Ancestral Relic, Archivists, and Praybooks

[Bphill561]

The plan is to use the Ancestral Relic feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds to fill out an Archivist's praybook. In short,

1) Archivists can cast any divine spell if they can find a divine scroll to copy over into their spell/praybook.
2) Ancestral Relic lets you enchant one specific item without crafting feats or other requirements. The max value of the item is equal to half you Expected Wealth per level and takes 1 day per 1000 gold to enchant.
3) Finding rare scrolls can be limiting for some campaigns, this feat can bypass the need to search for hard to find scrolls.

So the item would be a masterwork praybook with a roll out scroll. Being a masterwork tool it could grant a +2 to spellcraft for copying scrolls. You could pray for 1 day to add a scroll with a number of spells up to 1000gp, then spend 1 day per spell copying the scrolls over into your pray book. This would eliminate the scroll value. Later the entire book can be enchanted into a Boccob's Blessed Book (assuming the book is not just for wizards), which has no cost for transcribing spells into it.

The rub is the max value is the total price of the item, not just enchantments. The SRD states "Captured spellbooks can be sold for a gp amount equal to one-half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within (that is, one-half of 100 gp per page of spells). A spellbook entirely filled with spells (that is, with one hundred pages of spells inscribed in it) is worth 5,000 gp. "

So the questions may not all be answerable, but here they are.

1) For a regular praybook with spells, would those spells have to be included in the Ancestral Relic's Value? I would think yes, which will reek havoc on enchanting. Starting, an archivist would have 15 pages of spells with only using the Player's handbook spells available (all level 0 cleric spells and at least 3 level 1 spells). That number will just keep increasing just from leveling at 100gp a page. Although again technically the free leveling spells do not have inscribing costs.

2) Once the book is a Boccob's Blessed Book, does the books market value increase with more spells transcribed in it. Technically by the SRD passage above alone, it does not since there is no inscribing costs. Is there any other relevant rules for spell book prices? It would be unfortunate if a 1000 page Blessed Book had an effective value of 100,000 gp just for the spells in it (even if you did not have to pay those costs).

3) It would be interesting to pray the spells indirectly skipping the scroll step, is this possible? Ancestral relic is not like other crafting feats, it just talks about praying to increase the item's value. For example, others on the boards have suggested changing a steel masterwork item over to adamantine. Even if the inscribed spells add value, by level 3 the scrolls cost more than the standard page costs anyway.

Any suggestions or comments? The easiest way I guess would be to not have the scroll be part of the book, but instead be an encased scroll on a chain (necklace slot). Rinse and repeat scrolls. The necklace could later be enchanted as a Necklace of Phantom Library which is a more expensive Blessed book, but could be done in later levels if the transcribed spells add market value.

Other neat tricks, since you can cast divine spells make the item a relic (of the Sanctify Relic variety). Cutting a spell slot early on can greater reduce the items cost.

[Saintheart]

Key assumption this exploit rests on: that 'enchanting' something includes transcribing a spell.

I'm not certain that this necessarily holds. Transcription of a spell =/= Scribe Scroll. Per the PHB, materials for writing a spell into a spellbook cost 100 gp per page, but that's just the material costs, it doesn't mean the spellbook's value per se increases. I get it, the argument is that because the thing's value has increased it therefore has to hold spells to actually hold said value, but I think you'd have to convince a DM that the writing in a spellbook is itself magical or holds magic in itself - yes, a transcribed scroll disappears, but that could arguably only be the spell expiring, not the transporting of the spell with its power into the spellbook.

It is a gorgeously flavourful idea, though. You have your Dad's old spellbook which seems to have faded and gone blank, but as you sit and pray to the gods the writing suddenly starts to come back like invisible ink with lemon poured onto it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unless it's a spellbook of Corncob Boccob, a spellbook (or in this case, prayerbook) is not a magic item and cannot be enhanced via Ancestral Relic.

Can archivists use the Boccob's blessed book thingy as a prayerbook? I'm not sure if they can, since the book specifies wizards only.

But even if they can, the benefit of the BBB is that you don't have to spend money to scribe scrolls, which negates the benefits of Ancestral Relic anyway.

[Bphill561]

Key assumption this exploit rests on: that 'enchanting' something includes transcribing a spell.

I'm not certain that this necessarily holds. Transcription of a spell =/= Scribe Scroll. Per the PHB, materials for writing a spell into a spellbook cost 100 gp per page, but that's just the material costs, it doesn't mean the spellbook's value per se increases. I get it, the argument is that because the thing's value has increased it therefore has to hold spells to actually hold said value, but I think you'd have to convince a DM that the writing in a spellbook is itself magical or holds magic in itself - yes, a transcribed scroll disappears, but that could arguably only be the spell expiring, not the transporting of the spell with its power into the spellbook.

It appears you jumped right to question 3 and mixed the other 2 in partially. I agree that spell transcription into a spell book has nothing to do with the scribe scroll feat. A magic scroll case with attached scroll could clearly have "scroll" spells added to it without exploit, but what is postulated in question 3 maybe is an exploit. But we have two questions here, do spell books have market value based on the spells in them and how ancestral relic works.

Spell books based on the SRD seem to have market value that increases with each spell since it effects sell price, but it does not clearly state that it is a Market price (looking for any additional rules hidden away). The SRD states under Selling Loot "In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price." Price=market price? I am focused on Market value because ancestral relic states "This requires a sacrifice of valuable items worth the difference between the market price of the magic item your relic will become and the market price of your current relic." Market value of a +1 sword is not 2,000 gp, but includes the mastercrafting and weapon cost. That full market value is part of the items value cap for ancestral relic. So does a magic book that also acts as a spellbook have additional market value based on the spells inscribed? By SRD it looks like it does, but BBB complicates this with no inscription cost so it maybe different for a standard spell book verse BBB. Again this one is important because Ancestral relic spell book would lose a good portion of its market cap if inscribed spells have market value (regardless if you had to pay for them or not).

Then you get to the second question of how ancestral relic works. Clearly the final item produced must be magical, but this is not mundane or magic item crafting rules. Ancestral relic does not bar you from changing an steel masterwork sword into an adamantine +1 sword. It also does not explicitly say you can do this, but is used in examples for ancestral relic weapons on several posts. This part is unclear in my opinion, but if possible could be applied to a magic spell book with increased market value. I am also not certain that this necessarily holds, and it does not have to. I was mainly looking at reducing spell transcription times and it maybe too rules ambiguous to attempt.


Unless it's a spellbook of Corncob Boccob, a spellbook (or in this case, prayerbook) is not a magic item and cannot be enhanced via Ancestral Relic.

Can archivists use the Boccob's blessed book thingy as a prayerbook? I'm not sure if they can, since the book specifies wizards only.

But even if they can, the benefit of the BBB is that you don't have to spend money to scribe scrolls, which negates the benefits of Ancestral Relic anyway.

Yeah, you caught my one assumption with Boccob's. This could just as easily work in a wizard build though for acquiring rare spells outside the SRD if you DM is strict. But since I will be making the item, I think I would be able to craft one with a different class requirement or a divine version since Archivist states its praybook works like a wizards spell book (DM dependent).

Ancestral relic can enhance a mundane item as long as the final product is magical. It does not even have to be BBB, you can enchant the book as a slotless item with whatever properties you wish or pick magic books in the Magic item compendium if your DM is restrictive. Step one, make it item that casts consecrate with a sufficient duration that you can pray to enhance your ancestral relic on the go.

Again I believe you are jumping right to question 3? Assuming it could be done, which I am not advocating but inquiring, BBB is not a waste at all. If BBB has no increased market value with spells, you could pray everything in at once when you make it (I would not advocate this). If BBB has increased market value with spells, scrolls of 3rd level and above cost more than 100gp per level. So if you don't have to pay 375gp to get a 3rd level scroll to copy, but have to pray for the 300gp (3 pages at 100gp a page) of increased market value; you save money, inscribing time, and any spell material/xp costs. Further BBB gives you additional protections on the book and 1000 pages. You would not want to have a regular book fill up at 100 pages and end your trick.

Overall though, maybe I should not have dived into question 3. The most important questions are 1 and 2 as it effects ancestral relics market cap. I like the idea of the relic also being a spell/pray book, but the two can be divorced if necessary. 3 was an idea to save time. If you pray for scroll with 3 spells totaling under 1000 gold, you need 1 day for pray and 3 more days for transcription. This could be horribly exploited though if it was determine you could put the spells directly and BBB had no increased market value with spells in it.

[Bphill561]

Any more rules help on spell books and market value? Short of any additional rules that I did not already post, I think I have my RAW answer on 1 and 2.