Crits as a resource

[Crucius]

(this is going to be such a bad idea)

So I had this thought; I like crits, but I also like things I can depend on. Taking inspiration from Fallout 4 (not that you should get inspired by that game on anything really, except how to ruin a franchise, but that's a whole different topic), there crits are racked up by engaging in tactical combat.

The rule/feat (this will be in addition to the standard (random) crit rules, not instead of):
During combat, even a failed strike nets you knowledge about your own fighting style, your enemy or increased pressure to perform:

Whenever you make an attack roll and miss, you gain 1 point. You gain 2 points if that attack was made with advantage (and maybe 3 points if Elven Accuracy or Lucky were involved). However, you get 0 points if that attack was made with disadvantage (to disincentivize missing on purpose on weaker enemies to save up crits, though there are surely ways you could still do that I am missing here). You can get a maximum of n points (right now I feel n=10). Before you make an attack roll, you can spend n points to ensure your next attack hits and is a critical hit. (again n=10, but could be higher)

Mostly I just wanna hear how bad of an idea this is. I had this picture in my head of a warrior talking **** to some guard, threatening to cut him down with ease, and with a crit in his pocket being able to put his gold coin where his mouth is...

...And then I had a picture in my head of a paladin smiting foes and that's where this idea became really bad. Or not, I don't really know, so I am curious what you think.

[Shuruke]

Id experiment with it

As long as your just doing it for fun and your players aren't power gaming a build around it u should be fine

Tbh when I hand out inspiration instead of granting advantage it adds a lucky esq dice
If u really need to make that skill and have advantage u can roll a third dice

If u have disadvantage choose any of 3 dice as your roll

If you choose to use it on an attack it only grants advantage but on hit its a crit.

Its only been used on an attack once
So far its mainly been for lying by low cha characters or the bard hitting on monsters

[Aett_Thorn]

How would this system account for something like a Champion Fighter, which has a class feature allowing them to Crit more often?

[RickAsWritten]

Hah, I like this. One of my players renownedly unlucky and also a big Fallout fan. I may give him something like this as a magic item.

[Crucius]

How would this system account for something like a Champion Fighter, which has a class feature allowing them to Crit more often?

Well normal crits can still happen of course, so they would benefit from both features; one for random crits, one for saving up for crits.

[Crucius]

Hah, I like this. One of my players renownedly unlucky and also a big Fallout fan. I may give him something like this as a magic item.

I guess it does work well as a magical item. The points being charges and the DM being able to directly give it to a specific PC so the... fallout... is contained.

[Aett_Thorn]

Well normal crits can still happen of course, so they would benefit from both features; one for random crits, one for saving up for crits.

Ah, sorry, I thought that you were suggesting this as a replacement system. My bad.

But yeah, your biggest problem is going to be giving guaranteed hits and crits to classes that can really make use of them, like Rogues and Paladins. Just be prepared for players of these classes to store up some crits so that when they get to the BBEG, they can 1-turn KO them.

[Crucius]

Ah, sorry, I thought that you were suggesting this as a replacement system. My bad.

But yeah, your biggest problem is going to be giving guaranteed hits and crits to classes that can really make use of them, like Rogues and Paladins. Just be prepared for players of these classes to store up some crits so that when they get to the BBEG, they can 1-turn KO them.

No, my bad for not phrasing my original post properly.

The guaranteed hit thing also irks me somewhat, but otherwise it's not the true 'f*ck you' button I want it to be.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's problematic as a universal system because of how uneven its effects are-- a Fighter dual wielding shortswords will get less benefit than a Barbarian with a greatsword, who'll in turn get less benefit than a Rogue.

I like the idea, though, so it may be workable with an alternate system. Maybe instead of a crit, you call it a "Called Shot" or something and have it give a flat benefit-- say an auto-hit that deals an extra 5+level damage.

Keeping the points from carrying over between rests is definitely a good idea as well.

[Crucius]

To avoid players stocking up on points too often, you should probably make the points be lost on a short/long rest. This way, they are more likely to be used in the moment they're gained. Also, if your players like to hoard points, this discentivizes the 15 minute workday.

That's a good one!

I've been seeing the 15 minute adventure day pop up in a few posts lately, what exactly is that? Is it that a party long-rests after each fight?

[Maelynn]

I may give him something like this as a magic item.

I really like this use of the idea. For general use I fear it might be abused, like someone said they somehow manage to build around it.. but it would make a very nice customised magic item. Like a weapon suited for a specific character who doesn't really get to shine during combat. Or who always has awful rolls. You could also present it in amulet form, but then you might risk someone else in the party running off with it.


To avoid players stocking up on points too often, you should probably make the points be lost on a short/long rest. This way, they are more likely to be used in the moment they're gained. Also, if your players like to hoard points, this discentivizes the 15 minute workday.

Frankly, I think that's too harsh. Take into consideration that every point they earn is a missed attack - getting a crit after 10 points means that extra damage has to compensate for 10 missed damage rolls.

I'd probably use an opposite of the way regaining charges work with magic items: at dawn, the weapon loses 1d4+1 charges. Or you could increase it to 1d6+1 if you don't want to go easy on them.

[Dungeon-noob]

This is an interesting idea. I don't have enough crunch skills to really add anything, but i'll keep it in mind for interesting magic items. I do agree that it probably doesn't work great as a general system. Hhhmmmm, could you use it for homebrew feats, fighting styles, or subclass features?

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is an interesting idea. I don't have enough crunch skills to really add anything, but i'll keep it in mind for interesting magic items. I do agree that it probably doesn't work great as a general system. Hhhmmmm, could you use it for homebrew feats, fighting styles, or subclass features?
I'd be leery of a feat (which anyone could pick up), but a subclass would work well.

[Crucius]

Frankly, I think that's too harsh. Take into consideration that every point they earn is a missed attack - getting a crit after 10 points means that extra damage has to compensate for 10 missed damage rolls.

Not necessarily compensate. A player is bound to miss sometimes, and to avoid gaming the mechanic it is actually better to not be 'worth' 10 attacks of damage. It is just to... soothe a miss and to turn it into an epic moment later on.


I'd probably use an opposite of the way regaining charges work with magic items: at dawn, the weapon loses 1d4+1 charges. Or you could increase it to 1d6+1 if you don't want to go easy on them.

I like this better indeed. That way if an adventuring day is low on combat they are not all lost at once. It should be a nice little extra, and not create a totally different playstyle where players rush many attacks to stock up on the crit.

[Crucius]

I'd be leery of a feat (which anyone could pick up), but a subclass would work well.

I agree, as a general rule or feat it could get sketchy quick, but it makes for an interesting (albeit somewhat complex) item or subclass.

[Corran]

I'd be leery of a feat (which anyone could pick up), but a subclass would work well.
+1
Otherwise (ie if it is a feat or a fighting style, or sth like that), you will probably have to balance it taking into account certain classes/builds that will profit tremendously from it (like rogues, paladins, warlocks), and that would mean that this rule/feat/fs will variate too much in term of effectiveness, as it will end up being too poor for most classes if at the same time we want it to be good but not op for a few others. I think a subclass is a more elegant solution (as you can easily push back however much you want the benefits to prevent mc abuse). Mechanically speaking, I think the idea is interesting and I can see reasons for devoting a subclass to it. Thematically, I think it's a bit of bloat (but that's besides the point of the thread). So yeah, mechanically, I find it interesting.

[Wildarm]

(this is going to be such a bad idea)

So I had this thought; I like crits, but I also like things I can depend on. Taking inspiration from Fallout 4 (not that you should get inspired by that game on anything really, except how to ruin a franchise, but that's a whole different topic), there crits are racked up by engaging in tactical combat.

The rule/feat (this will be in addition to the standard (random) crit rules, not instead of):
During combat, even a failed strike nets you knowledge about your own fighting style, your enemy or increased pressure to perform:

Whenever you make an attack roll and miss, you gain 1 point. You gain 2 points if that attack was made with advantage (and maybe 3 points if Elven Accuracy or Lucky were involved). However, you get 0 points if that attack was made with disadvantage (to disincentivize missing on purpose on weaker enemies to save up crits, though there are surely ways you could still do that I am missing here). You can get a maximum of n points (right now I feel n=10). Before you make an attack roll, you can spend n points to ensure your next attack hits and is a critical hit. (again n=10, but could be higher)

Mostly I just wanna hear how bad of an idea this is. I had this picture in my head of a warrior talking **** to some guard, threatening to cut him down with ease, and with a crit in his pocket being able to put his gold coin where his mouth is...

...And then I had a picture in my head of a paladin smiting foes and that's where this idea became really bad. Or not, I don't really know, so I am curious what you think.

This would be a good feature on a magic weapon. I would make the crit cost lower and add a bit of flexibility.

+1 Longsword of Wisdom(Rare) - Requires Attunement by character proficient in marshal weapons

Each time you miss a weapon attack with this weapon, add a knowledge point to the sword

As a free action you can:

Spend 1 knowledge point - You learn one resistance or weakness of an enemy
Spend 2 knowledge points - Your next attack is made with advantage
Spend 5 knowledge points - Your next attack that hits becomes a critical hit

The swords knowledge points reset to zero after each long rest

You'd likely be getting something like this in tier 2. Lets say 2 attacks per round and a going against high AC opponents use a 50% hit rate. 5 rounds of combat grants you a crit when you need it. Fighting easier to hit foes gives you less insight. Against a tough opponent when you happen to get 5 straight misses, your 6th attack, assuming it hits becomes a crit. Not a bad tradeoff for all those bad rolls.

Outside of smite or SA nova abuse, that gives you effectively 10% more damage(6x weapon damage per 10 attacks vs 5x weapon damage). Pretty balanced for a rare sword I think. May consider something like this for my game.

It would be a useful item in Tier 2 and start to lose effectiveness in Tier 3 due to being only +1 and bounded accuracy meaning you miss less and less.

[Vogie]

If you separate it from crits, you could make a feat that gives a "Momentum" style feat, with every miss and attack-with-disadvantage increases the damage of the next hit. You could possibly add some sort of way to attack with disadvantage to trigger it. That would certainly work.

But for Crits specifically, that sounds like a subclass feature.

I could see an fate-bending or assassin-esque Rogue feature that allows you to store a crit when it occurs naturally. I'd probably write it like the Divination Wizard's Portent Ability, so you start with 2 d20 rolls, then can swap a Crit for one of them, then use that critical hit on demand (maximum 2).

[Tanarii]

This has the same issue as fumbles, but in reverse. It's better for players that make more attacks. Not sure that's actually a problem though. Maybe?

Also quickest way to prevent hoarding is just to limit it to one 'banked' crit, with new misses no accruing until the crit is used.


To avoid players stocking up on points too often, you should probably make the points be lost on a short/long rest. This way, they are more likely to be used in the moment they're gained. Also, if your players like to hoard points, this discentivizes the 15 minute workday.I'm curious how many misses, and by extension rounds of combat, you typically expect per short rest or long rest.

[malachi]

This has the same issue as fumbles, but in reverse. It's better for players that make more attacks. Not sure that's actually a problem though. Maybe?

I was going to say "no, I don't think this is a problem", but then I thought through it some more:

Fighters get 2 - 5 attacks a turn, depending on weapon selection, and get moderate benefit from a crit (+[W]+SuperiorityDie).
-TWF BattleMaster gets +8 at lvl 3-9, or +10 at lvl 18
-Greataxe BattleMaster gets +11 at lvl 3-9, or +13 at lvl 20

Rogues get 1 - 2 attacks a turn, and get a large boost from a crit (almost double damage). TWF Rogues benefit a bunch (+[W]+SneakAttack), but are potentially trading off mobility to get the off-hand attacks (unless Mobile / Swashbuckler)
-TWF Rogue gets +10.5 damage at lvl 3, up to +38.5 at lvl 20

Paladins get 2 - 3 attacks a turn, and with this change they would know how soon a crit would occur, and could ration their spells accordingly. They get +[W]+Smite damage on a crit.
-TWF Paladin gets +17 at lvl 3 (1.5 times a day w/ 2 lvl 1 smites), up to +53 damage once a day at 20 (5d8 regular smite + lazy accounting of 5d8 spell smite + 1d8 IDS). Using only one smite on each give +12.5 at lvl 3 (3 times), and +30.5 at 20 (2 times).

Warlocks get 2-4 attacks a turn, and could spend a crit on a high powered attack spell damage roll (so their bonus damage depends on level, and I'm too lazy to figure out what relevant spells they actually get).



In all these cases, ranged attacks allow a character to intentionally miss more often (moving such that the target has cover), and Sharpshooter / GWM allow increased miss chance for higher damage (luckily this change doesn't impact the +10 damage).
Half-orcs get additional damage as well.


According to my simple analysis (two d6 weapons vs one d12 weapon with -5/+10), regardless of how many charges are needed to trigger the crit, a Paladin with -5/+10 gets the most benefit from this, while a Rogue will be doing the most damage with this (assuming the Paladin only smites on crits). A GWM Fighter is just barely behind the rogue.

TWF rogue or a Sharpshooter / XBow Expert Rogue deal very similar damage (43.9 vs 44.4) when they have a base 0.65% chance to hit.

[Crucius]

Also quickest way to prevent hoarding is just to limit it to one 'banked' crit, with new misses no accruing until the crit is used.

This was indeed already part of the design; the number of charges/points you need is also the maximum amount you can have.

[Crucius]

Using GWM/SS to lower hit chance to save up for a crit is a double edged sword. Sure you get that crit sooner, but you are missing out on at least 50-100 damage (depending on how many points for a crit).

Cover is an interesting tidbit I hadn't considered yet. It all depends on how gamey the players approach this I guess.

[Thrudd]

I think the immediate problem with this is how much it will slow down combat, you're adding extra things to keep track of from turn to turn. This is easy for a computer to do, but it's going to feel unwieldy doing it by hand. It's the same problem with earlier editions when you're constantly trying to keep track of bonuses and penalties on everything- this is what advantage/disadvantage is supposed to get rid of, so combat can flow more quickly and keep the excitement higher.

[LibraryOgre]

What about something simpler... every time you roll a crit, you get a chit. You can use a crit chit to either avoid a fumble or turn a hit into a crit. Lots of people would burn their crit chits as they get the chit, but others might wait for a bit, and keep the crit chit to save them if things go to ****. Make it so crit chits reset at a long rest, so you have an incentive to use them, avoiding the guy who hoards them until the end of the adventure.

[Man_Over_Game]

I feel like the tallying would be unnecessary. 5 players at the table, all bean counting when their dice rolls poorly?

Why not just have it so that when you crit, you can choose to save it. Kinda like Inspiration? Now, rather than tracking a number of points per each character, it's just a single token that grants them a free roll of 20 on something of their choosing. Like Super Inspiration.

[Aussiehams]

I like it as a magic weapon property. Maybe 5 charges, and it replaces d4+1 a day? Or when you get critted against?

I know it's different to what your thinking, and doesn't have the "learning from my mistakes" angle, but it's simpler and has less book keeping.

[Crucius]

I feel like the tallying would be unnecessary. 5 players at the table, all bean counting when their dice rolls poorly?

Why not just have it so that when you crit, you can choose to save it. Kinda like Inspiration? Now, rather than tracking a number of points per each character, it's just a single token that grants them a free roll of 20 on something of their choosing. Like Super Inspiration.

I get what you mean, adding more bookkeeping is certainly not a good idea. I'll reflect more on this, especially in conjunction with your (and Mark Hall's) ideas. Thanks.

[Urukubarr]

this would be a good idea for a magic item or a feat maybe. as I too any many others thought that was a neat mechanic in Fallout 4. and some precedent does exist in game (assassin) for having guaranteed crits on conditions.

the problem I have with that mechanic in general play is everyone would save crits for the boss, and thus you might have to inflate the boss to withstand a party wide round of critical hits (and that defeats the purpose and is a bad idea as a DM overall)

but as an item that came with conditions, say you can store a critical hit but cannot benefit from any further critical hits as long as you have one stored? that's fair I think. I would do something like that.

[Jerrykhor]

I just know that if i ever allow such a feat, my paladin player who is a big munchkin is definitely gonna take this feat. He doesn't care for anything other option if it dont increase his damage, and guaranteed hit and crit is too good too pass up, especially when he can stack GWM+Smite on top of them.

So I'd say no to this. Paladins for one would be super overpowered with their nova, stacking GWM+Spell Smite+Divine Smite+Possible bonus damage dice from magic weapon into one big crit.

[Dungeon-noob]

this would be a good idea for a magic item or a feat maybe. as I too any many others thought that was a neat mechanic in Fallout 4. and some precedent does exist in game (assassin) for having guaranteed crits on conditions.

the problem I have with that mechanic in general play is everyone would save crits for the boss, and thus you might have to inflate the boss to withstand a party wide round of critical hits (and that defeats the purpose and is a bad idea as a DM overall)

but as an item that came with conditions, say you can store a critical hit but cannot benefit from any further critical hits as long as you have one stored? that's fair I think. I would do something like that.
Counterargument: Adamantite armor. Whatever you're throwing at the players is now immune to crits. Makes it a lot easier to balance, right?