anti-bane

[Torpin]

is their an opposite effect of bane for armor, like that gives you a higher ac vs 1 type of opponent and dr vs them

[Crake]

is their an opposite effect of bane for armor, like that gives you a higher ac vs 1 type of opponent and dr vs them

That's an interesting concept. As far as I'm aware, there's no such thing, but a +1 ability that gives +2 armor and say, maybe +2 untyped on saves? DR5/- instead of the saves could also maybe work?

[Torpin]

no reason we cant make it up

i think how you put it sounds balanced would it be the dr or the save or both.

[Crake]

no reason we cant make it up

i think how you put it sounds balanced would it be the dr or the save or both.

DR would be more analogous to the extra damage you get from bane, though DR10/- might be more appropriate on second thought, since the bonus damage you get from bane is 2d6+2 (+2 from the increased enhancement bonus) which averages out to about 9 extra damage.

That said, if +9 damage represents a doubling of your damage, then -10 damage could well mean negating all your damage entirely. If we wanted to halve your damage, I think DR5/- might be more appropriate. Depends on if you want point for point, or % for %. I'd probably go with 5/- myself. As a +1 ability, it'd be fairly easily accessible early game, and DR10/- could easily trivialize otherwise tough encounters far more so than a bane weapon would.

[Torpin]

DR would be more analogous to the extra damage you get from bane, though DR10/- might be more appropriate on second thought, since the bonus damage you get from bane is 2d6+2 (+2 from the increased enhancement bonus) which averages out to about 9 extra damage.

That said, if +9 damage represents a doubling of your damage, then -10 damage could well mean negating all your damage entirely. If we wanted to halve your damage, I think DR5/- might be more appropriate. Depends on if you want point for point, or % for %. I'd probably go with 5/- myself. As a +1 ability, it'd be fairly easily accessible early game, and DR10/- could easily trivialize otherwise tough encounters far more so than a bane weapon would.

i think 10 is far too much, but 1 ac, 2 untyped save boius and 5/- sound good against 1 type of enemy

[ericgrau]

DR would be more analogous to the extra damage you get from bane, though DR10/- might be more appropriate on second thought, since the bonus damage you get from bane is 2d6+2 (+2 from the increased enhancement bonus) which averages out to about 9 extra damage.

That said, if +9 damage represents a doubling of your damage, then -10 damage could well mean negating all your damage entirely. If we wanted to halve your damage, I think DR5/- might be more appropriate. Depends on if you want point for point, or % for %. I'd probably go with 5/- myself. As a +1 ability, it'd be fairly easily accessible early game, and DR10/- could easily trivialize otherwise tough encounters far more so than a bane weapon would.

DR 9, +2 AC actually. Each point of AC is worth about 1.5-6 DR. Sometimes less or more. But DR 10 to err on the low side might be a good idea in case of unexpected trouble.

Even a level 1 raging barbarian with elite array averages about 13 damage. In a 4v4 fight monsters tend to have less damage, but they have less HP and AC too. In a 4v1 fight they tend to have more of all of those, unless it's just a routine fight. So even against the right monster you usually won't be invulnerable. But it'll help a lot.

Also a +1 ability to rarely trivialize encounters is fair. You need to consider that most of the time it's a waste of a +1. And that in enough levels it will only help a little, and also be a total waste most of the time.

The worst abuse I could see would be for example undead anti-bane in an undead heavy campaign, especially lots of moocs like a zombie apocalypse. Even then in such a campaign regular bane + cleave + reach, many spells and turning focus would help a lot too. And yet many undead would deal enough damage and/or have enough special abilities to still be a decent threat. And it only takes one major fight outside of the theme where too much focus on creature type becomes a huge risk of death.

[Crake]

Also a +1 ability to rarely trivialize encounters is fair. You need to consider that most of the time it's a waste of a +1. And that in enough levels it will only help a little, and also be a total waste most of the time.

Not necessarily. If players know they're going into the undead catacombs, they can go buy a piece of undead anti-bane, just the same as they'd go get an undeadbane weapon, tailor their gear to the upcoming fight, or even just get an undead anti-bane buckler where they didn't have one before. You rarely see bane weapons in games where they're not appliccable, and I imagine the same would be the case here.

[ericgrau]

Not necessarily. If players know they're going into the undead catacombs, they can go buy a piece of undead anti-bane, just the same as they'd go get an undeadbane weapon, tailor their gear to the upcoming fight, or even just get an undead anti-bane buckler where they didn't have one before. You rarely see bane weapons in games where they're not appliccable, and I imagine the same would be the case here.

I mean it's fair at DR 10/-. Because it's not always useful. Even if you're entering the Undead Catacombs of Zombie-y Deathness (TM), it'll become a waste of money if you ever move on to another location. Even in a campaign where the DM says "This will be an undead heavy campaign", not every foe will be undead, and the DR won't be better than other specialty ways of combating undead. And stacking too many anti-undead methods isn't smart, because that one uncommon non-undead encounter could slaughter you. Or heck, undead with attacks besides damage, which are plenty. So it doesn't add much to existing methods, including weapon bane. I can see the back line not taking it all, even in an undead focused campaign, even with the possibility of rear ambushes. Because they are already using enough anti-undead offensive tricks, and don't want to be gimped against other foes.

[Crake]

I mean it's fair at DR 10/-. Because it's not always useful. Even if you're entering the Undead Catacombs of Zombie-y Deathness (TM), it'll become a waste of money if you ever move on to another location. Even in a campaign where the DM says "This will be an undead heavy campaign", not every foe will be undead, and the DR won't be much better than other specialty ways of combating undead. And stacking too many anti-undead methods isn't smart, because that one uncommon non-undead encounter could slaughter you. So it doesn't add much to existing methods, including weapon bane.

It would only cost 4165gp to get a +1 undead anti-bane buckler that you could equip as a move action whenever you come across undead, not exactly a huge investment, and if you sell it, you're only out about 2000gp, which could be alleviated by just crafting it yourself, at which point you're only out 160xp, assuming you're playing 3.5 and not pf where you'd literally break even.

Balancing something around the fact that "it'll only be intermittently useful" isn't as weighty as you think, because people will almost always find a way to ensure they always have the best too for the job. Take for example price reductions due to racial restrictions. Just because it's only an elf that can use it, the price only goes down by 10%. Likewise compare bane vs other damage dealing weapon abilities. Bane does 2d6, vs fire/frost/whatever doing 1d6, so it's twice as effective, ask yourself would you allow an armor ability of DR5/- as a +1 ability? I wouldn't but I might allow DR2/-.

[T.G. Oskar]

There's an equivalent to Bane for armor, but it's nothing as you imagine.

Bane Blind (MIC, p. 7) allows you, for 10 rounds, to essentially gain super-invisibility against one kind of creature 3/day (and I mean super-invisibility; the creature can't detect you by any means, unless you choose to attack). It doesn't increase your AC or give you DR, and the effect is limited by day, but it doesn't have an enhancement bonus cost (it has a fixed 15k gp cost).

[Saintheart]

It isn't dead-on concept, but there is something akin to this is Ghostwalk: Wise To Your Ways, which adds your favored enemy bonus to your saving throws against that favored enemy's (Su), (Sp), and (Ex) abilities. Unquenchable Flame of Life does the same thing so long as your favored enemy is undead.

The Trophy feature of the Leviathan Hunter PrC (out of Stormwrack) does add competence bonuses to AC if you're wearing bits of a favored enemy you slaughtered, but it's not a one-to-one payback, and maxes out as a +4 to AC and saves against that opponent.

[ericgrau]

It would only cost 4165gp to get a +1 undead anti-bane buckler that you could equip as a move action whenever you come across undead, not exactly a huge investment, and if you sell it, you're only out about 2000gp, which could be alleviated by just crafting it yourself, at which point you're only out 160xp, assuming you're playing 3.5 and not pf where you'd literally break even.

Balancing something around the fact that "it'll only be intermittently useful" isn't as weighty as you think, because people will almost always find a way to ensure they always have the best too for the job. Take for example price reductions due to racial restrictions. Just because it's only an elf that can use it, the price only goes down by 10%. Likewise compare bane vs other damage dealing weapon abilities. Bane does 2d6, vs fire/frost/whatever doing 1d6, so it's twice as effective, ask yourself would you allow an armor ability of DR5/- as a +1 ability? I wouldn't but I might allow DR2/-.
I am already considering best case scenario, an undead heavy campaign and comparing price vs benefit accordingly, with other anti-undead tactics as options too. DR 10/- is pretty meh. It's level 7 before it isn't painfully expensive. By then it's still costs a good amount and yet is not that special compared to other tactics. Reasons already given above.

The elf example doesn't work at all, because you can insure that you will be an elf 100% of the time, not 90-95%, and that no types of special attacks suddenly make you not an elf. Also there is nothing competing that elves get that is better than what others get.

If it's not an undead heavy campaign and you put it on a buckler: You also need a spare one handed weapon, which also needs a move action to draw. MW at minimum, if not magic. If the one handed weapon is your main THF weapon, you're sacrificing damage all the time, which alone could exceed a rarely used benefit. If you're already SAB, then you're sacrificing your main shield AC. And the buckler is a move action to draw, plus another move action to strap on. You could spend the 4 days crafting something else too, plus as long as you have it your gold isn't available for other items. Consider all the enemy types you might face and the cost of having bucklers ready, and it's a huge waste of money. Even for the most common enemy type only (but still not the majority due to the campaign), it's a big waste of money and a huge waste of actions. It's far better to skip the buckler entirely.