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View Full Version : Optimization Creating a bunker-buster effect



martixy
2019-02-21, 08:29 AM
I've been sitting here thinking on how to make an effective Kamehameha so that I can explode things in the most spectacular manner possible.

There's two schools of thought here: Navigating around obstacles or going through them.

On the first one, surprisingly to me, I have been able to find only 1 spell with an area of spread, as opposed to the usual burst for such blasty spells - none other than our humble Fireball. Thankfully, we have a way around that - Sculpt spell transforms any area spell into a spread.

Which means we can employ some spells devoid of Fireball's glaring deficiencies - at the very least, Blast of Flame (Sor/Wiz 4) is SR: No(Acid Storm too, but it's higher level). Other, more interesting options are Doom Scarabs, which is SR: (Effectively) No and Will half, and Hail of Stone which is SR: No, Save: None (but casting time 1 round, oddly).

Now, the spread approach has the obvious problem that total cover stops it in its tracks. And even if you destroy the cover, it has done it's job in protecting what's behind it.

We need a better way.

The ideal approach is to go THROUGH things.

The good news is that we are not without recourse.

There is a spell, exactly one spell I have found. It is called Cyclonic Blast, and it penetrates barriers, continuing unimpeded provided you deal enough damage to them.
The bad new is, it has problems, many problems, some fixable, some not so much.
1. Its area is 120 ft. line. This can be fixed with sculpt spell.
2. Objects bigger than large take half damage. Fixed by bumping the spell's damage.
3. Reflex Half. Or... technically, I suppose, if we, maybe, kinda, sorta allow that Kingdoms of Kalamar feat.
4. SR: Yes.

Now, if we give that spell the TO treatment - Reserves of Strength to break the cap, Arcane thesis, Incantatrix and, CL and metamagic shenanigans galore - twin, maximize, empower, ocular, split ray, energy admixture, we can bump damage up the wazoo - easily in the hundreds of damage dice.
(Of special note is energy admixture. The spell has the air descriptor, which isn't an energy type. We have a couple of options: 1. Elven Spell Lore feat from PHB2, to change the type, or Snowcasting from Frostburn to add the Cold descriptor -> Energy substitution -> Admixture. We probably wanna deal Acid or Sonic damage, since objects don't reduce it.)

If we do our job well nothing, likely not even a solid 5 foot cube of adamantium will have more hitpoints than our spell deals. Which means that we can target a volume of space and vaporize everything inside it.
(5 ft is 60 inches x 40 hp/inch = 2400 hp, we'd need 400d6. 400/2(admixture)/1.5(empower) = CL134 or thereabouts? Twin works more ablatively, since they count as separate instances of damage, but could still prove useful. Ocular and split ray and chain might be useful too. Realistically, you're unlikely to encounter solid barriers of adamantine this thick.)

The 2 glaring problems, of course, are creatures with evasion and/or spell resistance, and anti-magic fields, which break line of effect for our spell.
For the Reflex save, there is one thing that might prove useful: The Spell Barrage teamwork benefit form DMG2. If you can somehow get a bunch of other Reflex-half saves in the same area, you can penalize its inhabitant's reflex saves enough to get something done. At the very least twinned gets you a -2 right on your turn.

I'm open to suggestions and alternative approaches/spells.

Anthrowhale
2019-02-21, 09:15 AM
AMF can be penetrated using Invoke Magic and/or Initiate of Mystra.

SR can be penetrated by a Dweomerkeeper using Supernatural Spell.

martixy
2019-02-21, 09:34 AM
SR, I feel we can cover with CL, and eschew wasting precious Intantatrix levels.

Initiate of Mystra, I had completely forgotten about.

unseenmage
2019-02-21, 12:20 PM
Sculpt Spell Disintegrate?

martixy
2019-02-21, 12:27 PM
Sculpt Spell Disintegrate?


You can modify an area spell

Disintegrate is a ray.

I'd love for a way to make ray spells into area spells. It would allow chaining area spells - that'd be neat.

unseenmage
2019-02-21, 12:37 PM
Disintegrate is a ray.

I'd love for a way to make ray spells into area spells. It would allow chaining area spells - that'd be neat.

I remember there being other spells that disintegrate or have disintegrate like rider effects.


Alternatively, would the sculpt and shape spells for stone or wood work to make it seem like you went through a substsnce?

martixy
2019-02-22, 03:10 AM
Well, there's Black blade of disaster - it's Level 9. Can't remember any others.

On shape: Together? Arcane fusion or something? It could work. It'd still be rather situaitonal. And Wood shape is a Druid spell.

ben-zayb
2019-02-22, 04:38 AM
IIRC there is a magic item that can turn a ray into a cone. AFB, but it's something like Lens of Rat Widening

martixy
2019-02-22, 05:21 AM
IIRC there is a magic item that can turn a ray into a cone. AFB, but it's something like Lens of Rat Widening

SWEEEET

I wonder how comboing with other metamagics is supposed to work.

I.e. how does a sorcerer apply metamagic feats. Because I can see a strong argument for you casting the spell, and it leaving your hands, with all the metamagics already applied, and then passing through the lens, a which point things are out of your hands, metaphorically and literally, including any ability to sculpt.

Then again, if we assume we can metamagic a spell AFTER it has passed through the lens. It gives us new and exciting options.

It opens up Ocular Spell as another avenue achieving greater efficiency. Also opens up Disintegrate as our core spell. The only issue is, it doesn't pierce cover. I wish there was like a "piercing spell" metamatic. Or just a core rule, that if you do enough damage with an effect like that, the damage affects what's behind as well.

So lets see...
The lens says that the spell must be an energy spell to deal damage to objects, and they still make their save automatically.
While disintegrate has the benefit of having the best damage efficiency at 2d6 per caster level, combust has the benefit of not offering a save. Guess one which wins.

So Ocular makes combust into a ray. Range 60 ft.
The lens makes it into a cone, burst, range 60 ft. area 60 ft.
Sculpt makes it into a 20 ft. spread, range 60 ft.
We can further widen that to 40 ft. spread.
If we use split ray before the lens, we end up with 2 (ocular) split (4) twinned (8) maximized empowered acid substituted admixed area combusts. So technically, even if the spells don't pierce cover, we can still potentially hit something behind 7 layers of cover.

All for the price of a full-round action.

I'm open for further optimizations.

unseenmage
2019-02-22, 07:50 AM
Well, there's Black blade of disaster - it's Level 9. Can't remember any others.

On shape: Together? Arcane fusion or something? It could work. It'd still be rather situaitonal. And Wood shape is a Druid spell.
Sphere of Ultimate Destruction is... also level 9.

Rusting spells might give similar effect situationally too.

I usually play artificers and play at a table that allows research of custom spell versions of stuff so spell source isnt my strong suite, apologies.

tiercel
2019-02-23, 12:46 AM
IIRC there is a magic item that can turn a ray into a cone. AFB, but it's something like Lens of Rat Widening

Dude, what did you do to my rat familiar? Not cool! Now I’m going to have to put him on Rat Weight Watchers and get him more exercise wheels and teach the other rats about not body-shaming....

:wink:

But more seriously, yes, the Lens of Ray Widening is from Lords of Madness, but only works 9 times per item — which is still plenty horrifying when a beholder comes at you with one of these bad boys.

Ruethgar
2019-02-23, 12:40 PM
Disintegrate is a ray.

I'd love for a way to make ray spells into area spells. It would allow chaining area spells - that'd be neat.

Ray Burst metamagic makes it a 30ft radius burst.

Unavenger
2019-02-23, 02:55 PM
"A cylinder-shaped spell ignores any obstructions within its area." Acid Rain has Save: None, SR: No; you should use consecrate spell or corrupt spell to make it deal some divine power damage. You mentioned hail of stone: it's another cylinder, not a burst, emanation or spread. There are a few others; the humble Ice Storm from the PHB deals a bit of magical bludgeoning damage which is very hard to resist; flame strike of course also works, as there exists, to my knowledge, one way of resisting divine power damage in the game. Control Winds and Sandstorm have large enough areas and durations to ruin people's days. Stone Storm allows no save, but the damage is subject to DR. Vortex of Teeth is strong against people in a bunker, but allows SR. Whirlwind of Teeth, unlike the vortex, allows a save, but it's notable for being movable.

Another option is to fire returning brilliant energy weapons straight through the walls, mind you.

Silva Stormrage
2019-02-23, 02:58 PM
Ray Burst metamagic makes it a 30ft radius burst.

Where is this from?

tiercel
2019-02-23, 06:07 PM
Where is this from?

Dragon Annual 5, apparently? I don't have the actual source myself, just citation I found.

Ruethgar
2019-02-23, 06:10 PM
Where is this from?

It was from a Dragon Magazine(of course). Unfortunately I'm unable to locate it with a quick search. The same magazine had Ray Extension(repeat ray on next action... such as a free action) if that helps the search.

Edit: Damn the ninjas!

MisterKaws
2019-02-23, 06:38 PM
Where is this from?

According to a quick DuckDuckGo check, it's from a 2000s Dragon Magazine, so...