Tempest cleric destructive wrath question

[stoutstien]

So the tempest cleric domain has the ability to maximize a damage roll. When does this happen? Before or after the actual roll?

..WHEN you roll lighting or thunder........you can INSTEAD deal maximum damage.

So RAW, it could be argued that a player could roll for damage then maximize it seeing how it's not worded in a way to prevent it or disallow it.
Examples would be divination wizards portent clearly states you must use it before the rolls takes place or bards inspiration that allows to see the roll

Did I miss an ettra or something?

[Willie the Duck]

So the tempest cleric domain has the ability to maximize a damage roll. When does this happen? Before or after the actual roll?

..WHEN you roll lighting or thunder........you can INSTEAD deal maximum damage.

So RAW, it could be argued that a player could roll for damage then maximize it seeing how it's not worded in a way to prevent it or disallow it.
Examples would be divination wizards portent clearly states you must use it before the rolls takes place or bards inspiration that allows to see the roll

Did I miss an ettra or something?

I am AFB at the moment, but with the wording you described, you could argue it both ways. When you roll, you roll and then to decide (after seeing the roll's results) to instead deal max damage. Or When you come to the point where you roll, instead of rolling, you deal max damage. It depends on if the 'instead' modifies the term 'roll' or 'deal,' and for that we're going to need the rest of the quote.

[RogueJK]

Whole quote reads:

"When you roll lightning or thunder damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage, instead of rolling."

Note the final portion. Instead of rolling.

You decide to maximize before you roll damage. You then don't roll for damage at all.

[stoutstien]

Whole quote reads:

"When you roll lightning or thunder damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage, instead of rolling."

Note the final portion. Instead of rolling.

You decide to maximize before you roll damage. You then don't roll damage at all.

Which would be just great if WHEN was any other preposition. You can decide to not roll while rolling?

[Willie the Duck]

Which would be just great if WHEN was any other preposition. You can decide to not roll while rolling?

If previous thread are an indication, the designers might have different ideas about the word When than others. When seems to mean 'when you get to the point where one normally...' so it might indicate 'When you otherwise would start rolling dice, you can instead do maximum damage.'

I know you might not find that perfectly satisfying. We have a whole recent shield-bashing thread making clear that people don't like that.

[clash]

WotC just isnt very good with their timing vocabulary. Look at the verbiage of portent
"You can replace any attack roll, saving throw, or ability check made by you or a creature that you can see with one of these foretelling rolls. You must choose to do so before the roll, and you can replace a roll in this way only once per turn"

The first sentence clearly states that a creature "made" an attack roll, saving throw, or ability check which would imply they have already rolled, but it later specifies that it is actually before rolling. I think in this case the "instead of rolling" in much more descriptive to how it actually works then "when rolling".

[RogueJK]

Which would be just great if WHEN was any other preposition. You can decide to not roll while rolling?

It's fairly clear as written. But I agree that they could have erased any remaining room for confusion by starting the sentence with something like "when you would roll..." or "when you could roll...".

[stoutstien]

I can care less for RAW. was really seeing how most people rule it or if seeing how I have an old printing if they have changed the wording.

[Jerrykhor]

So the tempest cleric domain has the ability to maximize a damage roll. When does this happen? Before or after the actual roll?

..WHEN you roll lighting or thunder........you can INSTEAD deal maximum damage.

So RAW, it could be argued that a player could roll for damage then maximize it seeing how it's not worded in a way to prevent it or disallow it.
Examples would be divination wizards portent clearly states you must use it before the rolls takes place or bards inspiration that allows to see the roll

Did I miss an ettra or something?

It means what it says. The key word is 'instead', and I have never doubted or misunderstood the application of this ability, nor has anyone at my table.

There is nothing to be argued. Go and understand what 'instead' means first before you jump to conclusions.

[stoutstien]

It means what it says. The key word is 'instead', and I have never doubted or misunderstood the application of this ability, nor has anyone at my table.

There is nothing to be argued. Go and understand what 'instead' means first before you jump to conclusions.
Well instead can mean rather or as a substitute so no help from that. And the whole channel lacks tense other than "roll" which can be conjugated in all but indicative. Good thing you came along and pointed out why I miss understood this class feature.
Oh wait...

[Jerrykhor]

Well instead can mean rather or as a substitute so no help from that. And the whole channel lacks tense other than "roll" which can be conjugated in all but indicative. Good thing you came along and pointed out why I miss understood this class feature.
Oh wait...

Reading comprehension is such a rare skill these days. I'll explain it with example from actual play:

Player: I cast Shatter

DM: Roll damage (That's what 'when you roll thunder/lightning' means)

Player: I use Destructive Wrath

DM: OK

[stoutstien]

Reading comprehension is such a rare skill these days. I'll explain it with example from actual play:

Player: I cast Shatter

DM: Roll damage (That's what 'when you roll thunder/lightning' means)

Player: I use Destructive Wrath

DM: OK
1) I agree that is a reasonable way of reading it. In fact my original post is based on that.
2) based on syntax patterns in the rest of the book, this is probably RAI.
3) internationally, reading comprehension is at an all time high.
4) if your player declared destructive wrath before they roll it's not when they rolled. It was clearly before the roll took place. I could see, when a spell is cast the player can instead maximize damage or as other have said a simple before instead of when could clean it up.
English is my third language and I doubt I'm alone in the frustration of lack of clear intent of some of the wording in 5e manuals.

[Jerrykhor]

1) I agree that is a reasonable way of reading it. In fact my original post is based on that.
2) based on syntax patterns in the rest of the book, this is probably RAI.
3) internationally, reading comprehension is at an all time high.
4) if your player declared destructive wrath before they roll it's not when they rolled. It was clearly before the roll took place. I could see, when a spell is cast the player can instead maximize damage or as other have said a simple before instead of when could clean it up.
English is my third language and I doubt I'm alone in the frustration of lack of clear intent of some of the wording in 5e manuals.

Seems like you lack common sense as well. If you prefer, you can toss the damage dice on the table and before they finish rolling, yell 'DESTRUCTIVE WRATH!' But i dont see what's the point in that.

When they say 'when you roll...' it doesnt literally mean the act of rolling the dice itself. Just like the Attack action is not the weapon attack itself.

Your grammar seems quite on point for your third language.

[Citan]

So the tempest cleric domain has the ability to maximize a damage roll. When does this happen? Before or after the actual roll?

..WHEN you roll lighting or thunder........you can INSTEAD deal maximum damage.

So RAW, it could be argued that a player could roll for damage then maximize it seeing how it's not worded in a way to prevent it or disallow it.
Examples would be divination wizards portent clearly states you must use it before the rolls takes place or bards inspiration that allows to see the roll

Did I miss an ettra or something?
Hi!

It means what it says. The key word is 'instead', and I have never doubted or misunderstood the application of this ability, nor has anyone at my table.

There is nothing to be argued. Go and understand what 'instead' means first before you jump to conclusions.
While I disagree on the useless hinted agressivity and judgemental tone of Jerrykhor, I agree with him that there is no doubt to be had.

You probably questioned yourself because you memorized the ability in a slightly different wording. But...

Confer post just under.

Whole quote reads:

"When you roll lightning or thunder damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage, instead of rolling."

Note the final portion. Instead of rolling.

You decide to maximize before you roll damage. You then don't roll for damage at all.
This should be clear enough.
The important bit that allows to avoid any doubt is the "position" of the "instead of rolling", or rather the comma that separates it from the rest.

Sentence is divided in three parts, as commas indicate: first is the "trigger", second is the ability, third is the moment of decision.

In other words, "when you roll" is a (admitedly bad) shortcut for "when you are gonna roll".
But "instead of rolling" implies that you decide before.

Otherwise they would have used the same wording as with other "roll affecting features" such as Bardic Inspiration or Lucky, such as "you can replace the result of the roll with maximum damage".

---> When in doubt, a good practice is checking similar features to determine the degree of "granularity" devs used.