Scaling non-damage cantrips

[Skylivedk]

Hello dear Playground,

I've been playing around with the thought of scaling non-damage cantrips pretty much just like damage cantrips: double the earth/water manipulated by Mold Earth/Shape Water, 2 x 5 ft illusions (or two points of sound origin) for minor illusion, etc.

The idea was to have the cantrips that encourage creative uses maintain relative value compared to the yawn-worthy damage spammers. Will it break the game in a thousand pieces in a way I haven't imagined? The other point was to allow the spell-casters who prefer to do control to do that more or less all the time.

On a related note, one of my two current DMs wants to give Druidcraft to Rangers and Thaumaturgy to Paladins. Thoughts? (he was talking about Create Bonfire/Thorn Whip as well which I've mostly talked him out of).

[Crucius]

While I like the idea, I get the feeling some spells get a bit weird if this is ruled in; two mage hands? What do blade ward and true strike do when doubled? Normally those spells aren't very good, but depending on the new ruling they may become a very strong pick.

As for Mold Earth/Control Flames/Shape Water/Prestidigitation, how would they double? Two effects at once? Larger areas? Or more non-instantaneous effects at one time?

Not bashing your idea here, just asking some critical questions. I'll be watching this thread carefully because I like the idea very much.

[Justin Sane]

You might be interested in this: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/8ihb8a/evolving_cantrips_v20_the_unique_levelscaling/

As for free Thaumaturgy/Druidcraft - sure, why not. I actually give those out for free (plus Prestidigitation) as part of the proficiencies in Religion/Nature/Arcana.

[Skylivedk]

You might be interested in this: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/8ihb8a/evolving_cantrips_v20_the_unique_levelscaling/

As for free Thaumaturgy/Druidcraft - sure, why not. I actually give those out for free (plus Prestidigitation) as part of the proficiencies in Religion/Nature/Arcana.

This is an interesting take. Maybe a bit too complex for my liking compared to simply saying twice, thrice and four times the effect wherever applicable.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Not bashing your idea here, just asking some critical questions. I'll be watching this thread carefully because I like the idea very much.
Same--it's a good idea, but you'll probably need to go spell-by-spell rather than a broad ruling

For things like Minor Illusion and Shape Water, I'd be hesitant to allow extra instances-- instead, I'd look at increasing the area of effect.
Mage Hand seems easy enough; just increase the weight it can manipulate.
I'm not sure what the best way to handle the "give you advantage" cantrips is; maybe at 5th/11th/17th they also give you a +1 to your check? That would work for Guidance and Resistance, too.
Similarly, Blade Ward could maybe reduce damage by a flat amount (1d4?) after the resistance?
The Prestigitation set is the really puzzling one, I think. They already boil down to "do anything as long as it's just fluffy;" adding actual power to that seems... iffy.


As for Paladin/Ranger cantrips, I already give 'em two of their choice from the Cleric/Druid list, so I say follow your bliss.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm probably voicing an unpopular opinion, but I think that they already scale. In social/RP moments, there generally isn't a time constraint or initiative that forces you to work at maximum efficiency. The level 1 mage casting Mage Hand can pick up a key needed to get them out of their cell, and the level 15 mage casting the same spell can jiggle the door handle to a trapped door and avoid 6d6 damage.

Both powerful, in their own way. Damage NEEDS to scale, because that's the major difference between levels in 5e. Higher level creatures gain health, so other higher level creatures deal more damage. However, utility effects, like those that come from Mage Hand or Prestidigitation, are always effective at any level. Sure, you have more tools at higher levels, but those are expensive. Rather than having to take Telekinesis, you can afford to use Mage Hand and a different spell.

[Pex]

You need to be careful the cantrips don't become more powerful than 1st level spells. Some of the damage Cantrips already do more damage than Chromatic Orb at 11th level.

[Crucius]

I'm probably voicing an unpopular opinion, but I think that they already scale. In social/RP moments, there generally isn't a time constraint or initiative that forces you to work at maximum efficiency. The level 1 mage casting Mage Hand can pick up a key needed to get them out of their cell, and the level 15 mage casting the same spell can jiggle the door handle to a trapped door and avoid 6d6 damage.

On the contrary, I think they only get worse. The higher level you become, sacrificing an action will become increasingly more risky (in combat at least). Outside of combat I feel that the ubiquity of spell slots later on mean that low level utility spells become favorable to these kinds of cantrips, without 'wasting' much resources. With the increase in epicness that a character gets the higher level they become (think of the Wizard's spell mastery feature (maybe this is a poor analogy because it is a major feature of the wizard class)), I think these cantrips could use a bump to make them feel a little bit more epic at those levels.

[Mr. Crowbar]

On the contrary, I think they only get worse. The higher level you become, sacrificing an action will become increasingly more risky (in combat at least).

Gotta agree. I used Vicious Mockery a ton in the tier 1 levels, but it got useless when every monster gained multiattack. I've asked the DM if he would increase the disadvantage rider to a # of attacks equal to the dice rolled, but he won't, so now I just use Mockery in social situations to dish out emotional damage.

for the more fluffy cantrips, maybe a single boost at level 11 would suffice? like a boost to duration or area of effect. Maybe minor illusion could create tiny creatures or double up on visual/sound. Maybe True Strike and Blade Ward could become bonus actions.

[Guy Lombard-O]

You need to be careful the cantrips don't become more powerful than 1st level spells. Some of the damage Cantrips already do more damage than Chromatic Orb at 11th level.

Wow, that's weird! I'd have sworn that when I checked this thread before, somebody else had already expressed concern that the cantrips not outperform actual spells (1st level ones), and that another person then pointed out that the damage cantrips actually outperform 1st level damage spells by tier 3. Maybe somebody deleted their posts?

Anyhow, back when I got stuck DMing, I wrote up a bunch of improved scalable cantrips for the non-damage group. But I made sure to limit the scaling to mostly minor aspects (e.g. Message got another 60' range per tier, Mending got another 1' of mending per tier, Light got an hour of extended duration per tier, etc.). Some of them might actually make the cantrip a good bit more useful (fix that boulder-hole in the ship's side!), but mostly it probably amounted to fluff (how long do you need that Light to last?).

[Skylivedk]

I'm probably voicing an unpopular opinion, but I think that they already scale. In social/RP moments, there generally isn't a time constraint or initiative that forces you to work at maximum efficiency. The level 1 mage casting Mage Hand can pick up a key needed to get them out of their cell, and the level 15 mage casting the same spell can jiggle the door handle to a trapped door and avoid 6d6 damage.

Both powerful, in their own way. Damage NEEDS to scale, because that's the major difference between levels in 5e. Higher level creatures gain health, so other higher level creatures deal more damage. However, utility effects, like those that come from Mage Hand or Prestidigitation, are always effective at any level. Sure, you have more tools at higher levels, but those are expensive. Rather than having to take Telekinesis, you can afford to use Mage Hand and a different spell.

I follow your point which is why I started this thread. That being said, would it break something if Mage Hand could carry 5/10/15/20 lbs depending on level? My feeling is no. Not at all.


You need to be careful the cantrips don't become more powerful than 1st level spells. Some of the damage Cantrips already do more damage than Chromatic Orb at 11th level.

Which ones do you have in mind? I think for prestidigitation, I'd use the nicely presented home brew from earlier (and probably also for true strike age a few others). For Mold Earth and Shape Water, I'd allow double the volumes. For Light either double the lights, range or duration (and probably one of the first two). I'm ok with chromatic orb being out damaged at one point. I'd rather see Silent Image and Grease anyway (though it's probably more Shield and Absorb Elements).

I'm not so afraid of a Minor Illusion stealing the Thunder due to Silent Image being able to move. I do like that having multiple instances of Minor Illusion makes the Illusionist significantly more interesting at level 5 and since the two can work in conjunction, a buff to Minor Illusion is likely also a buff to Silent Image.

[Pex]

Which ones do you have in mind? I think for prestidigitation, I'd use the nicely presented home brew from earlier (and probably also for true strike age a few others). For Mold Earth and Shape Water, I'd allow double the volumes. For Light either double the lights, range or duration (and probably one of the first two). I'm ok with chromatic orb being out damaged at one point. I'd rather see Silent Image and Grease anyway (though it's probably more Shield and Absorb Elements).

I'm not so afraid of a Minor Illusion stealing the Thunder due to Silent Image being able to move. I do like that having multiple instances of Minor Illusion makes the Illusionist significantly more interesting at level 5 and since the two can work in conjunction, a buff to Minor Illusion is likely also a buff to Silent Image.

Minor Illusion being able to move within its 5 ft area should be fine, but increasing the area or giving it visual and audio will trump Silent Image as well as infringe upon Illusionists. Prestidigitation might be ok having more than 3 effects at a time, but trinkets created shouldn't become tool use worthy. Mage Hand should never become as useful or better than Unseen Servant, so be careful about increasing weight capacity or how many you can have at a time. Each cantrip needs to be evaluated individually.