Thrallherd's thrall(s)

[Pippin]

Hi there.

1. Someone playing a Thrallherd will most likely try to optimise their character to some degree, and that's fine. What might be a problem is that they'll want to bring the thrall to every combat, fighting with the rest of the party. So in the end, there's a player playing twice as much as the other players, and playing two characters that are likely to have very powerful builds compared to the rest of the team. Doesn't that spoil the fun? Wouldn't it be "better" (for the rest of the team) if the Thrallherd kept his thrall at home, and were only allowed to use it for optimisation shenanigans?

2. I understand that having two minions is always better than just one. Is the Thrallherd's capstone of significant help outside combat? What can you do with two minions that you can't do with just one and an army of believers? Again, this question is considered outside combat.

Thanks!

[Red Fel]

Hi there.

Hello.


1. Someone playing a Thrallherd will most likely try to optimise their character to some degree, and that's fine. What might be a problem is that they'll want to bring the thrall to every combat, fighting with the rest of the party. So in the end, there's a player playing twice as much as the other players, and playing two characters that are likely to have very powerful builds compared to the rest of the team. Doesn't that spoil the fun? Wouldn't it be "better" (for the rest of the team) if the Thrallherd kept his thrall at home, and were only allowed to use it for optimisation shenanigans?

How does "optimization shenanigans" not include combat? I mean, that's how I build my Thralls, if offered the chance - as a complement to my combat style. Fact is, D&D is a combat-oriented game - it can do other things, but not well. Minions are for murder.

Another fact is, other classes get minions too. Rangers and Druids have animal companions. Wizards have familiars. Almost any primary spellcaster can get some kind of summon or other. It's not unheard of.

The Thrallherd class is specifically built around this concept - of having a really powerful minion, and a bunch of weaker disposable ones. If this is a problem for you, as DM, you need to tell your player, and - possibly - ban the class. Ban minionmancy generally, if you can't handle it at your table. What you really shouldn't do as DM is let a player use a character class, but insist that they disregard a key class feature. It'd be like letting a player take levels in Ironsoul Forgemaster, then informing them that there will be no downtime allowed for crafting.


2. I understand that having two minions is always better than just one. Is the Thrallherd's capstone of significant help outside combat? What can you do with two minions that you can't do with just one and an army of believers? Again, this question is considered outside combat.

Thanks!

Again, assuming that this is exclusively for "outside of combat" use is a bit flawed, and ignores key assumptions of the game. Having a second Thrall is incredibly powerful in combat. But that said? Having an extra Thrall outside of combat is like having a third character build outside of combat. That means having a character specifically designed for one thing, another designed for an entirely different thing, and a third for yet another thing. And there can be synergy.

Suppose, for example, your first Thrall uses the Ironsoul Forgemaster PrC I mentioned above. He's built to be a melee-ready bodyguard. We'll ignore his combat utility, because apparently you want to do that. Well, a crafting character without spells can craft arms and armor, but he can't necessarily enhance those items without the proper spells. Do you know who can, though? A caster. If your second Thrall is a primary caster, he can contribute the spells while your first Thrall contributes the craftsmanship. Your entire army can be comfortably outfitted, you can build a successful crafting industry, all without your Thrallherd PC having to take a single rank in crafting. This is something two powerful minions can do that one cannot.

Or, you know, they can help you murder things. Like they were designed to.

[AvatarVecna]

Hi there.

1. Someone playing a Thrallherd will most likely try to optimise their character to some degree, and that's fine. What might be a problem is that they'll want to bring the thrall to every combat, fighting with the rest of the party. So in the end, there's a player playing twice as much as the other players, and playing two characters that are likely to have very powerful builds compared to the rest of the team. Doesn't that spoil the fun? Wouldn't it be "better" (for the rest of the team) if the Thrallherd kept his thrall at home, and were only allowed to use it for optimisation shenanigans?

This is a game about murderhobos who leave their homes behind to go on adventures - the term "murderhobo" is a riff on the fact that PCs are essentially homeless people who murder their way through life looting their victims to get enough gold to have an all-night party and a warm bed for the night, before doing the whole thing again tomorrow. "A thrall that stays at home" is a thrall you do not actually have, because you are never yourself "at home".

Well, for a certain value of "never". Games with a home base or a preferred city aren't uncommon, even if they're not the default for D&D. In regards to leadership abilities in general, the cohorts are for boosting your personal power in some fashion, while the followers are for roleplaying benefits and bragging rights. Changing up the way Leadership/Thrallherd/etc work so that the Cohort is also bragging rights often requires suspension of disbelief further than what the followers have for the simple reason that the cohort is - by default - better than them. A cohort is higher-level than followers, they can have powerful items and abilities. They're a step below the PCs, and will remain a step below for your entire career. Why would that cohort want to stay at home, and why would the PC want their cohort to stay at home? Heck, even if the player wants them to stay at the "home base", it's usually for the purposes of generating money for the PC using business rules or item crafting or running cons, and all that extra money/value is gonna translate into better combat capabilities anyway.

In 99% of cases, the thing you're looking to do isn't done because it makes sense in-game, it's done in service of balance and keeping things moving. Now I don't think anybody will really argue that adding a cohort to the party throws off the balance, nor that adding a cohort slows things down by having another body in the pile, but if those were concerns you had about Thrallherd, you should not have allowed it in the first place.


2. I understand that having two minions is always better than just one. Is the Thrallherd's capstone of significant help outside combat? What can you do with two minions that you can't do with just one and an army of believers? Again, this question is considered outside combat.

Thanks!

The only real out-of-combat support cohorts provide if they're not accompanying you on missions is generating money in some fashion. Personally, if I was gonna do it (that is, if I was a Thrallherd 10 with two cohorts), I'd have my main cohort be my high priestess, and my secondary cohort be an artificer focused purely on item creation. Every day, while I'm off adventuring and having a good time, my high priestess is using the Sacrifice rules to ritualistically murder one of my fanatical followers - preferably the strongest of them, and preferably for quite some time in front of all the rest. Because of how thrallherds work, this is a kinda-coerced "willing" sacrifice of a decently-HD'd creature that takes a long time in front of a lot of people, which can give quite a hefty bonus to the Knowledge (Religion) roll. Of course, this daily sacrifice is turned into Dark Craft GP/XP for the artificer cohort to turn into evil items for me when I get back. Because of how thrallherd works, the other fanatics watching a ritualistic murder of one of their own every day isn't gonna bother them or drive them away, and a new one will replace the lost follower every day. If the rules let me profit from more than one ritual sacrifice per 24 hour period, I'd be lining them up for a goddamn slaughterhouse, feeding them into a meat grinder for my dark gods to fuel my other cohort's item creation because that's the kind of weird optimization crap two cohorts and an army of perfectly-fanatical followers can get up to if I'm making them my craft bitches instead of having them serve as living wands of Cure Light Wounds.

[Bphill561]

As Avatar vecna stated, crafting is the best out of combat use. Even without sacing minions, they still get auto xp based on the leadership rules. This is really interesting once they cap out at 17th level, because they can burn all the xp they earn above 17th base. Charge your party members 75% market price if you run out of ideas for your own goods.

Second cohort of use is the Fiend of Possession PrC from the fiend folio. The fiend can adds it's level to the weapon enhancement bonus or give it properties. Put the fiend in a weapon and just have it use it's actions to change weapon properties. It augments the player, but does not muddy up the battle field with another character.

Overall though, you will have to talk to the player to inform him of what you think is acceptable for a cohort and their actions. It might dissuade them from playing the class all together and/or avoid problems down the road.

[Pippin]

Thank you for your 3 replies, I was very eager to read them!

I'm not a DM and I don't seek to be, but I was worried that this PrC might tense some people. I suppose one has to gauge the level of the team first before using the full capacity of this PrC. If the group isn't very high level, maybe I should choose something else. In your groups though, you sound like everyone is well-optimised, so indeed there is no reason to limit yourself.

Edit. If I may ask, what prevents you from permanently dominating your first thrall, then dismiss it and hire a different one the next day? Wouldn't that be the same thing as having two thralls?

[AvatarVecna]

Edit. If I may ask, what prevents you from permanently dominating your first thrall, then dismiss it and hire a different one the next day? Wouldn't that be the same thing as having two thralls?

Thrallherd's "Thrallherd" ability can't be resisted. Domination effects can be. They'll be mind-affecting (a common immunity), and allow a Will save, and domination effects tend to be type-limited at lower levels. Keeping somebody permanently dominated is possible, but takes resources. And while your thrall might be fine getting Dominated while it's still you're thrall, once you dismiss it, it goes back to normal and will want to resist the domination.

I'm not saying you can't do this thing, just that doing it is an expansion of your minionmancy that's gonna take more significant resources to maintain. The beauty of the Thrallherd ability is that it can auto-mind**** anybody.

[Red Fel]

Thank you for your 3 replies, I was very eager to read them!

I'm not a DM and I don't seek to be, but I was worried that this PrC might tense some people. I suppose one has to gauge the level of the team first before using the full capacity of this PrC. If the group isn't very high level, maybe I should choose something else. In your groups though, you sound like everyone is well-optimised, so indeed there is no reason to limit yourself.

The fact is, if minionmancy - or the Leadership feat - is a problem for your table, Thrallherd will be a problem for your table. It's Leadership, as a class feature, without any of the drawbacks. This isn't a question of what level the party is, or how well-optimized; it's simply a question of whether minionmancy flies at your table.

Some tables can handle that. At level 1 or level 20, at low-op or high-op, some tables have combat down to a well-oiled machine and WBL down to a science, and throwing extra NPCs in won't gum up the works. Other tables can't. It's incumbent on each player and DM to feel out what may disrupt the table's overall enjoyment and, where feasible, avoid ruining everyone's good time. Sometimes that means you can play a minionmancer, sometimes it means you can't. That's just how it works.


Edit. If I may ask, what prevents you from permanently dominating your first thrall, then dismiss it and hire a different one the next day? Wouldn't that be the same thing as having two thralls?

AV has it right:


Thrallherd's "Thrallherd" ability can't be resisted. Domination effects can be. They'll be mind-affecting (a common immunity), and allow a Will save, and domination effects tend to be type-limited at lower levels. Keeping somebody permanently dominated is possible, but takes resources. And while your thrall might be fine getting Dominated while it's still you're thrall, once you dismiss it, it goes back to normal and will want to resist the domination.

I'm not saying you can't do this thing, just that doing it is an expansion of your minionmancy that's gonna take more significant resources to maintain. The beauty of the Thrallherd ability is that it can auto-mind**** anybody.

Bottom line, there are ways to cheese yourself into Mind-Emperor of the World, if you really want to, with or without the Thrallherd PrC. The advantage of Thrallherd is that the ability is automatic, requiring no maintenance or resources (other than taking levels in the class itself). If you really, really want to cheese that with additional domination, you can. But keep in mind that Thralls are NPCs, and the DM does control their availability; if you try to use your class feature to summon made-to-order NPCs only to dismiss and dominate them, you may find that the next batch of Thralls to show up have nothing but Fighter levels and bad feat selections. A good DM will be fairly permissive with your Thrall choices, but only within reason.

[liquidformat]

So there are quite a few classes, prcs, spells, and feats that all ave similar function and issues so this isn't exactly an uncommon issue. Here is a short list of examples:

planar binding, planar ally, dragon cohort, leadership, undead leadership, dread necromancer, mindbender, orc warlord, fiend binder, any class with rebuke abilities.

This really comes down to a question of do you want minionmancy in your game.

[Segev]

One solution to part of the table-level problems with minionmancy is to work with the other players to tailor some of your minions to complement THEIR fighting styles, and then let them command them. From your Believers' perspectives, the other PCs are your lieutenants. This gives EVERYONE in the party extra actions to play around with. And, particularly, keeps the action ratio relatively constant across all players.

As an added bonus, when you do this, you can probably get the other PCs to contribute to "their" squad's gear costs. Don't insist on this, but it might mean that they'll accept that +1 spear from the loot pile (that would probably otherwise be vendor trash) as part of their own share and let one of the people you've assigned to work with them have it, if it will help the minion complement them in battle better.

[Hackulator]

Excessive minionmancy is a big problem in games because it causes a single player to take up more than their share of game time, as running multiple creatures will almost always take longer than running a single creature, all other things being equal. However, this is an issue that needs to be addressed BEFORE a player specializes into minionmancy. Once a DM has allowed a player to be a thrallherd, telling them they can't bring their thralls to combat is ridiculous, because you're basically saying "hey, you know those levels you took? They do nothing now, get bent." This is not fair to the player.

One of the best ways to deal with this was mentioned above, allow other party members to take control of minions beyond the first, so the combat isn't just 50% the minionmancer doing stuff.

[liquidformat]

Excessive minionmancy is a big problem in games because it causes a single player to take up more than their share of game time, as running multiple creatures will almost always take longer than running a single creature, all other things being equal. However, this is an issue that needs to be addressed BEFORE a player specializes into minionmancy. Once a DM has allowed a player to be a thrallherd, telling them they can't bring their thralls to combat is ridiculous, because you're basically saying "hey, you know those levels you took? They do nothing now, get bent." This is not fair to the player.

One of the best ways to deal with this was mentioned above, allow other party members to take control of minions beyond the first, so the combat isn't just 50% the minionmancer doing stuff.

Or the entire party all be minionmancers that seems reasonable too...

[Hackulator]

Or the entire party all be minionmancers that seems reasonable too...

Yeah I'd rather not have my combats end the first round every time until the DM puts forth a real challenge and then combat takes 3 sessions.

[liquidformat]

Yeah I'd rather not have my combats end the first round every time until the DM puts forth a real challenge and then combat takes 3 sessions.

ya that is why most games I have been in outlaw minionmancy or are specifically set up for it like military or political based games...

[Pippin]

Okay.

You are an StP Erudite Thrallherd, and you want to learn every spell in the game (arcane or divine, up to and including 9th-level spells as well as non-druid, non-cleric spells) as a power. So you want to hire an ECL17 Wyrm Wizard as your thrall, and get every spell out of him. To be able to select 9th-level spells out of Spell Research, your thrall must know epic spells, so you want your thrall to be a wizard dragonwrought kobold at ECL1.

His initial feats are Dragonwrought and Apprentice (1 flaw), which allows him to add Perform (whatever) to his class skills. For skill rank shenanigans, you want your thrall to have a major bloodline, and you make him take all 3 levels before ECL2. At ECL2, your thrall has Knowledge (arcana, 8 ranks), Perform (whatever, 8 ranks), and he takes his first level of Prestige Bard at ECL3, which adds Listen to his class skills.

At ECL4, your thrall is Wizard 2/Prestige Bard 2 and has Knowledge (arcana, 10 ranks), Listen (10 ranks), Perform (whatever, 10 ranks), Profession (astrologer, 6 ranks) and Spellcraft (6 ranks). Your thrall was somehow surrounded with Bards inspiring Greatness all day long, and you make him level up that way. Your ECL5 thrall is Wizard 2/Prestige Bard 3 with Knowledge (arcana, 13 ranks), Listen (13 ranks) and qualifies for Sublime Chord.

He takes 10 levels of Sublime Chord after that, which makes him a Wizard 2/Prestige Bard 3/Sublime Chord 10 at ECL15. He can cast 9th-level spells. Again he somehow finds himself surrounded with Bards inspiring Greatness all day long, and again you make him level up that away. He takes his first level of Wyrm Wizard with Knowledge (arcana, 24 ranks) and Spellcraft (24 ranks), then chaos shuffles any one of his feats away for Epic Spellcasting. He can cast 10th-level spells now.

He ends up being a Wizard 2/Prestige Bard 3/Sublime Chord 10/Wyrm Wizard 2 at ECL 17 and picks whatever spell you like through Spell Research. He then scribes a scroll of the spell you seek, and you learn it. Then I suppose you just Do The Wight Thing with your thrall over and over until you have acquired each and every spell in the game as a power.

For those of you playing Thrallherds, is there any chance at all that your DM might accept this cheesecake? Because I don't know of any simpler way. (Also I cheated at some point, did you notice where?)

[Calthropstu]

Meet the thrallherd spymaster. (No cheese required.)

First, you become a thrallherd. You take standard options for powers and race. You then take a rogue and a wizard for your thralls. The wizard acts for transportation for your believers, sneaking them around the country. Their orders are to implant themselves as workers in whatever they are good at in key areas. You use psychic reformation to set their skills to suit your needs. Once they are optimally prepared, they lie in wait gathering information.

The higher level believers act as focal points, using their various abilities to communicate directly with the wizard who in turn talks to you. Your rogue is your striker, sneaking in and performing covert missions. When magical muscle is needed, the wizard alters his spell list for battle. Alternatively, change the wizard to a sorcerer, using psychic reformation on him to adjust his spell list regularly.

Meet the thrallherd businessman. (No cheese required)
As with the spymaster, but with a focus on business instead of espionage. Have your believers set up branches of your business in various parts of the world. Since they are absolutely loyal, they can be trusted with business secrets. Have them spread far and wide in small groups, each one reporting to a wider array of business networks. Business types can vary from accessories and clothing to spices and foods. If you're of a particularly nasty bent (or your character is... or both) you can make that business immoral such as slavery, sex, gladiator duels... hey, since you get new followers each day, what does it matter if a few of your believers die every week?

The problem with thrallherds is that at particularly high levels of influence and levels, they get to a point where a prolonged battle between two (or more) thrallherds can depopulate a continent. At particularly ridiculous levels of optimization (such as the thrallherd having a thrallherd as his thrall cheese) entire worlds can be wiped out.

[AvatarVecna]

Okay.

You are an StP Erudite Thrallherd, and you want to learn every spell in the game (arcane or divine, up to and including 9th-level spells as well as non-druid, non-cleric spells) as a power. So you want to hire an ECL17 Wyrm Wizard as your thrall, and get every spell out of him. To be able to select 9th-level spells out of Spell Research, your thrall must know epic spells, so you want your thrall to be a wizard dragonwrought kobold at ECL1.

His initial feats are Dragonwrought and Apprentice (1 flaw), which allows him to add Perform (whatever) to his class skills. For skill rank shenanigans, you want your thrall to have a major bloodline, and you make him take all 3 levels before ECL2. At ECL2, your thrall has Knowledge (arcana, 8 ranks), Perform (whatever, 8 ranks), and he takes his first level of Prestige Bard at ECL3, which adds Listen to his class skills.

At ECL4, your thrall is Wizard 2/Prestige Bard 2 and has Knowledge (arcana, 10 ranks), Listen (10 ranks), Perform (whatever, 10 ranks), Profession (astrologer, 6 ranks) and Spellcraft (6 ranks). Your thrall was somehow surrounded with Bards inspiring Greatness all day long, and you make him level up that way. Your ECL5 thrall is Wizard 2/Prestige Bard 3 with Knowledge (arcana, 13 ranks), Listen (13 ranks) and qualifies for Sublime Chord.

He takes 10 levels of Sublime Chord after that, which makes him a Wizard 2/Prestige Bard 3/Sublime Chord 10 at ECL15. He can cast 9th-level spells. Again he somehow finds himself surrounded with Bards inspiring Greatness all day long, and again you make him level up that away. He takes his first level of Wyrm Wizard with Knowledge (arcana, 24 ranks) and Spellcraft (24 ranks), then chaos shuffles any one of his feats away for Epic Spellcasting. He can cast 10th-level spells now.

He ends up being a Wizard 2/Prestige Bard 3/Sublime Chord 10/Wyrm Wizard 2 at ECL 17 and picks whatever spell you like through Spell Research. He then scribes a scroll of the spell you seek, and you learn it. Then I suppose you just Do The Wight Thing with your thrall over and over until you have acquired each and every spell in the game as a power.

For those of you playing Thrallherds, is there any chance at all that your DM might accept this cheesecake? Because I don't know of any simpler way. (Also I cheated at some point, did you notice where?)

I've played with DMs that would allow one or two of these things, but rarely all of them. Honestly if you're just putting in all this cheese to get "every spell ever" at 18th level, may as well wait a few more levels and just...have an epic thrall. That knocks out half the cheese you're pulling by making it unnecessary and makes the DM less likely to take issue because all your BS is weighed against epic spellcasting/item creation.

An artificer 17 (maybe 15? eh) with enough money can make you a Ring Of Spellcasting, which can at-will replicate any spell effect in the game. It'd be hellishly expensive, and a lot of them would be even more expensive if you wanted them as permanent buffs instead of at-will castings, but it's simple. And an artificer could make it cheaper than most anybody else, so as long as you can provide extra crafting gp/xp/time, they're set.

Alternatively, if you just wanna be able to cast any spell in the game, Savage Progression Illithid, {whatever} 5/Thrallherd 1/Mindbender 1/Illithid Savant 10. Just have your thrall be whatever you want to gain today, and eat their brain. Do this every day, maybe even multiple times a day with your devotees, and eventually you'll have everything.

Alternatively, some people take the interpretation that sorcerers can technically learn any spell in the game with special permission; obviously, any caster could learn any spell with DM permission, sure, but sorcerer is called out in the text as having the option, which makes a stronger case. Then all you need is resetting traps of Heroics, Embrace the Dark Chaos, and Shun the Dark Chaos, and you can generate feats for taking Extra Spell.

EDIT: Or just wish for a spellbook identical to that of a super-epic Wyrm Wizard who's learned every spell in existence.

[Pippin]

Alternatively, if you just wanna be able to cast any spell in the game, Savage Progression Illithid, {whatever} 5/Thrallherd 1/Mindbender 1/Illithid Savant 10. Just have your thrall be whatever you want to gain today, and eat their brain. Do this every day, maybe even multiple times a day with your devotees, and eventually you'll have everything.
That might be the simplest solution after all, hiring a Savant Illithid. I don't care about getting every feature in the game though, I was "only" trying to get all spells.

Thanks.

[magic9mushroom]

Hi there.

1. Someone playing a Thrallherd will most likely try to optimise their character to some degree, and that's fine. What might be a problem is that they'll want to bring the thrall to every combat, fighting with the rest of the party. So in the end, there's a player playing twice as much as the other players, and playing two characters that are likely to have very powerful builds compared to the rest of the team. Doesn't that spoil the fun? Wouldn't it be "better" (for the rest of the team) if the Thrallherd kept his thrall at home, and were only allowed to use it for optimisation shenanigans?

2. I understand that having two minions is always better than just one. Is the Thrallherd's capstone of significant help outside combat? What can you do with two minions that you can't do with just one and an army of believers? Again, this question is considered outside combat.

Thanks!

1. There's no reason the Thrallherd's thrall or for that matter the Thrallherd itself should have more powerful builds than the rest of the team (other than, of course, the fact that the Thrallherd has a thrall). Games that don't allow Tier 1 casters won't allow Tier 1 caster thralls and probably won't allow Thrallherd, and for all Thrallherd's legendary utility the Thrallherd's personal power is (outside of possible WBL-breaking shenanigans) less than that of a straight Psion because they lose two manifester levels (and the straight Psion could take, say, ten levels of Anarchic Initiate, whereas the Thrallherd can't). Certainly, a Thrallherd's personal power pales in comparison to that of a Tier 1 caster with PrC.

2. The Thrallherd isn't playing twice as much as the other players if the other players have Leadership. Maybe one-and-a-half times with the capstone. Any campaign that doesn't allow Leadership (and some that do) shouldn't allow Thrallherd either. You could also simply have the DM run the thrall(s); they are, technically, NPCs. There's also the fact that the cohort/thrall might well be something like a Bard that spams Inspire Courage - that helps the whole party and doesn't hog the spotlight (the one time I've taken Leadership in an actual game, this is what I did).

3. To what degree two thralls are more useful than one really boils down to two variables: a) the composition of the rest of the party, and b) what you're doing with the thralls. Having a DMM cleric buff you every morning is nice, but if there's already a couple of DMM clerics in the party who are doing that job it's less so (it's not irrelevant, though, because DMM is rather limited unless Nightsticks are allowed to stack). Artificing is nice, although all the rules I've seen will not allow you to exploit cohorts for their XP (whether you can do it to thralls is a big mystery, because Thrallherd's flavour text isn't backed up by hard rules regarding how much more control they have). Sacrifice abuse, naturally, breaks the game into itty-bitty pieces* and adding a second high-level thrall is more icing than a big benefit.

*Sort of. A lot of the assumptions of the game kinda go out the window in a campaign where the PCs are full-on villains; dark craft is to some extent a compensation for the fact that the sort of people who get dark craft can't just walk into a city and buy/sell magic items (though conquering the city with their evil army and stealing all the magic items is still an option). Thrallherd-feeding sacrifice and Liquid Pain is still pretty cheesy, though.

[Pippin]

Hello, I was wondering why anyone would be after Liquid Pain though. If you are a Thrallherd, you can dominate complete armies of Artificers and make them craft for you whatever you want. What's the best use (I should say worst) that you can make with sacrificing thralls and believers?

[Segev]

There is always something like the Body Leech (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925a) if you want to be specifically evil and callous towards your Believers.

As well, with a high number of Believers, you have a good chance of having an attractive, healthy specimen with physical stats you want; True Mind Switch with him for a nice physical upgrade. And for extended lifespan, if you pick somebody with more life expectancy left than your current body.