OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Fyraltari]

Such selflessness. It would bring a tear to my eye.

Looks like the Exarch transitionned into his new position seamlessly.

[Larre Gannd]

New comic is up.

Wow! In one comic, out the next.

(In terms of the cool helper dwarf)

[Resileaf]

RIP long-suffering daughter. Your presence was short, but appreciated.

[Ruck]

Hmm, mechanically I wonder if they failed to dominate her or just decided she wasn't important enough to even try. It looks like they dominated the other bodyguard.

It's only the three vampires, right? The Ex-Exarch, the nameless one he took with him, and the one who fled the other battle.

[Gwynfrid]

The vampires unlive for their ideals. Highly commendable.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hmm, mechanically I wonder if they failed to dominate her or just decided she wasn't important enough to even try.

The latter, I think. She doesn't get a vote and doesn't carry a weapon, so her use to the vampires is nil.

Grey Wolf

[Bluepaw]

No Lives Matter

[Fyraltari]

RIP long-suffering daughter. Your presence was short, but appreciated.

I think she got the honorable death she’d have wanted. And in any case she is free from hearing her mother’s ranting.

[LtPowers]

Man, I hate these guys.


Powers &8^]

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Man, I hate these guys.

I quite like them. They're efficient and competent. Their defeat will be all the more earnt because of that.

Grey Wolf

[Lord Raziere]

Such selflessness. It would bring a tear to my eye.

Looks like the Exarch transitionned into his new position seamlessly.

and thus I was right about this follower dwarf actually being pretty bossy all along and thus carries out his new position in this far more efficiently and actively than V-Durkon ever did.

one wonders if Hel screwed herself over by constantly choosing dwarves that were truly obedient and thus lacked initiative or the will to command people themselves....

[zimmerwald1915]

Something something equal distribution of misery, we get it :smallannoyed:

[Khay]

One wonders if Kubota's obscure prestige class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html) would grant resistance to domination effects as well. Not that it would have helped much, mind.

[Resileaf]

and thus I was right about this follower dwarf actually being pretty bossy all along and thus carries out his new position in this far more efficiently and actively than V-Durkon ever did.

one wonders if Hel screwed herself over by constantly choosing dwarves that were truly obedient and thus lacked initiative or the will to command people themselves....

Most of the Ex-Arch's scenes are entirely about him being completely subservient to Greg.
I'm not sure you can call him as having iniative. :smalltongue:

Plus you can't call Greg as lacking initiative in the many plans he created in the course of his story.

[endiku]

Ohh - it's almost a political statement :smallcool:

thanks giant!

[JennTora]

Hm... this feels like a hint at why Durkula's mission "justifies everything thank you very much," but I'm not understanding why just yet, so at least we know it's not too late.

[Rinion]

The Exarch is truly the John Lennon of our time.

[Fyraltari]

Shouldn’t it be ‘guards, defend my...’?


and thus I was right about this follower dwarf actually being pretty bossy all along and thus carries out his new position in this far more efficiently and actively than V-Durkon ever did.
Durkon* wasn’t efficient enough for you?


one wonders if Hel screwed herself over by constantly choosing dwarves that were truly obedient and thus lacked initiative or the will to command people themselves....
She works with what she’s given, she doesn’t have enough minions to choose.
Also Durkon* had a lot of initiative I think.

[Herr Doktor]

The Exarch -- showing once again how to manipulate language to justify his agenda.

[closetotaku]

So sad for the daughter...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Shouldn’t it be ‘guards, defend my...’?

Not necessarily. She might not have grasped the seriousness of the situation and expected one guard to be enough. Or the other is just a trainee or something and doesn't get ordered directly, just follows the other's lead.

Grey Wolf

[DaOldeWolf]

Disgusting! Poor dwarf, I just hope the casualties dont keep increasing before the Order can come to help.

[warmachine]

I always thought everyone in medieval societies carried weapons of some sort, even if it's just a small knife. And that would apply more so in a world with lots of monsters. Especially if you're rich enough to afford bodyguards.

[zimmerwald1915]

I always thought everyone in medieval societies carried weapons of some sort, even if it's just a small knife. And that would apply more so in a world with lots of monsters. Especially if you're rich enough to afford bodyguards.
It isn't a medieval society, it's a parody of stereotypical fantasy dwarf society.

Also, weapons weren't just allowed in medieval cities (specifically cities, not the countryside) - they were mandatory. For men.

[Fyraltari]

I count six dominated council guards on the stairs, four by the gateway and two bodyguards. That makes at least twelve innocent expendable meatshields/hostages for the vampires. That’s not good.
Also, the etymological discussion is kind of real world correct, so that’s amusing.

[Psyren]

This is a solid demonstration of why the rules are crappy to begin with - because the evil gods actively want to make them even worse, and in the spirit of true compromise we end up with a system that nobody is happy with. Evil gods existing is a point I think a lot of the "but this system isn't fair!" crowd fails to grasp.


No Lives Matter

Good summary of Hel's campaign :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

This is a solid demonstration of why the rules are crappy to begin with - because the evil gods actively want to make them even worse, and in the spirit of true compromise we end up with a system that nobody is happy with. Evil gods existing is a point I think a lot of the "but this system isn't fair!" crowd fails to grasp.
It's not beyond our grasp, it just doesn't matter. If the Evil gods and their mortal followers can try to make the rules worse, then they can also, in principle, be made better. They don't have to be accepted just as they are.

[SilverCacaobean]

Not necessarily. She might not have grasped the seriousness of the situation and expected one guard to be enough. Or the other is just a trainee or something and doesn't get ordered directly, just follows the other's lead.

Grey Wolf

Doesn't guard also count as plural (or maybe non countable) as in City guard? Maybe that's what she meant... Nah, it's probably a typo.

[hroþila]

It isn't a medieval society, it's a parody of stereotypical fantasy dwarf society.

Also, weapons weren't just allowed in medieval cities (specifically cities, not the countryside) - they were mandatory. For men.
Generalizations are dangerous, especially when dealing with a period that is generally considered to have lasted some 1000 years and that spans such a large area. By the late Middle Ages, at least in some regions, cities often heavily regulated the carrying of weapons and outright banned everything larger than a knife of this or that size, and occasionally even banned all weapons altogether.

[Psyren]

It's not beyond our grasp, it just doesn't matter. If the Evil gods and their mortal followers can try to make the rules worse, then they can also, in principle, be made better. They don't have to be accepted just as they are.

That's exactly the point though - this IS the rules being better.

Maybe they've fluctuated around this tenuous mean for several of the myriad iterations of the world the gods have tried, but I doubt it's gone particularly far, or lasted for any cosmic length of time.

With that said, I don't think the next world will end up with absolutely no advances in equity, especially for goblins.

[Ruck]

The latter, I think. She doesn't get a vote and doesn't carry a weapon, so her use to the vampires is nil.

Grey Wolf

I think so too, but then I see the next pair entering are both dominated, with no obvious weapon on either.


one wonders if Hel screwed herself over by constantly choosing dwarves that were truly obedient and thus lacked initiative or the will to command people themselves....

I don't think Hel had much choice in the matter.


Hm... this feels like a hint at why Durkula's mission "justifies everything thank you very much," but I'm not understanding why just yet, so at least we know it's not too late.

I don't think there's much mystery there-- Durkula's mission is to put Hel in a place of power. From his perspective, anything it takes justifies that.

[zimmerwald1915]

That's exactly the point though - this IS the rules being better.
Than the absolute worst they could be, sure. But could they not be even better? If not, why not, if it is conceded that they could be worse? If so, why should anyone Good merely accept the status quo as opposed to working for improvement?

[Fyraltari]

Doesn't guard also count as plural (or maybe non countable) as in City guard? Maybe that's what she meant... Nah, it's probably a typo.

No, it’s juste that ‘guard’ is also the name of the organization. ‘The city guard is made of brave men’ vs ‘the city guards are brave men’.

[Psyren]

Than the absolute worst they could be, sure. But could they not be even better? If not, why not, if it is conceded that they could be worse? If so, why should anyone Good merely accept the status quo as opposed to working for improvement?

Oh, I'm not saying Good shouldn't keep working at making them better or that there isn't hope of moving the needle; just that a dissatisfying status quo to base stories on shouldn't be treated as abject failure by Good or poor writing. The forces arrayed against Good shouldn't be underestimated, and the Godsmoot gave us a decent glimpse into just how many there are.

[zimmerwald1915]

Oh, I'm not saying Good shouldn't keep working at making them better or that there isn't hope of moving the needle; just that a dissatisfying status quo to base stories on shouldn't be treated as abject failure by Good or poor writing. The forces arrayed against Good shouldn't be underestimated, and the Godsmoot gave us a decent glimpse into just how many there are.
You might not be, but the story certainly seems to be pushing the narrative of stopping the bleeding first - that is to say, prioritizing the defense of the status quo over campaigning for a positive vision.

[SilverCacaobean]

You might not be, but the story certainly seems to be pushing the narrative of stopping the bleeding first - that is to say, prioritizing the defense of the status quo over campaigning for a positive vision.

Don't be ridiculous. That's about the most uncharitable interpretation of the narrative you could imagine. It's not bleeding, their world's literally about to end. Who's defending the status quo anyway?

I think you really read the punchline to this comic the wrong way.

[zimmerwald1915]

Don't be ridiculous. That's about the most uncharitable interpretation of the narrative you could imagine. It's not bleeding, their world's literally about to end. Who's defending the status quo anyway?

I think you really read the punchline to this comic the wrong way.
The theme is bigger than this one strip.

[SilverCacaobean]

The theme is bigger than this one strip.

Are you talking about the greater story with Redcloak, or just this book?

[Elkad]

Hmm, mechanically I wonder if they failed to dominate her or just decided she wasn't important enough to even try. It looks like they dominated the other bodyguard.

It's only the three vampires, right? The Ex-Exarch, the nameless one he took with him, and the one who fled the other battle.

Dominate everything in the room, most important to least. An unarmed likely-commoner is definitely least.
Guards in the room were pre-dominated.

2 vamps dominate Mom and the guard with them. Standard action
Move action to tell the door guards to block escape.
vamps are done now. (Ex-Exarch isn't present yet)
Daughter yells for help and runs for the door.

Now she's not looking at the vamps and has some distance (Dominate needs eye contact and has a 30' range).
So she gets the punch off.
Exarch rolls terrible for initiative, so a guard goes first and whacks her.

[zimmerwald1915]

Are you talking about the greater story with Redcloak, or just this book?
Redcloak's story is certainly one exploration of the theme - a cautionary tale not to try to improve unfair systems.

[Heksefatter]

Preach it, Brother Exarch!

[Mightymosy]

Brutal
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(stupid min length message rule)

[Psyren]

You might not be, but the story certainly seems to be pushing the narrative of stopping the bleeding first - that is to say, prioritizing the defense of the status quo over campaigning for a positive vision.

I don't view those as separate efforts though, just prioritization or triage. It's like how a doctor treating a debilitating illness needs to prioritize safeguarding himself just as much as, if not moreso than, his patients, because if he gets laid low by it then they are pretty screwed also.

Compromising with the Evil Gods keeps the Snarl in check, which in turn keeps all of existence... existing. The fact that such a compromise is unfair for the innocent has the side benefit of necessitating champions of Good among the mortal races (paladins and heroes) which gives us dramatically interesting stories.

[woweedd]

Redcloak's story is certainly one exploration of the theme - a cautionary tale not to try to improve unfair systems.
I think the message of Redcloak's whole story is less "don't try to change the system" and more "don't let yourself become as bad as the monsters you set out to fight". Redcloak's sin isn't trying to change things. It's being a slaving, brother-murdering asshat who is wiling to throw his kinsmen, who he claims to fight for, away for a nebulous "greater good". He puts the benefit of hypothetical future goblins above the benefit of actual present goblins, and he's motivated, ultimately, by a selfish desire to kill his guilt. Also, why are your treating the mere EXISTENCE of Evil gods as a problem? Most likely, Hel's plan will be foiled, and she will keep on being a God, just as Fenris and Loki are. The Good Gods haven't taken them down, because that would start an escalation they might not be able to win.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

It's probably not a coincidence: all 3 vampires that came to this chamber are dwarves. That was probably part of Greg's plan all along. It seems that the runes above the entrance in the strip before really said "Only dwarves may pass".

I'm guessing this is the last chapter of this book, right?

[Cazero]

Also, why are your treating the mere EXISTENCE of Evil gods as a problem?
Well, that one is easy : they're Evil. By definition their existence cause problems.

[Lkctgo]

Why does everyone of Durkula's vampires seem free willed (albeit the vampire's will) and ready to carry out Hel's doing. Did durkula mass release them from his thrall... when it's been established that some vampires might not be fully on board with the plan?

[Khay]

Were they ever thralled at all? I just thought Hel hand-crafted the spirits to be happy servants.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why does everyone of Durkula's vampires seem free willed (albeit the vampire's will) and ready to carry out Hel's doing. Did durkula mass release them from his thrall... when it's been established that some vampires might not be fully on board with the plan?

They are free willed because Greg has been destroyed.

That they are free-willed and could have chosen not to follow Hel doesn't mean that, given the knowledge she gave them ("do this, and then you can come hang out with me while we remake the world in my image, possibly give you guys dominion over entire countries in the new world") isn't a Hel of an offer they'd be stupid not to take up.


Were they ever thralled at all? I just thought Hel hand-crafted the spirits to be happy servants.
No, she hand-crafts them to fit the dead creature they'll be taking over, and sends them forth with as much info as she can manage (e.g. location of the gods moot, the plan, etc). But they're still free-willed. THey could choose not to follow her.

Grey Wolf

[TheNecrocomicon]

So, yeah ... what was that with us being over the bulk of the tension and drama, just because the big main villain Lurkon got overwhelmed and destroyed?

Seems there's still plenty of messy death and destruction yet to go before the actual vote on ending the world is stopped and resolved.


Were they ever thralled at all? I just thought Hel hand-crafted the spirits to be happy servants.

"I thought vampires were supposed to be free-willed undead."
"We are, and I have freely chosen to serve." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1005.html)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Seems there's still plenty of messy death and destruction yet to go before the actual vote on ending the world is stopped and resolved.

Well, it's still Durkon's book, and what kind of heroic fantasy would this be if Durkon didn't get a chance to use his new hammer in a Big Damn Heroes moment? We need him to chew gum and kick ass, and be all out of gum.

Grey Wolf

[mjasghar]

Such selflessness. It would bring a tear to my eye.

Looks like the Exarch transitionned into his new position seamlessly.
As a priest from outside the traditional religious structure - in particular relying on elementals- I’m not surprised he is drawn to such an attitude

[Crisis21]

Than the absolute worst they could be, sure. But could they not be even better? If not, why not, if it is conceded that they could be worse? If so, why should anyone Good merely accept the status quo as opposed to working for improvement?

It all depends on the status quo, really.

Law wants the status quo to be stable.

Chaos wants the status quo to be mutable.

Good wants the status quo to be fair and equitable for all.

Evil wants the status quo to be in its favor.


Now, the first two points can find a middle ground that is mutually agreeable. A status quo that is both stable and mutable may be difficult, but it is far from impossible.

The second two points, however, are at an eternal impasse. What Good wants and what Evil wants are mutually exclusive. A status quo that is fair and equitable cannot be in anyone's favor and a status quo that favors any individual or group cannot be fair and equitable.


Whenever Good is seen defending the status quo, it is inevitably from forces that would make that status quo less fair and equitable. Whenever Good is seen changing the status quo, it is to make the status quo more fair and equitable.


The reason we see Good forces defending the status quo in stories like this is because that's where the action is: defending society from the forces that would make things worse than they already are. The forces of Good working to improve the status quo are doing it from inside society by effecting social change and all that jazz. If you want to see Good forces changing the status quo from outside society with lots of action, you have to go to horrible places like the Empire of Blood where the Good guys form resistance movements to overthrow the Evil overlords.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Well, it's still Durkon's book, and what kind of heroic fantasy would this be if Durkon didn't get a chance to use his new hammer in a Big Damn Heroes moment? We need him to chew gum and kick ass, and be all out of gum.

That, and it's a payoff for people who waited five years of reading for him to be able to take actions and have autonomy again as a living, breathing, independent dwarven being.

[Kish]

Were they ever thralled at all? I just thought Hel hand-crafted the spirits to be happy servants.
Well, that's tricky.

Rich said that vampires are free-willed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17331234&postcount=286) and just as much "people" as Redcloak.

How much "preprogramming" can that concept survive?

(I'd say "little or none," for my part. Greg was a spirit formed in Hel's hall before he incarnated in Durkon's body, in the same way Roy was a spirit formed in Odin's hall before he incarnated in Roy's infant body; he was no more hand-crafted to serve Hel than Roy was hand-crafted to become a cleric of Odin, making the choices he did because he was a funhouse mirror of Durkon, not because he was created by Hel.)

[Kareasint]

I am going to enjoy watching these three get dusted.

Speaking as someone that has played a number of clerics over the years, I could beat this encounter. The OOTS just needs a little lower level support from the Temple of Thor once everybody shows up for work in the morning.

[mjasghar]

I always thought everyone in medieval societies carried weapons of some sort, even if it's just a small knife. And that would apply more so in a world with lots of monsters. Especially if you're rich enough to afford bodyguards.
It’s a lawful society with little to no street theft etc due to the Hel issue so no reason to go armed inside their city

[Fyraltari]

That's about the most uncharitable interpretation of the narrative you could imagine.
Yeah, that’s zimmerwald1915 for you.

Redcloak's story is certainly one exploration of the theme - a cautionary tale not to try to improve unfair systems.
Case in point. I think Redcloak’s story is a cautionnary take alright, to not let a desire for revenge overtake a desire to do good. And that when trying to change a system, empowering people who are even worse than those who uphold said system is a terrible idea.
I would be really surprised if at the end of book 7 the goblins’ situation were not significantly better (throw in the Bet between Thor and Hel being over as well).

Why does everyone of Durkula's vampires seem free willed (albeit the vampire's will) and ready to carry out Hel's doing. Did durkula mass release them from his thrall... when it's been established that some vampires might not be fully on board with the plan?
Two of them are only a couple of days old and the third only a few hours and they’ve been busy. On one hand, they haven’t had time to absorb enough memories to have a reason to care about this world beyond whatever suffering it inflicted on their host on the day they felt the worst ever. On the other hand, they are offered power and rewards for destroying it. On the first hand again, they’re trapped in a city full of dwarves with no ally they could join with and no coffin they could retreat into. Why would they [u]not[/] go along?

[2D8HP]

"Equal wrongs for all!" is a brilliant coinage!

I'm so looking for a place to drop that line now.

[Ruck]

So, yeah ... what was that with us being over the bulk of the tension and drama, just because the big main villain Lurkon got overwhelmed and destroyed?
Still likely to be accurate, as the actual discussions about what "falling action" means and that Durkon now gets a chance to use what he's learned from the experience as per the traditional Hero's Journey cycle suggested?

i.e.:


Well, it's still Durkon's book, and what kind of heroic fantasy would this be if Durkon didn't get a chance to use his new hammer in a Big Damn Heroes moment? We need him to chew gum and kick ass, and be all out of gum.

Grey Wolf



It's probably not a coincidence: all 3 vampires that came to this chamber are dwarves. That was probably part of Greg's plan all along. It seems that the runes above the entrance in the strip before really said "Only dwarves may pass".

I'm guessing this is the last chapter of this book, right?

I'd guess at least one more-- the Council will be its own chapter, and then we'll get the denouement chapter where we have reunions and talk about what we've learned and get the ball rolling on the plot hooks for the final book.

Also, if you're right about the Council being limited to dwarves, V can prepare Mind Blank twice and has two high-level dwarf clerics to cast it on. (Then again, I'm not sure if Hilgya will be willing to help. If they bring back Minrah this morning, obviously she would but she's not nearly as strong.)

[Snails]

Compromising with the Evil Gods keeps the Snarl in check, which in turn keeps all of existence... existing. The fact that such a compromise is unfair for the innocent has the side benefit of necessitating champions of Good among the mortal races (paladins and heroes) which gives us dramatically interesting stories.

Agreed.

The Giant has an original take on a very old theological mystery "Why don't the god(s) just fix things for us mortals?" And it always comes down to some variant of "since there is disagreement among the great powers, even us angels/devils/fey/gods must follow some rules, or else Ragnorak right now (and no one wants that to happen, at least no one is willing to risk it yet)".

The Giant has made this choice more overt: gods must "adequately" work together or the campaign/world could immediately end, by empowering the existing Snarl to escape or to become even more powerful when it eventually escapes or helping create a new one.

[woweedd]

Well, that one is easy : they're Evil. By definition their existence cause problems.
Well, yeah, but the point is, there's no real point in complaining about he divine system being "unjust", when 1/3rd of the Gods find justice actively repellent.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, yeah, but the point is, there's no real point in complaining about he divine system being "unjust", when 1/3rd of the Gods find justice actively repellent.

And a further 1/3 don't care about the topic.

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

RIP long-suffering daughter. Your presence was short, but appreciated. Of course it was short, she's a dwarf.

[The Extinguisher]

"thats just the way things are" isn't an adequate answer to "why cant things be better?"

i dont think thats exactly where the comic is, but its uncomfortably close enough to it

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Of course it was short, she's a dwarf.

Pro-tip: making that kind of joke in certain eateries of Ankh-Morpork (ones that feature both ketchup and rat in the menu) is legal grounds for suicide.

Grey Wolf

[mjasghar]

"thats just the way things are" isn't an adequate answer to "why cant things be better?"

i dont think thats exactly where the comic is, but its uncomfortably close enough to it
More like we are all a part of society so we have to take all opinions into consideration and have to participate
But at the same time showing how that can cause problems and injustices
The Good gods alone couldn’t create the world - indeed it took more than one culture to create the world
Which suggests all the worlds subsequent to the Snarl have been lacking due to the absence of the Greeks - but also means less anachronisms cf Bronze wielding societies existing alongside renaissance era societies

[D.One]

Sad for the daughter...

And laughing with the explanation of Hel vs. hell

[Rex500]

That last panel. :smallbiggrin:

[Aquillion]

The latter, I think. She doesn't get a vote and doesn't carry a weapon, so her use to the vampires is nil.And also because every unnecessary dwarf they dominate is another one who might break free at inopportune moments. They'd want to minimize that.


Shouldn’t it be ‘guards, defend my...’?"Guard" can refer to the group or institution, too (eg. "the guard.")

[Resileaf]

And also because every unnecessary dwarf they dominate is another one who might break free at inopportune moments. They'd want to minimize that.


Plus they are guards, which mean better defenses later on.
Or they're going to kill them in a way that will guarantee a free trip to Hel, all expenses paid.

[KorvinStarmast]

The latter, I think. She doesn't get a vote and doesn't carry a weapon, so her use to the vampires is nil. Bingo. Lawful evil is efficient in a way that chaotic evil rarely is.

Something something equal distribution of misery, we get it :smallannoyed: Since we are still in dwarf land, I guess ax grinding fits the narrative.

The Exarch is truly the John Lennon of our time. I snorted out loud IRL at that. Nicely done. :smallcool:
I don't think Hel had much choice in the matter. She chose to make the wager. (Or are you referring to something else?)

Durkula's mission is to put Hel in a place of power. From his perspective, anything it takes justifies that. I think that LE leans toward "ends justifies the means" but that line, I just noticed, does not show up in Astralspace (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html). (

Don't be ridiculous. That's about the most uncharitable interpretation of the narrative you could imagine. Silver, meet Zim ....

and what kind of heroic fantasy would this be if Durkon didn't get a chance to use his new hammer in a Big Damn Heroes moment? We need him to chew gum and kick ass, and be all out of gum. Hammer hits nail.
"Equal wrongs for all!" is a brilliant coinage! I'm so looking for a place to drop that line now. It's been done (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnC88xBPkkc) ...

The Giant has an original take on a very old theological mystery "Why don't the god(s) just fix things for us mortals?" I've seen that referred to as "the spoiled child problem" but it's been a few years ... might not be remembering that correctly.


Pro-tip: making that kind of joke in certain eateries of Ankh-Morpork (ones that feature both ketchup and rat in the menu) is legal grounds for suicide. Not a Pratchett fan. Not sure if I've ever read a single on of his books. Maybe once 30 years ago while on a ship at sea?

[georgie_leech]

You might not be, but the story certainly seems to be pushing the narrative of stopping the bleeding first - that is to say, prioritizing the defense of the status quo over campaigning for a positive vision.

I mean, if I'm at the hospital with cancer and a gaping neck wound, I certainly hope they'd treat the latter first :smalleek:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not a Pratchett fan. Not sure if I've ever read a single on of his books. Maybe once 30 years ago while on a ship at sea?


Murder was in fact a fairly uncommon event in Ankh-Morpork, but there were a lot of suicides. Walking in the night-time alleyways of The Shades was suicide. Asking for a short in a dwarf bar was suicide. Saying 'Got rocks in your head?' to a troll was suicide. You could commit suicide very easily, if you weren't careful.
GW c

[zimmerwald1915]

"Equal wrongs for all!" is a brilliant coinage!

I'm so looking for a place to drop that line now.
Don't you work in a courthouse? Surely opportunities arise daily?

[Peelee]

Don't you work in a courthouse? Surely opportunities arise daily?

I believe you mean the Hall of Justice!

[2D8HP]

It's been done (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnC88xBPkkc) .....


Ah, axes involved.

More into the Yardbirds (any other nominations as "world's greatest rock 'n roll band are lies I tell you!) than Rush, but I appreciate the link!

[EDIT: Alas, it's not from The Yardbirds, but from 1965, here's a song (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lNqjf5EDU1Y) for the vampires!]


Don't you work in a courthouse? Surely opportunities arise daily?


Most of my work is on the 7th floor in the jail above the court rooms, and now that you mention it....


I believe you mean the Hall of Justice!

The "Thomas J. Cahill Hall Of Justice" at 850 Bryant Street, which has been scheduled to be torn down "within the next 10 years" since 1991.

[Doug Lampert]

One wonders if Kubota's obscure prestige class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html) would grant resistance to domination effects as well. Not that it would have helped much, mind.

I've always assumed that's the Spymaster class from Song and Silence (3.0 splat for bards and rogues), which an aristocrat can also qualify for fairly easily, and which gives "Deep Cover (Ex): At 8th level, the spymaster can quiet her mind and completely immerse herself in her cover identity at will. While she is in deep cover, divination spells detect only information appropriate for her cover identity; they reveal nothing relating to her spymaster persona."

The class also gives slippery mind at level 5 and "Mind Blank (Sp): At 10th level, the spymaster can become immune to all mind-affecting spells and divinations by rigorously silencing her mind. Using mind blank is a standard action, and the spyrnaster can do it a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. This ability works exactly like a mind blank spell cast by a 15th-level sorcerer, except that it affects the spymaster only and its duration is 10 minutes."

The level 10 mind-blank would work if active.

[zimmerwald1915]

I mean, if I'm at the hospital with cancer and a gaping neck wound, I certainly hope they'd treat the latter first :smalleek:
Society was not a human body in the time of Thomas Hobbes or James Stuart, and it is no more a human body now.

[Lombard]

This strip reminds me, I should really get going on my taxes...

[gatemansgc]

i guess the daughter was the only one who made her will save, so they just had her killed. ):

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Somehow I imagine that’s not the post-bet utopia that most would envision.

[KorvinStarmast]

GW cI get the joke, and I suppose that it kept the cost of running a court system down since fewer homicide cases were brought to trial. :smallcool:

Oh, I forgot to add:
Thank you, Giant, for getting us back to the action. That it all went south for much-put-upon-daughter is unfortunate. :smallfrown:

[druid91]

Is it just me, or do all the vampire dwarves look like they just escaped Slytherin House, as far as color scheme goes?

[zimmerwald1915]

Is it just me, or do all the vampire dwarves look like they just escaped Slytherin House, as far as color scheme goes?
Even the one dressed in Ravenclaw blue (that is to say, the vestments of the Church of Thor)?

[Kish]

I've always assumed that's the Spymaster class from Song and Silence (3.0 splat for bards and rogues), which an aristocrat can also qualify for fairly easily, and which gives "Deep Cover (Ex): At 8th level, the spymaster can quiet her mind and completely immerse herself in her cover identity at will. While she is in deep cover, divination spells detect only information appropriate for her cover identity; they reveal nothing relating to her spymaster persona."

The class also gives slippery mind at level 5 and "Mind Blank (Sp): At 10th level, the spymaster can become immune to all mind-affecting spells and divinations by rigorously silencing her mind. Using mind blank is a standard action, and the spyrnaster can do it a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. This ability works exactly like a mind blank spell cast by a 15th-level sorcerer, except that it affects the spymaster only and its duration is 10 minutes."

The level 10 mind-blank would work if active.
Given the lack of indication that Kubota maintained separate personae or had a cover identity, I think "Rich handwaved it" is about 10,000% more likely than "he used a 3.0 published class which has an ability that might fit if bent far enough."

("This Zone of Truth will only reveal information appropriate to Kubota; unhinted-at in the strip, and unknown to the people he ordered to try to assassinate Hinjo and the Katos, that order actually came from Atobuk!")

[Doug Lampert]

Given the lack of indication that Kubota maintained separate personae or had a cover identity, I think "Rich handwaved it" is about 10,000% more likely than "he used a 3.0 published class which has an ability that might fit if bent far enough."

("This Zone of Truth will only reveal information appropriate to Kubota; unhinted-at in the strip, and unknown to the people he ordered to try to assassinate Hinjo and the Katos, that order actually came from Atobuk!")

There's nothing in the class or it's fluff that stops your cover from being a noble named Kubota who ISN'T running ninjas to assassinate people, even if your actual ID is Kubota.

You design your own cover ID, what exactly do you think Kubota would design given the choice? This isn't bending the ability, it is using it EXACTLY as written and intended.

And given that there IS a perfectly good class that fits what's stated, why not assume it's what is used.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I get the joke, and I suppose that it kept the cost of running a court system down since fewer homicide cases were brought to trial. :smallcool:

As usual, I quote Terry Pratchett in an effort to get Peelee to read the books. If it has the secondary effect of getting anyone else (e.g. you) to read them, that's just a bonus.

Grey Wolf

[Psychronia]

RIP long-suffering daughter. Our hearts go out to you and your honorable dominated-guard face-punching death.

The greatest equality is perfectly evenly distributed malice. That's not...wrong.
Hmm. I wonder whether that philosophy is more a Lawful Evil deity's thing or a Chaotic Evil one?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The greatest equality is perfectly evenly distributed malice. That's not...wrong.
Hmm. I wonder whether that philosophy is more a Lawful Evil deity's thing or a Chaotic Evil one?

Given the angle is "there shouldn't be any exceptions, just an universal, all-encompassing rule", it feels like the PoV of Lawful, not of Chaotic, who is far more likely to want case-by-case reasoning.

Grey Wolf

[eilandesq]

I'll grant it's more than a little petty of me, but I would be really happy at this point of the outcome of the main plot left Hel nonexistent due to aggravated Snarling--particularly if she was the only divine victim in this cycle.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'll grant it's more than a little petty of me, but I would be really happy at this point of the outcome of the main plot left Hel nonexistent due to aggravated Snarling--particularly if she was the only divine victim in this cycle.
Who becomes the Northern god of death in this case?

[MikelaC1]

I find it ridiculously plot serving that no cleric (who have the best WILL saves and the best WIS bonus) can resist being dominated. There are only so many natural 1s to go around.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Who becomes the Northern god of death in this case?

The guy who wants to kill everyone and piss on their graves would not be a bad choice, I'd imagine.


I find it ridiculously plot serving that no cleric (who have the best WILL saves and the best WIS bonus) can resist being dominated. There are only so many natural 1s to go around.

I find it ridiculous that this is being brought up attached to a page where there isn't a single living cleric to be found.

Also, a high save cannot save you if multiple vampires spend every action attempting to dominate you. Sooner or later, you'll roll badly - and it need not be a 1. IIRC, Hilgya could fail a check for as much as a five - i.e. 25% of the time. On average, four vampires working in concert will get her in a round or two.

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

I find it ridiculously plot serving that no cleric (who have the best WILL saves and the best WIS bonus) can resist being dominated. There are only so many natural 1s to go around.
The clan elders are not necessarily or even likely to be Clerics. They are more likely to be Aristocrats - who, admittedly, do have good Will saves but also have NPC stats (standard array: 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13). And they probably have age bonuses to Wisdom.

So probably not bad Will saves on the whole. But then, not likely to be so good that not beating the vampires' DCs every round they make domination attempts is unbelievable.

[Resileaf]

The clan elders are not necessarily or even likely to be Clerics. They are more likely to be Aristocrats - who, admittedly, do have good Will saves but also have NPC stats (standard array: 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13). And they probably have age bonuses to Wisdom.

So probably not bad Will saves on the whole. But then, not likely to be so good that not beating the vampires' DCs every round they make domination attempts is unbelievable.

A DC that is in high likelyness pretty high due to the level of the vampires before being turned.

[kenlund]

This situation demonstrates a classic problem faced when playing D&D. The need to rest to regain full power...spells particularly..to move the campaign forward. The OOTS has to rest to be ready to take on the remaining vampires after the big fight with Durkula. But that gives the monsters (guided by rolls of the DM) a chance to respawn and regroup, and do acts of evil. I have faced the conundrum where I realize the monsters are going to further their plans while I rest, possibly even attack the party during resting, but i have no choice even though bad things will likely happen to innocents.

The needs of the Player Characters outweigh the needs of the one NPC or the many NPCs.

[Resileaf]

This situation demonstrates a classic problem faced when playing D&D. The need to rest to regain full power...spells particularly..to move the campaign forward. The OOTS has to rest to be ready to take on the remaining vampires after the big fight with Durkula. But that gives the monsters (guided by rolls of the DM) a chance to respawn and regroup, and do acts of evil. I have faced the conundrum where I realize the monsters are going to further their plans while I rest, possibly even attack the party during resting, but i have no choice even though bad things will likely happen to innocents.

The needs of the Player Characters outweigh the needs of the one NPC or the many NPCs.

On the other hand, if the OotS rushes and gets wrecked by the remaining vampires because they did no preparation work and rest for spells, the vampires win and the world is destroyed.
Everyone needs rest, even heroes. They can't be everywhere at once and they are not invincible.

[AngelusAlvus]

My Norse mythology knowledge is quite weak, but does Hel simply inflicts punishment regardless if a person is a criminal or not?

[MikelaC1]

I find it ridiculous that this is being brought up attached to a page where there isn't a single living cleric to be found.

Also, a high save cannot save you if multiple vampires spend every action attempting to dominate you. Sooner or later, you'll roll badly - and it need not be a 1. IIRC, Hilgya could fail a check for as much as a five - i.e. 25% of the time. On average, four vampires working in concert will get her in a round or two.

Grey Wolf

The Mother is a cleric, seeing as she has been summoned to a council of clerics.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My Norse mythology knowledge is quite weak, but does Hel simply inflicts punishment regardless if a person is a criminal or not?

We do not discuss real religion beliefs in this forum. It is against the rules. The OotS Hel clearly gets a kick out of inflicting punishment regardless of criminality


The Mother is a cleric, seeing as she has been summoned to a council of clerics.

No. The mother is being summoned to a council of heads of clans. Being the head of a clan is not a clerical position.

Grey Wolf

[kenlund]

On the other hand, if the OotS rushes and gets wrecked by the remaining vampires because they did no preparation work and rest for spells, the vampires win and the world is destroyed.
Everyone needs rest, even heroes. They can't be everywhere at once and they are not invincible.

Yup, that is an accurate restatement of the problem. That is why D&D roleplaying requires different game play thinking than online games where the equivalent of a full night of rest happens in a minute. Mundane considerations of being alive are relevant.

[hroþila]

The Mother is a cleric, seeing as she has been summoned to a council of clerics.
I think you're confusing the Godsmoot, which is a council of clerics (and other divine casters), and the Council of Elders, which gathers the heads of the dwarven clans. The Mother is an aristocrat. They are not necessarily clerics, and in fact it's quite likely that none of them are.

[Caerulea]

Excellent rationalisation for killing and dominating people there, Gontor.

—Caerulea

[Peelee]

As usual, I quote Terry Pratchett in an effort to get Peelee to read the books.

Grey Wolf

And if they didn't sound so good from the excerpts I may have thought about never reading them just to keep the attention.:smalltongue:

[D.One]

There's nothing in the class or it's fluff that stops your cover from being a noble named Kubota who ISN'T running ninjas to assassinate people, even if your actual ID is Kubota.

You design your own cover ID, what exactly do you think Kubota would design given the choice? This isn't bending the ability, it is using it EXACTLY as written and intended.

And given that there IS a perfectly good class that fits what's stated, why not assume it's what is used.

Except that there is a 3.5 prestige class, the Tattooed Monk from Complete Warrior, that fits the description even better, because it has an ability that specifically foils magical lie detection (White Mask Tattoo), and can be reached by a 5th level Aristocrat, same as the Spymaster.

[Ruck]

She chose to make the wager. (Or are you referring to something else?)

I'm referring to exactly what I'm responding to:


one wonders if Hel screwed herself over by constantly choosing dwarves that were truly obedient and thus lacked initiative or the will to command people themselves....

In what way did Hel "constantly choose dwarves that were truly obedient"?

[zimmerwald1915]

Except that there is a 3.5 prestige class, the Tattooed Monk from Complete Warrior, that fits the description even better, because it has an ability that specifically foils magical lie detection (White Mask Tattoo), and can be reached by a 5th level Aristocrat, same as the Spymaster.
Kubota's face is, however, obviously not masked by a white tattoo.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Kubota's face is, however, obviously not masked by a white tattoo.

I'm not sure that the tattoo need be in the face?

(I also, though, don't see the need to positively identify which class Kubota is talking about. Heck, for all we know, he's bluffing about having taken the PrC).

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm not sure that the tattoo need be in the face?
It's a mask, it goes on the face.

More importantly, it grants the supernatural ability to fool magical lie detection, while Kubota specifically calls his ability "extraordinary."


(I also, though, don't see the need to positively identify which class Kubota is talking about. Heck, for all we know, he's bluffing about having taken the PrC).
It's fun? And "at some point you have to accept that the only way I [Mr. Burlew] have to get non-visual information to the audience is through dialogue."

[Caerulea]

It's a mask, it goes on the face.

It could be a tattoo of a white mask, like one of these (https://www.google.com/search?q=white+mask&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS816US816&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir-KnR18jgAhXkT98KHTBCDvUQ_AUIhQMoAQ&biw=1280&bih=578#imgrc=BDfhQK8UC7xA3M:), which is located elsewhere on the body.

—Caerulea

[Kish]

There's nothing in the class or it's fluff that stops your cover from being a noble named Kubota who ISN'T running ninjas to assassinate people, even if your actual ID is Kubota.

You design your own cover ID, what exactly do you think Kubota would design given the choice?

Again: He didn't have a cover identity, thus what he would design is irrelevant, since he manifestly designed nothing. Saying that he can declare a cover identity of his normal self only as a law-abiding citizen strikes me as a truly massive display of abusive rules-lawyering. Let's not play D&D together.

This isn't bending the ability, it is using it EXACTLY as written and intended.

Tosh. As written and intended, the spymaster prestige class is for a spymaster--not "grab this, no matter who you are, if you want to be able to lie."

[Jasdoif]

You might not be, but the story certainly seems to be pushing the narrative of stopping the bleeding first - that is to say, prioritizing the defense of the status quo over campaigning for a positive vision.Or the narrative of stopping the bleeding first - that is to say, not being too exsanguinated to campaign for a positive vision; because the status quo being the status quo gives its defenders an advantage in causing, and taking advantage of, the bleeding.

[Fyraltari]

I get the joke, and I suppose that it kept the cost of running a court system down since fewer homicide cases were brought to trial. :smallcool
A happy side-effect. The implied intended goal is to keep the Watchmen alive (and to continue on the running joke of AM being «*a city of a hundred thousand souls. And a million inhabitants*».

As usual, I quote Terry Pratchett in an effort to get Peelee to read the books. If it has the secondary effect of getting anyone else (e.g. you) to read them, that's just a bonus.

Grey Wolf
Didn’t he promise already?


The guy who wants to kill everyone and piss on their graves would not be a bad choice, I'd imagine.
Fitting. That’s her brother.

[zimmerwald1915]

Was Kubota - the information broker with a squad of ninja assassins and thieves at his command, the stereotypical Evil Vizier except coded Japanese rather than Turkish - not a spymaster?

[KorvinStarmast]

As usual, I quote Terry Pratchett in an effort to get Peelee to read the books. If it has the secondary effect of getting anyone else (e.g. you) to read them, that's just a bonus.
While I will be reading Mistborn first, should I happen across his stuff at second hand books, which title should I read first?

@Ruck
Aah, that makes sense. The problem with multiquote is that if one is not careful, one may miss a detail like that.

[zimmerwald1915]

While I will be reading Mistborn first, should I happen across his stuff at second hand books, which title should I read first?
The one with twee bromides masquerading as philosophy.

[Dogcula]

Is that the same vampire who escaped from the battle with the order? Safe to say that the exarch knows about Greg's defeat, then.

[KorvinStarmast]

The one with twee bromides masquerading as philosophy.
I am already reading OoTS. :smalleek:
(ducks)
(ducks again, since giants get two attacks in a round ...)

Is that the same vampire who escaped from the battle with the order? Safe to say that the exarch knows about Greg's defeat, then. I think so, and that was the head canon I was operating under as I read the strip.
EDIT:
I think that's he (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html)r.

[Peelee]

The one with twee bromides masquerading as philosophy.

Sounds salty.

[Ruck]

@Ruck
Aah, that makes sense. The problem with multiquote is that if one is not careful, one may miss a detail like that.

Yeah, I'm just saying that I don't think she has a whole lot of control over which dwarves she had the opportunity to make vampires out of to serve her plan, which is what I think is being discussed.


Is that the same vampire who escaped from the battle with the order? Safe to say that the exarch knows about Greg's defeat, then.


I think so, and that was the head canon I was operating under as I read the strip.
EDIT:
I think that's he (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html)r.

Yeah, looks the same, and to boot Durkula only sent one other vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html) with the Ex-Exarch.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Didn’t he promise already?

Yes, but at an unspecified point in the future. My intention now is to drag that date as far forward towards the present as I can.


While I will be reading Mistborn first, should I happen across his stuff at second hand books, which title should I read first?

Entire threads have been dedicated to this topic (and the related one "Where should you stop reading"). My own rule of thumb answer? Reaper Man.

"Guards! Guards!" and "Wyrd Sisters" are also perfectly valid too.

Grey Wolf

[pendell]

Redcloak's story is certainly one exploration of the theme - a cautionary tale not to try to improve unfair systems.

Isn't it common in fairy tales, not just this one? There is an assumption that the kingdom is at peace and everything is fine; that it is the villain who wants to upset the applecart and the order of the universe to make a new system, which usually revolves around the villain being despot of everything.

Heck , it even shows up in Star Wars, which we won't stop arguing about. The Jedi preserve an archaic, broken, unjust system which includes slavery on Tatooine. It's the Sith who want to change things, and their idea of "changing things" means abolishing a bureaucratic , corrupt republic with a despotic, totalitarian Empire.

But ... I don't think that's quite what Rich is getting at. Remember the entire Azure City arc, where their conquest and destruction comes directly from their mis-treatment of hobgoblins. It's possible that if the Elves had not been prejudiced against goblins as a species, they wouldn't have been infiltrated and murdered as actually happened.

I think all of the story to date is about replacing the old system which is literally broken -- literally, as in their are literal holes in reality that need gates to patch them -- with a better system based on a new order.

This will eventually mean allying with Red Cloak and the Dark One to some extent. Which will mean the next world will need to treat goblins as something better than walking XP.

So I don't think Rich's underlying theme is nearly as conservative as, say, Tolkien's. And I don't think it's wrong to say that, no matter how broken a system is, there is always someone seeking to break it worse, provided it benefits them. That's the whole point of the chaotic evil alignment, isn't it?

With regards to the strip itself ... alas for longsuffering daughter, we hardly knew ye :(. I would love this character to be raised and get more story, say as a backer thing.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

Yes, but at an unspecified point in the future. My intention now is to drag that date as far forward towards the present as I can.

Technically, the point was specified, it was just as soon as I'm done with my current book. Unless you can alter time, speed up the harvest or teleport me off this rock watch my baby, download all the info I need for my degree into my head Matrix-style, or take care of me financially so I don't have to work, dragging that date forward is going to be difficult to do.

Also, forget the strikeout, I'll take altering time as an acceptable course of action as well.

[zimmerwald1915]

Isn't it common in fairy tales, not just this one?
Sure. So? This particular discussion forum and thread is for The Order of the Stick.

[Caerulea]

Sure. So? This particular discussion forum and thread is for The Order of the Stick.
And Star Wars, apparently.

—Caerulea

[pendell]

Sure. So? This particular discussion forum and thread is for The Order of the Stick.

Okay. Well, I still think you're mis-reading. If Redcloak is a cautionary tale against changing systems, then Azure City is a cautionary tale against not changing them when you really, desperately need to. The ill fate of the Elvish resistance drives the point home even more strongly.

I think that, in the end, the world of OOTS will be changed to be better, in the sense that they will be able to create a four-color quiddity which will properly restrain the Snarl. This means allying with The Dark One, which means giving him some -- but not all -- of what he wants.

Of course, in order to bring the Dark One to the table, they first have to quash his mad plan to use the snarl to hold them all hostage. It's obvious now that one-color Dark One won't be able to tame and control the Snarl; his plan rather means his own destruction at its hands, as well as who knows how many other gods and planes before the carnage ends, if it does.

So I don't think the argument is against change period. I think the argument is for the right change, which of necessity is slower and more incremental than the kind of radical changes the Dark One wishes.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[georgie_leech]

Okay. Well, I still think you're mis-reading. If Redcloak is a cautionary tale against changing systems, then Azure City is a cautionary tale against not changing them when you really, desperately need to. The ill fate of the Elvish resistance drives the point home even more strongly.

I think that, in the end, the world of OOTS will be changed to be better, in the sense that they will be able to create a four-color quiddity which will properly restrain the Snarl. This means allying with The Dark One, which means giving him some -- but not all -- of what he wants.

Of course, in order to bring the Dark One to the table, they first have to quash his mad plan to use the snarl to hold them all hostage. It's obvious now that one-color Dark One won't be able to tame and control the Snarl; his plan rather means his own destruction at its hands, as well as who knows how many other gods and planes before the carnage ends, if it does.

So I don't think the argument is against change period. I think the argument is for the right change, which of necessity is slower and more incremental than the kind of radical changes the Dark One wishes.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I don't think his plan is so much to control it so much as use it as the ultimate MAD. Like if someone somewhere found a button for launching all the nukes at once.

[zimmerwald1915]

Okay. Well, I still think you're mis-reading. If Redcloak is a cautionary tale against changing systems, then Azure City is a cautionary tale against not changing them when you really, desperately need to.
Is it? O-Chul and Hinjo joined the Sapphire Guard with the express purpose of reforming it, and brought Miko with them. Which is not to say that reform necessarily led to collapse, but it certainly did not help as much as it needed to.

[pendell]

Is it? O-Chul and Hinjo joined the Sapphire Guard with the express purpose of reforming it, and brought Miko with them. Which is not to say that reform necessarily led to collapse, but it certainly did not help as much as it needed to.

So does the right answer mean "Never reform ever"? It looks to me, rather, as if the answer was MORE reform, not less.

Ironically, Redcloak and company may have very well greatly improved Azure City's ability to reform by divesting it of traditions and trappings, not to mention capital and lives. Call it... creative destruction :smallamused: .

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Kish]

Is it? O-Chul and Hinjo joined the Sapphire Guard with the express purpose of reforming it, and brought Miko with them.
This is a factually inaccurate statement. Miko was in the Sapphire Guard at the beginning of How the Paladin Got His Scar; even if you would find it meaningful to argue that she wasn't a paladin yet and so can't have been an actual member, Shojo concurred with Hinjo that he had already let her join. If you want to argue that the Sapphire Guard circa No Cure for the Paladin Blues, the Sapphire Guard of O-Chul, Lien, Hinjo, and Thanh, is not blatantly, intentionally a huge improvement over the organization that butchered proto-Redcloak's village, even with Miko, you'll have to reach for at least slightly higher-hanging fruit than that.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't think his plan is so much to control it so much as use it as the ultimate MAD. Like if someone somewhere found a button for launching all the nukes at once. If they did it on the Fourth of July, or on New Years Eve, that'd be a hell of a going away party for civilization. Go out with a bang, not a whimper. (Vague ref to a poem - TS Eliot/Hollow men)

Is it? O-Chul and Hinjo joined the Sapphire Guard with the express purpose of reforming it, and brought Miko with them. Which is not to say that reform necessarily led to collapse, but it certainly did not help as much as it needed to.
Zero defects standard noted.
For some people, it's never enough.
The perfect is the enemy of the good.
OK, out of cliches for the moment.

[Fyraltari]

Heck , it even shows up in Star Wars, which we won't stop arguing about. The Jedi preserve an archaic, broken, unjust system which includes slavery on Tatooine.
No, it doesn’t. Tattooing isn’t part of the Republic that the Jedi preserve. Republican credits aren’t even accepted there.


So I don't think Rich's underlying theme is nearly as conservative as, say, Tolkien's.
What is that supposed to mean?

[Caerulea]

No, it doesn’t. Tattooing isn’t part of the Republic that the Jedi preserve. Republican credits aren’t even accepted there.

Perhaps I missed something (I only saw the IV-VI) but I don't recall tattooing being mentioned, certainly not as a Jedi tradition.

—Caerulea

[Peelee]

Perhaps I missed something (I only saw the IV-VI) but I don't recall tattooing being mentioned, certainly not as a Jedi tradition.

—Caerulea

Darth Maul was indeed only in Episode I, as far as the main movies go.

[Jasdoif]

I don't think his plan is so much to control it so much as use it as the ultimate MAD. Like if someone somewhere found a button for launching all the nukes at once.I don't think it'll count as "mutually assured destruction" if launching all the nukes turns out to be the actual plan, personally. It could still be mad, even though it's not MAD.


Darth Maul was indeed only in Episode I, as far as the main movies go.But was tattooing ever prevalent on Tattooine? (Or Tatooine, for that matter?)

[Kish]

What is that supposed to mean?
:smallconfused: Is this actual incomprehension or anger at seeing a criticism of LotR?

[pendell]

What is that supposed to mean?

in response to me: "So I don't think Rich's underlying theme is nearly as conservative as, say, Tolkien's." )

Rich recognizes the need for change. The people of Azure City get slaughtered , in part, because they won't change. The Elvish resistance is quashed, in part, because it won't change. This entire discussion of quiddities and the need for a fourth is an indicator that, in Rich's world, change is a good thing.

That's a very different view of Tolkien's Middle-Earth.

Because Middle-Earth is not the infinity-plus-one attempt of a divine committee wrangling among themselves to produce a workable world. Middle-Earth is the creation of a single , perfect being, which is Eru Illuvatar. The only discord from this vision is introduced by rebels such as Melkor.

Thus, in the world of middle-earth, ALL change is evil. The only good change is to restore the original vision of what used to be before the fall. But whenever anyone tries to change anything, it always makes things worse. Sandyman's mill is evil. Goblins and their machines are evil. Industry and technology is evil. Even Aragorn is not really a change in the positive sense as it is a restoration of the old kingship which used to exist.

Tolkien had a much darker view of change than Rich Burlew does, and that is based on his fundamentally different view of society and of human nature.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

I don't think it'll count as "mutually assured destruction" if launching all the nukes turns out to be the actual plan, personally.

Yeah, that sounds more like a murder-suicide. Mass-murder suicide is still murder-suicide.

Also, Tatooine didn't have tattooing, but the bomb-in-head-implant market was apparently thriving.

[Fyraltari]

Duck my autocorrect.


:smallconfused: Is this actual incomprehension or anger at seeing a criticism of LotR?
Mostly the former but I’d be lying if I didn’t admit that a bit of the latter didn’t pre-emptively creep in there.

[zimmerwald1915]

So does the right answer mean "Never reform ever"? It looks to me, rather, as if the answer was MORE reform, not less.
It is to say that mere reform, particularly the sort that amounts to a couple well-intentioned individuals doing what they can, is inadequate to the task.

[Peelee]

It is to say that mere reform, particularly the sort that amounts to a couple well-intentioned individuals doing what they can, is inadequate to the task.

Eh, outside factors introduce chaos into the system. I say to the well-intentioned individual doing what he can.:smallsmile:

[hroþila]

in response to me: "So I don't think Rich's underlying theme is nearly as conservative as, say, Tolkien's." )

Rich recognizes the need for change. The people of Azure City get slaughtered , in part, because they won't change. The Elvish resistance is quashed, in part, because it won't change. This entire discussion of quiddities and the need for a fourth is an indicator that, in Rich's world, change is a good thing.

That's a very different view of Tolkien's Middle-Earth.

Because Middle-Earth is not the infinity-plus-one attempt of a divine committee wrangling among themselves to produce a workable world. Middle-Earth is the creation of a single , perfect being, which is Eru Illuvatar. The only discord from this vision is introduced by rebels such as Melkor.

Thus, in the world of middle-earth, ALL change is evil. The only good change is to restore the original vision of what used to be before the fall. But whenever anyone tries to change anything, it always makes things worse. Sandyman's mill is evil. Goblins and their machines are evil. Industry and technology is evil. Even Aragorn is not really a change in the positive sense as it is a restoration of the old kingship which used to exist.

Tolkien had a much darker view of change than Rich Burlew does, and that is based on his fundamentally different view of society and of human nature.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Tolkien's works are very conservative, but I think this analysis misses the mark.

Change isn't necessarily evil in Middle-earth, it depends on what the motivation for that change is and on how it affects others. For example, Fëanor's many contributions to Eldarin culture included many technological advances which were celebrated both in-universe and by the narrative. Meanwhile, Orkish machines are evil because they were developed solely to inflict pain, and Saruman was condemned by the narrative because he put technological progress ahead of the well-being and dignity of the children of Ilúvatar.

Middle-earth was never meant to be a static original and perfect vision, it was always intended to be a developing story where the Elves would get the world ready for the Men, for which change is inherently necessary. The Eldar of the Third Age "fell" because they tried to stop change and basically time itself by using the Three, thus delaying the moment they'd have to leave Middle-earth to the Men, which was ultimately an act of rebellion against Ilúvatar.

Furthermore, while Middle-earth is certainly the creation of a single, perfect being, it is not his vision - it's the vision of the Ainur, who are not perfect. Ilúvatar even allowed for substantial changes, like the creation of the Dwarves by Aulë or the downfall of Númenor.

[Fyraltari]

in response to me: "So I don't think Rich's underlying theme is nearly as conservative as, say, Tolkien's." )

Rich recognizes the need for change. The people of Azure City get slaughtered , in part, because they won't change. The Elvish resistance is quashed, in part, because it won't change. This entire discussion of quiddities and the need for a fourth is an indicator that, in Rich's world, change is a good thing.

That's a very different view of Tolkien's Middle-Earth.

Because Middle-Earth is not the infinity-plus-one attempt of a divine committee wrangling among themselves to produce a workable world. Middle-Earth is the creation of a single , perfect being, which is Eru Illuvatar. The only discord from this vision is introduced by rebels such as Melkor.

Thus, in the world of middle-earth, ALL change is evil. The only good change is to restore the original vision of what used to be before the fall. But whenever anyone tries to change anything, it always makes things worse. Sandyman's mill is evil. Goblins and their machines are evil. Industry and technology is evil. Even Aragorn is not really a change in the positive sense as it is a restoration of the old kingship which used to exist.

Tolkien had a much darker view of change than Rich Burlew does, and that is based on his fundamentally different view of society and of human nature.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
I understand your interpretation but I respectfully disagree.
Aulë and Yavanna creating the Dwarves and Ents was Good. The Dùnedains déglingue Nùmenor was Good. Sam planting a mallorn in the Shire where none was seen before was Good.

From Morgoth’s attempts to burn and freeze water away from existence rain and ice were created. From Fëanor’s rébellion the greatest tales of the Elves were sung. From Sauron’s attempts to conquer Middle-Earth, those who opposed him grew (especially the Hobbits) grew stronger and wiser.

According to Tolkien’s worldview there can be no deviation from Eru’s plan since he is the source of everything, he tells Melkor so in Ainulindalë after Melkor’s own music ‘accidentally’ complimented Eru’s at some points. So there is no rebels who bring change to his design and are therefore evil. There are only rebels who struggle in vain and end up doing what he wanted them to in the end.

It is true that Tolkien’s work are filled to the brim with nostalgia. But I think that’s the nostalgia who says ‘there were good things that no longer exist’ rather than the one who says ‘the things that were before were better and we should go back’.

[Ibrinar]

So, yeah ... what was that with us being over the bulk of the tension and drama, just because the big main villain Lurkon got overwhelmed and destroyed?

Seems there's still plenty of messy death and destruction yet to go before the actual vote on ending the world is stopped and resolved.



"I thought vampires were supposed to be free-willed undead."
"We are, and I have freely chosen to serve." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1005.html)

No idea who you are addressing but since I said something similiar last thread: Dwarves getting killed was entirely in my expectations so for me at least nothing has changed.

[Fitzclowningham]

I'm kind of surprised Madame Clan Leader was so quickly dominated by a low-level spawn/vamp. Being a powerful leader, she should have had formidable willpower. Not to mention the age bonuses to Wisdom. Lucky rolls, plot, etc., I get it, but I think it would have been interesting watching her resist for a bit longer.

[Kish]

Indeed, I remember an argument about whether we were close to the end of the current book, and whether we were past the book's climax...

...but I don't remember anyone saying "the next strip will feature the remaining vampires falling over without any casualties," or anything like it.

[understatement]

Dang, I liked the daughter. At least she gets to go to Valhalla.

I hope the Exarch goes out the way Kubota did, but with Durkon unceremoniously zapping him with his new hammer.

[Peelee]

I'm kind of surprised Madame Clan Leader was so quickly dominated by a low-level spawn/vamp. Being a powerful leader

Yeah I'm gonna need a citation on being a powerful leader. She's wealthy, and has societal influence, but I doubt there's a lot of class levels there.

[zimmerwald1915]

Dang, I liked the daughter. At least she gets to go to Valhalla.

I hope the Exarch goes out the way Kubota did, but with Durkon unceremoniously zapping him with his new hammer.
Kubota went out as a demonstration of his killer's moral fall. Surely you don't want that for Durkon :smalleek:

[St Fan]

I'm kind of surprised Madame Clan Leader was so quickly dominated by a low-level spawn/vamp. Being a powerful leader, she should have had formidable willpower. Not to mention the age bonuses to Wisdom. Lucky rolls, plot, etc., I get it, but I think it would have been interesting watching her resist for a bit longer.

Even with age modifiers, wisdom that started abysmal can only get average. And being old or a powerful leader doesn't necessarily mean you're high-level. She could be quite low-level, but from such a rich and powerful family that she never needed to work in her life. Hence her power being entirely political.

[LadyEowyn]

You might not be, but the story certainly seems to be pushing the narrative of stopping the bleeding first - that is to say, prioritizing the defense of the status quo over campaigning for a positive vision.
Do you think so with regards to the whole story, or just this dwarf-focused arc?

I felt like the new information that the Order can only save the world by working with Redcloak fundamentally changed the overarching story from “protect the status quo” to “the world can only be saved by making it more just”. Because the only way they’re getting Redcloak on side is if the goblins’ grievances are addressed. That kind of a resolution would also be strongly in line with Rich’s stated views and with HTPGHS.

That’s why I’m so excited about that particular twist/exposition dump.

I would also be surprised if the story ends without the dwarves’ situation being addressed, even if that doesn’t happen in this book.

[zimmerwald1915]

I felt like the new information that the Order can only save the world by working with Redcloak fundamentally changed the overarching story from “protect the status quo” to “the world can only be saved by making it more just”. Because the only way they’re getting Redcloak on side is if the goblins’ grievances are addressed.
This is called co-optation, and it is to be abhorred, as it merely reinforces the existing order of things by creating new stakeholders, rather than replacing injustice with justice.

[woweedd]

This is called co-optation, and it is to be abhorred, as it merely reinforces the existing order of things by creating new stakeholders, rather than replacing injustice with justice.
What alternate stranger would you suggest? Because Redcloak's only other plan is..nto the best.

[Ruck]

Kubota went out as a demonstration of his killer's moral fall. Surely you don't want that for Durkon :smalleek:

Well, he also went out as a demonstration of how manipulating the law to protect himself from the consequences of the Evil was doing wouldn't save him.

[LadyEowyn]

This is called co-optation, and it is to be abhorred, as it merely reinforces the existing order of things by creating new stakeholders, rather than replacing injustice with justice.
I would think co-optation is getting someone on side without addressing the larger political issue they’re championing, either via essentially bribing them or by offering a minor improvement that doesn’t real deal with the larger problem.

Winning someone’s support via helping them achieve their goal and create a better world would seem to be the definition of a win-win.

My favoured way of addressing the Snarl situation is basically taking the Plan and flipping it to use carrots rather than sticks: instead of “treat goblinoids equally or we release the Snarl” it becomes “treat goblinoids equally and we can permanently contain the Snarl and end the cycle of worlds being destroyed”.

[zimmerwald1915]

What alternate stranger would you suggest? Because Redcloak's only other plan is..nto the best.
It seems to be working well enough, actually, if it's gotten the powers that be to consider trying to co-opt the Dark One. Full steam ahead.

[zimmerwald1915]

I would think co-optation is getting someone on side without addressing the larger political issue they’re championing, either via essentially bribing them or by offering a minor improvement that doesn’t real deal with the larger problem.

Winning someone’s support via helping them achieve their goal and create a better world would seem to be the definition of a win-win.
The former is always sold as the latter. Don't trust it. Ever.

[Snails]

Thus, in the world of middle-earth, ALL change is evil. The only good change is to restore the original vision of what used to be before the fall. But whenever anyone tries to change anything, it always makes things worse. Sandyman's mill is evil. Goblins and their machines are evil. Industry and technology is evil. Even Aragorn is not really a change in the positive sense as it is a restoration of the old kingship which used to exist.

It is not because change is inherently bad, but because the Middle Earth we see is in the final stages of the Long Defeat. Millenia of war had worn down the civilized inhabited lands to a rump maybe a tenth or twentieth of was they once were. Eastern Gondor was the bread basket and wealth of Gondor, and that has been abandoned except as a militarized buffer zone for at least a thousand years.

The first War of the Ring is only the biggest one that can even be remembered in common lore, but there were many many wars since. Presumably the Nazgul raise up an orc army every century or so to knock over any "anthill" that looks like it might someday grow strong enough to stand on its own feet.

Sandyman himself is the problem, not the Mill. Because there is no king to bring justice to the Shire, it takes only a little wealth to hire ruffians, and then rule and exploit the locals.

[Snails]

The former is always sold as the latter. Don't trust it. Ever.

I expect Redcloak possesses paranoia sufficient to that cause.

[woweedd]

It seems to be working well enough, actually, if it's gotten the powers that be to consider trying to co-opt the Dark One. Full steam ahead.
That's the plan that, if we're lucky, ends with the Dark One having control of a god-killing abomination, and, if we're not, ends with the entire world dying, correct?

[Wysper]

One thing I don't quite get, and I hope the Giant addresses somehow is, back when Malack was killed, Durkula was freed from being his thrall.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html

Wouldn't killing Durkula do the same things to these Vamps? Including the ones at the godsmoot?

[Sindeloke]

It seems to be working well enough, actually, if it's gotten the powers that be to consider trying to co-opt the Dark One. Full steam ahead.

There's nothing in the story to imply that Thor and Loki weren't kicking around the idea to make a 4-quiddity gate before Redcloak was even born.

[zimmerwald1915]

There's nothing in the story to imply that Thor and Loki weren't kicking around the idea to make a 4-quiddity gate before Redcloak was even born.
It's strongly implied that Loki, at least, thought of that pretty idea shortly after The Dark One's ascension. However, no one did anything about it until the Plan started bearing fruit. Funny, that.

[Peelee]

One thing I don't quite get, and I hope the Giant addresses somehow is, back when Malack was killed, Durkula was freed from being his thrall.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html

Wouldn't killing Durkula do the same things to these Vamps? Including the ones at the godsmoot?

Why do you think the vamps were still thralled instead of immediately freed? Even if they were, why would being matter if they decided to serve Hel anyway?

5 gold on it never being addressed because it doesn't need to be addressed

[LadyEowyn]

That's the plan that, if we're lucky, ends with the Dark One having control of a god-killing abomination, and, if we're not, ends with the entire world dying, correct?
The Snarl can’t be controlled. What we’d have is a situation where the gods had to choose between dying and giving the goblins decent treatment. If they’ve got any sense at all, they’ll see the latter is preferable; if not, if they prefer oppressing goblins to the survival of themselves and the world, I’d say the responsibility for that is mainly on them, not on Redcloak and the Dark One.

The Dark One, for his part, has an incentive not to push his demands too far (e.g., “goblins rule the world”) lest the gods decide they’d rather risk calling his bluff.

The Plan is weaker now that we know the backup plan (The Dark One participating in creating the next world) doesn’t work, but it’s still workable.

[Caerulea]

One thing I don't quite get, and I hope the Giant addresses somehow is, back when Malack was killed, Durkula was freed from being his thrall.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html

Wouldn't killing Durkula do the same things to these Vamps? Including the ones at the godsmoot?
Yes. They then, of their own free will and by Hel's preset personality and instructions, continued to serve the Exarch. Plus Hel probably promised them a nice position in her domain after the world ends.

That's the plan that, if we're lucky, ends with the Dark One having control of a god-killing abomination, and, if we're not, ends with the entire world dying, correct?
Not just dying, having their souls eaten. Even worse.

—Caerulea

[woweedd]

The Snarl can’t be controlled. What we’d have is a situation where the gods had to choose between dying and giving the goblins decent treatment. If they’ve got any sense at all, they’ll see the latter is preferable; if not, if they prefer oppressing goblins to the survival of themselves and the world, I’d say the responsibility for that is mainly on them, not on Redcloak and the Dark One.

The Dark One, for his part, has an incentive not to push his demands too far (e.g., “goblins rule the world”) lest the gods decide they’d rather risk calling his bluff.

The Plan is weaker now that we know the backup plan (The Dark One participating in creating the next world) doesn’t work, but it’s still workable.
Just so we're clear, Redcloak has stated he'd be perfectly fine with a scenario where the Snarl destroys the entire world, so long as The Dark One gets a sy in the next. Putting aside why that wouldn't work, it's also an excellent example of what I said earlier, vs-a-vis Redcloak caring more about hypothetical future goblins then actual present goblins. Also, The Dark One is still Evil: I don't see a plan where he gets access to a god-killing abomination working out well.

[RatElemental]

It's strongly implied that Loki, at least, thought of that pretty idea shortly after The Dark One's ascension. However, no one did anything about it until the Plan started bearing fruit. Funny, that.

There's no indication that the gate plan is the reason the gods want to talk to the Dark One. Indeed, we know Loki tried to keep communication open with the intention of bringing him on board with the whole snarl thing before the he even knew about it, and also that the gate plan is a reason at least one god doesn't want to compromise with him anymore.

Source for both of those claims here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html).

[danielxcutter]

Pro-tip: making that kind of joke in certain eateries of Ankh-Morpork (ones that feature both ketchup and rat in the menu) is legal grounds for suicide.

Grey Wolf

*sniggers*

Oh yeah, I've been binging the Discworld books recently; I'm on A Hat Full Of Sky right now. If I recall correctly, that part was still before Carrot and Vetinari discussed the new arrangements for the Watch, though to be fair it was already a lot better than it was at the start of Guards! Guards! thanks to, yes, Carrot.

[Jasdoif]

It's strongly implied that Loki, at least, thought of that pretty idea shortly after The Dark One's ascension. However, no one did anything about it until the Plan started bearing fruit. Funny, that.I presume needing a 9th-level slot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html) puts some sort of requirement on the highest spell level available (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html) to the Dark One's clerics.

The interplay between Redcloak gaining levels and Redcloak pursuing the Plan is probably too intricate to rule out everyone seeing whichever one they want to see as the primary.


The Snarl can’t be controlled. What we’d have is a situation where the gods had to choose between dying and giving the goblins decent treatment. If they’ve got any sense at all, they’ll see the latter is preferable; if not, if they prefer oppressing goblins to the survival of themselves and the world, I’d say the responsibility for that is mainly on them, not on Redcloak and the Dark One.

The Dark One, for his part, has an incentive not to push his demands too far (e.g., “goblins rule the world”) lest the gods decide they’d rather risk calling his bluff.

The Plan is weaker now that we know the backup plan (The Dark One participating in creating the next world) doesn’t work, but it’s still workable.If the Dark One's plan is to kill gods with the Snarl (and the "blackmail" thing is a pretense), these are all nonissues.

[Aveline]

It's strongly implied that Loki, at least, thought of that pretty idea shortly after The Dark One's ascension. However, no one did anything about it until the Plan started bearing fruit. Funny, that.

Didn't Loki necessarily inform the Dark One of the nature of the rifts before the Dark One could even come up with the Plan? I have two plausible explanations: Loki intended to cooperate with the Dark One regarding the four-color gate, or he didn't and he wants an abundance of distrust because he's Loki.

And besides, the Dark One probably never had a cleric capable of sealing rifts before Redcloak donned the Crimson Mantle and leveled up.

[zimmerwald1915]

Didn't Loki necessarily inform the Dark One of the nature of the rifts before the Dark One could even come up with the Plan? I have two plausible explanations: Loki intended to cooperate with the Dark One regarding the four-color gate, or he didn't and he wants an abundance of distrust because he's Loki.
No. The Dark One found out about what would become Lirian's rift when one of his clerics fell into it. Loki's role until that point, along with Rat's and Tiamat's, had just been to ensure the Dark One survived.

[Rogar Demonblud]

More into the Yardbirds (any other nominations as "world's greatest rock 'n roll band are lies I tell you!)

Blessed Bragi, no. Cream rocks and rules.

[Cavenskull]

Perhaps I missed something (I only saw the IV-VI) but I don't recall tattooing being mentioned, certainly not as a Jedi tradition.

—Caerulea
I'm pretty sure that was an auto-correct errror. It was probably meant to say Tatooine, not Tattooing


Dang, I liked the daughter. At least she gets to go to Valhalla.

I hope the Exarch goes out the way Kubota did, but with Durkon unceremoniously zapping him with his new hammer.
My money is on her death being a way for the OOTS to get intel on the vampires' activities, since Minrah will have all night to talk to new arrivals at Valhalla before being rezzed.

[Aveline]

No. The Dark One found out about what would become Lirian's rift when one of his clerics fell into it. Loki's role until that point, along with Rat's and Tiamat's, had just been to ensure the Dark One survived.

I don't have my copy on hand. According to Redcloak, when did the Dark One learn what exactly the rifts are? Well, singular rift, as far as he knew. I haven't read SoD in a while, but surely TDO didn't plan to exploit a god-eater without first knowing about the god-eater.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Without dates because I don't remember them, but it goes something like:

goblin cleric killed by rift that becomes Lirian's Gate
Dark One queries allies Tiamat and Rat
Dark One concocts The Plan

[Caerulea]

I'm pretty sure that was an auto-correct errror. It was probably meant to say Tatooine, not Tattooing

Duck my autocorrect.
[That means I realise that it was an autocorrect error.]
Incidentally Fyraltari's response conjured the image of an old bearded bald man throwing a rubber duck at somebody. Which was very funny.

ETA: I checked Start of Darkness, so here's the timeline.


The Dark One rises. Thor + unspecified gods want to destroy him, Loki & Tiamet defend him.
The Dark One is given control of Goblinkind's destiny.
(35 years from Redcloak and Xykon meeting) One of The Dark One's clerics discovers Lirian's rift, sends a chicken through, and then gets eaten.
The Dark One asks his allies amongst the other gods what the heck is that? To which they respond you don't want to mess with this thing.
They tell him what the thing is.
The Dark One makes the plan, and the crimson mantel.


—Caerulea

[Ganbatte]

One thing I don't quite get, and I hope the Giant addresses somehow is, back when Malack was killed, Durkula was freed from being his thrall.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html

Wouldn't killing Durkula do the same things to these Vamps? Including the ones at the godsmoot?

They're all dwarves, meaning that Hel got to place her own dark spirits inside of each. Even after no longer being thralls they would still follow her will.

[Peelee]

They're all dwarves, meaning that Hel got to place her own dark spirits inside of each. Even after no longer being thralls they would still follow her will.

If they wanted to. Just because they're vampire clerics made by Hel doesn't mean they have to have anything to do with her. They all just liked what they heard.

[woweedd]

If they wanted to. Just because they're vampire clerics made by Hel doesn't mean they have to have anything to do with her. They all just liked what they heard.
Indeed. Greg was fanatically loyal to Hel because he's a twisted reflection of Durkon, and Durkon wads fanatically loyal to HIS God, so Greg followed suit. If say, Roy became a Vampire, he'd probaly be just as reverent towards Hel as he was towards The Gods he followed in life. Which is to say: Not very.

[Kish]

I think "creating new stakeholders" is the page Redcloak has been on since the start of Start of Darkness. So to speak.

"The Dark One will make sure no humanoid race will get the shaft in the next world" is functionally identical to, "The Dark One will make sure we, and the orcs and kobolds, and everyone else we recognize as like us, gets to join in hunting the sapient nonhumanoids for XP in the next world."

[Rrmcklin]

If they wanted to. Just because they're vampire clerics made by Hel doesn't mean they have to have anything to do with her. They all just liked what they heard.


Indeed. Greg was fanatically loyal to Hel because he's a twisted reflection of Durkon, and Durkon wads fanatically loyal to HIS God, so Greg followed suit. If say, Roy became a Vampire, he'd probaly be just as reverent towards Hel as he was towards The Gods he followed in life. Which is to say: Not very.

In line with this, since all, or at least a lot, of the people turned were already clerics/deeply religious, them going ahead with becoming Hel worshipers makes sense even after being freed.

[B. Dandelion]

I think "creating new stakeholders" is the page Redcloak has been on since the start of Start of Darkness. So to speak.

"The Dark One will make sure no humanoid race will get the shaft in the next world" is functionally identical to, "The Dark One will make sure we, and the orcs and kobolds, and everyone else we recognize as like us, gets to join in hunting the sapient nonhumanoids for XP in the next world."

I agree with you more often than not, but man, I still think this reading is a major stretch.

If the point was to indicate that Redcloak only cares about his in-group and is unconcerned with the larger concept of justice, it would have been much simpler to have him say that the Dark One would make sure no goblins would get the shaft in the next world. We know there were non-goblins created as sentient XP fodder, so it'd be obvious that he was specifically excluding them from his consideration.

By contrast there is no specific mention of non-humanoids being created as XP fodder. The humanoids were the ones specifically screwed over, so he says that they won't be getting screwed over this time. I don't see why that should imply that they will have no choice but to make another race of sapient beings to screw over and that Redcloak is indicating his support for that notion.

[Personification]

Yes, but at an unspecified point in the future. My intention now is to drag that date as far forward towards the present as I can.



Entire threads have been dedicated to this topic (and the related one "Where should you stop reading"). My own rule of thumb answer? Reaper Man.

"Guards! Guards!" and "Wyrd Sisters" are also perfectly valid too.

Grey Wolf

You would skip Equal Rites and Mort?

[Kish]

I agree with you more often than not, but man, I still think this reading is a major stretch.

If the point was to indicate that Redcloak only cares about his in-group and is unconcerned with the larger concept of justice, it would have been much simpler to have him say that the Dark One would make sure no goblins would get the shaft in the next world. We know there were non-goblins created as sentient XP fodder, so it'd be obvious that he was specifically excluding them from his consideration.

By contrast there is no specific mention of non-humanoids being created as XP fodder. The humanoids were the ones specifically screwed over, so he says that they won't be getting screwed over this time. I don't see why that should imply that they will have no choice but to make another race of sapient beings to screw over and that Redcloak is indicating his support for that notion.
If Redcloak meant "no race will get the shaft," why would he stick any qualifier in there--much less one that explicitly leaves out a number of races that exist in the OotS world already? Displacer beasts and worgs, for two examples that have been explicitly presented and thus can't really be argued to not exist in this particular D&D world. (I'm leaving out dragons because the existence of the gods Dragon and Tiamat makes their situation...at least less clear-cut than that of Joe and Dave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0210.html).)

If Redcloak had said "no goblins will get the shaft," he would be, in effect, shouting at the camera, "And what anything noble-sounding I say actually means is that I want to be able to say 'screw you, Jack, I got mine.'" It would turn him from a well-intentioned and nuanced hypocrite to someone nearly as mustache-twirling as Xykon or Tarquin.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You would skip Equal Rites and Mort?

Yes, obviously. I can't stand Eskarina, Mort OR Ysabell. Teenagers, specially bratty ones, are insufferable. There is other reasons too, but in the end it is still a rule of thumb, and I feel that the best place to start is the three I mentioned.

Grey Wolf

[Caerulea]

Yes, obviously. I can't stand Eskarina, Mort OR Ysabell. Teenagers, specially bratty ones, are insufferable. There is other reasons too, but in the end it is still a rule of thumb, and I feel that the best place to start is the three I mentioned.

Grey Wolf
You mentioned a debate on where to stop. What would you recommend, for when I (and others) finally get around to reading them?

—Caerulea

[Potatopeelerkin]

Noooooo! Green-jacket didn't even get to have a name.
Ah well. At least she's going to Valhalla, presumably.

The Exarch clearly went to the Sithrak school of religion.
"Convert to Hel- the goddess who hates you unconditionally!"

[deuterio12]

I agree with you more often than not, but man, I still think this reading is a major stretch.

If the point was to indicate that Redcloak only cares about his in-group and is unconcerned with the larger concept of justice, it would have been much simpler to have him say that the Dark One would make sure no goblins would get the shaft in the next world. We know there were non-goblins created as sentient XP fodder, so it'd be obvious that he was specifically excluding them from his consideration.

By contrast there is no specific mention of non-humanoids being created as XP fodder. The humanoids were the ones specifically screwed over, so he says that they won't be getting screwed over this time. I don't see why that should imply that they will have no choice but to make another race of sapient beings to screw over and that Redcloak is indicating his support for that notion.


What about animals and assorted low-level non-humanoid critters? They seem to get an even shorter end of the stick, hunted for both food/pelts/materials and XP fodder.

Besides cats I guess. They hunt humanoid commoners.

Speaking of which what about all the monsters that have humanoids as their primary food source? Like vampires for example.

[B. Dandelion]

If Redcloak meant "no race will get the shaft," why would he stick any qualifier in there--much less one that explicitly leaves out a number of races that exist in the OotS world already? Displacer beasts and worgs, for two examples that have been explicitly presented and thus can't really be argued to not exist in this particular D&D world. (I'm leaving out dragons because the existence of the gods Dragon and Tiamat makes their situation...at least less clear-cut than that of Joe and Dave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0210.html).)

If Redcloak had said "no goblins will get the shaft," he would be, in effect, shouting at the camera, "And what anything noble-sounding I say actually means is that I want to be able to say 'screw you, Jack, I got mine.'" It would turn him from a well-intentioned and nuanced hypocrite to someone nearly as mustache-twirling as Xykon or Tarquin.

I don't really see much daylight between him being willing to screw over only non-goblin sapients and being willing to screw over only non-humanoid sapients. In either case he would be announcing to the camera that he has no genuine principles that are offended by the situation. XP-fodder sapients are fine with him, in theory, there's nothing innately awful about the gods betraying their own creations. He just doesn't want certain preferred people screwed over, and in one case that group of people is somewhat larger.

It definitely would have been clearer to simply say "no one will get the shaft" rather than "no humanoids," but I do think there is reason he might cite them in particular, because they were the only ones specifically mentioned to have been screwed over the first time. If sapient non-humanoids exist in this world and weren't given a raw deal this time, he just might not be worried that they would get screwed over the next time, and thus not mention them specifically. Unless we presume that sapient XP-fodder races are a necessity of world-building, but that wasn't exactly the impression I had from the crayons.

[M.A.D]

Hmm, mechanically I wonder if they failed to dominate her or just decided she wasn't important enough to even try. It looks like they dominated the other bodyguard.

It's only the three vampires, right? The Ex-Exarch, the nameless one he took with him, and the one who fled the other battle.

She had a pretty good Will saving throws. Probably built up her stats from having to listen to her mother all the time.

[Anansiil]

Aww, sounds like logic right out of my HR department. I feel like I'm back in my non-profit!

[danielxcutter]

Yes, obviously. I can't stand Eskarina, Mort OR Ysabell. Teenagers, specially bratty ones, are insufferable. There is other reasons too, but in the end it is still a rule of thumb, and I feel that the best place to start is the three I mentioned.

Grey Wolf

Personally, my uncle gave me his used Kindle with almost the entire series(aside from some of the later ones at the end), so I just started reading them from The Color of Magic.

[ijuinkun]

Generalizations are dangerous, especially when dealing with a period that is generally considered to have lasted some 1000 years and that spans such a large area. By the late Middle Ages, at least in some regions, cities often heavily regulated the carrying of weapons and outright banned everything larger than a knife of this or that size, and occasionally even banned all weapons altogether.

Also, if you were of sufficiently low social rank in some places, you had no legal right to self-defense. If a nobleman decided that he wanted to cut your head off because he was annoyed at you, then you were expected to submit, and resisting was itself treated as a criminal offense.

[faustin]

Just so we're clear, Redcloak has stated he'd be perfectly fine with a scenario where the Snarl destroys the entire world, so long as The Dark One gets a sy in the next. Putting aside why that wouldn't work, it's also an excellent example of what I said earlier, vs-a-vis Redcloak caring more about hypothetical future goblins then actual present goblins. Also, The Dark One is still Evil: I don't see a plan where he gets access to a god-killing abomination working out well.

I have been thinking about the eventual parlay between Durkon and Redcloak.

My craziest theory is that the Dark One will eventually agree to Thor's terms, but Redcloak will not .
Sounds insane? Maybe, but the way I see RC he is too caught up with "The Plan must continue", the sunk cost fallacy and his own guilt for the murder of Right Eye to being able to stop now regardless his own god's will.

[RatElemental]

I have been thinking about the eventual parlay between Durkon and Redcloak.

My craziest theory is that the Dark One will eventually agree to Thor's terms, but Redcloak will not .
Sounds insane? Maybe, but the way I see RC he is too caught up with "The Plan must continue", the sunk cost fallacy and his own guilt for the murder of Right Eye to being able to stop now regardless his own god's will.

You just described one of the few instances where a cleric can fall.

[woweedd]

I have been thinking about the eventual parlay between Durkon and Redcloak.

My craziest theory is that the Dark One will eventually agree to Thor's terms, but Redcloak will not .
Sounds insane? Maybe, but the way I see RC he is too caught up with "The Plan must continue", the sunk cost fallacy and his own guilt for the murder of Right Eye to being able to stop now regardless his own god's will.
All indication is that, in terms of Evil, The Dark One outpaces Redcloak to a fair degree. That said, yeah, I very much doubt this story will end with Redcloak getting everything she ever wanted. Partly, as mentioned, he's still a slave-holding jerk who's content to throw away the lives of his men for the sake of a "Greater Good' that may never come, and partly because, given the direction of his arc, particularly him talking to "Right-Eye" in the mirror, saying "It'll all be worth it", I doubt the conclusion of the narrative is gonna be that it really WAS all worth it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You mentioned a debate on where to stop. What would you recommend, for when I (and others) finally get around to reading them?

—Caerulea

"Thud!" although, again, please understand that this is a rule of thumb and not an universal truth (as evidenced by people already popping up to pick other starting positions).


Personally, my uncle gave me his used Kindle with almost the entire series(aside from some of the later ones at the end), so I just started reading them from The Color of Magic.

I tried that. It caused me to write off Pratchett for years. It is not representative of his latter (and more extensive body of work) style, and unless you are really familiar with the things he is parodying, it falls quite flat. But again: rule of thumb. THis is not the palce to discuss the specifics, we have had plenty of threads in the Media subforum for that.

Grey Wolf

[littlebum2002]

Yes, obviously. I can't stand Eskarina, Mort OR Ysabell. Teenagers, specially bratty ones, are insufferable. There is other reasons too, but in the end it is still a rule of thumb, and I feel that the best place to start is the three I mentioned.

Grey Wolf

I wouldn't say that I don't like Equal Rites or Mort, but I will say that they were both by far the least good books for their respective protagonists. You could skip them and start at Wyrd Sisters and Reaper Man and not miss very much.

I also want to add to your list the Nac Mac Feegles and Tiffany Aching who are insufferable and who ruined my favorite storyline (the witches)


"Thud!" although, again, please understand that this is a rule of thumb and not an universal truth (as evidenced by people already popping up to pick other starting positions).



I can't say that I agree with this assessment, since I just realized I haven't actually read any books after Thud! so I don't know if they're good or not.

(Reading the list again, I have read and enjoyed Making Money)


I tried that. It caused me to write off Pratchett for years. It is not representative of his latter (and more extensive body of work) style, and unless you are really familiar with the things he is parodying, it falls quite flat. But again: rule of thumb. THis is not the palce to discuss the specifics, we have had plenty of threads in the Media subforum for that.

Grey Wolf

And again I have to agree. The first two books were pretty terrible and just so much different from the rest of the series it's almost like they're a different thing altogether.


EDIT: I noticed that two of your starting places are after Pyramids (including Guards Guards which came right after it). Does this mean you did not enjoy that book, or is it just not a "good place to start"?

[LadyEowyn]

In my opinion there’s absolutely no need to read the Discworld books in order. I started with Thud! and loved it.

My suggestion would be to pick a few books from different character-group categories and see which you like, and the. read the other books in that grouping. For example, I like the Watch, find the witches passable, and can’t stand Rincewind.

There’s also other ways to group the books, like the ones that are based around Earth pop culture (Moving Pictures, Soul Music) and the ones that are satires on classic literature (Wyrd Sisters, Night Watch, Maskerade).

Basically, start in the middle, find something you like, branch out from there.

[Peelee]

I don't really see much daylight between him being willing to screw over only non-goblin sapients and being willing to screw over only non-humanoid sapients. In either case he would be announcing to the camera that he has no genuine principles that are offended by the situation. XP-fodder sapients are fine with him, in theory, there's nothing innately awful about the gods betraying their own creations. He just doesn't want certain preferred people screwed over, and in one case that group of people is somewhat larger.

It definitely would have been clearer to simply say "no one will get the shaft" rather than "no humanoids," but I do think there is reason he might cite them in particular, because they were the only ones specifically mentioned to have been screwed over the first time. If sapient non-humanoids exist in this world and weren't given a raw deal this time, he just might not be worried that they would get screwed over the next time, and thus not mention them specifically. Unless we presume that sapient XP-fodder races are a necessity of world-building, but that wasn't exactly the impression I had from the crayons.
Given the rarher large gulf between Redcloak's words and Redcloak's actions concerning hobgoblins at the very least, I see no reason to take his states motivation at face value.

I have been thinking about the eventual parlay between Durkon and Redcloak.

My craziest theory is that the Dark One will eventually agree to Thor's terms, but Redcloak will not .
Sounds insane? Maybe, but the way I see RC he is too caught up with "The Plan must continue", the sunk cost fallacy and his own guilt for the murder of Right Eye to being able to stop now regardless his own god's will.

I also think this will happen. Redcloak mentioned the only feedback he gets that his god is still pleased is that he gets spells, so getting that taken away would be quite jarring, as well as foreshadowed.

[Dungeon-noob]

Something i just realized on the nth reread of this comic: the lower cleric(s?) of Hel are upset that people get the naming wrong, because that is actively hurting their goddess: keeping her from recieving Worship, as per the divine food diagram. Goes to show how far she's fallen: not even people in her own hemisphere, who worship the pantheon to which she belongs, Worship her, but (literally) swear by the devil's domain instead.

I think Redcloak can go two ways: stay the way he is, fall, and die because of his flaws, as per the usual Giant paradigm, or take another route, which i find more likely. I think that between the Order trying to connect/open his eyes, the new information, and the built up feedback from everything that's happened, plus maybe the MitD or Xykon (inadvertantly) helping him realize what he's become, he can see what's going wrong and at least try to change. Helping the Order would be the place to start, and then if he's still alive depending on events in the last book, his epilogue might very well be walking the earth like V to try to atone for a burden of wrongs he might never be able to right. Or die a villian, as he's killed in events or loses the mantle and all that age catches up with him, who knows.

As for the Pratchett discussion, the first two/three books are indeed very different, but i enjoyed Mort a lot. Probably helps that i like Death a lot. I myself consider it a decent starting point, but i usually make a point of staying as close to the starting point of a series as i can. So take that for what you will.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(Reading the list again, I have read and enjoyed Making Money)
Making money is, to me, the first of the bad ones, which I define as books in which the antagonist is clearly not a threat.


EDIT: I noticed that two of your starting places are after Pyramids (including Guards Guards which came right after it). Does this mean you did not enjoy that book, or is it just not a "good place to start"?

I tend to forget it exists. I don't find it that funny, and it is not part of any of the continuities. It's not bad, just not the one I would think of when recommending a place to start.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

I also think this will happen. Redcloak mentioned the only feedback he gets that his god is still pleased is that he gets spells, so getting that taken away would be quite jarring, as well as foreshadowed.
Do you envision Redcloak eventually relenting, him being replaced by e.g. Jirix (this would require a time skip during the epilogue to allow him to level up, I guess), or just Thor's plan not quite being implemented?

[pendell]

I think "creating new stakeholders" is the page Redcloak has been on since the start of Start of Darkness. So to speak.


I'm pretty sure the vampires don't want more stakeholders. Stakeholders, get it?

...

Fine, fine.

I fail to see why co-optation is so much worse. When you have these many sapients all competing, of whom a third are diametrically opposed to justice and another third can be swayed either way, you're not going to get a just Prime Material world.

Real justice can only exist on the outer planes, in Celestia or in whatever the NG afterlife is. It might not even fully exist in the Happy Hunting Grounds, since chaotics are permitted to lie and steal and do all kinds of other things that push back against the idea of justice. Justice is what you get when society is lawful and good, without any evil stakeholders like Kubota to contaminate the societies they influence. You need both a lawful good framework and lawful good people to practice it.

Given these facts, given that one third of the creators of the world are evil , given that there are chaotics among neutral and good, the prime material plane is never going to be anything but an arena of struggle. A place where sapients live out their alignments and, by their example, capture souls into their world view. But a truly just order simply cannot exist there.

The only thing we CAN do is make the Prime Material plane a better place than it was. For example, by allowing goblinoids and other sentients full equality rather than life as walking XP.

And so the world becomes just a bit better -- that is, it is more just, so it is not "better" to everyone. The chaotic evil don't like the new place better with more equal and more fair treatment. But since the world is more solid and more snarlproof, it's objectively better in the only measure that all the deities can agree to.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Aveline]

Incidentally, as a programmer who struggles to explain to non-programmers the difference between Java and JavaScript (the latter was renamed from LiveScript to ride on Java's coattails), the irritation at conflating hell and Hel is deeply felt for me.

[Peelee]

Do you envision Redcloak eventually relenting, him being replaced by e.g. Jirix (this would require a time skip during the epilogue to allow him to level up, I guess), or just Thor's plan not quite being implemented?

Not the third one.

[Rrmcklin]

I don't imagine all the information about quiddity and how the Dark One is special will be pointless, but I also agree with the notion that Redcloak will see the light or end up being validated are not in the cards. How we get to that point could happen in any number of ways, though.

[B. Dandelion]

Given the rarher large gulf between Redcloak's words and Redcloak's actions concerning hobgoblins at the very least, I see no reason to take his states motivation at face value.

So, I've been slowly but surely trying to get the digital versions of the books despite the fact that I've already paid full price for the physical copies, because I need the updated commentary just that badly, okay? I got No Cure for the Paladin Blues earlier this month, and it was the last of the ones with new material that I bought, and in retrospect I wish it had been the first as it's got IMO the most interesting bits. One of them touches on the issue of Redcloak's treatment of the hobgoblins. I don't want to overstate it, because there isn't that much actually said, but from the sounds of it, he initially had Redcloak developing into a more significant character by having him explicitly follow in Xykon's footsteps. That was before plotting SoD, in which Redcloak became "a man who had sacrificed so much for his people". Post-Start of Darkness he moved Redcloak in the main strip away from that path, noting that the goblinoid-first mentality he's displayed ever since was more true to his first appearances anyway.

I've been thinking about it for a while. Obviously, the poor treatment of the hobgoblins is canon, it won't go away. But it is admittedly somewhat anomalous to his characterization post-SoD, and has never really been mentioned since having been dropped. So maybe don't assign too much weight to it when assessing Redcloak's overall character.

[Keltest]

So, I've been slowly but surely trying to get the digital versions of the books despite the fact that I've already paid full price for the physical copies, because I need the updated commentary just that badly, okay? I got No Cure for the Paladin Blues earlier this month, and it was the last of the ones with new material that I bought, and in retrospect I wish it had been the first as it's got IMO the most interesting bits. One of them touches on the issue of Redcloak's treatment of the hobgoblins. I don't want to overstate it, because there isn't that much actually said, but from the sounds of it, he initially had Redcloak developing into a more significant character by having him explicitly follow in Xykon's footsteps. That was before plotting SoD, in which Redcloak became "a man who had sacrificed so much for his people". Post-Start of Darkness he moved Redcloak in the main strip away from that path, noting that the goblinoid-first mentality he's displayed ever since was more true to his first appearances anyway.

I've been thinking about it for a while. Obviously, the poor treatment of the hobgoblins is canon, it won't go away. But it is admittedly somewhat anomalous to his characterization post-SoD, and has never really been mentioned since having been dropped. So maybe don't assign too much weight to it when assessing Redcloak's overall character.

It comes up again with the MITD's commentary on how the pan-goblinoid narrative is mostly just lip service though, so I don't think its meant to be ignored.

[Rrmcklin]

I've been thinking about it for a while. Obviously, the poor treatment of the hobgoblins is canon, it won't go away. But it is admittedly somewhat anomalous to his characterization post-SoD, and has never really been mentioned since having been dropped. So maybe don't assign too much weight to it when assessing Redcloak's overall character.

His treatment of the Hobgoblins was a character trait he had for hundreds of strips. It most certainly deserves to be assigned serious consideration of his character.

Specifically because it wasn't just "dropped", it was depicted as a major turning point for the character. Which I think was significant in another way because it marked a clear distinction between his racism being diminished while his speciesism remained as strong as ever, something that's directly acknowledged in the same comic.

[Caerulea]

Not the third one.
:elan: "Everyone knows that plans only work if you keep them a secret first!" (836)


Do you envision Redcloak eventually relenting, him being replaced by e.g. Jirix (this would require a time skip during the epilogue to allow him to level up, I guess), or just Thor's plan not quite being implemented?
I think Jirix is probably going to stay leader of Gobbotopia until the end of the story or Redcloak returns, the latter of which I don't think very likely. They will probably work something out with The Dark One, rather than Redcloak, who will then ask Redcloak to do it.

—Caerulea

[Peelee]

His treatment of the Hobgoblins was a character trait he had for hundreds of strips. It most certainly deserves to be assigned serious consideration of his character.

Specifically because it wasn't just "dropped", it was depicted as a major turning point for the character. Which I think was significant in another way because it marked a clear distinction between his racism being diminished while his speciesism remained as strong as ever, something that's directly acknowledged in the same comic.

Indeed. There's a reason I said "at least" about the hobgoblins; Redcloak's vision is exclusive, not inclusive. That he thought nothing of the hobgoblins until pure happenstance that directly benefitted him personally speaks ill of how much regard he really has for other humanoids in general, despite how he claims to feel.

[Fyraltari]

I’m pretty sure Red said ‘humanoids’ rather than ‘goblins’ because he was trying to get a human to join him.

[Kish]

While he was talking to his brother about the details of the plan he had explicitly hidden from Xykon, he carefully phrased what he was saying to avoid implying that the Dark One would be okay with the consistently most powerful and central of the core races getting the shaft in the next world?

I find that...unlikely.

[Fyraltari]

While he was talking to his brother about the details of the plan he had explicitly hidden from Xykon, he carefully phrased what he was saying to avoid implying that the Dark One would be okay with the consistently most powerful and central of the core races getting the shaft in the next world?

I find that...unlikely.

Ah, sorry. I’m not at home right now so I can’t check on my copy of the book (I’m on phone) and thought he said that to Xykon not Right-Eye.

[B. Dandelion]

His treatment of the Hobgoblins was a character trait he had for hundreds of strips. It most certainly deserves to be assigned serious consideration of his character.

Specifically because it wasn't just "dropped", it was depicted as a major turning point for the character. Which I think was significant in another way because it marked a clear distinction between his racism being diminished while his speciesism remained as strong as ever, something that's directly acknowledged in the same comic.

It was depicted as a major turning point. In one strip. It has never been mentioned since. Xykon's never remarked on how Redcloak was actually loosening up for a while and becoming tolerable to hang out with, what gives? Redcloak's never mentioned how a single moment really changed his whole perspective. I actually really liked 451 so it's not like I'm anxious to just chuck its impact overboard. I just want to understand how I'm supposed to be looking at things, so I will take cues from the commentary, and it's suggestive here. Not that canon should be disregarded, which I specifically said I wasn't doing (not that it ever seems to make a difference how carefully I couch things), but that the poor treatment of the hobgoblins long predates the characterization he was given in Start of Darkness and that SOD's characterization carries greater weight.

Certainly it is a little ridiculous to simply cite Redcloak's treatment of the hobgoblins some thirty years later as proof that what he said at age twenty is quite likely to be insincere. He did have principles. He became corrupt and lost sight of them. If he never really had principles at all then he wasn't much of a tragic villain, as nothing was really lost, just revealed.

[zimmerwald1915]

If he never really had principles at all then he wasn't much of a tragic villain, as nothing was really lost, just revealed.
That is the point people are making, yes.

[RoyGreenH]

Indeed. There's a reason I said "at least" about the hobgoblins; Redcloak's vision is exclusive, not inclusive. That he thought nothing of the hobgoblins until pure happenstance that directly benefitted him personally speaks ill of how much regard he really has for other humanoids in general, despite how he claims to feel.

This is why Redcloak is a tragic villain. He's driven by a reaction to a cosmic injustice that has made his race just cannon fodder for some adventurers, but he has adopted the same mindset of the gods which created his world.

As much as he claims to loathe Xykon for his callousness in sacrificing goblins (and hobgoblins, and pretty much everyone) for his personal goals (and sometimes just because he's bored) Redcloak is ALSO using goblins as cannon fodder for his ill-conceived plan.

He might be more considerate and thoughtful than Xykon (which isn't hard) but he still led thousands of goblins and hobgoblins to their deaths to avenge the deaths of some members of his family, and he killed his own brother and has made countless other goblins die to achieve control of the Gate, putting ALL goblinoids at risk of annihilation if the Snarl is released.

I don't think he's irredeemable, but he's certainly no better than the gods who created the goblins just to have their favorite creations level up quickly.

[The Shadow]

Also, if you were of sufficiently low social rank in some places, you had no legal right to self-defense. If a nobleman decided that he wanted to cut your head off because he was annoyed at you, then you were expected to submit, and resisting was itself treated as a criminal offense.

In Europe, outside of maybe Russia? Name three. I'm not aware of any place in medieval Europe in which defending oneself was illegal, nor in which a noble could legally up and kill someone without a trial.

That's not to say that terrible things didn't happen, or that the law was always properly enforced. But that the letter of the law allowed it? I am very dubious.

(Please realize that a great deal of lies about the medieval era have been told by later ones.)

[Kish]

That is the point people are making, yes.
I wouldn't go that far. Lots of people who aren't devoid of principles have an "I am for all the people!" attitude which gets beyond those who look like them on the most superficial level, but still conks out somewhere before reaching everyone who might be classified as "people." Redcloak, without realizing he was saying anything noteworthy himself, let slip that his understanding of the Plan offers no comfort to displacer beasts, worgs, otyughs, beholders, and the like.

Or for another example, a hypothetical person could balk at the concept that "race listed alignment is Always Evil" means "they are acceptable targets," arguing for treating orcs, and goblins, and black dragons, as people, and then get to undead and say, "Nah, it's naive and wrongheaded to treat a vampire like a person."

[Rrmcklin]

It was depicted as a major turning point. In one strip. It has never been mentioned since. Xykon's never remarked on how Redcloak was actually loosening up for a while and becoming tolerable to hang out with, what gives? Redcloak's never mentioned how a single moment really changed his whole perspective. I actually really liked 451 so it's not like I'm anxious to just chuck its impact overboard. I just want to understand how I'm supposed to be looking at things, so I will take cues from the commentary, and it's suggestive here. Not that canon should be disregarded, which I specifically said I wasn't doing (not that it ever seems to make a difference how carefully I couch things), but that the poor treatment of the hobgoblins long predates the characterization he was given in Start of Darkness and that SOD's characterization carries greater weight.

Certainly it is a little ridiculous to simply cite Redcloak's treatment of the hobgoblins some thirty years later as proof that what he said at age twenty is quite likely to be insincere. He did have principles. He became corrupt and lost sight of them. If he never really had principles at all then he wasn't much of a tragic villain, as nothing was really lost, just revealed.

Well, it's a good thing I never claimed Redcloak was completely devoid of principles then, isn't? And I don't think anyone else was actually doing that either (save maybe Zimmerworld, because that's his thing), so I don't know what you're arguing against?

Thinking about it now though, what exactly in Start of Darkness contradicts his treatment of the hobgoblins or makes you think he wouldn't treat them the same during that story as he did during the main story? Because, as far as I remember (I can go back and check later) none appear in the book, and are never mentioned.

[Keltest]

Well, it's a good thing I never claimed Redcloak never had principles then, isn't? And I don't think anyone else was actually doing that either (save maybe Zimmerworld, because that's his thing), so I don't know what you're arguing against?

I would suggest that somebody who abandons their alleged principles whenever they become challenged never actually had them. Redcloak pays lip service to a lot of things, but when push comes to shove, he's never been one to stand his ground, even before Xykon broke his spirit for a time.

[jwhouk]

It'd be a good question when we get to that point - "What does Redcloak do when he discovers The Plan wasn't what he thought it was?"

But right now we have a bunch of vamps dominating the Council of Clans. And we need a pretty big Deus ex Machina (or is that "Hammer-a"?) to get around it.

[B. Dandelion]

That is the point people are making, yes.

They are making the point that he is not a tragic villain? I have to say that yes, it does look to me like a lot of people want to argue that he's not a tragic villain.


Well, it's a good thing I never claimed Redcloak was completely devoid of principles then, isn't? And I don't think anyone else was actually doing that either (save maybe Zimmerworld, because that's his thing), so I don't know what you're arguing against?

My second paragraph was referring back to Peelee's post that I posted the bit of commentary in reply to in the first place, rather than you.

[Rrmcklin]

I would suggest that somebody who abandons their alleged principles whenever they become challenged never actually had them. Redcloak pays lip service to a lot of things, but when push comes to shove, he's never been one to stand his ground, even before Xykon broke his spirit for a time.

That's fair. Me, I take a different approach. Redcloak has principles, and things he'd go to lengths to avoid doing, but none of these are absolutes, and whether that's mostly because of not wanting to admit he's wrong or his guilt, or because he genuinely thing it's the best thing, depends on how charitably you want to view his character.

[hroþila]

I don't necessarily see any hypocrisy in Redcloak's use of "humanoids". There's no indication that e.g. displacer beasts were purposefully handicapped by the gods then put in inhospitable places in an effort to force them to turn into banditry, thus becoming acceptable targets. People can kill them for XP just like they can kill humans for XP - the Dark One's victory wouldn't change that in regards to goblinoids either.

[littlebum2002]

Making money is, to me, the first of the bad ones, which I define as books in which the antagonist is clearly not a threat.

Very true, and I agree the Golem storyline was a bit slow, but I loved Moist and was just happy to read about him again.




I tend to forget it exists. I don't find it that funny, and it is not part of any of the continuities. It's not bad, just not the one I would think of when recommending a place to start.

Grey Wolf

I'll agree that it might not be a good place to start, but I definitely disagree that it's not funny. It's one of my all time favorites. But to each their own.



I would suggest that somebody who abandons their alleged principles whenever they become challenged never actually had them. Redcloak pays lip service to a lot of things, but when push comes to shove, he's never been one to stand his ground, even before Xykon broke his spirit for a time.

Ugh these people who keep dragging this thread back to the topic of the Comic rather than let it naturally go off the rails further and further. Anyway, I agree. Redcloak certainly has a lot of conflicting values going on, and he seems to have these "realizations" that shock him back into reality for a short while, but eventually he seems to always go back to his habit of self-preservation. He may be telling himself that his current course of action is the best way to get goblin equality (and, in fact, it may be), but that's not why he's doing it. He's doing it because he knows it's the best way to keep his skin.

[B. Dandelion]

I don't necessarily see any hypocrisy in Redcloak's use of "humanoids". There's no indication that e.g. displacer beasts were purposefully handicapped by the gods then put in inhospitable places in an effort to force them to turn into banditry, thus becoming acceptable targets. People can kill them for XP just like they can kill humans for XP - the Dark One's victory wouldn't change that in regards to goblinoids either.

Yeah, exactly.

[The Shadow]

Or for another example, a hypothetical person could balk at the concept that "race listed alignment is Always Evil" means "they are acceptable targets," arguing for treating orcs, and goblins, and black dragons, as people, and then get to undead and say, "Nah, it's naive and wrongheaded to treat a vampire like a person."

Given what we know of vampires in OOTS, I'd say it IS naive and wrongheaded to treat them as anything other than the spiritual parasites that they are. I mean yes, they are persons. But I don't see how they have any intrinsic right to (un)life, given that they're planar outsiders wearing a stolen meat-suit, while holding the true owner's soul in bondage. (In other vampire mythoi, the conclusion might be different.)

As for other undead... Take Tsukiko's wights. I think it's highly questionable that they're persons at all rather than simplistic reflections of her will. (Or whoever is Commanding them at the moment.) Whatever the merits of Redcloak's argument about other undead, it seems to work for them - they don't seem to have any initiative or will of their own whatever. (No, the shoes aren't really a counterexample - Tsukiko wanted them to act like children, so they did.)

Now take Xykon. He's definitely a person. He's also, of course, a desperately evil and despicable person. (You almost have to be to become a lich in the first place.) Perhaps in an ideal world, Roy would haul him off to trial before executing him justly for his crimes... But that seems more than a little impractical in the world as it stands.

In general, undead tend to either feed off the living to continue in existence, or else be spirits moving somebody else's corpse around like puppets. In either case, "acceptable target" seems apt - at any rate if the feeding is done on unwilling victims.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I definitely disagree that it's not funny.

I didn't say it wasn't funny. I said it wasn't that funny - I think Reaper Man is considerably funnier, for example. Yes, the assassin test is funny... if you've gone through a driver's test in the UK, which I haven't. Yes, the impromptu class/correction of the tattoos is funny. Yes, the philosopher meeting is a bit funny. And indeed, the fight for control of the sun is hilarious. But overall, it doesn't make me laugh as much as the others, and thus it's never in my mental list of recommendations. Which is why it's a rule of thumb.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

Certainly it is a little ridiculous to simply cite Redcloak's treatment of the hobgoblins some thirty years later as proof that what he said at age twenty is quite likely to be insincere. He did have principles. He became corrupt and lost sight of them. If he never really had principles at all then he wasn't much of a tragic villain, as nothing was really lost, just revealed.


That is the point people are making, yes.

Well, that's what makes it interesting, right? "If you pursue this road, that you've embarked upon, you will eventually come to moral decisions that will take you completely by surprise." I'm sure if you told Redcloak at age twenty, "You will someday become subservient to an undying lich who murders goblins for fun, you will lead armies of goblinoids to their deaths, and you will even [Start of Darkness spoiler I'm sure everyone who's read it knows what is referencing]," he would almost certainly say no, right? Certainly, I think, if he were offered to do that right at that moment-- I think, but I can't prove, that he'd say no even if it meant the Plan would 100% succeed. But as time marches on, nearly every quality of Redcloak's is burnt off except his determination and commitment to the plan, because at every moral fork in the road where he finds himself, he makes that choice. Is that something that was changed or revealed? I don't know. In many tragedies, it's the latter, but it's possible that in a story like this, Redcloak would have been different without the knowledge and unnatural lifespan the Crimson Mantle gave him.


It'd be a good question when we get to that point - "What does Redcloak do when he discovers The Plan wasn't what he thought it was?"

But right now we have a bunch of vamps dominating the Council of Clans. And we need a pretty big Deus ex Machina (or is that "Hammer-a"?) to get around it.

Not a Deus ex Machina.

[Kish]

Indeed, Thor said explicitly that he couldn't come down and smash Durkon's enemies, even if Durkon produced a machine for him to emerge from.

[Ruck]

Indeed, Thor said explicitly that he couldn't come down and smash Durkon's enemies, even if Durkon produced a machine for him to emerge from.

Now I'm laughing thinking about a scenario where this happens, but Thor can't get out of the machine because it would break The Gods' Rules. Call the strip "Deus in Machina."

[KorvinStarmast]

Indeed, Thor said explicitly that he couldn't come down and smash Durkon's enemies, even if Durkon produced a machine for him to emerge from. Thor also made the point the TDO would not survive the destruction of this world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html), and thus would not be around for "the next one" which is a fact that Redcloak does not know. (I am not sure if TDO knows it either ... unclear).

Redcloak's plan, which includes "let the snarl loose, TDO will get us a better deal in the next world" has a fatal flaw for his goals (better deal for goblinkind) since the leverage he has stated he has -- if we can't have what we want nobody gets what they want -- doesn't work. The gods make another world, and goblinkind is back to square one, at best, since TDO isn't around to be their advocate.

This point seems to me to be the key to building a bridge between Durkon and Redcloak; both needs a win win situation to meet their goals and aims. Durkon to help save the world, and Redcloak to preserve a better deal for goblinkind with TDO remaining a viable advocate for them among the deities.

Building that bridge seems to be the topic of book 7, while foiling the will of Hel, Durkula, and now Gontor, is the core of book VI.

[Kish]

There's no indication that e.g. displacer beasts were purposefully handicapped by the gods then put in inhospitable places in an effort to force them to turn into banditry, thus becoming acceptable targets.
There is the former; the CRAP AND YOU KNOW IT rules for playing "monsters," unlike Redcloak's syntax, are not limited to humanoids. You can look and see that a +4 level adjustment hobbles displacer beasts as easily as you can look and see that a +1 level adjustment hobbles hobgoblins. (Almost as easily; displacer beasts are Product Identity, so you need the Monster Manual, not just the SRD. Which might actually make looking at their stats impossible for a given person. The point is, if you can look at their stats, you can see very quickly that they're in the "kneecapped so that they don't actually compete with player races" club.)

[Resileaf]

Thor also made the point the TDO would not survive the destruction of this world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html), and thus would not be around for "the next one" which is a fact that Redcloak does not know. (I am not sure if TDO knows it either ... unclear).

Redcloak's plan, which includes "let the snarl loose, TDO will get us a better deal in the next world" has a fatal flaw for his goals (better deal for goblinkind) since the leverage he has stated he has -- if we can't have what we want nobody gets what they want -- doesn't work. The gods make another world, and goblinkind is back to square one, at best, since TDO isn't around to be their advocate.

This point seems to me to be the key to building a bridge between Durkon and Redcloak; both needs a win win situation to meet their goals and aims. Durkon to help save the world, and Redcloak to preserve a better deal for goblinkind with TDO remaining a viable advocate for them among the deities.

Building that bridge seems to be the topic of book 7, while foiling the will of Hel, Durkula, and now Gontor, is the core of book VI.

Neither Redcloak nor TDO know that there is going to be a next world. As far as they know, this is the second world created by the gods, and they want goblins to have the better deal now or else.

[KorvinStarmast]

In OD&D we had two guys in our early group who played monsters as characters. One was a genii, the other was IIRC an ogre. The DM worked with them to try and make their progression fit with the PC's. It wasn't easy, and about half of the people at the table got rather weary of the genii character's player and his never ending "but I'm special" appeals as we did stuff.

Players as monsters has been since the beginning a difficult thing to shoehorn into a game based on a very humanocentric framework. Heck, dwarfs and elves and hobbits were a class as much as a race in the original game. (Basic re did this).

Monsters-as-PC being a crap fit is a long running trend. The efforts in the most recent edition is maybe a little bit of an improvement, but quite frankly it's still a poor fit in a lot of cases. (Orcs get -2 int, and so on).

Just getting the level caps lifted from elves, dwarves, halflings etc was a nice move forward when it happened, and getting half orcs established as a normal and well fitting racial choice has been achieved. Maybe by 6th edition, weaving in the other humanoid races more smoothly can be achieved, although I am pretty sure gnolls have taken a step backward given the 5e lore on the basis of their infernal origins being explicitly laid out in the MM lore. (So let the gnolls go, and work on the goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, and kobolds ...)

[zimmerwald1915]

In OD&D we had two guys in our early group who played monsters as characters. One was a genii, the other was IIRC an ogre. The DM worked with them to try and make their progression fit with the PC's. It wasn't easy, and about half of the people at the table got rather weary of the genii character's player and his never ending "but I'm special" appeals as we did stuff.

Players as monsters has been since the beginning a difficult thing to shoehorn into a game based on a very humanocentric framework. Heck, dwarfs and elves and hobbits were a class as much as a race in the original game. (Basic re did this).

Monsters-as-PC being a crap fit is a long running trend. The efforts in the most recent edition is maybe a little bit of an improvement, but quite frankly it's still a poor fit in a lot of cases. (Orcs get -2 int, and so on).

Just getting the level caps lifted from elves, dwarves, halflings etc was a nice move forward when it happened, and getting half orcs established as a normal and well fitting racial choice has been achieved. Maybe by 6th edition, weaving in the other humanoid races more smoothly can be achieved, although I am pretty sure gnolls have taken a step backward given the 5e lore on the basis of their infernal origins being explicitly laid out in the MM lore. (So let the gnolls go, and work on the goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, and kobolds ...)
I doubt it, inasmuch as 4E and 5E have moved away from building monsters and PCs on the same chassis, which was a characteristic of 3E and d20 generally. Without that, building a monster for PC-dom is as much an exercise inventing the monster out of whole cloth as it is anything else. You can argue this is better or worse than the d20 approach, but it reifies the "monsters are different" idea more strongly than d20's attempts at a unified system.

[KorvinStarmast]

I doubt it, inasmuch as 4E and 5E have moved away from building monsters and PCs on the same chassis, which was a characteristic of 3E and d20 generally. Without that, building a monster for PC-dom is as much an exercise inventing the monster out of whole cloth as it is anything else. You can argue this is better or worse than the d20 approach, but it reifies the "monsters are different" idea more strongly than 3E's attempts at a unified system. Volo's Guide to Monsters tries to bridge that gap, but it's not seamless. Core canon for default FR setting makes for some awkward fits. But at least they made the effort. What 3.x tried was an interesting attempt at integrating the concept of "anything goes" but that entire system was too (IMO) bloated from the get go. (The bloat of 2e carried over into 3 ...)

(Did pathfinder do a better job with this?)

[zimmerwald1915]

Volo's Guide to Monsters tries to bridge that gap, but it's not seamless. Core canon for default FR setting makes for some awkward fits. But at least they made the effort. What 3.x tried was an interesting attempt at integrating the concept of "anything goes" but that system was too bloated from the get go.

(Did pathfinder do a better job with this?)
Pathfinder 1 eliminated level adjustment as its own thing, and made XP acquisition not dependent on the ECL and CR. All PCs gain the same XP from a given encounter regardless of level: total XP / number of PCs. A monster PC's level for purposes of determining how much XP is required to level up is equal to their CR, where CR is calculated the same way as it was in 3.5 (base CR + "key" class levels + if (non-"key" class levels < CR, 1/2 non-"key" class levels, 1/2 CR + (non-"key" class levels - CR))). It also changed the amount of XP granted by encounters of a given CR, and inflated the amount of XP required to level up to high levels.

Haven't playtested Pathfinder 2, but all indications are that that system will move away from a unified chassis for monsters and PCs as did D&D 4 and 5.

[Keltest]

There is the former; the CRAP AND YOU KNOW IT rules for playing "monsters," unlike Redcloak's syntax, are not limited to humanoids. You can look and see that a +4 level adjustment hobbles displacer beasts as easily as you can look and see that a +1 level adjustment hobbles hobgoblins. (Almost as easily; displacer beasts are Product Identity, so you need the Monster Manual, not just the SRD. Which might actually make looking at their stats impossible for a given person. The point is, if you can look at their stats, you can see very quickly that they're in the "kneecapped so that they don't actually compete with player races" club.)

For the purposes of actually being a played character, sure. But to the best of my knowledge, Displacer Beasts and most other non-humanoid monsters are not forced to choose between attacking the cities of PC races for resources or facing starvation/extinction (I argue that from what we are shown, goblins and other humanoids are not forced to make that choice either, but setting that aside for the moment.) Even if theyre intelligent, most non-humanoid monsters do not have enough of a society for Redcloak's arguments to apply to them. There is no Council of Worgs, for example, that decided policy for the various worg packs and instructs them on how to interact with the other races, theyre just wolves that are tougher and a bit more intelligent, and they mostly still act as wolves.

[zimmerwald1915]

There is no Council of Worgs, for example, that decided policy for the various worg packs and instructs them on how to interact with the other races
How D&D has degenerated the Worgs! In the Hobbit, they had just such a thing.

[CriticalFailure]

Pathfinder also has race points with each racial quality having being worth some number that is standardized across races. So it’s fairly easy to compare and easy for the gm to have a player drop a couple race points worth of stuff or let a player with a less powerful race take an extra trait or something.

[zimmerwald1915]

Pathfinder also has race points with each racial quality having being worth some number that is standardized across races. So it’s fairly easy to compare and easy for the gm to have a player drop a couple race points worth of stuff or let a player with a less powerful race take an extra trait or something.
That system only seems to exist in the ARG, and only applies to the races that were assigned race point values. It is not universal for all monsters.

[Peelee]

Thor also made the point the TDO would not survive the destruction of this world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html), and thus would not be around for "the next one" which is a fact that Redcloak does not know.

You've injected a large amount of certainty that is not in the comic. The only "fact" is that The Dark One might not survive into the next world.

[Resileaf]

You've injected a large amount of certainty that is not in the comic. The only "fact" is that The Dark One might not survive into the next world.

Well, it's an educated guess by a god. He doubts it for what appears to be a good reason, and we have not been given any hint that he would be wrong.

[Peelee]

Well, it's an educated guess by a god. He doubts it for what appears to be a good reason, and we have not been given any hint that he would be wrong.

Yeah, it's heavily implied that there's very little chance, but Thor himself won't commit himself to it. It'd be a stupid gamble for sure, but still a gamble.