pretty much forced to guess. Most likely to get high level abilities you'll need to start with a base creature with double the HD of the one you want. Or double the HD of the minimum caster level for the SLA you want.

What's more is that toenail clippings aren't just for simulacrum. Besides the direct danger of someone who looks like you causing trouble, it puts the target in danger from scry, nightmare and other spells. Something every high level creature should be prepared against. So you better believe most are either already burning their toenail and hair clippings, or have already fallen victim to a nasty scry. And then if they survived, are burning their toenail and hair clippings. Or they heard of a friend who was scryed on, etc., etc. Those that never caught are in much more danger from scry than simulacrum.

It's also not fair to assume toenail clippings from a powerful creature have no gp value just because they have no listed price, for any related shenanigans like creating the toenails.

But let's say if you look around a bit you can find a naive creature with nearly twice your HD, so you can abuse simulacrum. He's probably surrounded by the like, or at least involved in some activity fitting his level. Most creatures aren't sitting on their hands. The mere presence of such a creature risks instant death, if nothing else then from collateral damage or the type of environment they inhabit. Find me a CR 30-40 creature isolated from exposure to spellcasters, whom you can just walk up to and ask for his toenail clippings. Or otherwise easily obtain them.

But lets say you're the 1-2% who attempts it and doesn't die. What creature do you find and can you hide unnoticed long enough to to abuse his abilities for wealth or some such? Without using abilities that cost him xp? In a way that someone couldn't have already destroyed the multiverse from someone enslaving and farming the original creature, due to a system problem with that creature? Genies for example are a system problem all by themselves, the moment you can travel to the plane of air and are strong enough to capture one. Simulacrum on a double HD genie actually seems like the much harder way to do it.

More likely abuse is from finding a creature near your level, getting toenails or hair from him somehow, and abusing a creature of roughly half your level with endless servitude. Bringing him into combat is usually too dangerous, even if only for support spells. Crafting magic items costs xp so he can't do that (you need spare xp to spend by the rules, and simulacrum can't advance). But maybe he could toil endlessly in some other activity, perhaps something that makes a little downtime money. But even though that's "omg free wealth", so is all downtime employment, or simply crafting magic items for that matter. I think for the most part whatever is done with him is fair.

1) I agree, half HD & corresponding abilities needs to be clarified. My proposed fixes:

For class levels, it's easy: a Simulacrum of a Wizard 20 casts as a Wizard 10.

For monster HD, a Simulacrum of a 20 HD dragon only gets 10 HD of BAB & saving throws. It's breath weapon 6 Frightful Presence DCs are calculated for 10 HD, not 20.

Because the Simulacrum of the ancient Wizard king doesn't look younger, the Simulacrum of the Dragon doesn't, either. The dragon has all attacks, size, speed, and reach of a 20 HD Dragon. And the full breath weapon size/damage, SR, etc.

Ignore savage species progression. No "air breathing mermaids" problems allowed.

Also, this works for mixed HD: a Simulacrum of a Dragon 20 / Ur-Priest 6 looks the same as the original, has 20-HD abilities with DCs scaled to 10 HD, and casts as an Ur-Priest 3.

In short, you get the full abilities of the physical form, with HD-based calculations like save DC recalculated for reduced HD. Anything trained, you get half HD worth, paralleling the Simulacrum knowing half what the original did.

2) 30-40 HD <> CR 30-40.

3) yeah, someone hocking their wares with cries of "pieces of the king for sale" "make a Simulacrum your rival for less than a GP" sounds sketchy.

4) I love the idea of DLoC, god of Constructs, undercutting the thriving toenail clippings market, just giving his toenail clippings away for free. What are people going to do, make constructs, which fall under his portfolio? EDIT: I guess he'd earn the enmity of the god of Commerce.