Destroying a Moon Base (Path-jammer)

[VelociRapture12]

So in one of the games I am in, we have recently discovered a moon base of scrow. We decided, rather than take on a whole base of angry space orcs, to go to the nearest asteroid belt and requisition a asteroid to throw at the base. However when we got there we discovered that we had no way of moving something that big. (500ft in Diameter) So I thought we could do something like this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment). However I am not entirely sure if this is even possible.

Things we have access to (That I can remember):
4th level Sorc/Wiz/druid/cleric spells (CL 8)
another spell caster with access to 3rd level (CL 6)
a decanter of endless water
3-6 LifeJammer Helms
a rather large amount of salt peter.
first tier mythic abilities (Unsure of what has been chosen by other party members)

[unseenmage]

Depending on how your GM rules move speeds to work in vacuum Animate Objects could be used to get LOTS of smaller rocks moving in a decaying orbit instead. Telekinesis, heck even Prestidigitation could work in a pinch.

[VelociRapture12]

Depending on how your GM rules move speeds to work in vacuum Animate Objects could be used to get LOTS of smaller rocks moving in a decaying orbit instead. Telekinesis, heck even Prestidigitation could work in a pinch.

Unfortunately, we don't have access to 5th level spells, and our DM is a bit of a sticker for the rules. So I doubt that he'll allow the rather fragile creations from prestidigitation to do much if any damage to the base.

[Mnemius]

I see a decanter of endless water in there.

You're going to need some orbital mechanics math and a little engineering, but...
Use the decanter as a thrust source to propel said rock?

Geyser setting may not seem like much, but with void rather than atmosphere, and a big rock? I think you can see set up a decent boom.

[Jack_Simth]

I see a decanter of endless water in there.

You're going to need some orbital mechanics math and a little engineering, but...
Use the decanter as a thrust source to propel said rock?

Geyser setting may not seem like much, but with void rather than atmosphere, and a big rock? I think you can see set up a decent boom.

Takes a while, though, and requires that you mix physics with D&D. A decanter won't give much delta v to a rock that size, so you are talking about nudging the orbit very slowly until it intersects with the base. That's likely to be years.

[upho]

Takes a while, though, and requires that you mix physics with D&D. A decanter won't give much delta v to a rock that size, so you are talking about nudging the orbit very slowly until it intersects with the base. That's likely to be years.Yeah. But maybe use the same basic principle, but replace the decanter with the party casters and have them blast away for all they're worth, for a D&D version of nuclear explosion propulsion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pulse_propulsion)?

Another idea would be to use the decanter to increase mass when already in orbit, allowing you to sidestep the big issue of first getting the same mass up into orbit. So you'd need something like a few very tough sealed tubes able to survive reentry, one end pointed to minimize drag for max impact velocity, most of their mass consisting of water filled in space. And water also happens to be a phenomenal impact energy carrier as it cannot be further compressed, and used in this way it would likely also cause an explosion of superheated steam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superheated_steam) on impact, as the water is heated to ridiculous temperatures (and thus pressure) on reentry. You do need some way of filling, sealing and aiming your ""Rain-Rods from God" from orbit of course...

[Elricaltovilla]

Just in case no one has mentioned it to you before: when you try and mix D&D with real world physics, you are going to have a bad time.

Still, I applaud your ingenuity and destructive intentions. I am curious to see how it works out for you.

[upho]

Just in case no one has mentioned it to you before: when you try and mix D&D with real world physics, you are going to have a bad time.Whut this now? You sayin' peasant railgun no work?

You're absolutely right of course. But I guess if friggin' orbital asteroid bombardment is actually on the table, the GM must've already confirmed most "creative mixes" of D&D and RL physics are OK. Which makes me pity said GM, as they probably don't realize they've opened a can of einsteinian space-time worm(-hole)s with insane destructive potential. Unless the players are able to keep their ideas in check, the above type of weapons of mass destruction is just the tip of the iceberg...

[lightningcat]

You might be better off unhooking your Helm from your ship and reattaching it to the astroid and then moving it that way. Then reattach it to the ship to make your getaway. You have 2 spellcasters so it would work as long as the Helm is capable of moving the astroid.

[VelociRapture12]

You might be better off unhooking your Helm from your ship and reattaching it to the astroid and then moving it that way. Then reattach it to the ship to make your getaway. You have 2 spellcasters so it would work as long as the Helm is capable of moving the astroid.

We thought if this and the DM says that one helm won't be enough to move the asteroid.

[unseenmage]

We thought if this and the DM says that one helm won't be enough to move the asteroid.

Find a smaller asteroid? Keep this one and mine it for whatever is in it that makes it immovable?

More seriously, this sounds more like your GM doesnt want you to do this thing.
And for my part I'm having a tough time figuring out how you're going to pull it off without a much larger time frame or much higher level spells.

[upho]

Find a smaller asteroid?This. I mean, it's an asteroid belt! And assuming granite density (167 lb./ft.3), a 500' diameter roughly spherical asteroid would have a mass of... *does boring math* ... no less than about 5 million tons. Which seems to be not only extremely difficult to try and move and aim within a reasonable time frame, but also ridiculous overkill. Unless perhaps if the space-orc base covers the entire moon...

Otherwise, anything with a mass of say a thousand pounds or so should be way more than enough to easily penetrate defenses against minor meteorites and turn the base into a pile of rubble. Especially if there's little or no atmosphere to reduce velocity, as then you'd likely be able to quickly accelerate such a relatively small projectile and have it impact at well above mach 30 (using RL rocket velocities as a very rough frame of reference). So, do you have anything you can fill up with water from the decanter and dump? A few metal barrels would probably be more than sufficient without an atmosphere.

Most importantly, if you're successful doing it this way, you can (sorta) claim you took out an orc space station by throwing water balloons at it... :smallbiggrin:


More seriously, this sounds more like your GM doesnt want you to do this thing.And even more this. I'd actually ask the GM if absolutely needed. And keep in mind that it may be preferable to simply land and do the riskier old-school grind with weapons in hand, depending on whether you suspect the orcs may have valuables and/or prisoners you care about. On top of this, annihilating an entire space station of humanoids - orcs or not - seems pretty darn morally questionable, to say the least...

[VelociRapture12]

This. I mean, it's an asteroid belt! And assuming granite density (167 lb./ft.3), a 500' diameter roughly spherical asteroid would have a mass of... *does boring math* ... no less than about 5 million tons. Which seems to be not only extremely difficult to try and move and aim within a reasonable time frame, but also ridiculous overkill. Unless perhaps if the space-orc base covers the entire moon...

Otherwise, anything with a mass of say a thousand pounds or so should be way more than enough to easily penetrate defenses against minor meteorites and turn the base into a pile of rubble. Especially if there's little or no atmosphere to reduce velocity, as then you'd likely be able to quickly accelerate such a relatively small projectile and have it impact at well above mach 30 (using RL rocket velocities as a very rough frame of reference). So, do you have anything you can fill up with water from the decanter and dump? A few metal barrels would probably be more than sufficient without an atmosphere.

Most importantly, if you're successful doing it this way, you can (sorta) claim you took out an orc space station by throwing water balloons at it... :smallbiggrin:

And even more this. I'd actually ask the GM if absolutely needed. And keep in mind that it may be preferable to simply land and do the riskier old-school grind with weapons in hand, depending on whether you suspect the orcs may have valuables and/or prisoners you care about. On top of this, annihilating an entire space station of humanoids - orcs or not - seems pretty darn morally questionable, to say the least...

We might talk to him about this, however with the amount of time invested and Items being crafted to attempt to move this rock, it would require a substantial retcon....

As for any moral implications we expect this to be more of a military staging base, it was mined in to this moon, its about 2000' wide and like 300-600' in the ground. (I suppose I should have mentioned this in my original post, my bad...) We have seen what these orcs are equipped with and its all +1 weapons, even the "grunts", the weapons are all "Identical and unmarked" as well as magical armor. The main hook for attacking this base of orc's is based on the lizardfolk Hatchery ship the took over and slaughtered all of the guards and hatchlings. So we have been hired by some of the lizardfolk to deal with the people responsible.

EDIT: Update, one of the other people, in my group, did the math for an object similar to the objects used for the kinetic drop satellites (referenced in OP) and it looks like we will be using one of those. For the more math minded, the object will be roughly one metric ton and sized to just fit into a single shrink item spell. The plan is to shoot the object at the base at Spell Jamming speed from our front ballista.

[upho]

EDIT: Update, one of the other people, in my group, did the math for an object similar to the objects used for the kinetic drop satellites (referenced in OP) and it looks like we will be using one of those. For the more math minded, the object will be roughly one metric ton and sized to just fit into a single shrink item spell. The plan is to shoot the object at the base at Spell Jamming speed from our front ballista.That'll more than likely do the job, and more. Great thinking. But wouldn't a ton of tungsten/similar at full L-U-N-A-T-I-C - L-A-Z-O-R - S-P-E-E-D™ go straight through such a small moon? :smalleek:

Well, at least those poor orcs won't have to suffer; they'll be blown back into stardust in nanosecond... :smallfrown:

More seriously, it struck me (pun intended) that if this is a military staging base, I'd assume it has some kind of automatic active defense system to protect against this kind of attack, for example by blowing your "Rod of God" into a harmless cloud of fine metal debris before it hits the surface. To me it seems any kind of "dump heavy object at stupidly high speed"-shenanigans would be old news in a universe with both magic and interstellar travel speeds. At least if said heavy object's mass is at least somewhat reasonable, so far less than a 5 million ton asteroid. So if I played a PC who didn't dump Int in this scenario, I'd most likely suggest doing as much research and careful scouting as possible to find out whether this plan even has a decent chance of succeeding, before potentially wasting a ton of perfectly fine super-hard shiny metal on some kind of space-orc anti-missile defense system and put the base in "code red" high alert mode.

Have you considered this?

Btw, I'd love to hear how this actually ends!

[VelociRapture12]

That'll more than likely do the job, and more. Great thinking. But wouldn't a ton of tungsten/similar at full L-U-N-A-T-I-C - L-A-Z-O-R - S-P-E-E-D™ go straight through such a small moon? :smalleek:

Well, at least those poor orcs won't have to suffer; they'll be blown back into stardust in nanosecond... :smallfrown:

More seriously, it struck me (pun intended) that if this is a military staging base, I'd assume it has some kind of automatic active defense system to protect against this kind of attack, for example by blowing your "Rod of God" into a harmless cloud of fine metal debris before it hits the surface. To me it seems any kind of "dump heavy object at stupidly high speed"-shenanigans would be old news in a universe with both magic and interstellar travel speeds. At least if said heavy object's mass is at least somewhat reasonable, so far less than a 5 million ton asteroid. So if I played a PC who didn't dump Int in this scenario, I'd most likely suggest doing as much research and careful scouting as possible to find out whether this plan even has a decent chance of succeeding, before potentially wasting a ton of perfectly fine super-hard shiny metal on some kind of space-orc anti-missile defense system and put the base in "code red" high alert mode.

Have you considered this?

Btw, I'd love to hear how this actually ends!

We have been able to determine that as long as we get this object in the same quadrant as the base it should destroy it, especially with it being an over glorified cave. As for the defenses we are planning on delving down into the base before in one of the captured "shuttle ships" to try and steal one of their warships. so hopefully we can spot anything on our way down.

[VelociRapture12]

Ok! So we had the session where we actually pulled off the plan, and while we accomplished the original goal. We ended up not being as effective as we hoped.

The Rod of Death and Destruction (Patent Pending), worked just like we thought it would. However the DM decided that the moment we showed up is the moment that the big ship we were concerned was there.... was leaving the base as we approached. Though some misunderstanding, and possibly DM fiat, the ship left to spell jamming speed just as we were firing our "super weapon". The ship, as the DM described it was made entirely out of +1 Steel. So that's a thing.

[unseenmage]

Still definitely sounds like the GM did not want that plan to succeed. At least insofar as that ship is concerned.

[upho]

Ok! So we had the session where we actually pulled off the plan, and while we accomplished the original goal. We ended up not being as effective as we hoped.

The Rod of Death and Destruction (Patent Pending), worked just like we thought it would.Whoa! Does the moon look like a giant donut now? What happened to the space station? Have all the PCs in the party turned EVIL™ now? Are you already dyeing your cloaks black and shopping for matching wheezing breathing masks, quilted leather pants and various black boxes with antique switches and lights from Earth? Found a retailer of shiny black elongated nazi-like helmets at a reasonable price yet? Joined the proper 501st detachment (http://www.501stsithlords.com/sld-crl.html)? :smalltongue:


However the DM decided that the moment we showed up is the moment that the big ship we were concerned was there.... was leaving the base as we approached. Though some misunderstanding, and possibly DM fiat, the ship left to spell jamming speed just as we were firing our "super weapon". The ship, as the DM described it was made entirely out of +1 Steel. So that's a thing.Aww... Sucks. But really, I'm not at all surprised, considering:
Still definitely sounds like the GM did not want that plan to succeed. At least insofar as that ship is concerned.Yes, this is most certainly the case.

But at least the players got a chance to be creative and harness the insane power of RL physics using PF magic.

[VelociRapture12]

Whoa! Does the moon look like a giant donut now? What happened to the space station? Have all the PCs in the party turned EVIL™ now? Are you already dyeing your cloaks black and shopping for matching wheezing breathing masks, quilted leather pants and various black boxes with antique switches and lights from Earth? Found a retailer of shiny black elongated nazi-like helmets at a reasonable price yet? Joined the proper 501st detachment (http://www.501stsithlords.com/sld-crl.html)? :smalltongue:

Noooooo...... *Hides all the black armor paint behind my back* In reality he wasn't to worried about us destroying the base, and its entirely possible we didn't kill everyone. Though now that I think about it, that might make us more EVIL™.:smalleek: These scrow are from another sphere, as the sphere we are currently in has eradicated its scrow population, and are hell bent on destroying all life in our sphere. Most of us are already CN and the DM really doesn't like the alignment system already in place. I hear he's working on something to replace it... Also no, since we used rods of asteroid, the moon stayed mostly intact, I think we turned to rubble about 5 miles of the surface and defiantly collapsed the cave they had dug out.



Aww... Sucks. But really, I'm not at all surprised, considering:


Still definitely sounds like the GM did not want that plan to succeed. At least insofar as that ship is concerned.

Yes, this is most certainly the case.

I mean kinda? Like previously stated, we mistimed the attack. We knew that we were on a tight time scale, and we got there to see the ship for one round, however we had to line up our shot and travel back out to shoot, it was in that time frame that the other ship got away. We thought that we had explained it differently and the DM thought she had explained the position of things more clearly. It actually led to a 30min discussion on what exactly happened before the encounter was actually resolved.


But at least the players got a chance to be creative and harness the insane power of RL physics using PF magic.

This is a huge part of why I still play in this game, its incredibly fun to walk into a room and tell physics to only keep quiet while I destroy a moon with both conventional means and magic. Since we are only 8th level we don't exactly have access to Moon Destruction MagicTM.