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KyleG
2019-02-21, 01:13 AM
What other magic schools apart from the 8 presented would you come up with or do you think are missing.
Perhaps a time/space one? Would you classify some clerical spells as a school? or even multiple schools?

Asking for a friend ;)

Lanth Sor
2019-02-21, 11:29 AM
When it comes to schools of magic you could throw all the schools out the window and start form scratch. The reason most don't is it would mean reclassing the entire list of spells and every new spell that entered the game. The spheres of power system for pathfinder does create an alternative way of looking at schools as do many RPG video games games.

Elder Scrolls ever changing schools of magic are a great example of what would actually happen from in setting perspective on schools. They are more fluid and each game has spells classed differently and some have debunked schools and other changes in tradition of classification of magic.

Arcanum has 16 magic colleges each more specialized then D&D ones, Time and space gives haste. teleport, and timestop, while there is white necromancy for positive energy and black necromancy for negative energy. Elemental colleges have a low level offensive spell, attribute buff, and eventually summoning an elemental.

DeTess
2019-02-21, 11:48 AM
The 8 schools of magic have been designed to encompass basically all of magic in a standard fantasy setting, so adding additional schools will almost always involve taking away something from a a traditional school.

However, if you move away from the traditional fantasy setting some holes open up. I've recently been reading a third party 5e supplement that introduces mechs (the greasemonkey's handbook, for those interested), and other things associated with a slightly higher tech setting (be it steam-punk, magitech, or sci-fi), which introduced a new school called the school of automation, which focused on spells involved around assembling or disassembling things, manipulating complex automatons and the like, with spells to for example create clockwork creatures, or temporarily reassemble any weapon into a firearm. Even this intrudes a bit on the domain of transmutation, however.

noob
2019-02-21, 11:49 AM
When it comes to schools of magic you could throw all the schools out the window and start form scratch. The reason most don't is it would mean reclassing the entire list of spells and every new spell that entered the game. The spheres of power system for pathfinder does create an alternative way of looking at schools as do many RPG video games games.

Elder Scrolls ever changing schools of magic are a great example of what would actually happen from in setting perspective on schools. They are more fluid and each game has spells classed differently and some have debunked schools and other changes in tradition of classification of magic.

Arcanum has 16 magic colleges each more specialized then D&D ones, Time and space gives haste. teleport, and timestop, while there is white necromancy for positive energy and black necromancy for negative energy. Elemental colleges have a low level offensive spell, attribute buff, and eventually summoning an elemental.

Timestop in dnd is explicitely not doing anything to time: it is just making you faster.

Lanth Sor
2019-02-21, 12:17 PM
Timestop in dnd is explicitely not doing anything to time: it is just making you faster.

I was talking about arcanum, the actual spell is tempest fugit, and i was wrong the colleges are temproal for it, teleport is the top spell for Conveyance (https://arcanum.fandom.com/wiki/Spell_Colleges) college.

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-02-21, 03:21 PM
Personally, I add a Thaumaturgy school in my games for spells dealing directly with magic (dispel magic, antimagic field, Mordenkainen's lucubration, etc.), since "Universal" as a school doesn't make sense ("Let's put a handful of spells in the 'I don't know how they work' school when they totally make sense in an existing school!"). In some but not all games, I also add a Chronomancy school, shifting haste, time stop, etc. to that and pulling in a bunch of spells and cosmology from the 2e Chronomancer book.

I also move Abjuration to being a shared subschool, since it's too grab-bag as is and makes more sense as a subschool, I think--mind blank as Enchantment (Abjuration), protection from energy as Evocation (Abjuration), and so forth.

Otherwise, the base school setup pretty much covers everything.


Elder Scrolls ever changing schools of magic are a great example of what would actually happen from in setting perspective on schools. They are more fluid and each game has spells classed differently and some have debunked schools and other changes in tradition of classification of magic.

D&D does the same thing, actually, with all the settings' ancient high-magic civilizations having done a bunch of research into the nature of magic and many spells changing schools between editions for various reasons. Abjuration was much broader mechanically yet narrower thematically in 1e, "spells about magic" moved from Conjuration in AD&D to Abjuration in 3e, Conjuration (Creation) and Conjuration (Healing) stole big chunks of Evocation and Necromancy respectively, and so forth. Not all of those are good changes (giving even more stuff to Conjuration was a terrible idea), but they're definitely an evolution over time.

noob
2019-02-21, 05:14 PM
Personally, I add a Thaumaturgy school in my games for spells dealing directly with magic (dispel magic, antimagic field, Mordenkainen's lucubration, etc.), since "Universal" as a school doesn't make sense ("Let's put a handful of spells in the 'I don't know how they work' school when they totally make sense in an existing school!"). In some but not all games, I also add a Chronomancy school, shifting haste, time stop, etc. to that and pulling in a bunch of spells and cosmology from the 2e Chronomancer book.

I also move Abjuration to being a shared subschool, since it's too grab-bag as is and makes more sense as a subschool, I think--mind blank as Enchantment (Abjuration), protection from energy as Evocation (Abjuration), and so forth.

Otherwise, the base school setup pretty much covers everything.



D&D does the same thing, actually, with all the settings' ancient high-magic civilizations having done a bunch of research into the nature of magic and many spells changing schools between editions for various reasons. Abjuration was much broader mechanically yet narrower thematically in 1e, "spells about magic" moved from Conjuration in AD&D to Abjuration in 3e, Conjuration (Creation) and Conjuration (Healing) stole big chunks of Evocation and Necromancy respectively, and so forth. Not all of those are good changes (giving even more stuff to Conjuration was a terrible idea), but they're definitely an evolution over time.

conjuration and transmutation are the worst offenders in the "schools with everything" category.

Climowitz
2019-02-21, 06:04 PM
I had actually rebuilt the magic schools. I made them into this:
Remedium: spells that channel positive energy or heal.
Praesidium: spells that block, shield or protect.
Creatio: spells that conjure object or non living things.
Invocatio: spells that conjure living beings.
Motum: spells that changes positions or moves objectives.
Sensu: spells that boost or alters the five senses.
Visum: spells that add knowledge of past future or present.
Imperium: spells that compels creatures.
Exitium: spells that manipulate elemental energy.
Transformatio: spells that alters shape, material or form.
Hallucinatio: spells that modifies senses of others.
Mortum: spells that channel negative energy.
Debilitatio: spells that reduces the capabilities of creatures or objects
Incrementum: spells that boost aptitudes or capabilities of creatures or objects.
Musicorum: spells that need music as a channel to be casted.
Naturum: spells that control or alters nature.

Every spells belongs to either one or two schools.

noob
2019-02-22, 06:36 AM
I had actually rebuilt the magic schools. I made them into this:
Remedium: spells that channel positive energy or heal.
Praesidium: spells that block, shield or protect.
Creatio: spells that conjure object or non living things.
Invocatio: spells that conjure living beings.
Motum: spells that changes positions or moves objectives.
Sensu: spells that boost or alters the five senses.
Visum: spells that add knowledge of past future or present.
Imperium: spells that compels creatures.
Exitium: spells that manipulate elemental energy.
Transformatio: spells that alters shape, material or form.
Hallucinatio: spells that modifies senses of others.
Mortum: spells that channel negative energy.
Debilitatio: spells that reduces the capabilities of creatures or objects
Incrementum: spells that boost aptitudes or capabilities of creatures or objects.
Musicorum: spells that need music as a channel to be casted.
Naturum: spells that control or alters nature.

Every spells belongs to either one or two schools.

So would animate object be in incrementum?
And for polymorph any object how many schools would it have?
What about spells that gives an extra sense or manipulate one of the 22 senses that are not within the five senses: they can not be in Sensu.

Climowitz
2019-02-24, 10:26 PM
So would animate object be in incrementum?
And for polymorph any object how many schools would it have?
What about spells that gives an extra sense or manipulate one of the 22 senses that are not within the five senses: they can not be in Sensu.

1. Animate object would be both incrementum and transformatio.
2. Polymorph any object would be transformatio
3. If you get a different sense from a new part of your body then it would be transformatio, if not it would be sensum if it improves an existing one it would be both sensum and incrementum.

noob
2019-02-25, 08:01 AM
1. Animate object would be both incrementum and transformatio.
2. Polymorph any object would be transformatio
3. If you get a different sense from a new part of your body then it would be transformatio, if not it would be sensum if it improves an existing one it would be both sensum and incrementum.
1: the object is not changed it only have its intelligence aptitude boosted so why would it be in transformatio?

2: arguably polymorph any object also allows to change your senses and also to make objects move and also allows to do a whole lot of other things so I think only placing it in one school is absurd because it would mean the effects of changing the senses and of making object move are in fact both possible with pure transformatio.

3:You did not understand what I meant.
Imagine a spell that makes the proprioception of the target detect the enchantment on the target instead of detecting the position of the body of the target.
Since proprioception is not one of the 5 senses but is a sense that the target already had (most humans have proprioception) it does not fits any of the category you gave.(or you could rewrite sensu to not have the number 5 in its definition)

Climowitz
2019-02-25, 10:14 PM
1: the object is not changed it only have its intelligence aptitude boosted so why would it be in transformatio?

2: arguably polymorph any object also allows to change your senses and also to make objects move and also allows to do a whole lot of other things so I think only placing it in one school is absurd because it would mean the effects of changing the senses and of making object move are in fact both possible with pure transformatio.

3:You did not understand what I meant.
Imagine a spell that makes the proprioception of the target detect the enchantment on the target instead of detecting the position of the body of the target.
Since proprioception is not one of the 5 senses but is a sense that the target already had (most humans have proprioception) it does not fits any of the category you gave.(or you could rewrite sensu to not have the number 5 in its definition)

Well it's a game, no need to get all scientific, I guess you can remove five senses and let it be just senses I just said it so it was easier to understand what senses i was referring to.

Bohandas
2019-02-28, 10:44 AM
Personally, I add a Thaumaturgy school in my games for spells dealing directly with magic (dispel magic, antimagic field, Mordenkainen's lucubration, etc.), since "Universal" as a school doesn't make sense ("Let's put a handful of spells in the 'I don't know how they work' school when they totally make sense in an existing school!").

Universal is more "This fits in multiple schools" than "this doesn't fit in any"

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-02-28, 03:03 PM
Universal is more "This fits in multiple schools" than "this doesn't fit in any"

My point was more that having an entire pseudo-school for literally 5 spells in the PHB and 9 spells in the whole game was very inelegant and shows apathy and/or laziness on the designers' part. And of course there are a bunch of spells that could potentially fit in multiple schools if you squint, but dual-school spells were a thing in AD&D and showed up later in 3e, they could have kept them around if they were worried about overlap.

(Yes, the Universal school was technically introduced in Player Option: Spells & Magic, but (A) Player Option stuff was by nature experiment, like Unearthed Arcana, and (B) they put spells like dispel magic, teleport without error, and wizard lock in their proper schools in 3e, so there was no reason to keep Universal around.)

I mean, here are all the "Universal" spells n the game, all of which obviously or very plausibly fit into an existing school:
arcane mark: it makes a permanant inscription with self-concealing properties just like secret page, so it should be Transmutation like secret page.
enhance familiar: this is basically heroism for familiars, so it should be Enchantment.
familiar pocket: obviously Conjuration, like all the other spells that create extradimensional spaces (except rope trick, which is Transmutation because it technically targets the rope).
fortify familiar: obviously Transmutation, like barkskin and elemental familiar which give similar benefits.
imbue familiar with spell ability: obviously Evocation, since imbue with spell ability is.
permanency: should be Transmutation, as both spells that affect spells and time-related spells fall under Transmutation.
prestidigitation: should be Transmutation, as it transmutes objects and also moves things like mage hand, a Transmutation spell.
Limited wish and wish are the closest ones to legitimately fitting in 3+ schools, but (A) if miracle can be so easily placed in Evocation then so could wish, and (B) since wish was Conjuration before 3e (because it explicitly worked by modifying "the actuality of the past, present, or future...but possibly only for the magic-user" and spells to modify the past or access alternate realities were Conjuration), and since 3e Conjuration stole (Creation) from Evocation and (Healing) from Necromancy such that basically all of the "greater effects" fall of wish fall under Conjuration anyway, sticking with Conjuration would also make sense. So either one of those would work, as would a dual-school Conjuration/Evocation.

Essentially, it looks like they just made the Universal school because they didn't want prestidigitation and familiar-related spells to be inaccessible to any given wizard due to prohibited schools...but why do it that way? They could have set it up so every school had one signature familiar-related spell, keeping the four above and adding ones for Abjuration, Divination, Illusion, and Necromancy, for instance. Prestidigitation didn't have to be a single spell of many schools--in 1e, all of its effects were different cantrips, so those could have been kept in 3e since wizards get all cantrips known anyway; in 2e, the prestidigitation equivalent was cantrip, which let you spontaneously cast any cantrip, and so it could be Conjuration and/or Evocation by analogy with wish. Or, heck, in the same way that 1e didn't have explicit 0th-level spells and magic-users just had a class feature to prepare 4 cantrips per 1st-level slot, they could have just made prestidigitation a wizard class feature and made all the familiar-related spells part of a "familiar specialist" ACF so they weren't spells and were thus unaffected by prohibited schools, and called it a day.

What can I say, spell school assignments are a pet peeve of mine and the Universal school really ticks me off.

KyleG
2019-02-28, 07:31 PM
Ok So i think School might have been a stretch of what i was thinking of. So a bit of revision to my question:

Im looking for 7/14 almost element opposites for 14 locations in my campaign. As the theme is around life and time, Im was thinking along the lines MRS GREN might be a good way to look at things but im struggling with opposites
Movement
Respiration - Photosynthesis?
Sensitivity (maybe replace with pain and numbness)?
Growth - Decay
Reproduction - Production?
Excretion
Nutrition

As you can see im pretty stuck so maybe its not the way to go but any suggestions on this or an alternative would be most welcomed.

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-03-01, 04:05 AM
Ah, it sounds like you're looking for something closer to priest spheres or cleric domains, then, since schools are more "technical" ("How does this kind of magic work?" instead of "What's the theme of this grouping of magic?").

You could try to have some "schools" for life and some for time, but let's see if we can come up with a set of categories where all of them work for both:
Vigor (giving things energy and life, or letting people act at time stop speeds)
Growth (growing and improving things, or speeding things up and extending durations)
Sustenance (maintaining and supporting things as they are, or rendering things immune to temporal effects)
Sapience (manipulating thoughts/emotions/sensations, or divining the past and future)
Mutation (making things very different but in a value-neutral sort of way, or changing timelines and such)
Decay (diminishing and weakening things, or slowing things down and cutting things short
Stasis (sapping things of energy and life, or freezing things in time)
Vigor/Stasis, Growth/Decay, and Sustenance/Mutation are opposing pairs, while Sapience isn't opposed by anything (except, perhaps, itself). Those seven categories cover pretty much any effect you might want to make, and 7 categories for 14 sites means you can have two different takes on each one (maybe one life-focused and one time-focused, but not necessarily); for instance, one Decay site could be all fungus themed and focus on a "circle of life" sort of decay, while the other could be full of zombies and crumbling ruins and other remnants of a long-gone decadent civilization and focus on a "how the mighty have fallen" sort of decay.

noob
2019-03-01, 06:30 AM
So polymorph any object would be in vigor(can make objects alive), growth(can grow an improve creatures), sapience(can grant sapience to creatures and objects that did not have it),mutation(can make things very different in a value neutral way) and decay(can weaken or diminish things)

KyleG
2019-03-01, 02:54 PM
Ah, it sounds like you're looking for something closer to priest spheres or cleric domains, then, since schools are more "technical" ("How does this kind of magic work?" instead of "What's the theme of this grouping of magic?").

You could try to have some "schools" for life and some for time, but let's see if we can come up with a set of categories where all of them work for both:
Vigor (giving things energy and life, or letting people act at time stop speeds)
Growth (growing and improving things, or speeding things up and extending durations)
Sustenance (maintaining and supporting things as they are, or rendering things immune to temporal effects)
Sapience (manipulating thoughts/emotions/sensations, or divining the past and future)
Mutation (making things very different but in a value-neutral sort of way, or changing timelines and such)
Decay (diminishing and weakening things, or slowing things down and cutting things short
Stasis (sapping things of energy and life, or freezing things in time)
Vigor/Stasis, Growth/Decay, and Sustenance/Mutation are opposing pairs, while Sapience isn't opposed by anything (except, perhaps, itself). Those seven categories cover pretty much any effect you might want to make, and 7 categories for 14 sites means you can have two different takes on each one (maybe one life-focused and one time-focused, but not necessarily); for instance, one Decay site could be all fungus themed and focus on a "circle of life" sort of decay, while the other could be full of zombies and crumbling ruins and other remnants of a long-gone decadent civilization and focus on a "how the mighty have fallen" sort of decay.

That's pretty good. But the pairings mean you would have to two different takes on the same things.
To give more of a reference my campaign world basically sits in the cradle of life where the old ones (gods/titans) first created new life in their image, using 14 nodes of power each with a magic/power pertaining to an aspect of life.
These 14 are spread around a 2500km diameter 'crater'. The nearer one comes to each node the more if its influence one sees. Eg. Approaching the growth node one would expect to find green meadows, possibly larger creatures. On the other hand its opposing node will have ruins, zombies, a barren bleakness feel. The above mentioned vigour node could have a long lasting civilisation at its core while its polar opposite could be home to tribal peoples, even cavemen. Perhaps the nutriention could just be split between a node where everything is food for something else its opposing node sitting in a vast ocean/lake where water is the theme. (I have this stargate idea where the nodes can be traveled between and love the idea of dropping my pcs literally into a vaste expanse of water.

I've even thought that the nodes could have an influence on abilities such that whilst in the vigour node one might get more intelligent in the decay node less strong.

Man_Over_Game
2019-03-01, 03:11 PM
For reference, just so that we can more easily find where there are gaps in the current "school" system, here are the 8 schools (at least, for DnD 5e).

Abjuration: Shielding, protection, anti-magic, anti-planar. Emphasis on denial over anything else.
Conjuration: Matter creation, summoning, planar magic. It's all about creating or moving something physical.
Divination: Seeing how things truly are.
Enchantment: Manipulation of the mind.
Evocation: Energy creation/manipulation. Most healing and fire spells fall into this category.
Illusion: Light manipulation, some mind manipulation. My theory is that it's all about using the Shadowfel to create pseudo-objects that appear real to us.
Necromancy: Life/soul Manipulation. Reviving people and raising the dead fall under the same type of magic. One, however, requires a willing soul and the other requires no soul at all.
Transmutation: Matter manipulation. Making the world around you shaped in your image.

A few of them seem redundant (Transmutation, Conjuration and Evocation have a lot of overlap), but they're distinct enough to deserve their own place.
If I had to wager what needed to be added, I'd probably add some kind of School of Potential. That is, a school about things that COULD be. Change the future by knowing what is supposed to happen, or becoming more powerful by knowing what you could be in a universe without your flaws, or showing an enemy their own demise to cripple them. Cause weapons to rust, men to age, or gain enlightenment to a problem that you wouldn't have solved until much later.

noob
2019-03-01, 03:31 PM
For reference, just so that we can more easily find where there are gaps in the current "school" system, here are the 8 schools (at least, for DnD 5e).

Abjuration: Shielding, protection, anti-magic, anti-planar. Emphasis on denial over anything else.
Conjuration: Matter creation, summoning, planar magic. It's all about creating or moving something physical.
Divination: Seeing how things truly are.
Enchantment: Manipulation of the mind.
Evocation: Energy creation/manipulation. Most healing and fire spells fall into this category.
Illusion: Light manipulation, some mind manipulation. My theory is that it's all about using the Shadowfel to create pseudo-objects that appear real to us.
Necromancy: Life/soul Manipulation. Reviving people and raising the dead fall under the same type of magic. One, however, requires a willing soul and the other requires no soul at all.
Transmutation: Matter manipulation. Making the world around you shaped in your image.

A few of them seem redundant (Transmutation, Conjuration and Evocation have a lot of overlap), but they're distinct enough to deserve their own place.
If I had to wager what needed to be added, I'd probably add some kind of School of Potential. That is, a school about things that COULD be. Change the future by knowing what is supposed to happen, or becoming more powerful by knowing what you could be in a universe without your flaws, or showing an enemy their own demise to cripple them. Cause weapons to rust, men to age, or gain enlightenment to a problem that you wouldn't have solved until much later.

So divination + transmutation but based on possibilities?
Or you should rename divination to something like vision since divination is a name that suggests it is about seeing the future then after that renaming you would need to move some divination spells like augury in your new school.

Man_Over_Game
2019-03-01, 03:43 PM
So divination + transmutation but based on possibilities?

Kinda, yeah. Enchantment would be similar, too, but Enchantment focuses heavily on forcing things to be different. For example, Zone of Truth doesn't make you an honest person, it forces you to be honest. Enchantment is all about rewriting what's there, and doesn't leave much room for buff spells.

In fact, most of our "buff" spells are things that modify physics rather than the person, with things like Fly, Haste, or Elemental Weapon.

I could see spells like Bless, Bane, and Heroism be moved over to this new school, along with some other things that have some interesting mechanics.
Like a high level spell that lets you place an 'echo' of yourself at a location, and dying within the next minute instead has you respawn at your 'echo'.
Or spending your Reaction to grant you Temporary Hitpoints against an attack (like a Cleric's version of Shield).
Or a Bonus Action Concentration spell that causes either the next attack you make that misses, or the next attack that hits you, to be rerolled (Because you actually just gained foresight in how you failed).

Stuff like that.

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-03-01, 09:04 PM
So polymorph any object would be in vigor(can make objects alive), growth(can grow an improve creatures), sapience(can grant sapience to creatures and objects that did not have it),mutation(can make things very different in a value neutral way) and decay(can weaken or diminish things)

Nah, PaO would just be a Mutation spell. Growth and Decay aren't "spells about literally anything that has a mechanical benefit or drawback," they're about taking a certain aspect of something and making it more or less of that thing. Greater magic weapon and enlarge weapon are Growth (adding to/enhancing the weapon), curse of impending blades and unluck are Decay (reducing/impeding the weapon), and adamantine weapon and align weapon are Mutation (changing its material or adding on a new property), if that makes sense.

Vigor, meanwhile, is about making things alive in the animate dead/liveoak/raise dead/etc. sense, and Sapience can grant intelligence in the awaken/fox's cunning/etc. sense, neither of which PaO does. Turning a stone statue into a golem would involve Vigor magic and teaching that golem how to think and speak would involve Sapience magic, but turning rocks into humans would involve Mutation magic.

Basically, Mutation is for spells that involve a quantum leap from one thing to a very different thing, while Growth, Decay, and Sapience are for spells that leave the basic nature of the thing the same but improve, worsen, or control its existing properties.


That's pretty good. But the pairings mean you would have to two different takes on the same things.[
[...]
I've even thought that the nodes could have an influence on abilities such that whilst in the vigour node one might get more intelligent in the decay node less strong.

When you say you "have to" have two different takes on the same thing, you make it sound like a bad thing. :smallwink:

The secondary effects for the nodes sounds like a fun idea, and if you're having trouble thinking of school themes one way to convey two different takes on a given school would be to come up with two cool and different secondary effects. Growth, for instance, might have mountains full of huge animals and the party would be similarly made bigger/stronger/hardier/etc. when they go there, and a jungle or bog full of choking vines and such and the party finds that every bit of wooden gear they own spontaneously sprouts leaves and flowers. And so forth for the others.


A few of them seem redundant (Transmutation, Conjuration and Evocation have a lot of overlap), but they're distinct enough to deserve their own place.

There's actually no overlap between Conjuration and Evocation if you put Conjuration (Creation) stuff back in Evocation where it belongs and where it was before 3e--and the same with giving Conjuration (Healing) back to Necromancy--and little overlap between Evocation and Transmutation when you keep in mind that Evocation can create matter but not really shape existing matter and while Transmutation can shape existing material but not create it (barring the violation of conservation of mass inherent in shapeshifting).


If I had to wager what needed to be added, I'd probably add some kind of School of Potential. That is, a school about things that COULD be. Change the future by knowing what is supposed to happen, or becoming more powerful by knowing what you could be in a universe without your flaws, or showing an enemy their own demise to cripple them. Cause weapons to rust, men to age, or gain enlightenment to a problem that you wouldn't have solved until much later.

That's not too much of a gap; your first three and last examples could fall under Divination (though the second is a bit of a stretch) and rusting and aging could be Transmutation or Necromancy. But yes, temporal magic is underserved by the existing schools, which is why I tend to pull in Chronomancy from 2e in a bunch of my games as I mentioned above.

noob
2019-03-02, 04:26 AM
Nah, PaO would just be a Mutation spell. Growth and Decay aren't "spells about literally anything that has a mechanical benefit or drawback," they're about taking a certain aspect of something and making it more or less of that thing. Greater magic weapon and enlarge weapon are Growth (adding to/enhancing the weapon), curse of impending blades and unluck are Decay (reducing/impeding the weapon), and adamantine weapon and align weapon are Mutation (changing its material or adding on a new property), if that makes sense.

Vigor, meanwhile, is about making things alive in the animate dead/liveoak/raise dead/etc. sense, and Sapience can grant intelligence in the awaken/fox's cunning/etc. sense, neither of which PaO does. Turning a stone statue into a golem would involve Vigor magic and teaching that golem how to think and speak would involve Sapience magic, but turning rocks into humans would involve Mutation magic.

Basically, Mutation is for spells that involve a quantum leap from one thing to a very different thing, while Growth, Decay, and Sapience are for spells that leave the basic nature of the thing the same but improve, worsen, or control its existing properties.



When you say you "have to" have two different takes on the same thing, you make it sound like a bad thing. :smallwink:

The secondary effects for the nodes sounds like a fun idea, and if you're having trouble thinking of school themes one way to convey two different takes on a given school would be to come up with two cool and different secondary effects. Growth, for instance, might have mountains full of huge animals and the party would be similarly made bigger/stronger/hardier/etc. when they go there, and a jungle or bog full of choking vines and such and the party finds that every bit of wooden gear they own spontaneously sprouts leaves and flowers. And so forth for the others.



There's actually no overlap between Conjuration and Evocation if you put Conjuration (Creation) stuff back in Evocation where it belongs and where it was before 3e--and the same with giving Conjuration (Healing) back to Necromancy--and little overlap between Evocation and Transmutation when you keep in mind that Evocation can create matter but not really shape existing matter and while Transmutation can shape existing material but not create it (barring the violation of conservation of mass inherent in shapeshifting).



That's not too much of a gap; your first three and last examples could fall under Divination (though the second is a bit of a stretch) and rusting and aging could be Transmutation or Necromancy. But yes, temporal magic is underserved by the existing schools, which is why I tend to pull in Chronomancy from 2e in a bunch of my games as I mentioned above.
Remove the value neutral part of the description of mutation then because polymorph any object is value neutral only for very specific use but most of the time it is not value neutral.

Also PAO can keep the target near identical and weaken it: for example you cast pao on an human to turn it into an human with the same appearance now the target have straight 10 instead of the 12 and 16 it had for its stats.

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-03-02, 10:51 AM
Remove the value neutral part of the description of mutation then because polymorph any object is value neutral only for very specific use but most of the time it is not value neutral.

Also PAO can keep the target near identical and weaken it: for example you cast pao on an human to turn it into an human with the same appearance now the target have straight 10 instead of the 12 and 16 it had for its stats.

Substitute "value-neutral" with "incomparable benefits" or "without purely numerical increases or decreases" or whatever else implies "this spell might make you grow an extra arm but it won't give you a Str bonus," then. :smallamused:

KyleG
2019-03-11, 02:34 PM
So Rephrasing this now that I have had some more thoughts.

I wondering if the Official Clerical Domains, Schools of Magic could be together made into just 14 Areas or even pairs. I don't want to make a lot of changes to the status quo but 14 is an important number of my campaign world and This magical system is supposed to represent all that is required to create life when you get the exact right mix of all the elements. The life/death domains could be combined as one of these 14 or 1 pair of the 14, School of Illusion and Domain of Trickery one and the same perhaps?

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-03-11, 04:02 PM
Assuming you don't want to stick with the strong life/time association, sure, they probably could.

One potential approach is to take each of the eight schools of magic, split it in half, and figure out some associated domains for each, giving you 16 areas, and then cut out two that are redundant or too narrow and see if the resulting set of 14 works for you. For instance:

Existing SchoolSplit SchoolExample Domains
AbjurationProtectionBalance, Community
AbjurationMagicMysticism, Rune
ConjurationCreationArtifice, Craft
ConjurationPlanesCelestial, Portal
DivinationKnowledgeHerald, Inquisition
DivinationFateLuck, Oracle
EnchantmentThoughtMental, Truth
EnchantmentEmotionDream, Wrath
EvocationElementsBlackwater, Metal
EvocationEnergySun, Force
IllusionPerceptionMoon, Trickery
IllusionShadow
NecromancyLifeHealing, Renewal
NecromancyDeathRepose, Deathbound
TransmutationBeastsAnimal, Scalykind
TransmutationShaping

Just in the process of trying to fill out the table with sample domains, it looks like there are two split schools that are obviated by the others: Shadow, which is mostly covered by either Creation (for "fake objects" spells like dark way or simulacrum) or Energy (for "solid illusions" spells like shadow evocation or wall of gloom, and Shaping, which is mostly covered by either Beasts (for "turn into creatures" spells like animal shapes or bite of the werebear) or Elements (for "sculpt inanimate matter" spells like control water or move earth).

So take those out and that leaves you with a relatively comprehensive set of 14. They don't really fit neatly into pairs, though, so if you wanted a paired setup you'd want to come up with a different method.

KyleG
2019-03-11, 10:56 PM
I think my questioning is on the wrong track. instead of focusing on the magic system that exists for the purpose of manipulating the world the characters normally interact, this is a magic system that encompasses that energy across each pairing.
So I have come up with 3 of my 7 pairs that I suddenly feel really good about. The magic schools and domains all contribute to each of the pairs some in more ways than others but it means I don't have to try and pidgeonhole the existing system into this magic.

Here is what I have now:
1. Positive - negative (there is a duality to this world, a mirrorverse that exists which tugs on that thread.
2. Possibility - Inevitability (an aspect of time, what was, will be and could be, perfectly balanced this leas to life)
3. Growth - Decay (all life ends as all life begins and life starts to end even as it begins)

4. Physicality - Mentality (Im not as certain of the words for this one, its and expression of mind and matter both aspects of creation)
5. Outer - Inner (I think this is about energy)

6. Momentum - stasis (don't like the words and might be too like growth decay)

7. ?????

Indigo Knight
2019-03-12, 10:02 AM
4. Physicality - Mentality (Im not as certain of the words for this one, its and expression of mind and matter both aspects of creation)
That would be Material - Spirit, chief. Or, you could use Ego, like the psions do.



5. Outer - Inner (I think this is about energy)

6. Momentum - stasis (don't like the words and might be too like growth decay)

7. ?????

Well, energy is energy. It doesn't really have an opposite. At least, I can't think of one.
I have trouble understanding how you decide where to dot the line for declaring couples. For example, you have Growth and Decay, but they're both are subservient to Physicality.
Otherwise, I would have tossed in Speed along with Location and Thoughts.

KyleG
2019-03-15, 01:12 PM
I was thinking along the lines of source of energy, from within or an external source.

And physicality and growth are distinctly different. Growth-decay being about change, physicality being about the physical aspects of a creature.